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  #16  
Old 08-01-2010, 03:45 PM
goodwilltoall goodwilltoall is offline
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Eurocanal,

The boat is not 6'-0" beam, it is 8'-4" as stated before draft will also be between 13" and 16".

Do not know what hydrofoils are.

Daggerboards would have been located at centerline of current head location and would have been a 1/2" steel plate appro. 4'x9' connected to winch. This would have made a head and shower to port on one side and hallway between galley and double berth on starboard. I decided against this so that is would give a comfortable bathroom and people would be less inclined to have to dock at the marine for a "real bathroom".

Second, as most know daggerboards need constant attention in shoal areas.
It caused concern and decided leeboards (although not as efficient) would be safer.

Again I ask if there are problems with the merits of the design please address those so they can be corrected. This is the reason for posting this tread.
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  #17  
Old 08-01-2010, 04:08 PM
EuroCanal EuroCanal is offline
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Beam and draft

You said the boat displaces about 13,000 lbs - that works out at about 210 cubic ft of water. The length of the boat multiplied by the average beam multiplied by the average draft must be equal to this figure.

Based on the drawings, I concluded that 8'4" was the maximum beam (not average), and similarly the maximum draft was 16". I guessed 6' and 8" based on the equation: 50' x 6' x 8" x 62 lbs/ft3 = 12,400 lbs.

Here is a picture of a hydrofoil. It is like a wing that lifts the boat out of the water. You need a very light boat for this to work well, but you will benefit from a faster cruising speed:

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  #18  
Old 08-01-2010, 06:11 PM
sal's Dad sal's Dad is offline
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You asked for some feedback; here is mine:

First, perhaps you could provide a bit of information about your experience, requirements, and dreams.

If your objective is to go sailing, there are many proven designs that will get you on the water this summer, for far less money than you have estimated.

If your objective is to build a boat, build your kayak, your dinghy, then your big outboard tender, to get solid experience with materials, tools, and technologies. Then spend a few bucks on a professional design, and follow the plans.

If your objective is to design your own boat, first charter or buy/sell several different models, so you get a good feel for the subtleties, and your needs. design and build a 20 footer, just to get the hang of it.

Only then should you seriously take on a project of this size - multi-year, and far more money than you are thinking now.

The design looks very like a Bolger. Have you spoken with Suzanne about your requirements? What, specifically, do you dislike about Loose Moose, or the other proven designs, that causes you to go your own way?

Sal's Dad
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  #19  
Old 08-01-2010, 11:29 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
From careful study, the proportions of Noah,s ark have the qualities of excellent seaworthiness and efficiency. The design that I have come up with is 50' overall.

The formula for The Ark is: length 300 x beam 50 x hull depth 30.

Following above proportions, proposed cruiser dimensions above would be: length 50'-0" x 8'-4" beam x hull depth 5'-0".
Basing your design parameters on a literary work of fiction doesn't seem to be the best direction if you want a decent result.
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  #20  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:10 AM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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Sounds like a Bolger box. Why not just enlarge the AS39?
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  #21  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:02 PM
kerosene kerosene is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodwilltoall View Post
From careful study, the proportions of Noah,s ark have the qualities of excellent seaworthiness and efficiency. The design that I have come up with is 50' overall.

The formula for The Ark is: length 300 x beam 50 x hull depth 30.

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It seems absurd but construction will be home depot lumber, but not so absurd when you consider "quality builders" have used balsa core which is much more prone to rot and has virtually no strength to build high end boats (that surprisingly are still around and doing quite well).

---

Will add more info upon request but overall cost can be kept under $12,000.00
1.
Quite clever of Noah to build his boat with such round numbers. Would suck if the boat had been
311.7' long 52.49' wide. of course for metric people that would have been handy as it would have been 95m x 16m

I am trying to point out that ancient hear say - while the lesson and teaching might be of value - is probably not the most accurate or otherwise best technical reference. I would for example suggest that Nat Herreshoff was better boat designer than Noah and much more reliable data of his findings can be found in the library.

2.
You say that homedepot wood is fine as crappy foams and balsa is used in core structures. yet you will not use any kind of skin reinforcement. That has to be optimistic ignorance at works because clearly you are comparing apples and oranges.
In sandwich structures it is important to have strong inner and outer layer - the core material can be much weaker (but not total crap) as its main purpose is to add thickness and thus stiffness. you can use shittiest wood if you so choose but then you need proper reinforcement in and out.

3.
12,000$ - really for a 50' boat? and this is going to be your 1st boat? Not gonna happen. And seaworthy - that design is not seaworthy in traditional sense. With luck you might get to places but in bad weather you will be in trouble. Of course crazy french man crossed the Atlantic in 15ft rubber boat (or similar dimensions) and lived to tell the tale... that doesn't mean his boat was seaworthy.
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  #22  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:40 PM
EuroCanal EuroCanal is offline
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Home Depot

The American Families Association suggest you should boycott Home Depot. As a European, I don't fully comprehend why, but it has something to do with promoting "diversity", whatever that means. This is a bad thing in America, apparently.
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  #23  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:08 PM
MatthewDS MatthewDS is offline
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Why build a boat at all? If you are going to base your nautical adventures on biblical stories, why not just walk on water? That seems like the cheapest alternative, and seaworthy too!

On a more serious note, Messabout is correct, if such a thing had actually existed, the ark would have been pitch covered papayrus or straw, and made for inland waters, rivers and lakes, only.

If authenticity is your goal, look into "The Tigris Expedition" by Thor Heyerdahl. The Tigris was a reproduction of an Egyptian reed ship that would not have been out of place in biblical times.
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  #24  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:20 PM
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hoytedow hoytedow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
Basing your design parameters on a literary work of fiction doesn't seem to be the best direction if you want a decent result.
Whatever your opinion about the feasibility of the proposed project, your referring to the Holy Bible as a "literary work of fiction" is unacceptable to me.
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  #25  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:31 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoytedow View Post
Whatever your opinion about the feasibility of the proposed project, your referring to the Holy Bible as a "literary work of fiction" is unacceptable to me.
I am calling a spade a spade. As someone who spent 12 years in Catholic schools I know something about the topic.

Of course you are aware that the flood, the parting of the red sea, the virgin birth, the 12 disciples, turning water to wine, walking on water, the ressurrection, etc. etc are all stories that pre-date bilical writing?

The "Holy Bible" is a collection of stories plagerized/borrowed from various pre-existing "pagan" religions and sects.

I am always amused by fervent religious followers who can't see their beliefs are based on circumstance of birth. I'm sure every person who is a true believer of the "Holy Bilble" would be just as much a true believer in the "Holy Koran" or in the teachings of Buddah if they had been born in another place.
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  #26  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:55 PM
kerosene kerosene is offline
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Paul B, and hoytedow - I know I was poking some fun myself earlier. But lets try to avoid sidetracking too much.
Hoyt - as much as I try to understand that the book is holy to you I would hope that you would try to understand to some of us its just a book.

Its doubtful that either "side" here can convince the other so lets either try to respect each others or take it to the off topic side.
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  #27  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:28 PM
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hoytedow hoytedow is offline
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Don't make disparaging remarks about my faith and I won't make disparaging remarks about your lack of it. This isn't even your thread to begin with.
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  #28  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:23 PM
goodwilltoall goodwilltoall is offline
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Greetings to all,

Will try to respond to all questions, just quickly skimmed over post at this time.

The boat would have to work for appro. 4 people say for one month in bahamas and 8 people on lake Erie.

The atttacks against true christianity and the Scriptures are unfounded. Start another thread to discuss those matters in the open discussion, Jesus the Christ came so that men might have life, His teaching have been a blessing upon the whole earth. Everything He taught was good, and because the religious leaders of His time hated Him and religious leaders today are hippocrites does not give you an excuse to commit evil and not follow His commands, everyone will be judged according to thier deeds.

Now back to the boat design, hydrofoils seem like a complexity so will avoid them.

The as39 was a breakthrough boat, one of the builders was Bob Archibald who built one called wizard. After he sold it he admitted to the fact that when it would come around a bend and pick up the wind that it would buck like a horse. The hull draft was 6'-0" which is way above the 4'-9" it should have had for a 7'-10" beam. This caused the problem.
Second of all at 6 to 1 it should have been 47'-0" long which would have caused more wetted surface but gives a better grip to the waters surface.

Three years ago on a phone conversation with Ben Gray, who did a circumnavigation by his George Buehler designed idlewild going through the NorthWest passage, he recalled his experience crossing the Southern Ocean and mentioned not being able to cook on the stove for nine days because the boat rolled upto 40 degrees. Look at the lines drawing and you will see that the boat had 100% of hull draft compared to hull beam and on top of this the large full standing headroom deckhouse. Off course the boat is proven but that is also an example of extreme hull draft that leads to consequences.

Again, if you can prove that the proportions are not good for seakeeping, efficiency, and safety explain and give a better porportioned monohull design. As you can see the boat overall is not big, comparable to a modern day 35 footer. Using the same methods to build, the longer boat will always be better for seakeeping, efficiency, and safety.

BTW, Ben Gray had a 50hp kubota that averaged 5.4knts per gallon. If you took of the masts and ballast and put in about 25hp kubota in the 50 footer, there is no doubt you would be able to get 15knts per gallon doing about 1.2VL.

Sails and masts: Masts could be cut from trees easily had in this area that grow straight-black cherry, pine, black walnut etc. Unstayed and freestanding. At first they would be wet and heavy, but as time went on would dryout and become stiffer. So if they work at first on test run they'll getter better with time.
Not shown in drawings luff would be 30.5' for 600SF sail area, as a beginner would like more but feel that is a well enough and safe for now. Current thinking is 60s era star sails. With an efficient hull even if under canvassed it will perform well.
Many of those type sails available at used sail lofts. Reason for jib being set back 6'-0" from bow is for safety. Do not like idea of being obstructed by winch and bow rollers and need safe access to work sails. Sails would be hanked on, and all running rigging would terminate at deck until blocks could be afforded and well thought out. For very light winds, it is possible to think of a not quite a spinaker but maybe genaker/genoa attached to top of bow rollers.

The bolger box idea with flat sheer, plumb bow and stern is looked at with contempt, but it had to be done to get the sitting headroom required due to rocker, scantlings, deck camber and still maintain 5'-0" hull height. There is
a slight rake from stem to stern and slight arc will result at sheer because of 4inch crown.

Merchant vessels, military, rescue, pilot, etc. due this all the time to be practical and fulfill intended purposes, no fashion contests there. Simple tools, pieces of equipment, and vessels when they successfully perform their intended purposes and function well are eventually accepted and admired no matter what naysayers say.
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2010, 08:21 PM
wardd wardd is offline
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I believe I'll have another drink
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2010, 09:05 PM
Pierre R Pierre R is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardd View Post
I believe I'll have another drink
After reading that last one, me too.

Lake Erie will trash that design.
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