Affordable seaworthy cruiser

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall

Greetings,

Pierre, That makes sense in post 116 where you explain an uncomfortable motion in relation to light displacement. That is one further reason to keep the long length and narrow beam to assist in the comfort factor. The 6-1 ratio needs to be kept, if even a narrow beam ratio of say 4-1 in a shallow draft and light weight boat is designed the pounding would be even more pronounced and definitely not acceptable. Not sure if any other place has chop as bad as Lake Erie so hope those conditions are limited there.

Since there are so few boats designed this long, was wondering if the benefits of long length are really being considered. In past times low powered boats seemed to follow that rule much more than is done today. Wider boat can carry more sail but a narrower hull is more efficient, also when the weather turns rough the narrower boat is more able to continue on, parting the waves more easily.

Goodwilltoall you are flat out making a lot of assumptions based on hearsay. It's not all that hard to design around everything that you have said above and make it irrelavent. At the same time adhering to your assumptions above as gospel is likely to get the livin snot beat out of you. It's not about porportions but how the shape and weight of the boat are affected and interacted with natural waves. Waves have a rolling action and do not like shallow slab sided boats with sharp chines.

You are basically trying to make a 50' Home Depot war canoe with a stick and a sail. Next you say.

Ocean journeys would be about 5%, the other 95% would the overlooked areas most sailboats are not able to enter. Rivers, canals, marshes, estuaries, coral reefs, beaches, tidal flats, etc. This is the reason for the emphasis on shallow draft and retractable attachments. Have not found another monohull sailboat able in those areas with the accomodations drawn and an ocean journier. The compromise is made to have shallow draft capability and slower boat rather than deep keel and more speed.

Ahh an Ocean crosser? Have you bothered to get any of those suggested books yet?

Some of those areas would require an engine, a diesel paddlewheel still seems appropriate. Duckworks just had an article about a small type paddlewheel installation that performed satisfactorily and the original steam powered ships were all paddlewheeled. The most difficult part would be to make an adjustable paddlewheel. Set a kubota diesel on a steel plate plate bolted into concrete ballast with pulley or chain connecting paddlewheel.

Ahhhhh Whhhhaaaat? ON A WAR CANOE! Well at least I don't think you will find another like er, at least not floating.

[frank smith]

This is a Ray Hunt 510 , 38' x 6'-6 ', draft of 5'6" slab sided flat bottom
I dont know what the rest of the specs. are .

You should talk to a naval architect .

[goodwilltoall]

Frank,

Thats a very interesting boat. Do you have more info on it? Ray Hunt designed many 6-1 boats with flat bottoms and slab sides. The boats are known for being fast and good handling. For thier time, it was unusual to have the deep draft fin keels he used. Still need to figure out how jubilee can sail without deep draft and off course smaller sails are required, so less speed.

[Pierre R]

Frank Smith you picture and discription does not say one damned thing about that boat. Nor does it address the problems with Goodwilltoall's design. Seriously.

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall

Frank,

Thats a very interesting boat. Do you have more info on it? Ray Hunt designed many 6-1 boats with flat bottoms and slab sides. The boats are known for being fast and good handling. For thier time, it was unusual to have the deep draft fin keels he used. Still need to figure out how jubilee can sail without deep draft and off course smaller sails are required, so less speed.

Sorry no I dont. I think these were light disp. boats, so would not be the same as the work horse kind of boat you are thinking of.

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

Frank Smith you picture and discription does not say one damned thing about that boat. Nor does it address the problems with Goodwilltoall's design. Seriously.

That was not my intention , but it does show a slab sided box hull that is a
sailing boat. So i think you will agree that it has been done .
It is also not my intention to design Goodwilltoall's boat.
Perhaps you can fill in the blanks for him.

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by frank smith

That was not my intention , but it does show a slab sided box hull that is a
sailing boat. So i think you will agree that it has been done .

Every possible piece of junk has been built into a sailboat including a bath tub. That is not the point here. The point is the intended use as designated by Goodwilltoall.

I do not see what I was refering to as slab sided on that Hunt sailboat. Secondly, how do we know what the underwater lines are as you have not posted a midsection plan. In fact you admit to knowing very little about this boat. The two boat are likely not even close and not even close on intended purpose. Apparently you meant for you post to simply point out that there are narrow beam relatively flat bottom sailboat designs out there which is fine but your post leads to this.

Frank,

Thats a very interesting boat. Do you have more info on it? Ray Hunt designed many 6-1 boats with flat bottoms and slab sides. The boats are known for being fast and good handling. For thier time, it was unusual to have the deep draft fin keels he used. Still need to figure out how jubilee can sail without deep draft and off course smaller sails are required, so less speed.

To me this Hunt design and Goodwilltoall's intended purpose don't match. Also, the beam at the waterline on the Hunt is not the same as the beam at the rail. That does not translate to slab sided. In Goodwilltoall's midesection plan it looks like a coffin. The same beam at the chine as at the sheer. When a wave hit that its like hitting a breakwall. The boat will snap roll something terrible. I dare say the Hunt was intended to beat some rule and be cheap to build at the time for day sailing and racing, not crossing oceans.

To me Goodwilltoall would be far better off taking the $12k and enrolling in Westlawn or McNaugton. In the long run he would save much time, headache and money.

One thing is for certain, If Goodwilltoall proceeds as he has planned he will pay for his education one way or another but, the informal way is more expensive and time consuming in the long run. Been there and done that, never again.

[frank smith]

Why do you think it will snap roll something terrible? Any boat will roll ,
I dont see this shape as that much different .

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by frank smith

Why do you think it will snap roll something terrible? Any boat will roll ,
I dont see this shape as that much different .

Experience and a fair understanding of design tells me that his design is not going to perform to what he wants. Goodwilltoall is runing on misguided assumptions about what design is all about.

Part of the problem is that Goodwilltoall has not really laid out why he wants to build this boat and what he expects it to do. We don't know if he has a devine calling or a desire to build a really cheap boat cuz he has no money or if he is a tree hugger hell bent on saving the planet with some sort of mission statement in a boat.

The direction he is going is not the direction I would take where I to want to travel in a boat.

With $12,000 as a budget I would eliminate the desire to cross an ocean. Cha Ching, we can save a bundle. I would eliminate two forms of propulsion as in, kiss the sailing rig good bye. Cha Ching, more money saved. I suppose if I wanted to stick to what he seems to want in a boat I would get with Mystic Seaport Museum and get a set of plans for Bill Garden's Tlingit and have at it with the Home Depot lumber and epoxy. I would look around for something like a Sabb 2H with controllable pitch propeller on the cheap. For $12k and a years work I would be out havin fun. Cruise speed would be 10 knots on a little under a gallon per hour. You could go to Florida and Back to Cleveland on 300 gallons of fuel. That is like a crusing budget for fuel of less than a grand a year.

[Pierre R]

I have a link to a discussion on Tlingit here on the forums last fall.
Missing Bill Garden designed launch - Anybody seen it?

[goodwilltoall]

Pierre,

Did some checking around, the 510 is slab sided and flat bottom, it is one in a series (110,210,310,410, &510) with all of them beign 6-1 ratios.
Also know about Tlinglet, that one is just a engine boat-no sails.

The 110 & 210 were excellent sailing boats, for jubilee the draft is to be thin water use, therefore need to figure proper sails and ballast.
Further the boat could be used as strictly with an engine until sails are put on. The problem with this would be that the "V" shape wouldnt be working to provide a smoother ride and some sails if just only riding sails would be beneficial to provide a more stable ride with less rolling and also a get home measure if the engine fails.

Peace.

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall

Pierre,

Did some checking around, the 510 is slab sided and flat bottom, it is one in a series (110,210,310,410, &510) with all of them beign 6-1 ratios.
Also know about Tlinglet, that one is just a engine boat-no sails.

The 110 & 210 were excellent sailing boats, for jubilee the draft is to be thin water use, therefore need to figure proper sails and ballast.
Further the boat could be used as strictly with an engine until sails are put on. The problem with this would be that the "V" shape wouldnt be working to provide a smoother ride and some sails if just only riding sails would be beneficial to provide a more stable ride with less rolling and also a get home measure if the engine fails.

Peace.

Goody,

as Pierre already mentioned, you would be better away to tell the audience what your real intention is, instead of dreaming on about the "Oviparouswoolmilkpig".

A proper SOR would be nice to start your planning. The so named "design spiral" will then soon tell you what is within your plans and possibilities and what not.

The Design Spiral, or where to start building a boat.

Spreading your (usually wrong) opinions about different designs around on the board does neither help you, nor does it entertain the members.

Regards
Richard

[Pierre R]

I am regreting using the word "slab sided" as a chide Goodwilltoall as you did not understand it. I kinda meant totally vertical hull sides from sheer to chine as in your drawing.

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by goodwilltoall

Further the boat could be used as strictly with an engine until sails are put on. The problem with this would be that the "V" shape wouldnt be working to provide a smoother ride and some sails if just only riding sails would be beneficial to provide a more stable ride with less rolling and also a get home measure if the engine fails.

Peace.

What in the world are you talking about here with this "V"?

[goodwilltoall]

Pierre,

The Ray Hunt sailboats are totally vertical sided and flat bottomed, the only difference is that at the chine there is about a 3" radius, and maybe the hull height is more than 60% of hull beam, not sure. Guess that cross section drawing shown in post #1 would be a close approximation to midbody section.

Apex,

Tell us what the wrong opinions are so they can be corrected. There are many descriptions describing what the boat would be used for in previous posts, what else do you want to know about the intended purposes?

What is the meaning of "oviparouswoolpig"?
Also dont know what the acronym SOR stands for.

The "V" would be the shape the hull would see at the water when sailing heeled, though as Bolger said the efficient heel for this type of hull is 10-15% which wouldnt be much but it would help some.