Batteries and New Battery Technologies

Super New Technology?

...portion of a letter I wrote to Nigel Calder

I absolutely love your articles on the diesel-electric subject, and now batteries. Your thorough analysis of the subject makes for wonderful reference material

This is another subject that has gained lots of attention lately; all this new battery technology. I’ve long been interested in alternative fueled cars and electric ones in particular. I’ve followed this ‘super flywheel’ energy storage technology for years believing that one day we would see this hi-density storage come into being. I even suggested a super flywheel storage unit in place of the conventional yacht’s aux generator on a catamaran design I had published in 1974. And I was pushing for some development activity on this subject for alternative-fueled autos while I was working in SE Asia.

Alas, it now appears as though these new-tech batteries might supersede the flywheel concepts. So it was with great interest that I read your latest article “Breakthrough” in ProBoat. I had recently become aware of the new anode technology for lithium-ion batteries by Altairnano, and planned on trying to find time to read more about the various new battery technologies as a possible investment potential.

With those thoughts in mind, I now how have a question I wish to ask you. Are you familiar with some super new battery technology on the immediate horizon?? I am being bombarded with several investor newsletters touting this new ‘forever battery’ technology that’s due very soon, and from a small company (?). I’ve attached a portion of some of this solicitation. Do you know anything of this technology, and/or whatever company?

I’ve added these new postings to the forum discussions in hopes condensing a lot of the scattered battery discussions into one central discussion thread. And I started each with a reference to your fine article. Please add anything you would like to these discussions.

 

Brian,

Absolutely correct about weight. We figured 21 tons of Odyessy batteries for two hours duration for service as a 750 Kw. Krokodil 2-6-0-0-6-2 rescue locomotive, having a worst case scenario of starting 300 tons, including the failed Garratt, on 1-40 gradient, hauling at 25 mph and then replacing the failed locomotive for the return journey. Both ends of the line are at sea level, so as half the trip is down hill, regeneration helps the equation. It's just an idea whose moment may well arrive before the Lithium Phosphate batteries become commonplace. Adhesion weight matters.

For a 60-70' epoxy ply composite catamaran, the weight penalty for 1200 Ahrs capacity of Odyessy batteries is just about a ton over Lithium Phosphate units, so a fully electric fast moving boat, using regeneration when sailing, plus solar panels and a Red Baron at anchor will work very well, with today's technology.

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=library&i=windGenComp

The weight of batteries, control gear and electric motors compares very favourably with the installed weight of two 60 HP diesel engines, fuel tanks, diesel generator etcetera, etcetera. Starting with a clean sheet of paper as you have done with your aftmast concept, it becomes easier to achieve new standards of excellence. When, in 10 years, it's time to replace the Odyessy units, there will be a choice of same capacity at lower weight or increased capacity at same weight.

Best wishes,

Perry

 

Betting on Future Developments

That's an interesting weight comparisons that would need to be considered, and I can appreciate this thought of yours,

I'm suggesting the same sort of approach with the kite-assisted power cat (new age trawler/motorsailer) I posted here....getting started at the very promising leading-edge technologies of the future, even before they reach maturity. And doing it in a manner that will readily accept the newer developments that will occur with maturity.

I would like to look at the 'energy density' factor of these stowage devices, all the while keeping in mind those limitations on many of today's batteries that were brought up in Nigel's ProBoat article.

 

Regeneration under Sail

I can picture this 'regeneration factor' as worthwhile in many hybrid applications, but not under sail. I just can't imagine wanting to tow around a lot of extra drag in order to 'regenerate'....just doesn't sound productive to me in a sailboat environment, particularly when we go to all of the trouble to make these vessel perform well under sail.

 

Limits in the Chemical Nature of Batteries

...in relation to the 'energy density' subject I mentioned above, I found this quote by some analyst...I can't remember where

The Limits of Nature
In technological terms, there is a natural limit on the amount of energy per gram that can be stored in a battery. This limit is defined by the size of the chemical materials employed and the strength with which they bind their electrons. The targeted use of innovative chemical elements could enable, at most, a tenfold increase in this limit relative to today’s lithium ion cells.

However, hundredfold or greater improvements are not possible due to the laws of nature. Higher energy density can be achieved in nuclear batteries, which derive their power from the radioactive decay of isotopes. As a result, nuclear batteries can constantly emit energy for up to 20 years. This principle has long been recognized and was already applied in the 1950s and 60s in satellite technology. In this area too, nanotechnology has paved the way for some remarkable advances.

Consequently, the more widespread use of such energy storage devices across a range of applications is becoming more tangible.

 

Flywheel Energy Storage, again

This method of energy storage keeps popping back into my mind.

Some quoted excerpts from a few of my previous postings:

Flywheel energy storage is a more efficient, pollution-free solution to chemical batteries. Total recharge can be accomplished in about 15 minutes at any rate of energy draw or frequency yielding a cycle life of over 100,000 charges, or 30 years, with no deterioration in performance.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=88966&postcount=195
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So far no big auto manufacturer has picked up the option to incorporate Bitterly's design into their models. Meanwhile, there is considerable interest in Bitterly's flywheels powering satellites in space and trains in Germany. He also has a static model in the works that could be used as a back-up power generator. In the event of a power failure, it could assume the load within nanoseconds, thus preventing valuable computer data from being lost.

How long do Bitterly's flywheel systems last? He has designed the system to survive at least 10,000 run-and-recharge cycles. Under normal conditions, that would mean a life of 27 years -- and that's only a lower limit. flywheel systems last? He has designed the system to survive at least 10,000 run-and-recharge cycles. Under normal conditions, that would mean a life of 27 years -- and that's only a lower limit.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=88967&postcount=196
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Cause of Death: Major car manufacturers' rejection of new, flywheel-based engine technology

In August 1996, brothers Benjamin and Harold Rosen summoned a throng of journalists and auto executives to the remote Mojave Desert, in California. The founders of Rosen Motors had spent three years developing a hybrid electric vehicle. Now they were ready to debut their version of the car of the future. As the road test began, the spectators craned their necks in anticipation.

With their company entering a costly crash-testing phase, and with automakers in Detroit and overseas unwilling to bankroll it, the Rosens decided to call it quits, putting their 70 employees out of work. Reinventing the automobile turns out to be as difficult as it sounds--even for Ben Rosen.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=88974&postcount=198
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Energy stowage densities on the order of 10 to 20 times that of the very best batteries last time I checked....and that was some time ago.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=89605&postcount=206

 

Brian,

For the average monohull, regeneration is a complete non starter but, as an example, Gunboat 66 cruising speeds are vastly greater, even to those of most existing catamarans. The acceptable loss of speed due to drag of regeneration in such a situation, would be used efficiently and productively, whilst still leaving the others hull down on the horizon

In fact, a constant 30 knots of wind over the deck can be enervating, so for some crews, 26 knots just might be preferable. If out and out speed is later required, the Autoprops can be made to fold and the drag compared with a non turning fixed propellers drops by 85%, according to Bruton.

http://www.autoprop.com/autoprop/international/video.html

A Gunboat 62 has reached 36 knots and that speed was achieved with locked, fixed blade propellers on the two saildrive legs, protruding at an angle sideways from each hull at midships.

http://www.deltayachtsbrokerage.com/news/YWorld_gb62.pdf

It's the clean sheet scenario. The regeneration principal works because a cruising catamaran can be built that will scream across an ocean. It's not a retro fit, it's new build only. The large battery bank is not for motoring, it's to provide a luxurious lifestyle and for stealthily entering and leaving a mooring.

Best regards,

Perry

 

A few basic terms can help to understand and visualize electrical energy storage devices.

Specific Energy is the kwHrs/Kg.
Specific Energy is important, because you want as much energy stored with as little weight as possible. However, compared to an automobile a boat can much better tolerate weight.

Volumetric Energy Density is the kwHrs/unit volume.
Volumetric Energy Density is important because whatever the weight, the smaller the package size, the easier it is to integrate into the space you have available.

Power (watt or kw) is the rate at which a device can accept or discharge its energy.
Power is important for the rate of charge and how much you can draw in a short time for a rapid acceleration for example. High power rates can allow the instantaneous drawing of huge amounts of energy when required. Low power rates cause inefficiency because when you try to draw it, the energy is converted to thermal energy which can actual damage the device and reduces the amount of energy available.

Energy (kwHr) is the actual amount of energy stored.
Energy is the amount of power you have over time, which relates to the time and distance that you can run. But you have to calculate the total efficiency of the system in order to determine how long your storage device will actually run your electric motor or what have you.

Deep Discharge Cycles are the number of times you can fill and empty the storage device before it fails or falls below a certain percentage of its original capacity.
Deep discharge cycles relate to the life of the storage device. This is complicated somewhat by the fact that in some storage devices (such as deep cycle lead acid batteries) a partial discharge/charge of the device can be more efficient than full discharge. In a situation in which one deep discharge is anticipated on a daily basis, you can calculate the life of the storage device.

Efficiency is the ratio of the energy put into the device compared to what comes out.
Efficiency is very important, especially throughput efficiency or in/out efficiency. This tells you how much of the energy you put into a device will be retrievable. The amount that is not retrievable is generally lost as thermal energy which also generally shortens the life of the device.

Shelf Life is how long the device can endure when not in use or with a minimal maintenance charge.
Shelf life relates to how long the device can sit unattended without self-destructing. This is very important in uses which are occasional as in recreational boats.

Maintenance is the amount of effort, expense, and risk that is required to utilize the device over its life. Obviously the less maintenance require, the more useful the device.

The Self-discharge Rate is what percentage of the energy is lost over time when the device is charged but unused. The only type of energy storage that does not appreciably self-discharge is the potential difference created by gravity. If you lift a weight away from the earths center, you have stored energy in that mass which can be released when it falls back to its original position. This is why pumped hydro storage is very attractive on a large scale, although impractical for vehicles because of the scale of the device. Lead acid batteries discharge at about 3%/month when fully charged. Super capacitors can self-discharge that much in a day, depending on the technology. The Lithium titanate technology referred to in this thread self-discharges at about 10% per month. The self discharge rate of a device is sometimes gradually reduced as the voltage goes down. So for example a fully charged 5 volt supercapacitor may self-discharge more rapidly until 75% of its energy remains at which time the rate is rapidly reduced.

These issues are what make the Altairnano technology a real breakthrough in batteries. But right now the company seems to be going through some difficulties as the CEO has stepped down and they have had to have a recall of their earlier battery packs from Phoenix Motorcar Company because of a heating problem. If these people can work out their problems, their technology represents a quantum leap in electrical energy storage technology.

 

help
i need help to get this to work

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21891

 

I'm going to get pedantic with Mr Cole, but first I will address this statement.

"These issues are what make the Altairnano technology a real breakthrough in batteries. But right now the company seems to be going through some difficulties as the CEO has stepped down and they have had to have a recall of their earlier battery packs from Phoenix Motorcar Company because of a heating problem."

That statement begs one question. Why bother to bring up the subject of Altairnano at all and especially when Valence are so well ahead? It makes no sense, neither rational nor financial to me.

http://www.valence.com/products/ucharge_xp.html

Mr Cole. I also know you meant to suggest a "significant" step when you typed "their technology represents a quantum leap in electrical energy storage technology", but in physics, the subject under discussion here, the dictionary definition of quantum is as follows: The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist independently, especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic radiation.

Thus, you inadvertently wrote the exact opposite of your intended meaning! Quantum leap is not a giant one, it's tiny! I felt it important to notify you in this frank manner because the rest of your post seems to imply you believe that those who post here are pretty ignorant about the subject of stored electric power. If I'm wrong, I apologise, but your tract really does read as if you are trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

Pericles

 

Wow! When I read a response like this one I just wonder what makes people so unreasonably contentious!

First the phrase "Quantum Leap" as defined by Mirriam-Webster Dictionary is:
quantum leap Function:noun
Date:1956: an abrupt change, sudden increase, or dramatic advance Here is another one:
Main Entry:con·ten·tious
Pronunciation:\kən-ˈten(t)-shəs\
Function:adjective
Date:15th century1 : likely to cause contention <a contentious argument> 2 : exhibiting an often perverse and wearisome tendency to quarrels and disputes <a man of a most contentious nature>synonyms see belligerent
Mr. Pericles, we are dealing not just in science but also language in this forum so it might good if you took your own saying to heart: Whilst entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts!

The fact is that many in this forum are only beginning to focus on the subjects discussed here. The practical issues of electrical energy storage are often not summarized in these discussions.

The reason that that the Altairnano technology could be a quantum leap in electrical energy storage technology is that if the specifications publicly released by the firm are factual,

• they are a no maintenance battery,
• with supercapacitor-like power characteristics (the rate at which they can take on and release a charge), resulting in amazingly fast charge up times,
• Energy density characteristics between NiMH and Li-ion,
• with 15,000 deep discharge cycles (if you did one cycle per day that would be 41+ years)
• a claimed 20 year life
• 90%+ throughput efficiency
• An extremely wide operating temperature range
• No danger of combustion
• Environmentally benign
• No other battery system that I know of comes close to these specifications. Certainly not Valence Technology

As far as teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, I thought that I was trying to be helpful to those with limited knowledge of the subject. I am a professional in renewable energy systems and believe that my experience and knowledge is valuable especially in electrical energy systems.

 

I have been to most of the forums in the past 4 years, but when I stumbled onto this one I was was very pleased to see a serious discussion on a serious issue being held by obvious learned professionals. I will just hang around and listen and hope to learn something.
Question on batteries: There was a man and wife team that designed batteries that I believe were used in the AV1 (the electric car the was leased by GM then crushed when they got too popular) GM bought their paten, but I think they went on to design other batteries. Are they still alive? Are any of their batteries in development?

 

May I suggest the debate be restricted (use "grumpy..." and call attention by posting a link - that is what I created the thread for..) Post sites that are freely accessable with a brief comment - I would like to learn too... (I blow off steam in "the dungeons")

My thanks to you both for the clarification... "from one who hides in the dungeons"

 

I went to your site. Interesting, but I don't have a gofast. Can the pod work to replace a 50 hp diesel in a 38ft sailboat?

 

yes it can
plus there are a few new ones as well