I'm having rowboat built - is it overpriced?

[arsinoe]

Hi

Newb here. Sorry if I don’t get all the boating terminology right.

A few days ago, I contacted a local designer of small boats (let’s call him X) with the intention of hiring him to design a fairly large rowboat for me. He collaborates with a builder of small boats who would then build the boat according to X’s design.

After discussing the basics with me, X drew up a boat plan that he sent me. The hull design looks very similar to Newfoundland Boatworks’ „Liz“ (see http://www.newfound.com/liz.htm ). However, the Liz has a round hull and my boat would have two chines on either side (apparently this is cheaper). Also, whereas the Liz is a little over 18 feet long and has a beam of 37.75 inches, my boat would be well over 27 feet long (for decent hull speed) and have a beam of about 3.75 feet. I intend to sit astern and row the boat (with a sliding rigger) while two passengers, sitting side by side and facing forward, are located forward. The boat would have a deck except for where the rowing station and the passengers would be.

Because speed is important, I would like the boat to be as light as possible, but cost is a factor, and even the cheapest option X offered (the equivalent of about 19,000 US dollars) is at the very top of my price range. This option calls for a plywood hull with the outside of the hull covered in fiberglass. According to X, the weight of the hull would be about 176 pounds (I think this includes the weight of the deck).

I live in Europe in a country where things are pretty expensive. In order to get better value for my money, I was thinking about having a boat designed and built in the US, Canada or Great Britain instead and having it shipped over. Does anyone have an opinion on whether this would be a viable (i.e. cheaper) option? Or am I in fact expecting too much and the quoted price of about 19,000 dollars for a boat with the above specs is actually reasonable (or at least justified)?

Any advice welcome.

[Ike]

A custom designed and built boat is not cheap. 19K? Sounds about right. Of course if you used an existing design it would be a lot cheaper.

[Rick Willoughby]

Will depend somewhat on what fittings are included or provision for them. This detail typically takes a lot of time.

Here are some stock scull prices for a boat of similar length. Smaller displacement but high tech by comparison with what you want:
http://www.sykesna.com/m29.htm

There is a lot of work in one-off design and construct. If you are using professionals to design it and to build it you will pay a lot of money for their time.

You may find there is value in looking around at a standard build. I know there are some a bit smaller than you want.

You must be an exceptionally strong rower if you can make use of a 27ft boat of that beam and weight. Have you done estimates on the power required to push it up around hull speed.

I expect you will pay for volume rather than weight when shipping a boat from somewhere. I would not be surprised at a cost of USD10,000 to get it from USA. Road freight from UK would be considerably cheaper. That distance in Australia would be less than AUD1000 I expect. I had a 21ft OC1 shipped 2000km for AUD50 but it could be handled by one person and was stacked on top of normal load. It weighed 16kg.

Rick W

[mark775]

Consider Brooks Boats´Peregrine - lengthened. I´ll build you one at 22´in glued lapstrake for about half of that and we can ship. I´ll complete it and send survey and picture portfolio prior to commitment, if you wish (I have other buyers). Why the hard chines? They are slower. I wouldn´t dream of cladding a pretty little boat like that in glass - heavier with no pay-off. One just uses BS 1088 sapelle and a ding here or there doesn´t matter. As soon as one clads a boat, an environment for rot is produced.

[apex1]

For double chine in ply / Epoxy I would say 10 to 12 k is a reasonable price. But as mentioned, a one off is a hell of a job for the design only. So I assume you will end up at the same level, even if done abroad. @ 22.000 Stutz

No one around here with a existing design that fits ???

oops some are faster.............

RICK........a 40ft container US eastcoast to Europe is less than 1k$

[TeddyDiver]

Around here you can get one stockplan boat with 2500-3000€. Something unic could be twice that. However these boats are made to be used, not as decorating the pier, so no tropical hardwoods or multiple lackquer...

[whoosh]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Around here you can get one stockplan boat with 2500-3000€. Something unic could be twice that. However these boats are made to be used, not as decorating the pier, so no tropical hardwoods or multiple lackquer...

teddy in another thread asked you where you downloaded the ce recreational boat stuff>?

[arsinoe]

Thanks to all who have responded.

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

You may find there is value in looking around at a standard build. I know there are some a bit smaller than you want.

From the research that I've done on the Internet, it's precisely the fairly large size of the needed boat that is the problem (plus a few special features in terms of the way it's outfitted).

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

Here are some stock scull prices for a boat of similar length. Smaller displacement but high tech by comparison with what you want:
http://www.sykesna.com/m29.htmRick W

Unfortunately, A racing-shell type boat won't do. It wouldn't be suitable for the intended use.

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

You must be an exceptionally strong rower if you can make use of a 27ft boat of that beam and weight. Have you done estimates on the power required to push it up around hull speed.Rick W

I am actually a fairly strong rower (though not an exceptional one). I have a background in racing shells, and for more a year now I have been rowing 60 minutes a day on my rowing machine. Still, it's true that rowing this boat, especially with passengers, will be a challenge, and yes, I have done estimates (and concluded that it should work out). Besides, I won't have the boat built without first going out in a touring quad with a couple of passengers, seeing how fast I am and making an educated guess as to how fast I would be in the boat as envisioned.

Originally Posted by mark775

Consider Brooks Boats´Peregrine - lengthened. I´ll build you one at 22´in glued lapstrake for about half of that and we can ship. I´ll complete it and send survey and picture portfolio prior to commitment, if you wish (I have other buyers).

Thanks for the offer. I might have taken you up on it if the general consensus here had been that I'm being overcharged, but since that doesn't seem to be the case, I guess I'll go with the mentioned designer and builder. In my experience, ordering things from abroad ends up costing about twice what you would have expected what with value-added tax, customs and shipping. Besides, there's something to be said for being able to actually meet the people doing the work and talk to them in person. I get along well with the designer, he seems genuinely interested in the project, and he did mention that I would have the opportunity to assist in the building, which would reduce the price somewhat.

Originally Posted by mark775

Why the hard chines? They are slower.

Simply because the designer said that was the cheapest option. I'll certainly ask him how much more a more rounded hull would cost.

Originally Posted by mark775

I wouldn´t dream of cladding a pretty little boat like that in glass - heavier with no pay-off. One just uses BS 1088 sapelle and a ding here or there doesn´t matter. As soon as one clads a boat, an environment for rot is produced.[

Unfortunately, I'm not knowledgeable on this subject, so I'm depending on the expertise of others. What do other readers here think? Would glass cladding on the outside of the hull really only be heavier, more expensive and conducive to rot without offering any appreciable benefits? I probably should mention that the designer suggested plywood 6 millimiters (0.236 inches) thick, and it is only the outside of the hull that would be have glass cladding. The boat will be moored to a buoy in running water year-round.

The designer also said the glass cladding would mean that the wood would not be visible on the outside of the hull. Is this correct? I had assumed that a single layer of glass would be transparent.

Originally Posted by apex1

22.000 Stutz

Good one!

Thanks again for your replies.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by whoosh

teddy in another thread asked you where you downloaded the ce recreational boat stuff>?

Any help from this http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...94L0025:EN:NOT

and the standards http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue...CS1=47&ICS2=80
and the same in diff order http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue...m?commid=54258
Some parts of the standards I've found also translated in finnish but reckon that's not usefull to you, and for a few more specified questions I've got answered by some forum members as a "quote" taken of the specific standard.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by arsinoe

Simply because the designer said that was the cheapest option. I'll certainly ask him how much more a more rounded hull would cost.
Would glass cladding on the outside of the hull really only be heavier, more expensive and conducive to rot without offering any appreciable benefits? I probably should mention that the designer suggested plywood 6 millimiters (0.236 inches) thick, and it is only the outside of the hull that would be have glass cladding.
The designer also said the glass cladding would mean that the wood would not be visible on the outside of the hull. Is this correct? I had assumed that a single layer of glass would be transparent.

You should do search the forum (and also google) strip plank canoe. This techinique is the best for you purposes and it's obvious that the designer you have been dealing with isn't well aware of the method.
If the designer can draw a more or less round bilged boat it's rather simple task to make such boat in strip plank epoxy glassed in round 80-100hours.

[apex1]

arsinoe
the designer suggested plywood 6 millimiters (0.236 inches) thick, and it is only the outside of the hull that would be have glass cladding. The boat will be moored to a buoy in running water year-round.

The designer also said the glass cladding would mean that the wood would not be visible on the outside of the hull. Is this correct? I had assumed that a single layer of glass would be transparent.


The boat should definitely be covered by glass Epoxy inside and out!
The plywood then acts as the inner layer of a sandwich construction where the outer skins carry the load mainly. That provides extraordinary strenght if executed in a proper way!
Leaving the inside unsheathed is a No No for the matter of strength and weather protection!
Naturally glass epoxy is transparent! But usually the outside sheathing has to be faired and is covered then by paint.
I am a bit in doubt about your choosen designer in terms of wide knowledge.
If you are not much pressed for time I may be able to offer a professional solution. I´ll send you a Private Message (topside right corner). Or e -mail

Agree with Teddy in terms of method and estimated time (if done by pro´s)

Regards
Richard

[apex1]

Originally Posted by mark775

I wouldn´t dream of cladding a pretty little boat like that in glass - heavier with no pay-off. One just uses BS 1088 sapelle and a ding here or there doesn´t matter. As soon as one clads a boat, an environment for rot is produced.

That is the pure nonsense
Keep your mouth shut as long as the adults discuss a matter!

Regards
Richard

[Rick Willoughby]

Originally Posted by apex1

.....

RICK........a 40ft container US eastcoast to Europe is less than 1k$

This is vastly different to what a friend priced from Canada to Europe for a 30ft light weight boat - it would easily fit in a 40ft container. Can you give me some detail on the carrier?

Rick W.

[Rick Willoughby]

Originally Posted by arsinoe

........
I am actually a fairly strong rower (though not an exceptional one). I have a background in racing shells, and for more a year now I have been rowing 60 minutes a day on my rowing machine. Still, it's true that rowing this boat, especially with passengers, will be a challenge, and yes, I have done estimates (and concluded that it should work out). Besides, I won't have the boat built without first going out in a touring quad with a couple of passengers, seeing how fast I am and making an educated guess as to how fast I would be in the boat as envisioned.



........

Have you done any rowing on a calibrated machine. If you know the power level you can sustain I can give you estimated performance for the boat you have nominated and an optimum hull for the same displacement and power level.

Rick W

[apex1]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

This is vastly different to what a friend priced from Canada to Europe for a 30ft light weight boat - it would easily fit in a 40ft container. Can you give me some detail on the carrier?

Rick W.

With pleasure Rick! I´ll check that on monday in my office and PM you!
But 30ft in a 40 box? usually the 30´boats are wider than 2,45mtr. and that is a point where the cost explodes!
Regards
Richard