Why are one designs so expensive?

[Fredrik]

Hi,

I'm not a boat builder and don't know much about the economics of boatbuilding so I might not see the obvious here. However there is something that has been bothering me for sometime and that is the price for one design dinghies. How come they are so expensive? Or are they not?
For instance I have a hard time understanding why an optimist is more expensive than a complete windsurf kit. Not to mention the Laser…

Appreciate your input.

Cheers
Fredrik

[Corpus Skipper]

A one design (one-off) boat has to be built entirely from scratch, without the benefit of jigs, molds, etc... of mass produced boats, therefore it takes more time, materials.......

[Raggi_Thor]

I think Corpus didn't understand your question. Here is a comment from IODA
http://www.optiworld.org/ioda-technical.html#ccheap

Maybe some one design classes isn't strict enough so that builders put a lot of effort into making the boat just a little bit faster without breaking the rules?

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by Corpus Skipper

A one design (one-off) boat has to be built entirely from scratch, without the benefit of jigs, molds, etc... of mass produced boats, therefore it takes more time, materials.......

You're right, except that one design and one-off is not the same...

But why are one designs so expensive? Well, that's capitalism for you! If there's a monopoly or something similar, the price will rise. Of course, a one design builder might tell you that it's because they have to work to very exact standards etc. That's BS!

[Corpus Skipper]

Oops!

[Fredrik]

Thanks for you input. The IODA article was very interesting. Don’t know if this is a relevant comparison but I still think it’s an interesting perspective.

I used to work for a sports wholesaler and if I compare the price structure of windsurfing equipment with the retail prices of optimists I get the feeling that someone has very high margins. I know that a windsurf board is a different product but on the other is an optimist rig a lot cheaper. Bottom line is that unless an optimist hull is a lot more expensive than I imagine it would be a good deal to sell optimists at less than 2/3 of current retail price. Does anyone have an idea of what the production cost of an optimist is?

Cheers
Fredrik

[Raggi_Thor]

Not much :-)
But I think it's almost as much work to sell a small dingy as a larger one.
I think you pay for the sales organisation more than you do for the boat.
The drawings costs 47USD or so.
I would be happy to make a mould for you if you want to start production in GRP.
A plywood kit, all parts ready cut to assemble, will cost approx 300Euro to produce.
+epoxy etc.

[gonzo]

Not all one designs are expensive. Try the SNIPE for example. They are reasonably priced, you can build your own and they are competitive for decades.

[Fredrik]

That is an interesting figure. Could you be a bit more specific? Like: Material + epoxy + work + foils (rudder and centreboard) = A complete hull without fittings

I can agree to that the Snipe is cheaper but I wouldn’t say it’s a cheap boat.

[Tijke]

What do you do this winter.......?
You like sailing this summer?
Start building NOW!
Your own Lobster Boat.
Lobster 12.5 Boat Kit.
Expensive ?? I don't think so
look at www.houten-botenbouw.nl

Tijke

[mattotoole]

If Wal-Mart were selling Lasers they'd cost $400, not $4000. I use this as an example because I can't think of a popular one design that would be simpler or cheaper to actually produce.

[Herman]

@ Tijke: I don't think your post is appreciated here. If you want to advertise, please buy a banner. If you want to add to the discussion, please be on topic.

@ topic starter et all:
One Design. I think it is important to split things up:

There are one design boats that can be built by a number of builders, like the optimist, Finn, Europe, etc. There is a certain margin/tolerance in the building plans.

There is also a group of boats, that is being built by only one builder: Laser, 49er, etc.

There is a vague third group: More builders, but there is only one master model, from which a builder (once obtained a building licence) can make molds:
420, 470, Soling.

First group:
A lot of effort is being put in getting a faster boat, withiin the tolerations that are allowed. This will make for a higher price.

Second group:
Pure monopolism. Look at the Laser: A hull, a deck, a cilindrical mast, a simple sail, dramatically cheap rudder and dagger. But look at what they charge you...
After making 2 female moulds (hull and deck) one can make "Lasers" for a dramatically lower price than Laser does. You only run into trouble with copyrights.

3rd group:
I do not have too much experience with that group. Anyone? They are not the most popular boats anyhow.

[mattotoole]

One problem now is that newer one designs are so high tech. Look at the 49er. People love high performance, and it's nice to see such technological progress, but at what cost? These boats simply can't be built cheaply.

Another problem is low production volumes. Boats like the 470 have always been expensive because they've never made very many. I don't think there's ever been a single 470 fleet in the US that sails regularly. People jump into these boats for the Olympics and then go back to sailing their Snipes every weekend. So the 470 remains an expensive specialty item.

One thing keeping production volumes low is too many competing designs. Every month the magazines feature a new 20-25' "sport boat." How many times can we reinvent the Melges 24, and what's the point? If we could all just settle on one of these barely-different designs, production volumes could go way up, and costs way down.

Speaking of Snipes, these are some of the cheapest boats to race because they remain competitive for decades. They're fairly heavy which means plenty of opportunity to build them strong. Sails are limited, and last a long time too. Since used boats remain in service so long, few new ones are built -- so those are probably expensive too. I have no idea what a new Snipe costs, but I bet it's over $10000. Then again I don't care because I'd never consider such a thing. So many good used ones are available for a third that much. We peasants are happy to leave the new ones for obsessive rich folks seeking world championships. God bless 'em for renewing the fleet.

Also, about Snipes -- the best racing is often in the slowest boats. Some of the best racing I've had was in Snipes, Lehman 12s, Shields, and even Naples Sabots. I learned a long time ago that it isn't about the boat.

Now Lasers -- the last one I bought was in the early 80s, for $1625. That's probably comparable to $4000 now. Of course, good used ones are available for a lot less, but how competitive are they? Varying quality has always been a problem, and an even bigger perceived problem. Years ago, people paid lots to get a boat from overseas when they were thought to be better than local ones. The problem here is various builders not staying in business over the years, but perhaps the class association could have done something about quality control. What could be simpler to produce consistently than a Laser?

Finally, at some point this is all about consumer marketing. People will pay so much for a toy. Look at what they pay for small powerboats, jetskis, quads, skiing/snowboarding, golf, etc. In light of that a $4000 Laser isn't expensive, nor even a $20,000 49er.