Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[BertKu]

Hi Rick,
I agree with Mark775 refer 225.

The Hollanders have bend the tip on their electric propulsion. Must be for a reason. refer thumbnail 198. I am curries what would happen if you bend your tips in the same sort of manner. Would you get a better "consumption" out of your blades?

Bert

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by BertKu

Hi Rick,
I agree with Mark775 refer 225.

The Hollanders have bend the tip on their electric propulsion. Must be for a reason. refer thumbnail 198. I am curries what would happen if you bend your tips in the same sort of manner. Would you get a better "consumption" out of your blades?

Bert

The induced drag on high aspect blades under low loadiung condition as I have them is very low anyhow. Hence there is not much value in fencing the blade with angled tips.

Induced drag is caused by the high pressure on the back of the prop skirting around the outer edge of the prop to the low pressure side. If the blades are long and slender, operating at very low pressure coeeficient there is little flow around the tip.

If you find an article on induced drag on a foil, wing or blade it might help you understand what I am saying. If the design is efficient to start with it does not need the add ons.

Rick W

Rick W

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by mark775

Rick, that is one beautiful prop. Does the hub need to be that big?

I imagine you are talking about the shiny aluminium one not the black one.

The prop was originally intended to have a strut support with something like 30mm OD bearings. As it turned out he set the record with the outboard end unsupported so it could have been smaller. It had a nice cone fairing in front of it though.

Also if you go too small the root of the blades are under very high stress even with the small loads involved.

The inner portion of the blades really only act as a means of getting the useful part of the blades out to a larger radius. The first 1/3rd does very little in the way of useful propulsion.

Rick W

[Ad Hoc]

"...Induced drag is caused by the high pressure on the back of the prop skirting around the outer edge of the prop to the low pressure side...."

This is not strictly correctly and is slightly misleading because the tip vortexes play a much greater role and must considered when reviewing foil data/theory. Tip vortexes streaming astern from the free ends of a foil have a much more pronounced effects than pressure leakage which generally takes place around the tips, from the +p to the -p surfaces.

The induced drag is when the lift force has a 'backward' or drag component. It is the force which would be required to push a foil approximately equal to the lift force F, up a 'frictionless' inclined plane. All because the induced velocity causes the tip and trailing vortexes to 'bend downwards' from the plane of motion (downwash angle). In reality the induced velocities are at right angles to the resultant velocity.

[Ad Hoc]

bertku

The Japanese did some interesting research in the mid 1990s with a "lip-cup" as they called them. A cupping of 1% chord from the 0.7rad to the tip gave an increment of around 0.02 of the thrust coeff. They were easily able to modify the thrust and/or torque without sacrificing the efficiency.

[BertKu]

Hi Rick,

I just got off the phone to the batterymanufacturer. Not very good news for me. The Calcium battery is indeed 100% the same as the old ordinary lead acid battery. The plates or spirals are just slightly exposed to calcium. Thus the voltage is excactly 2.28 volt per cell. The German automove industry does not go for NiMH due to the memory element they have. They all are busy in making the automotive battery in the VLRA direction and smaller, leighter without loss of capacity.

The supplier of the Smart Lithium battery management suite has no datasheets for me, unless I sign a non disclosure agreement. To enable to charge a battery like you are planning to buy, 90Amperehour, lots of external components like power Mosfets are required. Buying a charger off the shelve is thus the best.

Thank you all, for all the other information supplied to me, CDK, Ad Hoc, and all others. I am signing off, I am on a business trip again will be back middle next week.
For you Rick, I toroughly enjoyed the video clips and hope to get some more soon from you.

Bert

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Ad Hoc

bertku

The Japanese did some interesting research in the mid 1990s with a "lip-cup" as they called them. A cupping of 1% chord from the 0.7rad to the tip gave an increment of around 0.02 of the thrust coeff. They were easily able to modify the thrust and/or torque without sacrificing the efficiency.

Kind of ventured off the battery subject here, but that happens sometimes. I was going to ask Rick if this wasn't some sort of 'cupping' of the prop. Hasn't this 'shop technology' been around for quite a number of years? I remember having a prop on a 9.9 hi-thrust Yamaha outboard cupped so I could take advantage of the slight bit of increased pitch I figured I could handle in that application.... the cupping in lieu of increasing the pitch....prop alteration

[Boston]

Originally Posted by CDK

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

Ive just been reading along but had to mention that I was recently up at CU in one of the labs and was fiddling with some magnets on a bench while I spoke to one of the postdoctorates
those magnets were maybe three quarters of an inch in diameter and maybe half an inch thick each
nothing I could do could pull em apart
our conversation kinda broke down into him laughing his ass off at me as my casual attempts to separate them turned to some kind of freak show
I think he puts them out as an idiot test
I didnt walk in there thinking magnets at all I was just walking down the hall
apparently that particular lab is devoted to developing rare earth magnets or there next generation
from what I could gain in the short conversation we had
the rare earth magnets they have out on the market are nothing compared to some of the stuff in that lab

the comment that really stuck (after he was done laughing it up) he mentioned they have magnets that even if placed on opposite ends of the room will interact with another and screw up various measurements and test results

[brian eiland]

.....interesting observations on nickel mining for batteries, and the subsequent polution that occurs during ocean transit

Sunday, June 21, 2009
The June 9 Business article "Toyota Wants New Prius to Be America's Next Top Model" called the Prius an "eco-icon" and said that it has allowed Americans to "advertise their eco-correctness." A Toyota spokesman was quoted as saying that many Prius buyers want to "make an environmental statement."

The Prius's reputation as a "green" car is completely undeserved. The culprit is its nickel metal hydride battery.
The nickel is mined in Sudbury, Ontario, and smelted nearby, doing damage to the local environment. The smelted nickel is shipped to Wales, where it is refined. Then it is sent to China to be made into nickel foam. Then it goes to Japan, where it is made into a battery. Then it goes into cars, some of which are shipped to the United States and some of which go to Europe. All of that seaborne transport consumes a lot of fossil fuel.

CNW Marketing rates cars on the combined energy needed "to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage." A Prius costs $2.87 per lifetime mile. By comparison, an H3 Hummer costs $2.07 per lifetime mile. Then there will be the problem of disposing of the used batteries. This is not a "green" car; it is a "brown" one.
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Not Easy Being Green
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Thursday, March 22, 2007
Environment: Feeling a bit smug about owning that hybrid? Better rein in that contempt for those who still drive primitive conventional cars. It seems that a Hummer is more ecologically friendly than a Prius.

Yes, the Hummer will burn much more gasoline and discharge more emissions than a Toyota Prius driven the same distance. But a car's ecological footprint — if we may twist an environmentalist phrase — is more than just fuel mileage.

Hummer: Is this demon machine actually a friend of the environment?
The feature that makes the Prius such a draw for the environmentally conscious is really its weak spot: the battery. Like all hybrid batteries, it's of the nickel metal hydride variety. The nickel for the Prius is mined in Sudbury, Ontario, and smelted at a plant nearby. Toyota buys 1,000 tons of nickel from the plant each year.

So far, so green? Maybe not. The landscape around the plant at the city's edge alarms environmentalists. Some eco-activists blame the bleak, lifeless countryside near the facility in part on its 1,250-foot smokestack that belches acid-rain-causing sulphur dioxide. 'Sudbury remains a major environmental and health problem,' says David Martin of Greenpeace Canada. 'The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high.'

But there's more. From the Sudbury plant, the smelted nickel is shipped to Europe, where it's refined in Wales. Next, it's sent to China, where it's manufactured in nickel foam. The nickel is then moved to Japan, where Prius batteries are made. But the long, fossil-fuel-burning journey doesn't end there. After the batteries are placed in the Prius, some of the nickel is round-tripped back to North America while some is shipped to Europe in cars sold outside Japan.

This useful information comes not from the investigative efforts of the mainstream U.S. media that allegedly exist to keep the public informed; it's brought to us by Chris Demorro, an enterprising reporter with the newspaper of Central Connecticut State University, The Recorder, and London Mail reporter Martin Delgado.

While the Prius digs a deep environmental rut, the Hummer H3 plods on with a much lighter touch. An H3 costs $2.07 per lifetime mile to operate in environmental terms, while the Prius costs $2.87. Figures are courtesy of CNW Marketing, which rates cars on the combined energy needed 'to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage.'
Then there's the expected life span of the Prius: 100,000 miles, or a third of the Hummer's, says CNW. Toyota would have to go through the same 'build, sell, drive and dispose' process three times for three Priuses to provide the same amount of service provided by one H3.

We know some hybrid owners buy them for the fuel mileage and are not obsessed with global warming. But that doesn't mean a hybrid is necessarily a good choice, especially after the EPA lowered the 2008 model's fuel efficiency rating. The hybrid king of mileage actually gets a city-highway average of about 46 mpg, down roughly 16% from earlier ratings.
If mileage and economy are the top concerns, then better choices might be Toyota's Yaris or Corolla, conventional-engine cars that get nearly comparable mileage with no hybrid price premium.

We're not trying to disparage hybrids in response to environmentalists' demonization of SUVs. Consumers should be free to drive whatever they want. We're merely providing some little-known facts — and wondering just what other 'green' alternatives being pushed on the public are not so green after all.

[Guest62110524]

i last Nov bought a ford mondeo diesel 2l tdci
It was supposed to do 50mpg on highways, I drove 10000 km in Eu in all sorts of conditions this last month, it often hit 60mpg, , I proved this by fills and receipts and this, how much greener can you get, it weighs 1.500 kgs, it is a superb car and I have had plenty including big Mercedes
here it is after filling done 20 miles at av 60 miles per g, thats abt 4.6 l per 100
It purrs and can sit on 100mph all day
no wonder american cars have gone tits up, Euros are so far ahead

[FAST FRED]

and wondering just what other 'green' alternatives being pushed on the public are not so green after all.

If "cap and trade" gets stuffed thru (its another Emergency , you know, so no need to actually READ the bill) fuel and heating oil will go up another Buck , and electric will go up 90%.

Happily show leather will not go up much , if the recession is pushed into a depression, folks can torch DC on foot.

FF

"no wonder American cars have gone tits up, Euros are so far ahead [with their Ford]. ...God, grant me the patience to not snap at the arrogant Kraut. At least he could have used a Beemer for an example.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by whoosh

i last Nov bought a ford mondeo diesel 2l tdci

I looked on a number of sites and have yet to see anyone of them say something other that diesel engine with 6 speed trans. WHAT ABOUT THE ENGINE???? Is it a 6 or 4 or 5?? V or in-line?? Reporters these days are idiots.

[CDK]

""CNW Marketing rates cars on the combined energy needed "to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage." A Prius costs $2.87 per lifetime mile. By comparison, an H3 Hummer costs $2.07 per lifetime mile. Then there will be the problem of disposing of the used batteries. This is not a "green" car; it is a "brown" one.""

Of course, it would have been better for the environment if the Prius had a battery made from pine or limestone. They certainly tried, but it didn't work as well as NiMh.
What is overlooked here is that the Nickel will be recycled over and over again without putting a further load on the environment while the Hummer keeps gobbling up precious fuel until it rusts through.

Even the Chinese try to prevent more Hummers to be born.......
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[BertKu]

Hi guys, I am back from Cape Town. With swells of over 9 meter (27 feet) it was quite something, but lucky I was not out on the sea. Please American friends, you have placed yourself in the confederation cup final for Soccer against Brazil, can't you get that company EEstor to be in the final with NiMH batteries. I am dying to get hold of one and have a lifetime pleasure of a million charge/discharge cycle. I am nearly finished with a crazy design for a electric driven small boat. As soon I have all the sketches properly on paper, I will let you have your say of what you think about it. But I need some decent batteries, before I even will contemplate to get myself into 2 - 5 meters of sea we often have here where I am living.
I don't like lead acid batteries, too much gasses, I dont like the sealed battery, too heavy although a substantial better than the liquid one. I don't like the NiMH as I understood they have memory problem? if not properly charged. I don't like a couple of other batteries, as they are also too expensive and tricky with charging.
All I want is your EEstor capacitor battery. What is the latest on that company???
Bert Ku