Stain Then apply fiberglass

[cusoak]

Hi my name is Jeff. I am new to this forum. I am building a Glen l 14 ft Zip marine plywood boat. I am just about finished with the plywood install.
My question is this. The mahogany plywood in not the color tha tI like, so I want to stain it a color that I have used before on my 66 Century Resorter.
I have heard that this might be a problem. With the west system epoxy sitcking.
Is this true, and if so is there a way of working around the problem or switching brands work.
Thanks for your help.
Jeff

[gonzo]

If you are fiberglassing over stain, use a water based stain. It will inhibit some of the epoxy penetration, but if you were using it only to waterproof, it won't be a problem.

[cusoak]

Not sure I understand the last part of your answer. About waterproofing.
The plans call for fiberglassing the bottom and sides. To seal and help protect the hull wood from damage. I sure hope it also keeps it water tight.

[michael pierzga]

The classic test for finish adhesion is the tape peel test. Make a stained test panel, epoxy it, let cure , then adhere a piece of duct tape to the surface and peel, pull. If the tape comes off clean you are OK...if the tape lifts the epoxy finish you are not OK

[rasorinc]

I agree with Gonso use only a water based stain. Epoxy does not adhere well over Oil based stains. Good luck.

[cusoak]

O K Then who makes a good water base stain. Any ideas
Jeff

[gonzo]

Go to Home Depot or Menards or any local paint store.

[PAR]

Recent testing has shown that epoxy works well over both water and oil based stains, assuming it's just a stain. The last part of that statement is the real kicker, as most "stains" now are much more then just pigment and vehicle. If you use a real stain and let it dry (well) you'll have about a 5% lose of peel strength, that's about the worst of it, which is quite acceptable. On the other hand, if your stain is actually a stain/sealer/finish, which most commonly available now are, then you'll seal up the pores of the wood and the epoxy will not have much to grab onto.

What is the brand and type of stain you are planning on using (be specific)?

The label is usually indicative of what it is.



This is a classic example and what is typically found in the hardware store or Lowe's/Depot. Notice what it says, "Wood Finish" even though it's in the "stain" section. It's not a stain, it's a stain, wood sealer and varnish, all rolled into one product. This one in particular, is an oil based, die type stain.

Many stains have a combination of pigments and die. You really want a pigment, as it just rests on the surface, while dies penetrate into the wood fibers.

Have you considered adding pigment to the epoxy?

[Yellowjacket]

If you are applying a dye under epoxy you want not only for the epoxy to stick to the wood, but you also want a dye that won't fade due to UV light. While UV protection (like varnish) is important to apply on top of the epoxy, you want a fade resistant dye or it's going to wash out in time.

Lockwood makes a series of metal complex dyes that are highly fade resistant. It makes sense to use a dye that is more fade resistant just so that what you have doesn't wash out over time in the sun. These dyes are soluable in water or alcohol, so you use them without worrying if the epoxy will stick. I'm sure there are others, but you want a metal complex dye if you are going to glass or epoxy over it, and then you want to use a good UV protectant varnish to keep it from fading.

No connection with Lockwood, they just had the mahogany color I wanted.

[PAR]

Dies are good if you want or need to "sneak up" on the color or are trying to bring out the grain. Dies aren't as good as pigments in regard to UV tolerance and do tend to fade with UV exposure. If it's color you're after, pigments are the better way and they don't penetrate the wood, like dies do as well. Pigments also can be added to the epoxy, so you stain and seal at the same time.

[gonzo]

The water based stains are just pigments. That is why I recommend them, I think they are a safer bet.

[PAR]

Most water based stains are both pigments and die, plus, drying agents, bonding agents, UV inhibitors, the whole lot.

The best solution is to go to a real paint store and get powered water based pigments or epoxy pigments from a formulator.

[Frosty]

Staining wood by coffee, coco, tea, ink, wine you name it. Water based paint powder, food colouring. Most people spend money getting stains out.

Does everything need to be bought from a shop.

[upchurchmr]

Check out Nick Schade's kayak site Guilemot Kayaks.
He does lots of staining before fiberglass and has both a forum and instructional videos on building his boats. I believe his second book "Stripbuilding Boats" has a good discussion of his techniques.

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by upchurchmr

Check out Nick Schade's kayak site Guilemot Kayaks.
He does lots of staining before fiberglass and has both a forum and instructional videos on building his boats. I believe his second book "Stripbuilding Boats" has a good discussion of his techniques.

.... and I think he recommends alcohol based stains from memory .. hic, they work for me