Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[CDK]

BertKu, to insult me you need heavy artillery. Can't even find the phrase that you thought might be offensive.
I am not from Greece but from somewhere quite near the "Kager plassen".
Since my retirement we live on an Adriatic island, see it all on www.puntakriza.com

Rick, I know it is fascinating, just wanted to provide some counterweight in case readers start installing 3-phase motors without knowing the whole story.

Masalai, Calcium batteries are common lead-acid, the calcium matrix just holds the plates together and plays no active role. It's just limestone...

[BertKu]

I assume apology accepted.

I may not completely agree with you. Those batteries are build in Korea or Austraila or at least in that area and what I have seen from the specification, it is better than Lead Acid batteries.
a) the leakage current is substantial less than a lead acid battery, even a dry sealed one. I am using them in hunderds and maximum 6 months and then, if they are not recharged, they are gone. They loose the ability to hold power for thereafter.
c) I do agree that they use a portion lead in their wrought spiral calcium/lead construction. But I don't know what percentage, I can only assume very little.
d) but which Lead acid battery can be stored for over a year and can be used straight away?
e) which lead acid battery last for 6 years? Although I have some here which are 8 years old, but just because I have them on a trickle charge of about 5 milliampere

have a look at the various Delkor information via Yahoo or google. I personnlay think they are one stage better than Lead acid.

You are living in a beautifull part of the world. When I was 19 years old I explored that part of the world. I doubt it that it is today as cheap as it was in those days.
Bert

[BertKu]

[quote=Rick Willoughby;280136]I sold my last yacht 17 years ago when my children were into sports that did not include sailing.

Hi Rick, I have a similar situation that my daughter became a junior showjumping champion and that settled my free time with making wireless electronic timers. I had an unique way of avoiding wrong times during severe interferances, which resulted that I was able to export them into Europe.

I have one difference, I have a wife who also has done her yachting courses and she wants a cozy 2 bed in a reasonale large area in the boat I like to build. This makes my plan to build an electric boat much more complex.
Also she fell of her horse and damaged her back, which makes sailing on my own quite imposible. I tried it while I was on holiday in Holland.

My electric boat is going to be much more heavier and probably 2 x 6Kw generators/motors coupled to a diesel. I love to use solar energy and wind energy, but with 2 x 6 Kw, it will make it much more difficult to run it without a diesel.

Also the waves are far to high in this part of the world. I love your design and deep in my heart, that is the one I should build, but I have to be realistic.
At my age I don't want a divorce on my hand.

Will be using the kind of screw I have attached? Like a plane, the tips are bend.

Bert

[Fanie]

Hi CDK,

Calcium batteries are common lead-acid

Be carefull with this. Calcium batteries have a higher voltage than the standard lead acid batteries. Some of the over eagers here now have charging problems in their cars, it seems the batteries doesn't get charged properly because the alternators hasn't been adapted and undercharge the calciums.

[Rick Willoughby]

Bert
I braved a miserable Melbourne morning on the lake to get some video clips of what the little Turnigy motor will do on two small lead acid batteries. These batteries run out of puff at a combined power around 200W. I did not have any instruments set up to actually measure the power.

This clip shows the reduction, shaft and prop:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/da...11JE_Drive.wmv
The overall ratio is 12:1. The 10mm pitch belt is much larger than I need for this but I had for another purpose so used it.

This clip shows the boat moving along (4.2Mb so will take time to download):
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/da...11JE_10kph.wmv
The noise is not as noticeable on the boat. It is probably the orientation of the microphone.

It topped out at 10kph (5.4kts).

My next step is to get a lithium battery so I can take the motor to its 600W limit.

Rick W

[Fanie]

Eh !! No peddaling... that's cheating

You may do better by not having the belt system, instead drive the prop directly with a motor for max efficiency. Something else you should watch out for and that is the drive cable should turn true and not try to swing around an imaginary axle.

That prop you used looks like an air prop, and not a water prop !

Looks pretty good though. What motor did you use ?

[Rick Willoughby]

Originally Posted by Fanie

Eh !! No peddaling... that's cheating

You may do better by not having the belt system, instead drive the prop directly with a motor for max efficiency. Something else you should watch out for and that is the drive cable should turn true and not try to swing around an imaginary axle.

Looks pretty good though. What motor did you use ?

It needs the reduction to drive a decent prop. A prop sized to run at engine speed would be about 30% efficient. The one I used is around 80% efficient. I could make a better prop but the Bolly was not being used for anything else right now. The motor and reduction use 6W to turn over so no load losses are low. The toothed belts operate at zero slip so should be efficient under load.

The curved shaft is 1/4" spring steel and gets the prop aligned with the flow. If you force an incline it will vibrate badly. A push prop is self stabilising so once it starts rotating it is as if it is held in a rigid bearing at the outboard end. I just use the strut to keep the shaft from flopping about when carrying and hitting the hull in a turn or in waves.

This link shows the motor:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...0_750Kv_/_600W
Set me back USD24. I got it for a radio controlled model of the faux-tri but could not resist trying it on the bigger boat until I get the model built. The motor is tiny - pick up something that weighs 149 grams and you will realise how small it is.

Rick W

[mark775]

"The curved shaft is 1/4" spring steel and gets the prop aligned with the flow. If you force an incline it will vibrate badly. A push prop is self stabilising so once it starts rotating it is as if it is held in a rigid bearing at the outboard end. I just use the strut to keep the shaft from flopping about when carrying and hitting the hull in a turn or in waves." - I knew that was coming! I think what Rick does here is one of the coolest things ever...

[Rick Willoughby]

Originally Posted by mark775

.... - I knew that was coming! I think what Rick does here is one of the coolest things ever...

Mark
You are easily impressed!

Actually I was so excited the first time I tested the idea that I asked the guy who told me about it if he had any intention of patenting it because it was novel to me and I did not want to disclose the idea in public domain if he wanted priority. He did not see it as a big deal - just something he found out playing with fibreglass prop shafts.

I have since been told that props on aircraft are aligned to flow approaching the wing rather than being aligned to the wing so I guess it is something aero engineers already know about.

Rick W

[CDK]

I see that I have to rephrase my statement about calcium batteries just a little bit. Introducing another element in a lead/acid battery for purely mechanical purposes does alter the characteristics, otherwise there would be no sense doing it.
The old-fashioned batteries were manufactured with pure lead for both positive and negative plates, only after charging lead-oxide was formed.
Fast charging and deep cycling causes damage to the very soft oxide, so the battery makers developed a matrix technology using elements like calcium, antimony, selenium etc. and prefabricated plates with lead oxide so they could skip the time consuming formation phase and still could sell the batteries fully charged.
But they are still all lead-acid batteries.
Why there are only Calcium batteries and no Antimony or Selenium batteries is a mystery to me, the reason can only be commercial: it sounds good.

Of course Delkor, Varta and Exide all claim to have the ultimate technology, but this site gives objective information:
http://www.engineersedge.com/battery...n_alloying.htm

[masalai]

Thanks CDK - most useful info "credit has been posted to your boatdesign.net account"

[mark775]

Have aluminum/air batteries gone anywhere? Still a problem with, I guess the word would be, precipatants? Precipitates? Sorry, didn't read the entire thread and got tired of the forward looking marketing BS from the Finnish (I believe) company...

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by CDK

I see that I have to rephrase my statement about calcium batteries just a little bit. Introducing another element in a lead/acid battery for purely mechanical purposes does alter the characteristics, otherwise there would be no sense doing it.
The old-fashioned batteries were manufactured with pure lead for both positive and negative plates, only after charging lead-oxide was formed.
Fast charging and deep cycling causes damage to the very soft oxide, so the battery makers developed a matrix technology using elements like calcium, antimony, selenium etc. and prefabricated plates with lead oxide so they could skip the time consuming formation phase and still could sell the batteries fully charged.
But they are still all lead-acid batteries.
Why there are only Calcium batteries and no Antimony or Selenium batteries is a mystery to me, the reason can only be commercial: it sounds good.

Of course Delkor, Varta and Exide all claim to have the ultimate technology, but this site gives objective information:
http://www.engineersedge.com/battery...n_alloying.htm

Hi CDK, It appears that you have a point that people have problems with charging their cars with the present volatge regulator. Altough I can only enquire next week with a manufacturer whether the voltage can be easy modified with maybe 2 diodes in serie with a particular connection , whereby the output voltage is reased by 0,8 volt from the volatge regulator on the alternator.
But would anybody know what the proper charging voltage suppose to be for Calcium batteries?.
I personnaly have lost interest in Calcium batteries. The price is nearly 3 x the normal cost of a lead aciod battery versus 1,6 x 2 time longer lifetime.
Does not make sense to change as the weight is approx the same.

I need to do some more research on NiMH batteries possible used for the Japanese Hybrid cars coming out.

Bert

[Rick Willoughby]

Originally Posted by BertKu

......
I need to do some more research on NiMH batteries possible used for the Japanese Hybrid cars coming out.

Bert

These are the batteries being developed for the iMIEV in Japan. They are very impressive:
http://lithiumenergy.jp/en/products/index.html
They are storing over 100W/kg. This is around 3 times that of VRLA batteries. They have a huge advantage from a power density point of view.

Rick W

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

Bert
I braved a miserable Melbourne morning on the lake to get some video clips of what the little Turnigy motor will do on two small lead acid batteries. These batteries run out of puff at a combined power around 200W. I did not have any instruments set up to actually measure the power.

It topped out at 10kph (5.4kts).

My next step is to get a lithium battery so I can take the motor to its 600W limit.

Rick W

Hi Rick, for me you are getting a 6 star rating. Well done and I hope that your lithium battery will not be a disappointment for the price you will be paying. The charging of a lithium battery is problematic. Have a look at the TI chip bq78L114. It is a smart battery management system and could be easy made by you to a full proper charger. Basically the IC is the core and the most difficult part of a charger. The rest is a matter of one weekend making a casing with cables.

By the way, the solarpanel industry is plunging down in price due to an oversupply in 2009. It is expected as from middle of 2010 to pick up again.
In view that you need 600 watt of solar panels, the industry is mumbling of only getting USA$ 2,50 - 2.75 per watt. This means for you some 1800 dollars from China or the Far east. Refer http://www.isuppli.com. It may be worthwile to consider this.
Bert