70' One off questions

[GoSlow]

I am contemplating the construction of a 70' one-off FRP displacement yacht. The design is complete and we are ready to begin the bid process. While there seem to be benefits to proceeding this way, ie; possible cost savings, getting the layout and specific systems we want, I have nagging concerns about resale, cost overruns, support, etc. I would appreciate speaking with anyone who has been through this process.

GoSLow

[Eric Sponberg]

Your request for information is potentially very complex and there are no simple answers. The success of the boat will depend on how well it is designed, and by that I mean, how much detail can you provide for builders to quote on. You need to give a builder the correct amount of detailed design and construction information so that he can calculate an appropriate quote. The more detail you give him, the better and more reliable the quote will be.

The success of the boat also depends on the quality of the design and engineering going into the structure and outfit. Build it strong, but not too heavy. Or rather, make sure all your weights going into the boat correspond to the intended displacement, center of gravity and stability of the design. This part is so complex, that is why you need a good naval architect for the design, if you don't have one already.

New boats and their resale value depend on five things:

1. Quality and pedigree of the designer. A boat from a known, quality designer will have better cache and resale value than one from an unknown designer because the buying public will be familiar with the known designer's name and reputation.

2. Quality and pedigree of the builder. Same applies in the same way as the designer. Better builder = better quality and resale value.

3. How much attention to detail goes into the construction and how well the owner and the builder identify the costs and then stick to them. The biggest problem of most one-off builds is that the owner assumes, whithout sufficient detail, that the boat is going to cost a certain amount and hasn't budgeted for what the boat really will cost. So far, you are going in the right direction--you have finished the design and you are seeking bids from builders. You'll find out soon how good a design job you have done by the quality of the responses you get back from builders. If they have a lot of questions that you can't answer quickly, then you probably have not done a good design job. If they have few questions and come back with reasonable quotes, then you have done your homework well and your expectations of cost are likely within your budget.

Once you select a builder and start the project, stay on top of it on a weekly basis at least to keep the technical details answered, filled in, and the construction progressing, and also to keep an eye on costs. If you don't know how to do this, then hire a project manager who does to look out for your interest. The better thought out and drawn your design is, the less chance there will be for extra costs. Extra costs are always a fact of life, you are bound to get a few. The fewer you get, the better the design is.

4. Aesthetics. The boat has to look good. But what may look great to you may look like a dog to someone else. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder certainly, but there are certain aspects of beauty that are universal. It is extremely hard to define. But the public will buy a pretty boat before it will buy an ugly boat.

5. Performance. The boat has to perform well. If this is a motoryacht, it has to run economically at the intended design speed. If it is a sailing yacht, it has to have a reasonable turn of speed on all points of sail. The boat has to have a workable and comfortable interior, and all the systems have to operate. The boats don't have to have leading-edge types of performance, they just have to operate well, within the expected norms of their types.

If you would like to read more, I suggest you look at the article on my website "How to commission a yacht design and have it built." You can access it from the front page, at the bottom where it says: The Adventure starts here....", or you can go to the Articles section and get to from there.

www.sponbergyachtdesign.com

Eric

[GoSlow]

Thank you very much for the information. I will visit the article you referenced.

[Tad]

For a 70' one-off, unless you have done this a few times you really NEED a professional project manager. He or she will save you money and grief far in excess of their cost, throughout the project.

Talk to these guys, http://www.mcmnewport.com/index.html

Call Bob Riemens at 207-288-2050

Good luck, Tad

[lazeyjack]

Good stuff from Eric
But as a professional builder with my own company I was always amazed at the number of owners(prospective) who would hand over a wad of cash without checking out the finances of the company
make sure the builder is solvent, make sure he is not paying his prior bill with your money
Draw up a contract with a payment schedule, payments to me made at certain points of the build
take an instrument by way of security over the materials you have paid for, if the builder goes belly up, you own those things that you have paid for.
Sometimes I worked on a hourly rate, I became very trusted and would pass on my discounts if materials were paid for before I had to pay
Contracts should be as comprehensive as possible, it is very very hard to know EXACTLY what will go into the project and a lot relys on good faith and trust
After I shut down the business I did project managemnt, I was staggered when I would get builders to price a job and then after they had been chosen, they would then argue the toss about what was included
Lastly I would ask, have you thoroughly checked out the used boat market worldwide? Nobody makes money on boats at resale unless they build the things themselves, except superyacht owners where price in the marketplace is subject to a whim by the meagarich and where there is a long waiting list worldwide for such yachts
Good luck, feel free to mail me
Stu

[GoSlow]

Tad, thanks for the information. I visited the site you included and the company seems to be primarily focussed on high end sailing yachts. Would you expect they could be competetive in the market place for a project of our size? Also, what would be a reasonable fee to factor in for a project manager? I realize this can be tremendously skewed by relocating someone vs hiring local talent. Would it be realsitic to expect that project management can be obtained in the build country if that were New Zealand, Austrailia, or Tiawan. I didn't reference the US because the answer is obvious.

Thanks,
GoSlo

[GoSlow]

Stu,

Yes, I have exhausted the resale market and don't find anything that I am particularily satisfied with. I am a bit disappointed by that because I'm not terribly excited about the whole one-off process and exposure to poor resale value. I am going to follow through with this and see where the bids end up and that will probably make me decide just how unacceptable the current resales are. As a builder, would you think an acceptable letter of credit would allow a builder to get their own construction loan allowing me to complete payment once an established standard has been met at the end of the process? I understand the pay as you go process but it would seem like a horrible task to have to relocate a project from one yard to another in a finacial failure.

GoSlow

[lazeyjack]

I would say, just ask em how their situation is,
no if I was the builder I would insist upon pay as you go, otherwise an owner could just walk away
i would probably ask for enough to cover the hull materials and say 400 hours as the first payment, kick it off
I know nothing much abt that sticky stuff, all my work was metal, steel and al al,
I would look first at small builders, that way you dont pay for fancy offices and all that stuff
It would be a simple task to get a background check on the directors of the company
If it is not a regd. co. then a personal guarntee is in order, in other words IF he goes down, then you can , make claim on his personal assets, and so on
this all seems quite gloomy, but he should be able to provide referees, other satisfied owners, that's the way it works
What is the boat? have you any dwgs you could post,?
cheers Stu

[Ari]

Originally Posted by GoSlow

I am contemplating the construction of a 70' one-off FRP displacement yacht. The design is complete and we are ready to begin the bid process. While there seem to be benefits to proceeding this way, ie; possible cost savings, getting the layout and specific systems we want, I have nagging concerns about resale, cost overruns, support, etc. I would appreciate speaking with anyone who has been through this process.

GoSLow

When you build a boat up to your needs and demands,whim and fancy, the boat normally will only suit you. Forget about good resale value unless you can find someone with the same way of thinking like yours. Which is very hard to do.On cost overrun , even when a project which was estimated and calculated by a team of engineers and a team of well experienced purchaser, still there is budgeted allocation of about 20 % to cater for the unforseen circumtances. I personally had to halted my own project and re allign my way of thinking to minimise loses in future and cut down real live operating cost e.g marina alongside cost. By taking advise from these forum members I had actually save a lots of the monies for my boat construction. Mine is wood anyway.

[Tad]

GoSo,

MCM was just the first larger construction management group that came to mind. I would certainly expect them to do a good job on a moderate sized powerboat even though lately they have done a number of larger sailing vessels. The principals are the same, but everything depends on the individual involved. Expect them to be more expensive, but to offer more service and broader experience.

If I was in your position I would talk to of number of managers and get some idea of cost from each. The only fair way to price this work is by the hour. Every project is different and demands different emphasis, thus cost can vary a great deal. Some owner's lay down strict rules, some want a great deal of involvement, others just want a weekly report. If the builder also appoints a project manager, your (owner's rep) job can be easier or harder, and one can't tell this until everyone is in the same room with the blinds closed and ready to arm wrestle.

Local management can be good, it can also be very bad. Usually someone from away is best, but not always. The manager must understand the culture and expectations of the owner/designer, and he or she must also understand the culture and expectations of the builders, this is not easy. You want a manager who is respected by the builder, but is not best buddies with them. They must be able to strongly represent your interest, but not stall the project, and they must be willing to stand up when they make a bad call.

Your project manager can only work for one party, you, unfortunately some don't clearly understand this.

All the best, Tad

[GoSlow]

Tad,

Thanks for the information. In your previosu post you refenced Bob Riemens and gave his telephone number. Is he with MCM?

Thanks