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  #16  
Old 09-17-2014, 07:47 AM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manie B View Post

. . . . Then over this is the outer skin of 4mm ply, which will be glassed with a layer of Aramid (Kevlar) and a layer of glass. . . . .
Kevlar (Aramid) wicks water, therefore an insignificant crack in the outside layer will cause the kevlar to wick the water in between the layers which endangers a long service life of the boat. This isn't a problem for one AIT trip but it's a problem if you want to keep the boat for a long service live.

Many old race boats suffer from this problem, but they weren't intended for a long service life in the first place.

Do a simple test, place a cup full of water next to an empty cup and hang a bunch of kevlar over the cups edges to the bottom of both cups, within an hour the water will start to migrate from the full to the empty cup and drip between the cups.
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  #17  
Old 09-17-2014, 10:20 AM
DriesLaas DriesLaas is offline
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Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
No it won't, the Sondor marine foam does not form condensation and it could be desirable to have if you get knocked around in rough water. It also isolates temperature and sound and does not absorb water.
If Manie manufactures his interior furniture with it it will also add to buoyancy, and be soft to the touch. It glues well and can be worked easily with most tools.
That is a bleddie good plan!!! Pity the stuff is so expensive.
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  #18  
Old 09-18-2014, 06:38 AM
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hoytedow hoytedow is offline
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  #19  
Old 09-18-2014, 07:47 AM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Regarding post #16, take also note that kevlar somewhat rejects epoxy which makes it hard to impregnate which makes it more likely to wick water into the laminate wherever it gets exposed.

See also this thread for info: Mixing kevlar with glass matt and rovings in a lamination.
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  #20  
Old 09-18-2014, 08:23 AM
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Angélique Angélique is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanie View Post

I know I'm always pestering you about a Multi . . . .
Hi Fanie,

Maybe the new Wharram Mana 24 could be a nice fishing boat for you, perhaps Dries can produce the kits for SA . . .

I'll guess she's also suitable for the ‘‘Around-In-Max-One-Ton-(metric)-Total-Displacement-Race’’ which Sven suggested here . . .
Quote:
[ . . . ] I prefer to see an around-in-one-ton-race (metric) a race based on volume, not length. [ . . . ]
I suggest we call this ‘‘Around-In-One-Ton-Race’’ the ‘‘Sven-Yirvind-Challenge’’
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  #21  
Old 09-20-2014, 01:14 PM
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MoeJoe MoeJoe is offline
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Best of luck with the project Manie. Will be interesting to follow for sure.

It's sort of funny that the "old salt" Yrvind with 50 years of blue-water sailing in tiny boats is going for experimental designs throughout, while you go opt for more of a traditional design and KISS. Different solutions to similar problems. Both might work well, or one might not.

Reg. electricity, I'd say minimize your dependency of it, and for the stuff you do need, have backups on everything. 3 backpacking stoves don't take much room and their small gas canisters are convenient and reliable.

Regarding your route- for it to be a "proper" around the world sailing for record books, you'd need to cross the equator, right? Wouldn't the original route be a lot more pleasant? Down there it's going to be dark, cold, windy, wet, 6 months of that might feel longer and be harder than 12 months of sun, warmth, and nice trade winds..

Assuming that "things will break", which they probably will, at least partially, sooner or later, what backup plans do you have/are you considering regarding for example a broken mast, a smashed-in window, a broken rudder axle?
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  #22  
Old 09-21-2014, 12:47 AM
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Manie B Manie B is offline
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MoeJoe very valid points and I will start by answering the basic ones first.

My team and I are (hoping) planning many different voyages with this boat. We would like to start with the SaToSa concept first and then do the others later. This would include equator crossings as you mention. The idea is to hopefully have more than one "captain" so that when the one gets off the boat the next one could be ready to take off on another adventure, a relay team if you will. We also envisage three types of boats. Firstly this 10 that is short and fat for nonstop long distances, secondly a 12/13? that is skinny for hops that are 100? days apart, and thirdly a 15/16? built for 2 people.

We will do very very thorough testing from Port Elizabeth and we will have backup systems. We are looking closely at spares and testing a backup kite that so far seems to be fairly good, in a better than nothing style. I am also testing different camping stoves and reducing dependency on electrical equipment. In the summer months the days are very long the further south you move and we hope that this factor will be of great help.

We have the greatest respect for Sven's ability to think "out the box" but our approach is probably more conservative. I am confident that many different designs would be successful but we are going "old school" After many discussions that I have had with many different sailors we still feel that there is not enough data to disprove the concept of the full keel heavy displacement micro ship that I am building. As you know Wynand has built many steel yachts over the years so he also supports the strong and heavy thinking. I am making provision for the fact that should the full keel not give adequate directional stability and have a tendency to broach when running, we will be able to remove the keel and modify and/or go with something else, maybe bilge keels or even a similar system to Kenichi Horie. We still like the concept of the Flika http://www.flicka20.com/ with it's long keel. So bottom line is we need a platform with which we can experiment and I am building this boat with the attitude that it will work and therefore will be the boat to keep. Nobody has ever built a decent "TEN" that is applicable for this type of adventure so we need to start somewhere and get something on the water for all to see.

I am sure that Sven will agree with me that the concept of a TEN will be proven sooner or later, maybe it wont be me, but somebody is going to do it, that I am 100% sure of. My partners in this endeavour support my thinking and that is why they came on board. Fair winds and happy sailing to all
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  #23  
Old 09-21-2014, 12:51 AM
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Manie B Manie B is offline
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Flicka - probably one of the worlds most successful boats
http://www.flicka20.com/Portals/30/b.../flicka_08.pdf
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  #24  
Old 09-21-2014, 03:08 AM
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Sounds like you guys are getting serious, but it sounds good. An adventure for sure...

Angelique, I'm not a Wharram fan...
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  #25  
Old 09-22-2014, 02:25 AM
DriesLaas DriesLaas is offline
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That Flicka is a nice little boat! Why did I forget about it?
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2014, 01:46 PM
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WestVanHan WestVanHan is offline
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Hey Manie ,congrats for not laying on the couch and watching life slip by.

Anyways for cooking...try a solar oven.Build or buy,in the sun it'll get to 150C almost instantly
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  #27  
Old 10-01-2014, 11:41 AM
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The past couple of weeks has just been insane, my feet never touched ground and I have just been super busy with this campaign. It simply is an unbelievable amount of work to set up all the internet accounts. I want to get the word out there as much as possible and I am hoping to get a little bit of funding (donations) at a later stage that could help to pay for expensive instrumentation etc. Every little bit helps. That is why I set up SaToSa on FB, Manie HJ Botha on Wordpress and Blogger, Twitter, Pinterest, Google+ and of course Youtube and Paypal.

I'm hoping that when people see the hull been plated that they will start realising that this project is seriously underway.

Anyway I am trying do as much as possible to all the components before assembly so that I minimise the amount of work to be done inside the boat, when it becomes very difficult to work in a confined space. And as you go along you do spot things that could be better and I am making those changes now already. Made some small changes to the jig as well. Lofting of the hull panels will start within the next 2 weeks and then we will have something that looks like a boat !!
Attached Thumbnails
Manie's TEN-30.jpg  Manie's TEN-32.jpg  Manie's TEN-35.jpg  

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  #28  
Old 10-01-2014, 12:38 PM
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Manie B Manie B is offline
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sharpii2 I reposted this post of your here because it is very relevant to our way of thinking, thanks for the post:-

Quote:
Thoughts about Keels
SOME THOUGHTS ON KEELS

By writing this, I do not meant to denigrate anyone’s ideas or theories, but just to state my own.

For an AIT boat, I think a keel is the answer for three purposes: ballast placement, directional stability, and roll dampening.

The keel I drew for my “Football” design concept (see attachment) is a full length one with quite a bit of rake to the leading edge. The reason for this is to move the Center of Lateral Area (CLA) far enough aft, so the main sail alone would have its Center of Area (CA) properly placed so the boat could sail on all points on the wind, except downwind.

To sail downwind, the jib is raised and sheeted tightly. This gives the boat a lee helm that is very easy to get rid of. The jib will have a down haul which will lead to the mast.

The long keel is deep enough to have a rudder attached to its trailing edge. This rudder has considerable area and, due to the fact that it is attached to the keel and is of rather modest aspect ratio, it is far less likely to stall. It is also very firmly attached to the boat, so its far less likely to break or be lost.

The keel has a specific gravity that is about one and a half. The reason for this is to limit the roll speed. Weighing in at around 136 kg, it will provide a great deal more righting moment when it’s out of the water than when it’s in. This will provide a sudden increase in righting moment, once the boat is nearly on its Beam end. At this point, due to its high sides, the boat will be more likely to slide sideways, from a wave hit, than invert.

The mast will be stuffed with foam, so it cannot fill up with water. Originally, I drew it with square sections. Now, I’m inclined to make it round, so the boom and gaff will be easier to fit, and more likely to survive a wrenching rollover.

Sven has made much of the idea that a keel of any kind can trip a boat, causing it to capsize from a wave hit. I agree with him in principle.

With no keel underneath, the boat is far more likely to slide sideways, than flip, from a broadside wave hit. It is also more likely to slide down the side of the wave, when broadside to it, and not be caught in the curl of it, when it breaks.

A boat with a fixed keel is vulnerable to all these hazards.

However, with this particular design, that may be less true. The reason being that the boat will be less likely to get caught, broadside to the wave, in the first place.

This is because of three peculiar characterizes of the hull, keel, and rig design. The first is the hull itself. The stern transom is immersed by about 15cm. This creates drag, which slows the boat down somewhat, but also gives it a preference for going forward, rather than backward or sideways. Second is the keel. With its CLA so far aft of the boat’s CG, the boat will further prefer going forward, when sliding down a wave surface. Third is the mast placement. Stripped of all sail, its bulk being so far forward will further make the boat tend to point down wind.

I am not saying my approach is necessarily better than Sven’s. I’m just saying it is defensible.

Much of what I have learned about tiny offshore boat design, I have learned from Sven’s accounts. I’m sure his personal experience measures well against any theoretical knowledge I have.

However, having spent so many years acquiring this knowledge, I do enjoy trotting it out once in a while.

My “Football” design will probably never be built, and I will probably never sail out of sight of land, due to family issues and finances. But I do like to fantasize once in a while.
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  #29  
Old 10-01-2014, 12:41 PM
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Manie B Manie B is offline
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Sven Yrvind

Here is a very good video of Sven
excellent and very well presented

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GymdwhfXYX8
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  #30  
Old 10-01-2014, 03:38 PM
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Hi Manie, instead of 1m600 wide, why don't you make it 2m ? It should give you a bit more righting force and a bit more space. 3m long is bad enough.

Otherwise just make it 10m wide and three meters long Like the pilot who landed his plane complaining about the very short but unbelievably wide runway...
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