Beam Pin Vacuum Infusion Help Please

[quote=Fanie;273347
Initially I thought the resin content is too high, using about 4kg of resin per pin, then I weighed them. The pins weigh about 10kg as is, so there is 6kg's of glass and 4kg's of resin. Not perfect but ok.

[/QUOTE]

You are too humble here Fanie. 60% glass is a perfect result! A handlayup by the average novice is 35%, industrial is way below 50% and a 55% is expected a good result in industrial Vac Infusion on complex shapes. So, you´re much better than the most professional done items.

Regards
Richard

[KnottyBuoyz]

Originally Posted by Fanie

I was thinking of a glass wet out bin. The idea would be to wet all the layers out as it gets feed through the bin, in one go. The bin hangs over the hull and can be moved backwards, either from a beam or a trolley extending both sides of the hull.

If you then precut and lay all the layers and stitch or glue them together (somehow), as the glass goes through the wet out bin it gets layed on the hull former. Once all the glass is on the hull and in place. you pull a bag over the hull and vacuum it in one go. Any excess resin will be sucked out and you may have less problems with resin not flowing where it should.

What do you think ?

I've actually seen pictures of that kind of setup, possibly on here, where they're laying up large yachts by hand. I would think you'd need a resin formulation with an extremely long pot life. It'd be a "sticky wicket" if the resin in the bin kicked off while you're trying to lay it out! I think most amateur builders will wet out their glass on a long plastic covered table, roll it up, transport it to the hull, they unroll it. If you were in a large production facility doing a lot of hulls your idea is/will probably work.

[Fanie]

Hi Ken,

Yes you're right. What I described above is called vacuum bagging, resin infusion is what you think of.

As long as the resin doesn't kick it should be fine. The idea as I said would be to get all the layers in place in one go, wetted out and in as little as say 5 to 10 mins. Another 10 to 15 mins to get the bag sealed, say in total 30 mins.

You get resins that give you an hour, and if done while it's cold, you may even have a bit longer.

[Fanie]

Hi Richard,

The setup I have doesn't allow for much harder cranking the glass up. It may however with a more sturdy setup do better. I have neve made such thick glass items before, and I must say I'm surprised at how hard this 16mm layup is. Normally if you tap the hull with your nuckles it makes that klonking sound and feel. This stuff however hurts, it's like the wall

Main concern however is it may not break, no matter what.

[Fanie]

Aye Rick,

I know such processes exist, I haven't see one before and haven't seen one work. The big systems I assume is for mass production, I don't know if it practical to build something like that for such a small scale as mine. It is not a system one person can run, you will have to have a few people to help in such a setup, while vac infusion can be a one person operation if you are well organised.

I absolutely believe that a boat should be glassed in one go. It scares the daylight out of me if I see how some boats are built, where some have multiple joints and layups over dried glass.

Aparently epoxy males a good join on polyester. Manie is going to glass again soon and we're doing a couple of experinments with epoxy on polyester and we'll see if wetted epoxy joins properly to wetted polyester. If the wet epoxy properly adhere to wetted polyester it may be a good way to join new glass on old glass, but I want to see that for myself. I've had some bad experiences with polyester delaminating and I'm not taking any chances.

[Fanie]

This is how the pins fit in the beams. Only the end pins are drawed in, the beam hinges's pins were left out for clarity. The beams are 300mm w x 400mm h and about 2m long each.

I didn't like the scissors that cat2fold used, they take up more space in the hulls due to their extra length. Once the beams are finished I'll draw a cavity off the assembled beams to make a proper housing they will fit into in the hulls.

I still have to figure out how exactly to make the beams, so any advice will be welcome.

The intent was to glass a sleeve around the pins that they will turn in. This sleeve is also glassed into the beams itself.

[kroberts]

Fanie,

Nearly all my experience is with hand layups, either in open air or in a partial vacuum bag. I've just started collecting equipment to do things properly. Since I'm an amateur this is a slow process.

I usually cut the glass to shape, stack it in reverse order and then lay it up one layer at a time, using a paint roller with a short to medium nap. Then, if I intend to vacuum bag it, I put it in the bag and wait for a cure.

I have no desire to go into production on anything, I just got sick of hand layups and excess epoxy.

[Fanie]

I'm not particularly fond of the work myself, I prefer fishing instead, without work however there is no fishing and I always console myself it's a once off.

Doing a hand layup I have pretty much the same method, but I'm thinking of ways to get larger pices of glass wetted out faster for layup. The roller is ok for small things, but a hull is a lot of glass to put down with a roller. I'm thinking of a wet out bin and rollers with a feeder motor on it. Laying a width of glass, ready wetted out will be much much faster and less tiring. Do the full layup in a couple of hours.

[kroberts]

You and I are on opposite ends of the scale.

My biggest project is an 18 foot long hovercraft, and it's mostly wood. The roller is for "big" projects, and those projects probably have never had as much glass in them as one of your pins. For small stuff I use a paint brush or bondo spreader.

Unless I'm using a full-sized roller, my biggest mixing container is a disposable plastic drinking cup.

Originally Posted by Fanie

Hi Richard,

The setup I have doesn't allow for much harder cranking the glass up. It may however with a more sturdy setup do better. I have neve made such thick glass items before, and I must say I'm surprised at how hard this 16mm layup is. Normally if you tap the hull with your nuckles it makes that klonking sound and feel. This stuff however hurts, it's like the wall

Main concern however is it may not break, no matter what.

That will not brake! even if you go icebraking with it. Anything else may!? And again 60% glass is far above best industrial standard!
To your "preprep" method: look how the most professional and economical (in terms of efficiency) "yard" in the world does:

http://www.bavaria-yachtbau.com/index.php?id=749

HANDLAYUP.................................................................................
and they do not waste a single penny, nor a single minute in producing a boat!

Regards
Richard

[Fanie]

I have made four pins now. The 25kg container is now just slightly below half full, that means I have used say 14kg of resin for 4 pins. That is about 3.5kg's of resin in a 10kg pin. Can it be ?

Lets say I've used 15kg's of resin to now, that's under 4kg's per 10kg pin.

If this is true, then I'm changing the way I'm doing layups on boats !!

Originally Posted by Fanie

Lets say I've used 15kg's of resin to now, that's under 4kg's per 10kg pin.

If this is true, then I'm changing the way I'm doing layups on boats !!

You´re the only one who can tell us if its true, I guess.

It is hard to buy the 35% figure but as mentioned twice, 40% resin is impressive already.

[Fanie]

Five pins done. Friggin boring to say the least. I really had to convince myself tonight to begin and the smell will be really good

[kroberts]

Open the door at each end of your shop and turn on a huge industrial fan to pump the air through. No reason to breathe fumes. Can't help with the boring part.

Have you examined the earlier pins to make sure they are entirely wetted out? Your epoxy use figures are amazing, I'm sure some folks are wondering.

[Fanie]

No Ken, I like the smell. One of the fewe pleasures of life remaining

On the resin quantities I'm surprised myself. I have examined and there are no dry spots. If there are you will see the white clearly. The pins are a green colour when I pull them off the jig. I leave them in the sun for a few hours to cure the resin properly, they come off the jig easier then.

You have to keep in mind the winding makes the glass extremely dense.

I think if one have a winder motor that can attach to the jig through a gearbox, a feedthrough wetout contaption with compressed rollers to squeegee the excess resin out and a clutch to keep tension on the supply roll it would go much quicker. It takes me two hours per pin.

Imagine you can rotate a boat like this while continuously spinning the woven around it. It is possible, even where the boat tapers off towards the heel and stern. It's going to be really quick to do a couple of layers this way, and you do the complete hull in one go. Lastly you can just add some peel ply.