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  #31  
Old 10-03-2011, 01:06 PM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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Thanks. I didn't find much at the Atkin site. Most of those aluminum boats I can see in wood. I have not seen one with an aft cabin large enough for more than a weekend outing...

I think you're right Cor, finding a professional at some point will be the way to go, having said that, I need a very clear understanding of what I need, what is possible and the cost, otherwise I'm paying someone to teach me as well as design something. I should do that or what I can myself.

I look at this (and other things) as going to an attorney to draft a trust to place my assets in, not asking him how to acquire the assets to put in a trust.
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2011, 03:22 PM
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BATAAN BATAAN is offline
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Here's a cool one. Saw this guy maneuvering in a tiny space, forget where, maybe Lund BC or somewhere in that area about 2 years ago. He came in loaded with an empty cement truck, spun around with inches to spare, unloaded the truck on the ramp, took on a pickup and some more construction equipment, maneuvered back out in a good breeze and was gone to make more money. A real work boat.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2011, 04:00 PM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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Yep, nice at 18 X 60'! Little big for me, LOL

I could drive in like that with a cabin 4' in the air, but sure would be hard to manuver in the wind with a small outboard.

That's pretty cool, you could have a heck of a party on that one!
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  #34  
Old 10-03-2011, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village_Idiot View Post
IIRC, the original landing craft were Higgins boats and used at Normandy. The boat was designed/built by Higgins who grew up on the shallow Platte River near Columbus, NE. The boats were big and heavy and relativly shallow for surf work (they still drafted 4 feet at the stern).

Modern landing craft can draft 2 feet at the stern, depending on where their use is intended. Ocean/surf craft still need some depth for better ocean-going performance (see bill munson's boats), whereas inland lakes/river craft can get away with shallower design and operation.

Attached is a pic of a modern aluminum landing craft designed for inland waters. It is 26'x12', diesel w/ Hamilton jet, loaded with 5.5 tons cargo it drafts 9 inches at the front and 22 inches at the rear.
It turns out the Higgins Boat was not the first, but only the first in modern times.
http://tenthmedieval.wordpress.com/2...landing-ships/

"a door below the waterline could be opened to allow a fully armed and mounted knight to charge directly into battle — rather like a modern landing craft disgorging a tank."
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  #35  
Old 10-04-2011, 03:47 AM
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ACuttle ACuttle is offline
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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
Thanks. I didn't find much at the Atkin site. Most of those aluminum boats I can see in wood. I have not seen one with an aft cabin large enough for more than a weekend outing...
I think you'd be looking for something similar to a medical landing craft:
http://www.alnmaritec.co.uk/downloads/alnDB_69.pdf
Though with less length.

The bow ramp can be minimised to the size of the load so if you only have foot or bike traffic you've got a much better fore shape.

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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
I have a utility trailer that has a 5' ramp, angle with expanded steel floor and 4' wide and I don't have a problem with it. I can see if you had a 12' ramp, one guy might have a problem raising and lowering it.
True, though with a trailer you can lift from under the ramp and (unless you are happy with with wet feet) you'll have more issue lifting from inside the boat.

The other issue with ramps if keeping them low (or folding) to give you forward vision.

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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
I guess I could throw some thoughts out: A beam of 6' and 26' wl, say 28' overall, plywood stich and glue. 3' for the engine and aft are (not much) 14' cabin and 8' cargo area and the rest forward would be open to the bow. Self bailing cago open deck area and aft, the cabin would be tight with higher thresholds. 6' 6" headroom accomodations for two, 4 rarely (not counting anyone who would dare to ride up front. A canvas top could cover the cargo area as well. 42" leeboard I guess. A winch could be used for the ramp.
Seems possible, I'd always look at Aluminium first for any landingcraft, it has too many advantages.

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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
I'm thinking along the lines of a canal boat with the LC bow and more open deck forward.
People seem to mention canal boats in odd ways, is a canal boat different in the rest of the world from the UK?
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  #36  
Old 10-04-2011, 08:32 AM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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A Cuttle, sorry I couldn't download that site, can't get pdf to load....

The width of the opening depends on height of the bow for a motorcycle, my 1600 cruiser can get through 3' below the handle bars, a small one a foot less, as the bars could pass above the bow.

Aluminum "C" channel or ATV ramps would fit inside easily. When I spoke of ramps, it was not necessarily the bow ramp, should have made that clear. The bow ramp could be say 4', the ATV ramp hooks on and extends further out.

If I do this I should not build so close to such specific needs, I have never had an ATV but should probably measure some and make it as versitle as possible.

Raising or lowering a bow ramp could be rigged with a boat trailer winch.

My thought here is not a Higgins LC as those ramps are hard to see around. There is no reason, other than making it easier to get length on the ramp, to have one that high.

Why can't the bow still be a V and simply open it above the waterline as two gates? The ramp could slide out from the sole to fit the bow? If this "gate bow" were pinned closed it could still cut in the water somewhat.
Any thoughts on a bow that opens up?

As to using ATV ramps....imagine wakes hitting the stern and the boat rocking a bit. Loading, I would need to use a small power winch and I'd probably get wet walking the load up quickly at the right time, it would not be easy, but could be done I think. Unloading would be much easier, roking or not, I can give it the gas and be off the ramp pretty quickly. A small boom might help stablizing any load being walked up such a ramp.
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  #37  
Old 10-04-2011, 11:11 AM
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ACuttle ACuttle is offline
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Ah - not sure why that doesn't work for you. Try this:
http://www.alnmaritec.co.uk/boats/bo...gboard_60.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
Aluminum "C" channel or ATV ramps would fit inside easily. When I spoke of ramps, it was not necessarily the bow ramp, should have made that clear. The bow ramp could be say 4', the ATV ramp hooks on and extends further out.
I'm not 100% how you are defining things there, are you meaning having a ramp off the side or by bow ramp, do you mean permanently mounted bow ramp?

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Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
Raising or lowering a bow ramp could be rigged with a boat trailer winch.
Yes, that would work, you don't need much to get a ramp up, you just want it to be simple and reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
My thought here is not a Higgins LC as those ramps are hard to see around. There is no reason, other than making it easier to get length on the ramp, to have one that high.
I'm not quite sure how you are defining this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
Why can't the bow still be a V and simply open it above the waterline as two gates? The ramp could slide out from the sole to fit the bow? If this "gate bow" were pinned closed it could still cut in the water somewhat.
Any thoughts on a bow that opens up?
That's pretty common, it's close to what I meant in my last post. Making a bow ramp full beam is pretty unsuitable unless you really need it for access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
As to using ATV ramps....imagine wakes hitting the stern and the boat rocking a bit. Loading, I would need to use a small power winch and I'd probably get wet walking the load up quickly at the right time, it would not be easy, but could be done I think. Unloading would be much easier, roking or not, I can give it the gas and be off the ramp pretty quickly. A small boom might help stabilizing any load being walked up such a ramp.
I don't have much experience with operations but I would think that if you had the bows properly up on the beach, wave action and removing loads shouldn't rock the boat too much.
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  #38  
Old 10-04-2011, 12:42 PM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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Great site! Thanks, and there are several styles I'd be very happy with. I said pilothouse earlier, a raised wheelhouse aft of a cabin is about what I had in mind and there are several example there. Most are waaay to big for me, but the DB 19, 12, 09 I think are workable. Under 30'....see how this boat has grown? LOL

I think the solution is a V bow, monohull where the bow opens above the waterline as a double gate. The ramps can be pulled or rolled off deck as a gang plank out the front.

Another would be side loading. A davit with a long boom might be a good deal for any direction. There were several there as well.

I have access to a good metal fabrication shop.
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  #39  
Old 10-04-2011, 12:56 PM
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BATAAN BATAAN is offline
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Double gate sounds hard to make tight and strong. How about a lift out or side swing?
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  #40  
Old 10-04-2011, 02:36 PM
Village_Idiot Village_Idiot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
...

As to using ATV ramps....imagine wakes hitting the stern and the boat rocking a bit. Loading, I would need to use a small power winch and I'd probably get wet walking the load up quickly at the right time, it would not be easy, but could be done I think. Unloading would be much easier, roking or not, I can give it the gas and be off the ramp pretty quickly. A small boom might help stablizing any load being walked up such a ramp.
In most cases I've seen retractable spud bars (one on each side of the bow, or at opposite corners of the hull) used. Alternative is to take two lines and tie one to each side of the bow and fasten the ends to anchors on the shoreline (such a steel t-posts or trailer house anchors driven into the ground). You'd be amazed at how stable such a setup can be when the bow is held tight to shore.
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  #41  
Old 10-05-2011, 07:57 AM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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Yes, picking a landing spot needs to be done with care. Searching along rivers with google shows some good spots. Having topo maps may help as well. There are fewer areas than you would think but boat ramps are the most likely. Using a busy ramp really means you need to get in and out quickly. Having a line of boaters staring at you is not a good thing, so not much time to stake out lines.

Lift out bow section is a good possibility. A good gate design with hardware to pin or bolt closed should be tight enough, if it is high enough it won't be cutting too much water. Either way, a lift out might look better and be quicker.

Side gates might be better, on both sides, drive on drive off. A bow arrangement might mean you need to rotate the load to off load. That also means a longer plank/ramp.

Cor has a good little set up, keeping it a V nose may not allow you to actually land....I'm not an engineer.
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  #42  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:42 PM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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Originally Posted by BATAAN View Post
Double gate sounds hard to make tight and strong. How about a lift out or side swing?
Yes, sorry I missed it, since the gate would only need to be three feet wide seems it could lift out or swing from one side. Since this gate would be so high it would not be plowing water while underway, it would just encounter higher seas and hopefully reduce pounding in rougher water.

As to a cabin, do ya think 4' aft deck a 14' cabin and 10' forward would work?
A 28'er with a beam of 6 to 7'? Might get the beam of a flat bottom to 4'....

I doubt I can have this built in aluminum $$$$$, or have Alaskan Boats build it at $$$,$$$. Plywood....
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  #43  
Old 10-18-2011, 02:36 PM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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I've had quite a bit of practice with the Higgins LCVP (Landing Craft for Vehicles and Personnel) and this is one tough boat that could operate in 18" of water.
http://www.higginsmemorial.com/design.asp
Bataan, this was (is) some craft, to big for what we were talking about, but I had no idea of the tunnel hull structure as I thought they were flat bottoms.

Even after reading the description at that site, it's not clear to me:

A deep V that has a reverse curve that turned into a catamaran aft? And I take it the pine log at the bow is simply dead wood added at the bow (?)

Can anyone address this in another way, like in LCs for dummies language?
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  #44  
Old 10-18-2011, 03:04 PM
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BATAAN BATAAN is offline
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The classic Higgins was a universal type first, then became the ramped LCVP. It's a Vee at the bow which quickly goes to a slight reverse Vee, becoming markedly so at the tunnel, then less at the stern. At neutral trim, the top of the tunnel at the transom is just below the water. Fwd of this the tunnel is higher and the big prop well tucked up. There is a stout skeg continuing the fwd part of the keel with a shaft bearing and takes the lower rudder bearing and there is a shallow spade type monkey rudder in front of the screw to help maneuvering astern in getting off beaches. I have some photos in a book on my boat and if I can get down there I'll post them as they tell much more than words.
The basic idea was something you could just crash ashore without it breaking on any almost suitable beach, unload and get off backwards in the surf, made of wood that was available, cheaply and quickly.
On another note, Govt Surveyors closely charting the Southern California coast in the early 1950s used DUKWs, big swimming trucks, to SURF in their job duties. They could run a line of survey points driving on the soft sand beach, then go out through the surf taking soundings, then surf ashore and do it again. This they did in quite bad conditions up to 14' breakers and didn't need a boat. I've seen a book with photos but don't have it myself.
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  #45  
Old 10-19-2011, 08:38 AM
Wavewacker Wavewacker is offline
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I'm somewhat familiar with the "ducks" being close to Branson Mo. The Hershens a have a fleet of them all over the country for tourists and there is a bone yard of them to support the fleet. They do seel some but they are very proud of them and parts are hard to get. They were in the news recently, last year I think, from a disaster where some tourists were killed.

I also found in the Gallery the perfect boat, kinda looked like a modern "canal boat" as a landing craft with a short open front deck, rather large and probably in the 7 figure price range....if it has been built as it was a concept drawing/pic. Several renditions from a trawler style to a houseboat with glass front sliding doors.

The Higgins sounds like a heck of a craft, but those compound curves are not something I would tackle as a first time builder. Not sure if an existing hull would be available at a good price as I would think they would be in the collector's status or like the Ducks...$$$$$$$!

Back to the Galley again, someone had a utility catamaran, large hulls about 14' beam and 27 or so in length. Very economical to operate and appeard to be a simple build. The flat deck has plenty of room for cargo and a simple ramp would be easy to employ.

BTW, found the cat again after alot of searching: The member is Patiras and the picture is Utility Cat, imagine another cabin and taller hulls forwar to provide higher sides....????
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