Affordable seaworthy cruiser

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by goodwilltoall, Jul 31, 2010.

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  1. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Bataan,

    You have good ideas but still donts think you can beat $2,000.00 for homedepot lumber and maybe $3,000.00 for epoxy. This makes lighter boat so less sails and everything else.

    1/8" is for small yacht, this boat needs 3/16".

    Where's Apes?

    Peace.
     
  2. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Apes?? Don't understand.
    3mm is for a 40 foot round bilge yacht, per Lloyd's rules. 4mm may be best for your flat sections. Welding a hull this thin without significant buckling problems calls for a lot of skill and experience. I live in a town with a large commercial vessel presence and see steel new builds and repairs often. None of them is easy or quick. I have a good friend who is a certified boiler welder and he always points out subtleties about metal working I'd never see.
    I still doubt your wood and epoxy cost figures, because if you expect the Home Depot low-grade softwood ply to last more than a couple of years, it's necessary to give every surface at least 2 coats of sealing epoxy before assembly. I usually coat the sheets first before cutting out parts, putting the first alcohol-thinned coat on with a heat gun and a squeegee. This application of thinned epoxy on hot wood pulls the resin into the surface as it cools and really seals it up. My plywood skiff, built in 1994 of birch ply, is still on its original Awlgrip paint job because the surface is so stable.
    Building with ply and epoxy can give a very good boat, but it's not easy to do a good job, nor is it as quick as we would like. I'm a pro and spent 90 hours building a simple 11 foot skiff using this method. Plank and frame would have taken less than half the time but I wanted the strength and low maintenance of epoxied ply with Polyurethane paint because dinghies get abused and neglected.
    A 50 foot boat will not go together as easily or simply as you fantasize it will, unless you have very low standards of craftsmanship and finish.
    Several rules...
    It will take twice as long as you think it should.
    Problems will constantly arise you never imagined could exist.
    The real thing looks SO much different than it did in 2d on a sheet of paper.
    It will take over every facet of your life until there is nothing else left.
     
  3. MatthewDS
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    MatthewDS Senior Member

    Goodwilltoall,

    You are too focused on individual costs, and you can't see the big picture. The 200,000-400,000 dollar figures are born of experience.

    For example, steel costs $7,700. Okay, fine. How much for expendables? How will you cut it out? Oxygen and Acetylene are not free. Welding rod and gas will set you back several more thousand dollars. Blasting? Coating? What about the engine? A new diesel engine will probably run you $10,000, plus thousands more for gages, controls, and misc.
     
  4. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Goodwilly,
    I must say, and don't get me wrong because it's with respect:
    Look at the photos above. If you start a 50 foot boatbuilding project based on your current deep ignorance combined with arrogance, this is what you will feel like as you discover exciting new problems that threaten to ruin everything. And don't say you won't, as that just makes your beginner's lack of experience more obvious.
    I'm going to quote a NA of 60 years experience, starting in 1919, and working professionally for the entire history of motorboat development. He said he would never rely on paper 2D plans alone, but always made a flotational model, and was often shocked at the resulting difference between theoretical and actual performance and appearance.
    ...."Each of these men's personally held opinion of his own boat expertise and infallibility usually is in inverse proportion to his experience. Each man is an expert in his own eyes. This truth must by why there is no game on earth full of self-anointed experts as is the boat business.
    The schoolboy just naturally knows that his drawn waterline is right. The man just back from his third boat ride has ideas that will revolutionize boat shapes because he just found out what water is-he thinks he has invented it. The executive-type man has been used to issuing orders. Therefore the boat he pictures will do what he dreams she will because he has ordered it."
    -Weston Farmer
    Your idea is a significant departure from the usual practice and if you are too lazy or ignorant to build a flotational model to make sure the idea works, how can you build the real thing unless you're deeply stupid or just blindly arrogant about your infallibility?
    Peace.
     

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  5. ms.lau
    Joined: Sep 2010
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    ms.lau Junior Member

    this is mad!

    ok, this has gone on long enough. with greatest respect to all, this thread is crazy. goodwilltoall - please put us out of our misery and just BUY a ******* boat. your idea is mad. the whole concept is mad. why not just buy a boat and learn to sail it? it's all going round in circles. build a model with balsa wood, etc. and see how it behaves in the bath. until you see that, there's no point discussing the detail, arguing about the cost, etc.

    when you've done that you'll see what a mad design it is and take advice from bataan and the others OR just buy a boat and learn to sail it. or start designing a car that drives like a shopping cart.

    love and peas
     
  6. BATAAN
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    I must agree with Ms. Lau. Buy a beater used fiberglass sailboat for $3000 and learn to sail it.
     
  7. boat fan
    Joined: Sep 2008
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    boat fan Senior Member

    C`mon guys ....he`s doing great ....

    and ....please ...pass the popcorn !:D:D:D
     
  8. frank smith
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    frank smith Senior Member

    Somehow this thread needed reviving. So how is it going ?

    F
     
  9. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    A couple of years back I happened across a website that offered a rational analysis of how the Ark might have been built. It's jam packed with information and for the benefit of GWTA I post a link.

    http://www.worldwideflood.com/jsmenu/full_menu.htm

    I stress that I make no recommendations as the the feasibility of the project. It's for the general amusement of all and offers readers a few diverting minutes away from reality. Do not let the text seduce. There are delusions enough.
     
  10. u4ea32
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    u4ea32 Senior Member

    Delusions held by one person: insanity.
    Delusions held by many people: religion.

    Arguing with the insane: priceless!
     
  11. frank smith
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    frank smith Senior Member

    What rig would you recommend for this boat ? I was thinking a schooner, or cat ketch .
    What would be the the easiest to build and simple to reef?
     
  12. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Greetings to all and especially to the household of God.
     

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  13. BATAAN
    Joined: Apr 2010
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    BATAAN Senior Member

    Getting there Goodwilly, and your drawing is better. Would probably work but will you actually build it, or is this all just a way to proselytize a bunch of engineers and really building a boat was never in the plan?
    The fact that human stone artifacts 50,000 years old have been found on Crete, indicating a sea-going culture as the island has been isolated for several million years, would show that we human types have been doing this boat thing a long long long time, and those of us who would tread on the waters would do well to learn from those many generations of smart people figuring things out by drowning, and not re-invent the wheel.
    Yes, your boat will work.
    No, it will not be a particularly good boat but will do the jobs you require in a mediocre and not outstanding manner if you are very careful in your construction, since you plan to use sub-standard and readily available materials and must work your design around their limitations.
    As always, I recommend you pick a similar design by a reputable and experienced designer and build that to his specifications.
    Best wishes tilting those windmills.
     
  14. EuroCanal
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    EuroCanal Junior Member

    Your boat looks much better now, and I admire your perseverance with this forum!

    Incremental change and improvement, by selection of the favorable traits from the population of existing designs, has helped your blueprint evolve to something more suited to its intended environment.
     

  15. goodwilltoall
    Joined: Jul 2010
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    goodwilltoall Senior Member

    Here are two recent drawings and hope to get strongback for one started this spring.

    The 50' is what would be the most ideal. There are major differences from the last drawings posted and the reason for that is the aquirement of a SABB 2jz. Original thought was to have outboard, instead a decent deal was found for the diesel and these drawings are the result. The prop is 24.4" and requires a min. of 33" draft for proper running.

    Look at the keels first, they are what would be called a bulb keel. The wider section aft is where the engine would be placed. Before more is said, the intention now is to be tilted more towards engine power rather than sail. The bulb in the back would take care of the engine displacement and the rest of the keel would remain neutral in regards to bouyancy through placement of lead weights inside during construction.

    The 50' is most ideal because: first, the fuel would be center right amidship causing balanced trim no matter how full; second cockpit has no interference looking forward, profile is as low as you can go for standing room in the rest of the hull; and third two berths are amidship as well right above the fuel.

    Steering is whipstaff to allow easy passage in cockpit and what is biggest problem was connecting the cables and thought the best most direct route would be as drawn over the top with just one block each side before attaching to whipstaff. Do have questions in regards to will there be enough leverage with the staff shown to adequately steer.

    BTW, the keel would be definetely necessary now due to emphasis on engine power and as its shown would work as cutwater as well as roll dampening.

    The engine room is truly dedicated to the engine and plenty of room is left for batteries, filters, and tools. The thing most unliked is that the engine has to sit almost in a pit half way but there will be about 6" clearance each side and shouldnt be to difficult to maintain. Just forward of the rudder is a half high bulkhead and this is just in case a rudder leak happens it will prevent water from coming to engine and the 40' drawing would have the air intake in that area allowing the drips to remain isolated.

    Anchor winch is Swain type. Composter in head with hatch above, this would allow composter to be unlatched or bracket unscrewed, then air fan disconnected and boom lift entire unit out for disposal. Much less messy that way. There is a builtin 1.5 gal. holding tank on top painted black which would allow water to warm up or if no sun, then heat some water and pour in. With low flow shower heads I have found one gal. more than plenty to get clean with.

    Found Epon 828 55gal. for $1,250.00 and Epicure 3055 55gal. for $1,143.00, believe this is 2-1 mix. This is considered a safe mix compared to the amines. Epoxy has so many excesses in its quality that the general requirements where for viscosity, flexibility, and tensile. If those are correct the rest really dont matter unless youre extremely highech. For anyone who wants a step up in epoxy quality, Epon 862 bisphenol F is extra $400.00 and cycloaliphatic Epicure 3370 55gal. is $1,689.00, this is top of the line that you cant even get from the big marine formulators and much cheaper.

    For centuries in boatdesign the biggest obstacle in building large has been the tendency for boats to hog (due to longitudinal strength). Now someone before laughed while suggesting tape and seam but if you enlarge it and use wood that is built up in layers you get the same effect of tape and seam. Square hulls make it easy by just cutting the first piece at 45 degrees then layering 1/4" pieces until the desired thichness. With symetrical design the whole hull is a girder. Three watertight bulkheads are still needed and are achieved by leaving a 3/8" space between hull and bulkhead that is caulked with polyurethane. With the heavy engine aft this would allow the hull to still have minor flex yet still maintain stiffness lengthwise.

    The forty footer is the design that most likely will be built. With the addition of the SABB the project becomes much more burdensome especially when the time comes to lift and move to water. Jumped to soon buying the diesel but all is not for naught. Bob Leask a while back posted comments using same engine pushing 30,000# sailboat doing 4knts and burning a quart. At V/L of 1.0, the double ender is at its optimum and doing 6.32knt per hour and 170 miles per day. Have heard oil can be had for buck a gal. in certain countries. Not to big or small a cruising couple should find this boat very adequate for full time use and will prove it so when built. Dink storage still being considered.

    Water tanks, once epoxied they should have metal lath attached to the insides and then coated with two coats of cement, this will prevent the epoxy from leaching into water.

    Theres a few more comments but dont remember them all but will limit my responses as at previous times the little bits a knowledge gathered where miniscule compared to the abuse suffered (no reason to dumpster dive for morsels of food). Hope this is edification to some and costs are still in line for buck a pound displacement as long they dont absurdly devalue the dollar as its seems to be happening now.

    Peace.
     
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