2012-boatbuilding -analysis paralysis and- decisions!! decisions!!! grrr(!)

[tugboat]

ok-- this post will be a personal one- one i think anyone who has built a boat before will understand all too well. but need to clarify first a couple things beforehand.
and at the risk of being vulnerable to the usual snipers on here who like to attack rather than have open minded discusions- here goes:

i know some of you, maybe most of you, are going to think this is crazy to base any decisions on future possibilities. however, 2012 is coming. I dont have any real beliefs about what exactly is coming for 2012 maybe nothing maybe something- i never have believed in any stupid y2k crap or any 7th day adventist, or any other religions b.s. about doomsday predictions but 2012 is not the usual doomsday prediction, it is one based on many societies and cultures converging on the same dates or aproximate dates and events..21/12/2012! (i often wonder what time zone this is predicted to take place in first?)

now - you might be wondering what this has to do with boatbuilding?- simply put- what if they are right? if thats true and something big and catastophic is going to happen, my philosophy has alway been to live for the now...yet i keep thinking if i am going to build a boat and there really was ONLY 2.5 YEARS or so left for boating fun, what boat would i like to build in the time left and do i even consider 2012 and a possible end to fossil fuels and/or even boating by that time frame??? (and no- simply buying a boat- is out of the question for me)

even if there is nothing that happens in 2012- i want to be socially responsible; i would like to not have to depend on fuels. if possible. and be cost effective for my budget.

1. yet my first idea was to build a sub-I spent two years working out all the systems then simplifiying them...only to find the 51.5 x 7 ft dia hull might be a little small and a bit confined for diving purposes, for me at least. assuming i could develop the sub to workable and safe vessel, my design tended to be a little small when i mocked it up - no not claustrophobia, i just didnt want to invest big $$$ into something i may or may not enjoy since i have never been in a psub. and that size is the biggest i could finance.

yet my heart really lies there- it fits my uniqueness factors (ego?). 1. being more environmentally freindly if done right since it is diesel electric the range for the same fuel and hp is enormous. 2. who else has one!? 3. and not least there are major advantages to a sub over a surface craft.

but as i mentioned the project near the start date was abandoned- sigh...i still find myself dreaming.

2. i miss water bound life so much that i am contemplating a small houseboat.

cheap easy to build and i have 5 other builds and liveaboard experience having lived on a houseboat here in canada, and year round i might add, for over three years!
- the problem here is that i have outgrown my need for sitting quietly in a cove somewhere and want to travel Georgian bay and the Great lakes and still have a liveaboard boat.
There are two places on the lakes i want to live in seasonally- but getting a houseboat across the lakes is risky since wind storms can come up anytime in minutes and a small houseboat with a big cabin cant handle 12 ft seas!...so this is limiting.

3. i designed a planing catamaran that could handle the heavy seas, but my budget constraints do not allow for liveaboard size. therefore its not practical unless im going to sail the oceans of the world. and im not sure i want to do that yet. maybe after 2012?

4. perhaps the most practical- but also going against my integrity as a green sailor- i love tug boats(hence my handle on this forum)i have worked on them, and could easily build one - i wanted to build a D-E powered tug but it looks like the many posts on the subject seems the complexity and costs make that impractical.
i do have a 1950's era d4600 cat engine with mega torque! 3:1 reduction etc. that would make a nice engine for a t-boat in the 25-45 ft range. can turn a 32 inch prop easily, albiet the engine is 1950, its well built, weighs close to 3000 lbs and would prolly outlast me! back in those days 75 hp is about like a 200 hp now. in terms of torque and ft pounds at least. but this means using lots or the evil fuel which goes against my "green" (is it "green" if it applies to water?)ideology and prohibitive for cost effectiveness.

the other problem associated with the tug or the sub is build time. these are 2 to 3 year builds..i may never get a chance to use it if 2012 has any truth to it!???

5. so herin lies the problems...there is no perfect boat. how can i mesh my idea of spiritual awareness and environmentalism with my practical cost effective needs in a boat?? and still maintain my idealism? is it possible??

at this point i feel like throwing in the towel...take up gardening(or not!)

any suggestions..i have bared a lot here please be kind...

thanks for your input

Doug

[Guest625101138]

I am certain others here have said that fishing is getting tougher to make a living up your way and fishing boats are cheap. I had a look at the classifieds but probably not the right ones. Something like this looks low cost:
http://vancouver.kijiji.ca/c-cars-ve...AdIdZ193043464
Maybe a bit small. But you can be on the water very quickly.

Have you thought about converting a keel yacht to motor. Something heavy from the 70s or 80s between 40 to 50ft that is in good condition. Ditch the bolt-on fin keel with a lighter shallower keel and fit the old diesel as extra internal ballast. Very easily driven so the diesel will not work hard. I have seen this done with a 30ft boat with pleasing results. That boat was trailerable once the fin keel was replaced with something shallower.

No good taking 2 years to build it and only get 6 months use. Oil is starting to climb in price again so fuel hungry boats will stay cheap. Take the twin 350 petrol engines out and fit the old diesel. Operate at displacement speed.

[messabout]

Tugboat: Pease do yourself a big favor and put away all that 2012 prophecy humbug. That stuff is in the same category as the tooth fairy, and the easter bunny myths. I mean no discredit here except to all those supernatural prognosticators, M. Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce and all the rest of the charlatan, crackpot, phonies that promise us gloom and doom.

Do not be concerned with what year it is or what year it will be. Just get out there on a boat and enjoy it. I reckon that Rick has a pretty sensible idea there and it may well be a shortcut to realizing your desires.

[tugboat]

Messabout-thats probably very good advice indeed- Rick-thanks- ill definitely check out that option...btw how the heck can that boat only use less than 1gph? im told my cat uses around 4 gph and its only 75hp??

regards!

[daiquiri]

This thread has put me a bit in allarm... So can we expect variables like B'ak'tun, Chilam Balam and Bolon Yookte' K'uh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_phenomenon) become part of SORs for small boat desing in a very near future? Oh, damn! I hope Viktor and Martijn are reading this, we need this thing added to Freeship and Delftship asap!

[thedutchtouch]

honestly, i don't think that anything will happen in 2012. to answer your question, i'd build a small fun fast boat, gas powered with an outboard. If the world really does fall apart you can always steal a big boat or three... it's not stealing if the laws of society no longer exist. that's my plan for the zombie apocalypse.

if i were you, i would go for 2, 4, or 5- 5 being something like a boston whaler, or other boat in that size range, built for speed with a cabin to sleep in

[erik818]

Don't worry.
It's now year 4707 in the Chinese calendar. The world didn't end by 2012. If you go by the islamic claendar it's only 1431 which means there's still almost 600 year's left. If you're really worried about 2012, make sure you spend that whole year in China, the islamic parts of the world or anywhere else with a non-2012 calendar.
Erik

[tom28571]

Looks like a pretty good boat but, 7kts at 1gal/hr? I hope the rest of the ad is more honest.

[marshmat]

Doug (tugboat),

Here's my suggestion, for what it's worth.

I'm not sure where in the Great Lakes you are, but you can't be more than a day's drive (ok, two days if you're north of Superior) from the old fishing ports of Lake Erie. There, you might find a wide assortment of commercial craft, all of which need a bit of patching up, and most of which are no longer profitable in their current roles as fishboats, etc.

Fixing up one of these working craft to liveaboard standards will take time and money, but it should work out to less time and less money than building the same thing new. The Lake Erie fishing fleet includes a lot of the sort of hefty, steel, tug-like boats you seem to enjoy. Refitting undoubtedly has less environmental impact than mining fresh iron ore and bauxite from which to build a brand-new boat. And, of course, these craft have character in spades.

I suspect that when you sit down to calculate how much fuel you'd go through on such a boat- and compare it against your current bills for heating fuel, electricity, car fuel, etc.- the boat might not have nearly as big a footprint as you might suspect.

[dskira]

Originally Posted by tugboat

ok-- this post will be a personal one- one i think anyone who has built a boat before will understand all too well. but need to clarify first a couple things beforehand.
and at the risk of being vulnerable to the usual snipers on here who like to attack rather than have open minded discusions- here goes:

i know some of you, maybe most of you, are going to think this is crazy to base any decisions on future possibilities. however, 2012 is coming. I dont have any real beliefs about what exactly is coming for 2012 maybe nothing maybe something- i never have believed in any stupid y2k crap or any 7th day adventist, or any other religions b.s. about doomsday predictions but 2012 is not the usual doomsday prediction, it is one based on many societies and cultures converging on the same dates or aproximate dates and events..21/12/2012! (i often wonder what time zone this is predicted to take place in first?)

now - you might be wondering what this has to do with boatbuilding?- simply put- what if they are right? if thats true and something big and catastophic is going to happen, my philosophy has alway been to live for the now...yet i keep thinking if i am going to build a boat and there really was ONLY 2.5 YEARS or so left for boating fun, what boat would i like to build in the time left and do i even consider 2012 and a possible end to fossil fuels and/or even boating by that time frame??? (and no- simply buying a boat- is out of the question for me)

even if there is nothing that happens in 2012- i want to be socially responsible; i would like to not have to depend on fuels. if possible. and be cost effective for my budget.

1. yet my first idea was to build a sub-I spent two years working out all the systems then simplifiying them...only to find the 51.5 x 7 ft dia hull might be a little small and a bit confined for diving purposes, for me at least. assuming i could develop the sub to workable and safe vessel, my design tended to be a little small when i mocked it up - no not claustrophobia, i just didnt want to invest big $$$ into something i may or may not enjoy since i have never been in a psub. and that size is the biggest i could finance.

yet my heart really lies there- it fits my uniqueness factors (ego?). 1. being more environmentally freindly if done right since it is diesel electric the range for the same fuel and hp is enormous. 2. who else has one!? 3. and not least there are major advantages to a sub over a surface craft.

but as i mentioned the project near the start date was abandoned- sigh...i still find myself dreaming.

2. i miss water bound life so much that i am contemplating a small houseboat.

cheap easy to build and i have 5 other builds and liveaboard experience having lived on a houseboat here in canada, and year round i might add, for over three years!
- the problem here is that i have outgrown my need for sitting quietly in a cove somewhere and want to travel Georgian bay and the Great lakes and still have a liveaboard boat.
There are two places on the lakes i want to live in seasonally- but getting a houseboat across the lakes is risky since wind storms can come up anytime in minutes and a small houseboat with a big cabin cant handle 12 ft seas!...so this is limiting.

3. i designed a planing catamaran that could handle the heavy seas, but my budget constraints do not allow for liveaboard size. therefore its not practical unless im going to sail the oceans of the world. and im not sure i want to do that yet. maybe after 2012?

4. perhaps the most practical- but also going against my integrity as a green sailor- i love tug boats(hence my handle on this forum)i have worked on them, and could easily build one - i wanted to build a D-E powered tug but it looks like the many posts on the subject seems the complexity and costs make that impractical.
i do have a 1950's era d4600 cat engine with mega torque! 3:1 reduction etc. that would make a nice engine for a t-boat in the 25-45 ft range. can turn a 32 inch prop easily, albiet the engine is 1950, its well built, weighs close to 3000 lbs and would prolly outlast me! back in those days 75 hp is about like a 200 hp now. in terms of torque and ft pounds at least. but this means using lots or the evil fuel which goes against my "green" (is it "green" if it applies to water?)ideology and prohibitive for cost effectiveness.

the other problem associated with the tug or the sub is build time. these are 2 to 3 year builds..i may never get a chance to use it if 2012 has any truth to it!???

5. so herin lies the problems...there is no perfect boat. how can i mesh my idea of spiritual awareness and environmentalism with my practical cost effective needs in a boat?? and still maintain my idealism? is it possible??

at this point i feel like throwing in the towel...take up gardening(or not!)

any suggestions..i have bared a lot here please be kind...

thanks for your input

Doug

I think every belief and fear as to be respected. No need to apologize for that.
I am dead scare at tomorrow, so you see you have an advantage on me
I think you should avoid submarine, it will take between 10 to 15 years to develop and will cost you at least several millions.
The TUG, the TUG, and the TUG. Buy a old and rusted hull.
Put a huge slow speed Wartsila or other ABC, spend your last money on that. Go buy your engine second hand in Bahrain or the like.
It is solid, it is comfortable.
Put a huge fireplace, a bar, a piano, and place for dancing.
You never know who will come visit.
But what ever you built, have a lot of fun, and do it for that reason.
Then if we have to die in 2012 without oil, who cares?
Daniel

[LP]

Buy an early 80's or late 70's bulletproof, FRP sailboat and plan to be at 11 degrees North latitude and 143 degrees East latitude at said time. 11 degrees North and 153 degrees East might be a better location due bottom structure. Looks like a good place to ride out the tsunami's.

[marshmat]

LP, am I mistaken, or are those co-ordinates the absolute MIDDLE OF NOWHERE in the East Mariana Basin?

Looking forward to finding out what we've got Doug thinking about after these last few posts.....

[LP]

That's the place. Deepest water on the planet. The tsunami's will pass right under you without a notice.

[Willallison]

I'd have to agree with everyone else... the very best boat is the one that you own right now....there is such a variety of good 2nd hand boats out there on the market that it's a wonder there's any work for a yacht designer at all!!
Go find the one that best suits your needs and your wallet and get out there and enjoy it.
(Says he, somewhat hypocritically having just designed and built a boat coz there was nothing like it on the market )

[WestVanHan]

The Mayans were fantastic with numbers,astronomy,etc but believed in human sacrifice,tearing out the hearts from living people.
So much so that they would do up thousands at a time.

Why? So the sun god Kinich Ahau would wake up the next day,and bring life to the earth.
Why believe in the convenient part,but not the brutal other?

If you're going to spend money on a boat what about a Bluewater Coastal Cruiser?
Cheap,fast if need be,very good on fuel if running slow,and lots of room