Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[boat fan]

Originally Posted by BertKu

Hi Masalai,

The problem with all of us, we don't have enough money floating around. Theoritical you can get 26% photons per m2 sunlight. But to stay with our feet on the ground , yes 16 or 17% is archievable. But there are new solarpanels on the market which goes to 40%. But they are very expensive. They have a trick, to boost the efficiency per m2. It is like your telephone line, maximum 2 kilobyte with an old modem. But now with ADSL with a trick goes 56 kilobyte. So they have come up with a trick to have some 400 watts per square meter. You have available, you said, 20 m2 = 8 kilowatt.
The problem is that most of us are broke.

Bert

Attached my first experiment with PVC pipe battery.
CDK, that is good news that your batteries seem to be of a good quality. The bad news is that it is only 1,2 Volt. While my calculations are for 1,5 Volt.
The Germans don't take it kindly if somebody sells an inferior product on the German Market.

400 watts / m2 ..wow .....so how much "more " expensive are these things ?

[BertKu]

Hi,

I have no idee how much more. I did not keep that article which I get from the Solar Energy worldforum. All what I can tell you how they do it. The photons which passes the thinfilm substrate is being reflected back. That is the reason why they apperantly are getting a higher output. It make sense.

I am so sorry I did not keep that information.

Bert

[boat fan]

Thanks will search some more...

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by boat fan

Thanks will search some more...

Oerlikon Solar AG, headquartered in Trubbach, Switzerland is focused on manufacturing equipment for the thin film processing industry. “We have trademarked our Micromorph technology,” says Chris O’Brien, head of market development in North America: “It is a method of stacking very thin film silicon layers in a way so that the overall silicon eÿciency of the PV module is up to 50% higher than it would be as a single stack of silicon layers. Advancing that technology is one of the company’s core assets. The second thing is a business model that really hadn’t been seen before in the solar industry. That is what I call the ‘factory in a box’ model,” he adds.

quoted from a solar newsletter.

Hi Boat Fan,

If they took the laboratory result of 26 % and get an 50% improvement, this will match the 40%. But maybe Oerlikon is able to tell you who has purchased their equipment to make 40% solarpanels. It could very well be from another manufacturing plant.

Bert

[boat fan]

Thank you ...fantastic.....



Yes I get the impression that this would likely be from another manufacturing plant too.I have some where to start thanks again ...very interesting....!

[Spiv]

Originally Posted by BertKu

It is a pity that the Chinese battery manufacturer insist on a minimum order for 10.000 pieces for the 8 or 9 Amperehour type D battery.
Bert

Bert,
most Chinese have their 'Minimum Order Quantity' rather high, however they all will allow a "sample" order and a "Pilot" order.
If the sample order is small sometimes they will ship it to you, others you just pay for the shipping.
Once you are happy with the sample, you then make the 'pilot' order of say 2~3~500 pieces. This time you pay for the goods (at the MOQ price) and shipping.
If the one manufacturer you are dealing with doesn't offer this terms, tell him you will look for another.

I tend to believe that soldering is the best solution for trouble free operation.
What about making flat 'pizzas' of the required number, and stack them?
it would still be simple to replace a 'pizza' with a spare one and then find the faulty battery.
A powerful soldering iron would make it easy to replace ded cells.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Spiv

Bert,
most Chinese have their 'Minimum Order Quantity' rather high, however they all will allow a "sample" order and a "Pilot" order.
If the sample order is small sometimes they will ship it to you, others you just pay for the shipping.
Once you are happy with the sample, you then make the 'pilot' order of say 2~3~500 pieces. This time you pay for the goods (at the MOQ price) and shipping.
If the one manufacturer you are dealing with doesn't offer this terms, tell him you will look for another.

Thank you Stefano, I will discuss a pilot order with them.

Bert

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Spiv

Bert,
I tend to believe that soldering is the best solution for trouble free operation.
What about making flat 'pizzas' of the required number, and stack them?
it would still be simple to replace a 'pizza' with a spare one and then find the faulty battery.
A powerful soldering iron would make it easy to replace ded cells.

Hi Stefano,

Yes I do agree with you, that soldering is possible the optimum way to go, if one can connect a soldering iron on board of a boat. But for me to make this project a succes, I need to work with standard AA or type C or D batteries. They are manufacturered in vast quantities and therefore more economical. Your idee of flat pizza's is a certainly a worthwile idee to follow up, but I assume that the minimum quantities are out of my boundry and also the price. But yes, if they can make it in quantities of 100 very good idee.

Bert

[srimes]

Originally Posted by BertKu

Hi Stefano,

Yes I do agree with you, that soldering is possible the optimum way to go, if one can connect a soldering iron on board of a boat.

Bert

googled "butane soldering iron" and got this link:

http://www.howardelectronics.com/butane.html

[BertKu]

Hi there,

We have had some great inputs in this NiMH project already, hereunder my way of thinking and if you disagree, hammer me. Here a recap.


a) If we use standard AA or even better, type C or D batteries, we can build up a very powerfull battery pack which could be as much as 30 Kilowatthour for an affordable price.
b) It is correct in what Porta said, that we have a contact problem, therefore I concentrate on finding a paste or a Kontakt Chemie produkt like K61 as suggested by CDK. With this paste I hope to resolve this problem and then the soldering, with consequences such as heat damage is over. Also to solder on the sea or choppie waves is not a pleasure, if a battery is gone bad.
c) Inexpensive plastic PVC pipes are a very good solution, why? As seen per drawing Fig 1 we can seal the battery pipe with some 10 or 20 batteries from salty humidity influences. We drill a hole in a plastic cork or rubber and seal an electrical wire through it. Also we mount a small pc board onto this electrical wire with a spring between it. Also anybody can make such battery pack at home for 12 , 24 or 48 Volt and for 2 , 4, 6 , or 30 kilowatthours.

PROBLEMS to solve:

a) finding conducting paste or long lasting cleaning method of battery contacts.

b) The best possbile way to mount those pipes bundled as a hugh battery
.
b1) If mounted horizontal, and one need to remove the batteries, how do we get the batteries easy out on a moving boat. Magnet and rope? yes could be a solution. (pipes are horizontal)

b2) If we mount it vertical i.e. in my case +/- 1 meter high for 48 Volt.
To drop the batteries into the vertical standing pipe may damage the contact at the bottom. Special if one uses 169 gram type D NiMH batteries.
Let them drop into the pipe with a electro magnetic magnet, yes that could be a possible solution. The cork with spring will make sure that the batteries are making proper contact.

b3) If we mount the cork up side down. i.e. we have the plus and minus at the top and the corks at the bottom.
We need to push batteries upwards into the pipe and we may not be able to guarantee proper contact. Due to the weight what now is placed onto the spring. 20 x 169 gram = 3,38kg and that needs the spring in the cork
to push back against the + and minus rail.


c) where can we find good, inexpensive AA, C or D type batteries we all can afford.

d) to make a good management system for 2000 + batteries

The photo shows you an experiment to remove and measure and test AA type NiMH batteries in a small pack. If good contact paste is found, one could consider to make a pack as per photo. The springs could substituted with some rubber bands. This in view of possible corrosion. However humudity will go into the pipes, with at present creating
unforseen problems

The ideal situation would be to use 8 - 9 Amperhour type D NiMH batteries.
With +/- 1 meter pipes 2 x 80 bundled, one would have 48 Volt 640 - 720 Amperhour i.e. 30,7 Kilowatthour Dimensions would be 105 cm x 7,6 cm x
304 cm. This could be split up in 4 battery packs of 105cm x 7,6 cm x 76 cm

Bert

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by masalai

Bert, solar panel array is limited and good for topping up or whilst at anchor... Constraints, constraints, constraints

Hi Masalai,

If I was in your shoes. I would do the following.
1) carry on building my boat and wait and see how that NiMH pipe battery project develops.
2) I would make a "Torqeedo" type propulsion from motors possible far cheaper like http://www.electricmotorsport.com/st...s_ev_parts.php
3) But make provision for an outboard petrol or diesel motor incase you cannot make it electric.
4) make provision for fuel. If not needed, use it for something else like NiMH pipe batteries
5) search for 40% solar panels or at least 25% solar panels and charge the batteries continious. Bear in mind, even with overcast you can charge your batteries, provide the panels are properly configured. If you can afford 4 kw panels, you can boat for a very long time. If you can afford only 2 kw, you take your trottle back a little.
6) Use only the noisy Genset to power the electromotor propulsion and not charging the batteries (just keep some battery power as reserve)
7) I would add 2 windbatteries to the boat. Next week when I am back from the Microprocessor seminar, I will give you a message on a special wind generator/battery I have in mind for myself.

Bert

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by srimes

googled "butane soldering iron" and got this link:

http://www.howardelectronics.com/butane.html

Hi Stefano,
Thank you so much for the link. There are some conflicting opinions whether to use heat on a battery. Like CDK wrote, it could destroy the battery and I agree with him. But never the less , that butane soldering iron is a handy tool to have around.

Bert

[Spiv]

Originally Posted by BertKu

2) I would make a "Torqeedo" type propulsion from motors possible far cheaper like http://www.electricmotorsport.com/st...s_ev_parts.php
Bert

That is a great link, I'd been wandering if there were motors out there of higher power than the one sold by Torqeedo or Re-e-power.
The Altrax DCX500 developes 16HP, is a regenerative motor and has the right shape to replace the gearbox of an outboard. All it is needed is an aluminium enclosure with the same bolting pattern of the existing gearbox, not too hard to engineer.

Now 500A seems a lot of power, how do we supply it?

[srimes]

Originally Posted by BertKu

Hi Stefano,
Thank you so much for the link. There are some conflicting opinions whether to use heat on a battery. Like CDK wrote, it could destroy the battery and I agree with him. But never the less , that butane soldering iron is a handy tool to have around.

Bert

Google "making rc battery packs." The r/c and robot guys have been doing this for some time now, I'd just follow their lead. I'd consider not worrying about accessing each cell, and make packs of 6 or 12 volts. Then just swap out the pack when it goes bad and if you want pull it apart to keep the good cells.

Seems that the key to soldering is to use high heat so that you flow the solder quickly before it heats cell.

some links:
Making NiMH Battery Packs
http://www.rc-soar.com/articles/batterypack/index.htm

How To Build a Battery Pack from A123 Cells
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599316

Making Custom battery Packs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IelXfcrIXCc

Sodering A123
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1irrx...eature=related

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Spiv

Now 500A seems a lot of power, how do we supply it?

Hi Stefano,

Answer: Help me to make the pipe battery a reality. 500 ampere at full blast?, I do not think you will use that very often, other then to pull through 3 - 5 meter entry harbour waves like here by Knysna, RSA. Find me a conducting paste which is still sticky at 40 degrees Celcius and you can build a 500 Ampere powerpack with 40 x type D 7 - 8 Amperehour x 100 (4000) NiMH batteries.
But if we cannot find this paste, to solder 4000 batteries together is in my view not recommended.

Bert