24m steel ketch

[Clement]

Hello all,

I am new here, and my English may not be very good.
I am wondering if you could give me usefull, plans pictures or any kind of data, and some comments for one of my degree project:

I have to do the preliminary design of 22 to 24m sail boat, for 4 permanent crews, and 12 unexperienced trainees. The virtual sailing club wants to order 10 boats. ( max use: atlantique crossing)

Preliminary decisions. (from parametric analysis and other data):
LOA=24m
BWL=5.05m
Canoe Body Draft=1.08m
BM=2.3m
Steel construction
Ketch rigg
Max allowable draft=2.6m
SA=220sqm. (I aimed to design a stiff boat, Delambauh angle is relatively small.)

I am struggling with the following:
Min Area of the rudder and keel?
As the keel is going to be short, would a bulb be a good idea?
Is a dagger board (flipping) under the keel would be a good idea, lift? drag?
Min Freeboard?

Thanks a lot for your comments.
Clement.

[cgorton]

Here are some thoughts:

A sail training vessel intended for some trans-Atlantic passages shouldn't have a bulb keel. Safety and practicality should come before performance in this application.

Along those same lines, I would not think a daggerboard or centerboard would be desired. This incurs cost and complication. If you're going offshore, use a keel. You could make the keel long (longitudinally) and stay under your 2.6m draft requirement. A longer keel makes balancing the sail plan easier and steering safer.

You also ask about minimum rudder and keel areas. Why? Are you indeed trying to minimize wetted surface for performance. Should performance be high on your list with 12 inexperienced crew aboard? (I don't know, these are questions you have to answer.)

Just my thoughts, I'm sure you'll get plenty of input.

Craig

[Clement]

Thanks Craig,

You are right I should look more for safety, before performance.
But I have seen on Larson and Elliasson Book: "Pinciple of Yacht Design", that the leeway angle is incresing dramaticly, with the aspect ratio of the keel! That is why I try to get the minimum area. I know that it should be a percentage of the sail area, mimum 3%. But this percentage is given for a range up to about 12m LWL, then what would be the percentage for a 22m LWL ketch?

Anyone?

Thanks.

[Grantgardens]

Clement- did you ever complete the project. I am currently trying to pusuade our govrnment to accept three 24 m Ketches for use as young offenders institutions. We have the highest ratio of young offenders in prison in the world. The cheapest government provision is £40000pa the most expensive is £140,000pa. We would sail with a crew of 4, a pastoral team of 4 and 12 young offenders. Each boat would be self-sufficient in terms of food for up to 12 weeks at sea. My constraints are that speed is not an issue but payload is. I also think that a large wheelhouse would be needed as a mess, galley, nav area esp as cruises North would be possible. Constraint of draft also an issue, for some cruising area, but upwind performance not a big issue. If you're still out there it could really help this project to have a dialogue with you and anyone else with views on design requirements. Best Wishes Grant Allan.

[LyndonJ]

Under 60 feet and medium heavy will give you accommodation and a little more comfort from a heavier craft. Particulalry for your area of operation.

But what's the best material for your local yards? Or would you build overseas eg China, SE Asia and sail them back?

A simple Internal fitout will save trillions and is easier in a bigger hull.

[Landlubber]

Grantgardens,

In 1981, I was cruising in Fiji when a sail ship called the Hollandia arrived. She was skippered by a Dutch lady and had a crew of hardened criminals on board. It was her third trip around the world, and every trip resulted in 100% conversion of these bad lads. I questioned her regarding her personal health with so many fellas, she said she was safe as they all protected her en mass and individually. If they managed to round the world, and she signed them off, they were all released from "prison". BUT they all had to be released, so they HAD to work as a team...apparently it worked...you can look up more now you know the name of the vessel then. Good luck. John

[Grantgardens]

Many thanks landlubber, I had heard of this project- the Dutch have always been creative, nowadays the world is different and it will be difficult to enter many countries. My vessels will have to conform to the minimum standards in terms of space, sharing cabins. area for education etc that safety will be more difficult than it was on Hollandia.
Lyndon, I think I will need 24m, as i understand it that is the max size which a yachtmaster ocean UK can skipper. Steel although I would prefer alli although I am told that alli is not so good on larger yachts. I would prefer UK but have not found a yard. I admire allubot in France too. Turkey produces a 24m ketch but it hard to get a price for a basic no frills design. Main thing I need is a super large wheelhouse, everything except sleeping and washing at deck level, and seperate crew quarters, oversized tanks, and stowage and storage. I'll let you know as things progress. Best Wishes Grant

[Tanton]

Michigan Fleet.
They are still lookings for funding. But the vessel might interest you.

[JRMacGregor]

Grant

the old English sailing trawlers were fine seaworthy ketches

As you will know, there are a few still surviving (Vigilance, Keewaydin, Pilgrim etc).

If you liked the sail plan and hullform, you could get a steel version made. A proper building yard with its own design staff (or suitable subcontracted design agency) could arrange the interior, bulkheads etc to meet modern stability regulations.

Yards in Europe are hungry right now - so its the right time to do a deal.

And Holland is not a bad place to think about.

Just a thought ??

Another thought is to google Fifie = SWAN. She is an old ketch rigged Scots sailing fishing boat, about the size you are looking for. She has been restored to allow her to take passengers etc. Downsides compared to the English trawlers are lack of bulwarks etc.

Anyway - even if she is not a good model for you google youtube + swan + "yell sound" for a great video of that boat under sail

Originally Posted by Grantgardens

I think I will need 24m, as i understand it that is the max size which a yachtmaster ocean UK can skipper.

There is no such restriction! The license is restricted to 200 tonnes though. But that can be extended, I have forgotten the max. but think it was 500 t.

Steel although I would prefer alli although I am told that alli is not so good on larger yachts. I would prefer UK but have not found a yard. I admire allubot in France too. Turkey produces a 24m ketch but it hard to get a price for a basic no frills design.

When you need assistance finding a yard in Turkey (a good one), I can assist. I build yachts in Turkey. (not sailing boats).

Best Wishes Grant

Send me a PM if you like further help.

Regards
Richard

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by Grantgardens

Clement- did you ever complete the project. I am currently trying to pusuade our govrnment to accept three 24 m Ketches for use as young offenders institutions. We have the highest ratio of young offenders in prison in the world. The cheapest government provision is £40000pa the most expensive is £140,000pa. We would sail with a crew of 4, a pastoral team of 4 and 12 young offenders. Each boat would be self-sufficient in terms of food for up to 12 weeks at sea. My constraints are that speed is not an issue but payload is.

Do you really think you will be able to make it to Australia in 12 weeks?

Leo.

[Grantgardens]

JR Mac Gregor, many thanks and I agree that the trawlers are great working boats. My favourite is the locally based Excelsior, managed by the inspirational Cirdan Trust. They also have Galadriel a Baltic trader again a fine vessel, uncanny under power as she leaves so little wake. To sell my idea to the government the idea must be to remain at sea. Two yachts cruise of 90 days, fifteen thousand miles or so Harwich to Harwich. A big ask in a team building small yacht.Best Wishes Grant

[Grantgardens]

Leo, I thought " I never said Oz" and then the penny dropped lol.Those who sail know the benefits of cruising for disaffected youngsters. It amazes me that the reason why these projects fail is political fear. Why should offenders be able to take a sea-cruise? In deed I often think the idea would be easier to sell if I wanted to put Hulks in the Thames Estuary! " There is no prisoner who would contrive to be a sailor for a boat is a prison with the risk of drowning" Samuel Johnson. Any way Australia would'nt have us any more. Grant

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by Grantgardens

Leo, I thought " I never said Oz" and then the penny dropped lol.Those who sail know the benefits of cruising for disaffected youngsters. It amazes me that the reason why these projects fail is political fear. Why should offenders be able to take a sea-cruise? In deed I often think the idea would be easier to sell if I wanted to put Hulks in the Thames Estuary! " There is no prisoner who would contrive to be a sailor for a boat is a prison with the risk of drowning" Samuel Johnson. Any way Australia would'nt have us any more. Grant

Glad you got the joke (albeit way after the rest of the class).

Sly digs at Poms aside, I really do sympathise with your idea. My wife was a public defender in the Children's Court. On many a Friday afternoon she would have to argue a similar case: there was a child who was in need of foster care, but the State did not have a place so they asked the Court to imprison the child. And every Friday Kit would argue that it was not appropriate to jail a child who hadn't committed a crime.

I seem to recall that there was a program here in South Australia that involved young offenders and a sailing vessel, but I can't remember exactly who ran it. If I track it down I will PM you.

One difficulty I see is that you will have to argue that you are not placing kids in situations of potential danger. For example, is it appropriate to force a child onto a boat that could experience high seas? What happens if a kid is injured on the vessel? The crew could be in for a long time in the witness box being grilled about their competence, etc. Of course, in reality we know that jails are often very dangerous too, but you are dealing with a very sensitive area of the law.

Best of luck with your project!
Leo.

There is a similar project since 1984 in Hamburg, the Schooner "Undine". She is reportedly the last sailing freighter in Europe.

http://www.undine-von-hamburg.de/riss.html

4 Crew / pedagogues and 8 "offenders" on 29 meter loa, are transporting freight between Scandinavia and Portugal.

Under certain circumstances, I could make a contact with the one who started this project and skippered her for 15 years as the only one crew, with 12 youngsters.

Regards
Richard