Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[JonathanCole]

Originally Posted by Pericles

All highly desirable of course, but these are claims, or another word could be "opinions".
While it is possible that you are correct in your "opinion", if you, are then the executives of this publicly traded company valued at $250 million or so, are liable for prosecution for providing materially misleading statements to the public and their stockholders.

The facts are that as yet, these units apparently do not work as stated. That's the point. A dream for some, a nightmare for others. It is not necessary to wait for when and if these units become available, probably at prices that only nation states can afford, fully electric cruising catamarans can be built right now.
While its possible that your "opinion" is correct, it is also possible that they actually do work as stated. According to recent reports, a 2 megawatt battery pack from Altairnano has been delivered on schedule at $.050 per rated watt/hr of storage or $500/kwHr. In a battery that has been tested out to 15,000 deep discharge cycles, and capable of utilizing the full rated capacity, that would be a cost of approximately $0.03 per kwHr over the life of the battery. Compare that to L-16 lead acid batteries which at a 50% use factor can last for perhaps 2000 cycles and cost about $300/ per rated kwHr with the 50% use factor. Comes out to about $0.15/kwHr. 5 times more expensive over the life of the battery.

By the way I have already engineered my electric catamaran and am hoping to build it in NZ.

Until then, I shall not compromise and will not own a boat. That would be plain stupid and so is waiting for Altairnano. Proof of that 20 year warranty will not happen in my lifetime.
Pericles

Now you are inventing your facts as I recall no mention anywhere of a 20 year warranty.

And, speaking for myself, I can only fervently hope that these guys at Altairnano succeed at what they are trying to do, because if they do it is a major breakthrough that will change the entire world of energy and all the related technologies including boats.

[Pericles]

Jonathan,

I wish you every success with your electric catamaran. One day we might arrange to meet one another in mid ocean half way around the world and share a cup or two.

As for misleading claims, political parties do it all the time.

About the warranty business, you mentioned that Altairnano claimed a 20 year life in their specifications released to the public. I would naturally expect to see that claim supported by a warranty, wouldn't you?

On matters of Altairnano's lithium ion costs, I can only refer you to Nigel Calder's opinion on page 107 in http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ (Not surprisingly, it's also very expensive!)

Anyway, it's all yet to happen. Nigel Calder is going with Odyssey batteries, I'm looking at Valence and in 10 years, who knows? Death & taxes, the only two constants.

Pericles

[FAST FRED]

you mentioned that Altairnano claimed a 20 year life in their specifications released to the public. I would naturally expect to see that claim supported by a warranty, wouldn't you?

Does a Rolls Royce come with a 20 year warranty, even though many have a 50+ year life?

A 5 year warranty , on a 20 year expected life would be fine.

"In a battery that has been tested out to 15,000 deep discharge cycles, and capable of utilizing the full rated capacity,"

Great in an everyday used scenerio, for most boaters , it would be decades worth of battery life , in a recreational boat the batts could perhaps outlive the boat?

FF

[Pericles]

As part of your correspondent's unyielding and fearless vision quest for the facts about batteries for boaters, I unearthed a nugget from December last, which bears scrutiny here at the forum. At the Electric Vehicle Symposium in Anaheim CA, Valence Technology introduced their new line of large-format lithium ion batteries designed for use in electric and hybrid vehicles. The three comments are revealing.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/12...tter/#comments

Reactions yesterday to the CARB announcement last week are available at.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03...ug-in-hybrids/

What does all this mean? As far as I can discern, it's not possible to obtain the price per Kw. from A123, Altairnano or Valence Technology, all of whom appear to be using the same technology, (Page 3)

http://www.valence.com/assets/pdf/evs_faq.pdf

If the prices are of the level that a Resuscitation Trolley should be close at hand whilst being told the figures, then a 5 years warranty will not be enough.

However, the Synchronizing Inverter article by Nigel Calder on page 74 in

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080405/

suggests that Odyssey batteries could fulfill our needs and continue to be with us for a good while longer.

Good luck,

Pericles

[Pericles]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovonic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_boat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium...sphate_battery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors

Pericles

[JonathanCole]

Pericles wrote:
"What does all this mean? As far as I can discern, it's not possible to obtain the price per Kw. from A123, Altairnano or Valence Technology, all of whom appear to be using the same technology, "

I have gotten prices per kwHr from Altairnano. The price that they quoted me last summer was 4 x what they have now announced the price for their most recent large battery delivery. They only started manufacturing in September of 2006 on a limited production scale. That means that in less than a year their costs are rapidly going down.

A123, Altairnano and Valence technology are all using lithium based batteries, but the lithium is combined with different elements giving a wide range of claimed characteristics. For uses such as a boat, I would suggest that the most important issues are safety, long-life and low cost per lifetime kwHr stored. To me it appears that the Altairnano battery has distinct advantages in these areas. But of course, these are all relatively young companies, they can fail for reasons that have nothing to do with their relative merits. Poor management, miscalculations, competitor dirty tricks, etc. The outcomes of many of the most pressing world issues may rest on the success of companies like these. May the wind always be at their backs!

[Pericles]

Hello Jonathan,

Any chance you could you post the Altairnano prices you obtained please? I emailed the European, Northern Ireland office of Valence Technology yesterday for the cost and weight of 1200 Ahrs of Epoch Lithium Phosphate power.

Odyssey battery British prices for most of the range are here.

http://www.tayna.co.uk/catalog/295/2...ies-page2.html

ODYSSEY PC2150T
12V 2150 Cranking Amps
ODYSSEY PC2150T <br />12V 2150 Cranking Amps (Odyssey Batteries - Odyssey Drycell Batteries)Specifications
Drycell Battery
Without Metal Jacket
12 Volt
94 Ah @ 20hr rate
1090 CCA
2150 Cranking Amps for 5 Seconds
200 Minute Reserve Capacity
3/8 corrosion-free stud terminal
Suitcase lifting handle
Cycle life @ 77°F 400 at 100% DOD
-40°F to 140°F Temperature Range

Dimensions(mm)
330 x 173 x 240
Price: £329.99

I waiting for the PC 2250 price.

Regards,

Pericles

[JonathanCole]

Pericles wrote: Any chance you could you post the Altairnano prices you obtained please?

Actually, as an OEM, I have signed a non-disclosure agreement with Altairnano. Since their prices are not published, I guess that means I cannot directly divulge that information. But it can be deduced from other information I have already stated. It appears that this battery is such a radical breakthrough, especially in safety, durability and power (extremely fast charge times), that they have their pick of many competing entities for the limited production that they are currently capable of. In other words their production may be sold out for the near term.

For those interested in this battery technology I am uploading publicly available information about Altairnano batteries.

[sparky_wap]

Now that we know the technology can be brought to market, we (consumers) can hope a price war will soon follow. It the technology finds mass production in the automotive and computer market, the price will drop drastically in the next few years.

I know this is off the boating topic sort of but I am interested in plug-in electric cars. My personal development of my plug-in (for charging) electric boat has sparked interest in reducing reliability on crude oil. The oil companies have been sticking it to us and it is somewhat our fault as consumers. Now, I just can't see rewarding them buy buying anymore overpriced fuel than I have to. Charge up on nuke, wind, hydro... and runs on battery...

Joe

[Pericles]

From their Q & A section.

NanoSafe battery price
Q: How much do Altairnano batteries cost?
A: Altairnano batteries are currently priced near $2.00 USD per watt hour. Altairnano expects to achieve significant price reductions over the next 18 months, resulting in a price around $1.00 USD per Wh.

http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Pericles

[masalai]

Thanks Pericles, - Good to see things happening, how does that compare with your current choice/program?

[Pericles]

Brian,

Even at $1 per watt/hour, a 1200 Ahr battery capacity would cost more than the bleedin' catamaran, as far as I can work it out. A complete non starter. Have a look at page 74 at http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080405/

As we say over here. "It's all occurring!"

Watch this space. (I must stop drinking these delicious SA wines. They doth befuddle me.)

Perry

[masalai]

A friend who I knew whilst working around Carnarvon in Western Australia, name of Ray Ellis had developed a system where we could parallel an inverter driven by 20 x 12 v batteries and the AC stage of the charging motor to drive high power requirements on the pastoral station near Gascoyne Junction. we never got to installing that stage... I don't know how, but the first part was a fantastic improvement on the 4 hour runs in the morning and evening for refrigeration & etc down to 1 hour a day recharging instead of 8 hours noise...

[Pericles]

Yep, the batteries were used as a buffer. The fuel bills went down and the life of the pastoral generator was extended as well, I guess. Replace the diesel generator with a wind powered generator and a few solar panels, the result should be the all electric sailing boat. Most of the electricity will be produced via regeneration whilst sailing, hence a large catamaran for speed and comfort. It's too much pain for an ancient mariner to sail a monohull fast enough to make the equation successful.

This is a vessel for circumnavigation. I am looking at setting off and just cruisin'.

Using Odyssey batteries from EnerSys in Wales, the Ampair wind generator and Sillette saildrives from England, the Victron inverter from Holland and the motors from Asmomarine in Denmark, the components are not hard to assemble. No need for exotic batteries.

BTW. the retracting electric motors from Gideon Goudsmit are also under consideration.

http://www.africancats.com/resources...on_ENG1467.pdf

All the best,

Perry

[colinstone]

12 x 2v 920Ah C10 (dry charged) cost me £20 each. 150 litres SG 1280 acid was another £100.