Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by mydauphin

..What the heck does this have to do with batteries.... I don't know - but I wonder if the new kids on the block really know the physics or chemistries needed to create anything new. Or they just dream of future without the knowledge, or will, to make it happen...

I'm holding out hope that there are kids who really want to learn, and they will help us into these new technologies. I just happen to have a Thai stepson who has won himself a scholarship to study physics here in the USA. He's just completed Prep school in Conn, and now will go onto WPI in Mass. He's told me he wants to study this energy storage technology. And he puts forth that very extra effort to study a difficult subject, as well as conquer the English language simultaneously.

When I look at roll models like our new President, and the new Supreme Court nominee, and the backgrounds from which they rose, I'm greatly encouraged.

[Frosty]

Necessity is the mother of inventions and when the Government really wants us to go electric they will give some serious tax incentives.

Then the improvements will come,--- this will be timed with max profit opportunities such as small improvement yearly so we buy small improvements not knowing that large improvements actually exist.

Bit like mobile telephone manufacturers.

[Brent Swain]

After asking the BC government , who claimed to be going green, " Where are our tax expemptions for solar panels, wind generators , sailboats and sails, as even if one motors everywhere in a sailboa, it will still use a fraction the fuel of a powerboat hull."
I received several emails from one of their bureucrats saying they are already exempt if you buy a whole setup, regaredless of what you already have , if you fill out a lot of forms and applications. I asked why one doesn't even get asked for the tax when buying a loaf of bread, yet you dont get the same deal with energy saving devices.
Then I got an email from the energy minister saying " Thanks for the suggestion of tax exemptions for energy saving devices. We'll consider that." After having been telling me that they already were exempt (none of the retailers were aware of any exemptions)
What a bunch of lying hippocrites. So I sent the emails to the opposition, but the issue was never raised, as far as I know.
They should all be PST and GST exempt. With out that, non of the governing politicoes has any credibility on green issues.
Brent

[BertKu]

That dutch company most likely made a motor with a higher frequency as 50 Hz, probably 1000 or 2000 Herz. Automatically the size will be smaller and the weight less. As long they kept the ax the correct size, I don't see this at all as a new invention. The prnciple of using higher frequencies to gain a weight advantage is very well known.
If they made a DC motor, there are lately magnetic materials which has 100 fold stronger magnetisme then 20 years ago for the same weight and size and as such that company may have been able to reduce weight in that way.

[CDK]

Originally Posted by BertKu

That dutch company most likely made a motor with a higher frequency as 50 Hz, probably 1000 or 2000 Herz. Automatically the size will be smaller and the weight less. As long they kept the ax the correct size, I don't see this at all as a new invention. The prnciple of using higher frequencies to gain a weight advantage is very well known.
If they made a DC motor, there are lately magnetic materials which ar 100 fold stronger magnetisme then 20 yeras ago and as such they may have been able to reduce weight in that way.

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by CDK

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

Maybe we should ask Epcos. They just brought a new ferrite material N95 on the market from their factory in Austria. Although this is a ferrite material used for switchmode powersupplies, I do know,that they also have permanent magnetic ferrite material for militair applications. The problem is that they are not allowed to give details away. Pity. In statistics , one can always manupulate figures. I don't know in what way the 100 fold will refer to, weight, size, grain, magnetisme. The article did not refer to specifics.

By the way. I just came back from Europe and I read an article that the dutch in Friesland. Holland will reduce emisions to zero by 2020 for yachts. They basically can only go the electric way. I cannot see that any diesel or gasoline engine will after 200 hours will have zero emission.

[BertKu]

I am just reading an article in German about a test done on a hybrid 27 motoryacht versus a Vetus 33 Hp dieselmotor. Very impressive and motivating. Freely translated, the same 27 feet Kent hybrid egine had to reduce power from 7,5 kw to 6 kw as it already had archieved the maximum speed with 6 kw, while the 24 Kw Vetus-diesel engine at approx 80% outputpower did the same speed. The article stated that by 6 Kw it had a "zugkraft" of 290 kg , while a 24 Kw strong diesel only made the boat moving a little bit faster. Info: www.wetterwille.nl and "Wassersport in Nederland 01/2009"

[BertKu]

I am in 2 mind. Do I make my boat with a hybrid or do I go electric only all the way. I am busy to make a 6 meter boat and gamble that in 2 years time EESu 24 Volt batteries at present quoted price of USA dollar 65.20 will have materialized. The quoted price is for quantities larger than I need for my boat.
They quote: Super Capacitor
24 Volt output voltage DC 0,5%
Weight 2,2 Kg
Energy storage 26,7 Amperehours !!!!!
100% deepcycle for 10x6 times (1 million deepcycle discharge/charge !!)
-40 to +49 degree Celcius ( this could be a problem, I am not planning to cruize on the South pole only)

Am I correct in calculating 24 Volt battery, means 12 Volt average x 26.7 Amperehours = 320,4 Watthours i.e. for 10 hours and 2 x 6 Kw motors I need thus 38 x 10 = 380 batteries at approx USA dollar 70 = USA dollar 26600
Which should give me sufficinet pleasure for the rest of my life.

However I am very concernned about fire. If I have Diesel equivalent to 121 Kilowatthour energy on board, it is quite safe, maybe smelly, but safe.
A short circuit or seawater spillage over the terminals down under in the boat could be a diffrent sort of "smell" .
What is your views on hybrid or full electric????
Much obliged for your inputs.

[masalai]

Write a PM to Manie, Fanie or Wynand as they are all saffas... for my 2 cents

Possibly around September 09 - give or take a year, the US economy will collapse in a heap of despair.... Hedge your bets build what you can NOW, and put sails, solar (PV) panels, a small diesel charger that will happily use other vegetable oils, keep it light overall (cat of trimaran configuration) and something like Torqeedo electric legs which give a modest velocity from twin 4000W 48VDC motors.... If better batteries show up and you have the money that could be your choice but remember Oil is a finite resource and vegetable oil will be difficult to get as it is also a food, so days of big powerboats will be numbered to not much more than 5 or 10 years if the global economy picks up if not there will be shortages as no demand because of no money.... See my links below for what I am building...

[CDK]

Originally Posted by BertKu

I am in 2 mind. Do I make my boat with a hybrid or do I go electric only all the way. I am busy to make a 6 meter boat and gamble that in 2 years time EESu 24 Volt batteries at present quoted price of USA dollar 65.20 will have materialized. The quoted price is for quantities larger than I need for my boat.
They quote: Super Capacitor
24 Volt output voltage DC 0,5%
Weight 2,2 Kg
Energy storage 26,7 Amperehours !!!!!
100% deepcycle for 10x6 times (1 million deepcycle discharge/charge !!)
-40 to +49 degree Celcius ( this could be a problem, I am not planning to cruize on the South pole only)

Am I correct in calculating 24 Volt battery, means 12 Volt average x 26.7 Amperehours = 320,4 Watthours i.e. for 10 hours and 2 x 6 Kw motors I need thus 38 x 10 = 380 batteries at approx USA dollar 70 = USA dollar 26600
Which should give me sufficinet pleasure for the rest of my life.

However I am very concernned about fire. If I have Diesel equivalent to 121 Kilowatthour energy on board, it is quite safe, maybe smelly, but safe.
A short circuit or seawater spillage over the terminals down under in the boat could be a diffrent sort of "smell" .
What is your views on hybrid or full electric????
Much obliged for your inputs.

I haven't seen the battery specs, but for a marketable product based on capacitor technology there must be a switch mode regulator integrated in the device, so the output voltage remains constant. In that case your calculation should be based on 24 volts, not 12.
If they offer just the super-capacitor and 24 is the working voltage only a small part of the energy storage can be used, unless you are satisfied with a system that only has 6 volts left when the battery has lost 3/4 of it's charge.

There should also be specifications concerning the maximum discharge current. That is dictated by the size of the power take-off terminals in the capacitor. Shorting such a device (without the switch mode regulator) will result in a Big Bang, probably with lethal consequences.
Masalai's advice to stick to currently available technology sound wise to me.

[BertKu]

Thank you Masalai and CDK. You both are probably right. However the specs are displayed on a page after I searched for EESTOR via Yahoo "EESTOR Gets a Trademark Patent on EESU and provide" .

It is not clear whether the 24 Volt is kept constant or like a capacitor goes down, or that they with Buck technology and switching technology keep it reasonable flat. I just took a gamble and halved the voltage to be on the save side. If it is true that 24 x 26,7 Amperhours = 0,64 Kwhr of energy is held in 2,2 Kg of weight, not only save I myself USA dollar 12000 but also the weight is then only +/- 420 kG.\
But you are probably right, those super capacitors can handle charging and discharging currents of 3000 Ampere each and I would like to stay alive.

Back to older proven technology. I have a boatplan from New Zealand for a 29 feet sailingyacht. I probably carry on with that one.

The Hollanders have already sold production quantities on Hybrids since 2002. I will ask for a quote on the smallest one they have to offer and use that on this design.

It will take me in anyway 2 years to build the boat and with the Obama administartion keen to improve Nickel Metal Hybrid technology, by that time I probably will have a choice between a Super Capicitors and NiMH battery.

Thanks again to both of you

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by CDK

The TV news item mentioned a motor that could be incorporated in the wheel hub and would also be used as a brake, so a DC motor is most likely.
My knowledge isn't up to date, the most powerful magnetic material I am familiar with is of the rare earth type, like Samarium-Cobalt. Are there really permanent magnets 100 times stronger than that?

There have been considerable advancement in motor/controller technology in the last couple of years. The permanent magnet synchronous motors are beautifully simple engineering. I have a few of them ranging in size from 50W to 4.5kW.

This video clip is the latest one I have that I have set up for a couple of purposes (it will take a minute or two for the clip to download - turn your sound on):
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...nigy_motor.wmv
The motor weighs 149 grams, can produce over 600W and cost USD24. It turns over the little belt reduction with only 2W. I have since added another reduction stage with a larger toothed belt so I can run a full size boat with it and this takes 6W to turn over at a few hundred rpm. This motor should get my boat up to 9kts or so with a battery that can supply the required current.

This combination of motor and controller is capable of regenerative braking down to low speed.

They are called "outrunner" motors because the casing actually spins - you can observe this if you look closely at the clip. I guess this helps cooling. They are synchronous motors so no slip and have very low winding resistance. The controllers have the in-built ability to adjust to different motors so they operate at optimum efficiency through the speed range. Some of these motors get efficiency as high as 93%.

The range of Turnigy SK motors is shown here:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...0&ParentCat=59

The large PMSM motors use phase locking with field monitoring but it is not needed for boating applications. You do not need fine speed control at low rpm. A 20HP diesel needs to be producing 16HP to deliver the same torque that my 4.5kW Mars motor will produce at standstill. Makes sense for a car but not for a boat because the torque required to just turn a prop over at low rpm is very low.

Rick W

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by masalai

Write a PM to Manie, Fanie or Wynand as they are all saffas... for my 2 cents

Possibly around September 09 - give or take a year, the US economy will collapse in a heap of despair.... so days of big powerboats will be numbered to not much more than 5 or 10 years if the global economy picks up if not there will be shortages as no demand because of no money....

What?--- this is terrible news, but but I thought the world had more oil than its used so far.

I wish all you guys would go and get solar panels and the like and then we diesel guys can carry on with cheap diesel.

Mas ,-- will I get married ? will I meet a dark tall stranger?

I was watching Star Trek last night and there is some radiation that even the star ship Enterprise didnt have. Data explained that we did not have it yet but the Romulins did. So if we can get some of that before this Sept we may not be in such trouble.

[BertKu]

This video clip is the latest one I have that I have set up for a couple of purposes (it will take a minute or two for the clip to download - turn your sound on):
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boa...nigy_motor.wmv
The motor weighs 149 grams, can produce over 600W and cost USD24. It turns over the little belt reduction with only 2W. I have since added another reduction stage with a larger toothed belt so I can run a full size boat with it and this takes 6W to turn over at a few hundred rpm. This motor should get my boat up to 9kts or so with a battery that can supply the required current.

Hi Rick,

I went into a website : "http://www.bellmann.nu" and the high pitch noise in your movie confirmed in what they said about this kind of motor. Click on "english flag" click on technical and go down to various motors they are using for their electric systems. Their systems are not cheap.

BertKu

[masalai]

BertKu, - - Your link does not work? - - You must copy and paste the full address - the system will truncate, but if you copy the truncated address it will be truncated and NOT WORK.... - - - one cannot get more power out of nothing, at best efficient use of that power... See the Cruise models here http://www.torqeedo.com/us/hn/home.html - My sail-boat is 39ft x 21 ft cat weighing 4500kg ready to depart on an extended voyage, with 2 x 4.0-R electric outboards giving about 5 knots in calm waters.... Get real and you will not be disappointed... Continuous rating is 2000W each....

Bert, to let the boatdesign.net system make a web address active, remove the "quotes" and add a space at either end " Thusly "... I like the bellmann stuff, a great range but very expensive... Torqeedo are a little less....