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  #121  
Old 08-14-2010, 11:06 AM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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Frank Smith you picture and discription does not say one damned thing about that boat. Nor does it address the problems with Goodwilltoall's design. Seriously.
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  #122  
Old 08-14-2010, 11:10 AM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
Frank,

Thats a very interesting boat. Do you have more info on it? Ray Hunt designed many 6-1 boats with flat bottoms and slab sides. The boats are known for being fast and good handling. For thier time, it was unusual to have the deep draft fin keels he used. Still need to figure out how jubilee can sail without deep draft and off course smaller sails are required, so less speed.
Sorry no I dont. I think these were light disp. boats, so would not be the same as the work horse kind of boat you are thinking of.
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  #123  
Old 08-14-2010, 11:19 AM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre R View Post
Frank Smith you picture and discription does not say one damned thing about that boat. Nor does it address the problems with Goodwilltoall's design. Seriously.
That was not my intention , but it does show a slab sided box hull that is a
sailing boat. So i think you will agree that it has been done .
It is also not my intention to design Goodwilltoall's boat.
Perhaps you can fill in the blanks for him.
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  #124  
Old 08-14-2010, 11:52 AM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank smith View Post
That was not my intention , but it does show a slab sided box hull that is a
sailing boat. So i think you will agree that it has been done .
Every possible piece of junk has been built into a sailboat including a bath tub. That is not the point here. The point is the intended use as designated by Goodwilltoall.

I do not see what I was refering to as slab sided on that Hunt sailboat. Secondly, how do we know what the underwater lines are as you have not posted a midsection plan. In fact you admit to knowing very little about this boat. The two boat are likely not even close and not even close on intended purpose. Apparently you meant for you post to simply point out that there are narrow beam relatively flat bottom sailboat designs out there which is fine but your post leads to this.
Quote:
Frank,

Thats a very interesting boat. Do you have more info on it? Ray Hunt designed many 6-1 boats with flat bottoms and slab sides. The boats are known for being fast and good handling. For thier time, it was unusual to have the deep draft fin keels he used. Still need to figure out how jubilee can sail without deep draft and off course smaller sails are required, so less speed.
To me this Hunt design and Goodwilltoall's intended purpose don't match. Also, the beam at the waterline on the Hunt is not the same as the beam at the rail. That does not translate to slab sided. In Goodwilltoall's midesection plan it looks like a coffin. The same beam at the chine as at the sheer. When a wave hit that its like hitting a breakwall. The boat will snap roll something terrible. I dare say the Hunt was intended to beat some rule and be cheap to build at the time for day sailing and racing, not crossing oceans.

To me Goodwilltoall would be far better off taking the $12k and enrolling in Westlawn or McNaugton. In the long run he would save much time, headache and money.

One thing is for certain, If Goodwilltoall proceeds as he has planned he will pay for his education one way or another but, the informal way is more expensive and time consuming in the long run. Been there and done that, never again.
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  #125  
Old 08-14-2010, 01:07 PM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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Why do you think it will snap roll something terrible? Any boat will roll ,
I dont see this shape as that much different .
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  #126  
Old 08-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank smith View Post
Why do you think it will snap roll something terrible? Any boat will roll ,
I dont see this shape as that much different .
Experience and a fair understanding of design tells me that his design is not going to perform to what he wants. Goodwilltoall is runing on misguided assumptions about what design is all about.

Part of the problem is that Goodwilltoall has not really laid out why he wants to build this boat and what he expects it to do. We don't know if he has a devine calling or a desire to build a really cheap boat cuz he has no money or if he is a tree hugger hell bent on saving the planet with some sort of mission statement in a boat.

The direction he is going is not the direction I would take where I to want to travel in a boat.

With $12,000 as a budget I would eliminate the desire to cross an ocean. Cha Ching, we can save a bundle. I would eliminate two forms of propulsion as in, kiss the sailing rig good bye. Cha Ching, more money saved. I suppose if I wanted to stick to what he seems to want in a boat I would get with Mystic Seaport Museum and get a set of plans for Bill Garden's Tlingit and have at it with the Home Depot lumber and epoxy. I would look around for something like a Sabb 2H with controllable pitch propeller on the cheap. For $12k and a years work I would be out havin fun. Cruise speed would be 10 knots on a little under a gallon per hour. You could go to Florida and Back to Cleveland on 300 gallons of fuel. That is like a crusing budget for fuel of less than a grand a year.
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  #127  
Old 08-14-2010, 01:46 PM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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I have a link to a discussion on Tlingit here on the forums last fall.
Missing Bill Garden designed launch - Anybody seen it?
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  #128  
Old 08-14-2010, 02:03 PM
goodwilltoall goodwilltoall is offline
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Pierre,

Did some checking around, the 510 is slab sided and flat bottom, it is one in a series (110,210,310,410, &510) with all of them beign 6-1 ratios.
Also know about Tlinglet, that one is just a engine boat-no sails.

The 110 & 210 were excellent sailing boats, for jubilee the draft is to be thin water use, therefore need to figure proper sails and ballast.
Further the boat could be used as strictly with an engine until sails are put on. The problem with this would be that the "V" shape wouldnt be working to provide a smoother ride and some sails if just only riding sails would be beneficial to provide a more stable ride with less rolling and also a get home measure if the engine fails.

Peace.
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  #129  
Old 08-14-2010, 02:30 PM
apex1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
Pierre,

Did some checking around, the 510 is slab sided and flat bottom, it is one in a series (110,210,310,410, &510) with all of them beign 6-1 ratios.
Also know about Tlinglet, that one is just a engine boat-no sails.

The 110 & 210 were excellent sailing boats, for jubilee the draft is to be thin water use, therefore need to figure proper sails and ballast.
Further the boat could be used as strictly with an engine until sails are put on. The problem with this would be that the "V" shape wouldnt be working to provide a smoother ride and some sails if just only riding sails would be beneficial to provide a more stable ride with less rolling and also a get home measure if the engine fails.

Peace.
Goody,

as Pierre already mentioned, you would be better away to tell the audience what your real intention is, instead of dreaming on about the "Oviparouswoolmilkpig".

A proper SOR would be nice to start your planning. The so named "design spiral" will then soon tell you what is within your plans and possibilities and what not.

The Design Spiral, or where to start building a boat.

Spreading your (usually wrong) opinions about different designs around on the board does neither help you, nor does it entertain the members.

Regards
Richard
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  #130  
Old 08-14-2010, 02:44 PM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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I am regreting using the word "slab sided" as a chide Goodwilltoall as you did not understand it. I kinda meant totally vertical hull sides from sheer to chine as in your drawing.
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  #131  
Old 08-14-2010, 03:21 PM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
Further the boat could be used as strictly with an engine until sails are put on. The problem with this would be that the "V" shape wouldnt be working to provide a smoother ride and some sails if just only riding sails would be beneficial to provide a more stable ride with less rolling and also a get home measure if the engine fails.

Peace.
What in the world are you talking about here with this "V"?
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  #132  
Old 08-14-2010, 03:27 PM
goodwilltoall goodwilltoall is offline
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Pierre,

The Ray Hunt sailboats are totally vertical sided and flat bottomed, the only difference is that at the chine there is about a 3" radius, and maybe the hull height is more than 60% of hull beam, not sure. Guess that cross section drawing shown in post #1 would be a close approximation to midbody section.

Apex,

Tell us what the wrong opinions are so they can be corrected. There are many descriptions describing what the boat would be used for in previous posts, what else do you want to know about the intended purposes?

What is the meaning of "oviparouswoolpig"?
Also dont know what the acronym SOR stands for.

The "V" would be the shape the hull would see at the water when sailing heeled, though as Bolger said the efficient heel for this type of hull is 10-15% which wouldnt be much but it would help some.
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  #133  
Old 08-14-2010, 03:54 PM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
Pierre,

The Ray Hunt sailboats are totally vertical sided and flat bottomed, the only difference is that at the chine there is about a 3" radius, and maybe the hull height is more than 60% of hull beam, not sure. Guess that cross section drawing shown in post #1 would be a close approximation to midbody section.
Unless my eyes are deceiving me the Hunt sailboat is not totally vertical on the sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
Tell us what the wrong opinions are so they can be corrected.
Prime example

Quote:
The "V" would be the shape the hull would see at the water when sailing heeled, though as Bolger said the efficient heel for this type of hull is 10-15% which wouldnt be much but it would help some.
The things that contribute to a good ride are the very things that you think contribute to a poor ride. Increasing static/ initial stability does not equate to a better ride most of the time. This is a notion that you are rejecting even though its been pointed out. Ride is a peceived motion on the body and not an absolute. In addition to static stability, which most people understand, there is also dynamic stability and ultimate stability.
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  #134  
Old 08-14-2010, 03:55 PM
goodwilltoall goodwilltoall is offline
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Another description of boat use would be to limit stops at marina's. If proper provisioning is made for long journeys the more secluded areas would become favourable destinations. With collecting water on the hull, selfcomposting head with urine and hard waste seperated, and occasionally fishing this can become a reality for upto several months of cruising. With the shallow draft capabilities, natives to areas like the Bahamas would be encountered more often and regular one on one trading patterns could be developed with them.

Would like to add more space and displacement but the design is filled up with most of the necessary requirements.

Once the sail and ballast system is settled a simple build can commence that perhaps a couple with small children can easily afford and if smartly handled (with off course good seamanship skills) should be able to provide the qualities as mentioned at beginning of thread -Safe, affordable, and seaworthy.

Once boat is built incremental testing of designed qualities can be proven, with looking at predecesor boats of similiar design, good results can be expected. This in not all that new and can be done.
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  #135  
Old 08-14-2010, 04:06 PM
apex1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
Apex,

Tell us what the wrong opinions are so they can be corrected. There are many descriptions describing what the boat would be used for in previous posts, what else do you want to know about the intended purposes?

What is the meaning of "oviparouswoolpig"?
Also dont know what the acronym SOR stands for.
Well,

following the advice is always a better choice than drivelling on!

So read what our patient and knowledgable members told you, and follow the links, it is easy to grasp, even for a completely biased novice like you!

Quote:
With the shallow draft capabilities, natives to areas like the Bahamas would be encountered more often and regular one on one trading patterns could be developed with them.
I laugh my socks off............. natives...Bahamas...

The former post shows again, you are still just dreaming and have near to zero experience at sea, less on boat building and even far less on boat design. So why donīt you go to the thread I linked to?

And "Oviparouswoolmilkpig" is a self explaining term!

Richard
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