Building a Catamaran - Costs?

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Friday

I'm interested in building a catamaran about 40 feet long. However, so far all the design plans I can find are in the $1000's-Kate

Hmm, sorry to offend your pride by assuming you dont have the money - it was the statement abhout the price of plans that deluded me. Plans for a house, half the price of most 40ft cats cost $1000's - so being concerned about $2k or more for boat plans seemed a bit unrealistic.

[northerncat]

http://www.easycatamarans.com.au/ this is the address alan meant to post, ive just finished one of these boats and it took me 2 years part time after work and every saturday as i work full time. all up iit has cost me around 70000$, but everything on it has been made by me, you can check it out here http://www.hostmybb.com/phpbb/viewto...42&mforum=easy
sean

[yipster]

i envy you northern, real nice looking cats, great job thats called "easy" eh ? my compliments

[northerncat]

they are easy to build and for me it was mostly a lot of fun, beats watching television anyway
sean

[sailrjim]

Mannie,

I too have been studying the field of offers for a cat to purchase/build and am interested in the Proteus 10.6 design. Several others are under consideration as well. My primary requirement is for a good sailing boat for cruising that has a good turn of speed and is nimble and handles well under sail. Good handling under sail must be in the basic design, notwithstanding the nut on the tiller. So, my thoughts on your questions:


"What do you think of this design. I have not found anything really close to this. Will this be a safe short handed / singlehanded cruiser in moderate weather - in most places around the world."

What other designs did you consider?

This design appeals to me because of the philosophy behind it. I think that some things favorable are the shallow draft, the moderate weight, the large livable volume in the accommodation space relative to the length and displacement, the simple sheet on frame design with few stringers. I think it will be comodius for a small cat. The high freeboard forward may reduce windward ability somewhat. The "square" bottom will reduce speed achievable, but I am more concerned about quality of handling. Embarking and disembarking: less than user friendly. Transom steps or a boarding ladder would be useful additions. The possibility of building from a precut kit is a big advantage for the home builder.

Regarding handling/tacking ability, I am trying to learn how to estimate this quality when examining designs on offer. As an example, consider two designs; Proteus 10.6 (by Angelo Lavranos) and Eclipse 9.9 (by Richard Woods).

I notice that the max depth of the rocker in the hulls is forward of center for the Proteus, while being near center for the Eclipse. Along with the shapes of the hulls, I notice that differences in pacement of the pivot point (masts and boards) in the lateral plane and am curious how this affects ease of tacking the boat. The Eclipse has the mast and boards located in the vicinity of fifty percent of LWL, whereas Proteus has them a little more forward, mast near thirty seven percent LWL. I expect that placement of masts, boards must follow the location of rocker depth, but how does this relate to handling/tacking? I may ask this question in another thread, but it is a question regarding these designs.

Will this boat -if built well and to the designers Specification - have a reasonable resale value?

Well, here in the USA, by my observation, foam core/GRP is prefered and can bring a premium when resold so that the builder may receive some return beyond the cost of materials. At the other end of the spectrum, the plywood on frame boats seem slowest to find a buyer and, at best, will return the cost of materials. Catamarans may be an exception and bring slightly more, if well constructed, simply due to scarity and the high price of production models. An important factor is whether a design is from a well established designer. For a home builder, documentation of the process is of value when selling. Another consideration for some is whether time is more important than financial return on the last boat I am likely to build in this lifetime. An advantage of the Proteus design is that the materials for the corpus are much less expensive than for foam/GRP and more of the materials used go directly into the vessel, i.e. no vacuum bagging wastage, few temporary building forms and molds, probably less fillers to grind off to waste. This reduces the time and cost to build.

Apparently one is being built - started in Cape Town - I will post details when i can - because i will go down to see.

Looking forward to seeing those.

Good luck in your efforts and keep us posted on your progress.

Regards,
Jim

[Manie B]

Well, here in the USA, by my observation, foam core/GRP is prefered and can bring a premium when resold so that the builder may receive some return beyond the cost of materials. At the other end of the spectrum, the plywood on frame boats seem slowest to find a buyer and, at best, will return the cost of materials. Catamarans may be an exception and bring slightly more, if well constructed, simply due to scarity and the high price of production models. An important factor is whether a design is from a well established designer. For a home builder, documentation of the process is of value when selling. Another consideration for some is whether time is more important than financial return on the last boat I am likely to build in this lifetime. An advantage of the Proteus design is that the materials for the corpus are much less expensive than for foam/GRP and more of the materials used go directly into the vessel, i.e. no vacuum bagging wastage, few temporary building forms and molds, probably less fillers to grind off to waste. This reduces the time and cost to build.

I found that well built ply / epoxy boats, from a known designer, with accredited documentation form a registered third party inspector - sell for good money in Australia, definately a lot more than just the cost of materials.

I cant answer your questions on the different handling caracteristics of these boats, other members will hopefully shed more light on that.

However I have experimented and worked with epoxy and plywood supplied to me by www.ckdboats.com they are the South African agents for the Proteus as well as supplying internationally the kits. What they supplied was good stuff and excellent service.

I have read many reports of people suffering badly from epoxy - and i dont know why. If you work in a clean well ventilated shop NO PROBLEM nothing whatsoever. I vacuum my floor every day - sometimes twice. I always attach a vacuum cleaner to my sanding machines - I hate dust all over my place - keep tools clean they are expensive.

I am confident that it is relatively easy to build a ply / epoxy cat. That is certainly the way that i will eventually go. The other methods like http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/welcome.cfm
will be expensive in RSA http://www.kelsall.com/s1p.html
I am not mad about that vacuum table and that system, to me there are things that can go wrong - hot / cold etc. I have watched ALL the french videos of their building schools.

If you buy certified marine plywood you know it was made in a controlled enviroment. Epoxy goes off slowly and gradually gets strong - not brittle. Chopped strand mat is too messy for me - cloth is controlled, and very strong, epoxy certainly does penetrate well into ply.

The boat that i really like is the EASY 11.6http://www.easycatamarans.com.au/ go to the forums and see what the folks say PLENTY INFO go thru it all, you will love it

Good luck

[Manie B]

sorry link again http://www.easycatamarans.com.au/

[Manie B]

Here is the build start to launch, looks good to me
http://easycat.50webs.com/easy_cruising_general_014.htm

[sailrjim]

Originally Posted by Manie B

Here is the build start to launch, looks good to me
http://easycat.50webs.com/easy_cruising_general_014.htm

I have seen that show. When I saw it, I was reminded that every change of surface or section, every corner, increases the labor content; more filleting and fairing, more effort expended trying to perfect that inside corner or trying to get the glass to flow smoothly around that outside corner, trying to get the outside corners sanded without breaking the glass. Also, larger vessels indicate more joints in the panels, more framing, etc.,; more time and money. Still, it has appeal for being in ply and timber, familiar materials. Also, it has those user friendly transom steps. I want to know: how easily does it tack in various conditions?

Jim

[northerncat]

from the sailing ive done on them they tack and sail very well, one bloke managed to get 7.5 knots out of 6 knots wind with main and screecher which isnt bad for a ply boat, you can certainly expect to get hull speed out of them easily enough and ive heard of a few that hit the double figures when flogged, not that thats going to happen on mine as far as the labor content goes id say the fact that you can build one of these in around 2000hrs puts them well ahead of the composite field, imagine if you could get them in kit form like the schionnings how quick theyd go up, for me i looked at all the designs i possible could and still have at least 7 sets of study plans but the one that ticked all the boxes for me was the easy, kinda wished id built the 11.6 though
sean

[Manie B]

Sean have you built a Easy? and which one? Love to see photos if you got

[Roly]

My mate just did one of Derek Kellsal's workshops.
He was impressed with the ease of build and the no fuss approach to infusion.
DK's track record seems impeccable todate.

It has come at totally the wrong time for us working on our "leaner" as we see the hours that could have been put into a vessel that has got to be the future. The KISS principle at work both in production and the physics of the final product. At much as multi's seem alien to sail, double digit figures
makes them become "normal" real quick. Especially when you have 1000's of nm ahead and the leaner doesn't synch. with the gribs.
I think we will be building a performance cat next.

[northerncat]

theres a few more pictures of various cats under construction here
http://www.hostmybb.com/phpbb/viewfo...dd&mforum=easy
sean

[northerncat]

Originally Posted by Manie B

Here is the build start to launch, looks good to me
http://easycat.50webs.com/easy_cruising_general_014.htm

this is actually my boat and yes i have a thousand more photos but only put up what i thought illustrated progress
sean

[Manie B]

Blimey Sean your pics have inspired me like you wont beleive