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  #61  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:31 PM
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keysdisease keysdisease is offline
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Hey Charly,

You have one whole year on me and I always just want to go sailing. Sorry if I was sounding like a dog with a bone but I am pretty close to the inspection thing and your Coastie friend sounds like he is being kind of casual about it.

Regardless, as a workingman myself I understand your position and priorities. Additional costs that don't get you closer to the water are of a lower priority and under the circumstances, rightfully so.

I've always been a fan of Hughs designs and actually visited him in Seattle about 20 years ago. Your project is looking great and if you're ever knocking around card Sound or especially Buttonwood Bay the UKSC is on Point Pleasant, drop a hook and I'll buy you a refreshing beverage.

Steve



Quote:
Originally Posted by Charly View Post
Hey keysdisease,

This has been a nagging issue from day one, for me. I am 57 years old, and mainly just want to go sailing.
...

I do appreciate your imputs on this issue, and if you think I am missing something important, please say so. Thanks.

Charly
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  #62  
Old 07-28-2010, 07:09 PM
Charly Charly is offline
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Thanks Steve, I'm looking forward to it.
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  #63  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:50 PM
Charly Charly is offline
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Here are some pics of the crack repair.

I ground down the inside layer of okume about eight inches back each side of the crack, grinding in a 12 to 1 scarf.

Then ground out a vee section around the crack on the middle layer, about two inches wide. I filled the vee valley with bog after saturating the whole area with slow resin.

Then I stretched a layer of 10 oz cloth over that, wet it out, and then mixed some west 405 "chocolate" thickener with the rest of the resin, coated everything including the patch with that, and stapled some boards across the whole thing to hold it firmly in place.

If yall think I should take out more of the offending material around the crack on the middle layer, I can do so from the other side when I flip the panel around. Or maybe I will just grind down the outside layer and do a similar okume dutchman patch thing.


edit: notice the middle photo. this is the exposed area with the inside 3mm layer ground away. At the bottom right edge there is a void showing, between the inside and the middle layers. It extends for a foot or so aft, and this is the same place on the biaxial mold that the other ones happened, at identical places on each end of the form. The break occurred right along a vertical scarf on the inside layer, about five feet aft of the stem.
Attached Thumbnails
Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-panel-break-perair.jpg  Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-panel-break-repair-3-.jpg  Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-panel-break-004.jpg  


Last edited by Charly : 08-02-2010 at 08:12 PM. Reason: amateur computer operator cloosterfook
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  #64  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:59 PM
Charly Charly is offline
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dang it. forget about the third pic on the right. For some reason I can't preview the pics before posting, and then can't delete select ones afterwards. Probably operator trouble

lemme try again

This is the patch before and after. It is more beautiful in person
Attached Thumbnails
Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-panel-break-repair-2-.jpg  Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-panel-break-repair-4-.jpg  
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  #65  
Old 08-09-2010, 03:23 PM
Charly Charly is offline
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Hope yall arent getting bored with this. Most here have probably seen this stuff a million times...

anyways, the first sheer stringer got put on this weekend

The stucco wall is a testimony to the careless, hasty abandonment of epoxy rollers..... right about "Miller time"
Attached Thumbnails
Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-sheer-stringer.jpg  Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-sheer-stringer-6-.jpg  Kurt Hughes Daycharter 36-stucco-meets-epoxy.jpg  

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  #66  
Old 08-09-2010, 04:30 PM
uncookedlentil uncookedlentil is offline
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your patch looks gorgeous.
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  #67  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:01 PM
ThomD ThomD is offline
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When I did my shears and fold up, on a 24 hull, I placed both deck jigs back to back. Then I laminated both shears at once on the edge, gave me lots of clamping room. Next day I sawed the shears apart, and glued them to the upper edges of the panels, and set the keel, then next day I did the fold up. So easy when the panels weigh 60 pounds or less!

The fold up was really easy. The bow was difficult, but I used all the tools described. The big mistake I made was not to go back into the forefoot and just blow out any material that got in the way. Since the bow is not closed when the keel is poured, as with a tortured hull, it is tough to get the exact amount of support in that area right. I just kept putting the iron to it. But it did cause a small panel split that I patched. One wants fullness, but if it seems crazy resistant, I would just get into the forefoot and saw a little until it loosens up on the inside and folds in. Then repeat the same exact process on the other side and it should come out symmetrical.
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  #68  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:03 PM
ThomD ThomD is offline
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Also keep your eye on the shear at the bow. The very heavy shears Kurt uses are torsionally stiff and add to the drama by recurving the panels at the end. These shears can be tapered a little bit. So just keep the eyeballs roving.
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  #69  
Old 08-10-2010, 05:02 AM
CatBuilder CatBuilder is offline
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Bored? I'm your biggest fan, Charly!

This thread is my favorite one. Did you end up with spruce for the sheer timber?

Everything looks great. What's that structure way over to the side on the saw horses? Mainstrenth bulkhead? Deck jig?


Very nice work!
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  #70  
Old 08-10-2010, 05:02 AM
CatBuilder CatBuilder is offline
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Bored? I'm your biggest fan, Charly!

This thread is my favorite one. Did you end up with spruce for the sheer timber?

Everything looks great. What's that structure way over to the side on the saw horses? Mainstrenth bulkhead? Deck jig?


Very nice work!
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  #71  
Old 08-10-2010, 07:15 PM
Charly Charly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomD View Post
Since the bow is not closed when the keel is poured, as with a tortured hull, it is tough to get the exact amount of support in that area right. I just kept putting the iron to it. But it did cause a small panel split that I patched. One wants fullness, but if it seems crazy resistant, I would just get into the forefoot and saw a little until it loosens up on the inside and folds in. Then repeat the same exact process on the other side and it should come out symmetrical.
Hey Thom,

The plans call for stopping the keel a certain distance back from the bow during the keel pour. I guess this also means that the two hull sections should be in firm contact all along the keel, up to that point, and that no bog should be put down in there any further forward, where it has not yet been tightened up to its maximum. (correct?)

Did you run your keel plank any father forward, and then come back and somehow fill the cavity underneath after the foldup, or did you scarf in an insert, set in bog, like before? or something else?
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  #72  
Old 08-10-2010, 07:24 PM
Charly Charly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBuilder View Post
What's that structure way over to the side on the saw horses? Mainstrenth bulkhead? Deck jig?
Nothing but a truss joist laying on the flat on two sawhorses. I used it as a worktable to lay out the scarf pattern for the stringers. It was left over from a house I built a few years ago. Those things make bodacious sawhorses. I might try and make the deck jig out of one.

For stringer stock, Ive been picking through the spruce everytime I go to the lumber yard. About half the time I come home with a keeper.
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  #73  
Old 08-10-2010, 08:08 PM
ThomD ThomD is offline
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"(correct?)"

I think so, The panels get the 45 degree bevel half way up the edge, so that when they are wired they will seat solidly. Slowly tighten the wires bringing the keel together progressively. I just did what was in the video pretty much with this part. Had a full length specified keel, and then poured in the bog, dropped the keel on top, then drilled and wired it down, poured more, added the fabric, when it has all set I went to fold it up, no problem, except the bow, following the plans was very hard to close, and there was a major lump. The plans suggested this might happen. I used wired rod to close it, then poured the stem. Then went back and faired it in. But it would have been neater to remove some of the structure there to close the end, without going so far that it ended up as a bulge and struggle. Everything I did was in the plans.

The worst problem I had in the whole build was in bogging the stem. The stem called for a lot of bog, like the keel, and it nearly caught fire. Another time I would use a timber in there, or just use less bog, most bows are pretty overbuilt in my view. I have built some boats by just buttering the forward edges, and bringing them together, then glassing the outside.

"Did you run your keel plank any father forward, and then come back and somehow fill the cavity underneath after the foldup, or did you scarf in an insert, set in bog, like before? or something else?"

Sorry don't quite get your meaning here. In my day, the keel plank was just a spacer to save on epoxy, and stop it from overheating. I followed the keel program to the letter, and did not take it all the way forward. When I folded the hull, I latter just coved and glassed the stem, all the way back to the keel pour. Wood is not required, in these joints it just saves money. Goes faster, and reduces heat. My only thought about the keel plank since is that it might have been an idea to stop it short of the dagger area so that in the event of any leaking, the water could not work it's way up there. But it has never been a problem with my boat.

I think it would be interesting to stop the bow end of the hull at a collision bulkhead, but not the current one which is too far back for the purpose I have in mind. So the forwardmost part of the hull that is folded would be an open angle. The nose would be foam block. But the current system works fine, and is cheaper. Just something I would like to try some day. There is the assemble the bow before method which isn't full enough, and the CM one which is slightly more difficult to one off, but fine. My option would be full without the guesswork. But you would end up with more difficulty controlling the end geometry.
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  #74  
Old 08-10-2010, 08:29 PM
Charly Charly is offline
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Very helpful stuff ThomD. thanks
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  #75  
Old 08-11-2010, 11:21 PM
ThomD ThomD is offline
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I was on page one, and I think there was some discussion about soft epoxy, this is a disaster if implemented. I had hull one come out looking like a constant camber boat, when I used soft epoxy. I am pretty careful about epoxy substitutions, and don't subscribe to the idea that all epoxy is the same, and higher priced brands are a rip-off. I have tried a lot of different brands. But there are too many these days to keep up with all of them and some are not available in Canada. But whatever one's views are, hard epoxy in keels. There are places where soft epoxy is ok. probably not the end of the world in the CM inter ply layers. But in keels, unless you have a reference you trust from someone who has actually built one of these boats, do not substitute on epoxy. It is pretty easy to fold up a hull, but the loads at the keeline (you are working the shears), particularly on stressform hulls (not your boat, but anyone trolling by building an ama...) are easily enough to rip the keel. Or compress it. Seen both.

Even epoxy tests could be misleading. One of the cheesiest epoxies I used, I latter used up the leftovers on my wooden trailer, and quite a few projects thereafter. Time has passed to the point where I have even rebuilt some of those structures. Some of those epoxies are pretty hard today. But if you are building at a reasonable rate, they can be pretty soft after a day or two cure, or even months. When I originally put my trailer together, the epoxy was soft for months. I wouldn't be surprised if some chemist says that is impossible, but I have seen it, so I don't know what to tell you, it happens. Maybe they got hot at some point and post curred. On the other hand WEST is ready to go the next day. Doubtless there are others also, but just be sure any subs are designer approved. The mass in the CM keel is much greater than in a Stressform keel, but even then why take a risk.
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