A new concept for future boats.

[Vladimir Zenin]

It is impossible to compete with a propeller as a principal propulsion system for a watercraft. It improved more than 100 years. Its production is perfect to meet a claim of any consumer. It is impossible to obstruct this progress. But I believe there are ideas and inventions which will force slowly out the propeller. I see one of such ideas. This idea is suggested to us by Mother Nature. Most of the sea creatures use a travelling wave propulsion principle to swim in the water. I have already told about travelling wave propulsion effectiveness and gave an example of the travelling wave generator for a human-powered boat in my threads 8191 and 8257.
Now I want to discuss others aspects of the travelling wave propulsion. Would you like your boat could go in the water, swim and go out of the water itself? Would you like to go ‘boating’ on the beaches and roads? Would you like to overcome a marsh using your boat? You can do all of these things with a boat with a travelling wave propulsion. Just fancy a boat with a bottom made of a flexible material in which you can generate a travelling wave as it is shown on the picture. The flexible membrane AB is a waterproof support of the boat/marsh buggy. This boat includes a travelling wave generating apparatus for generating running waves in the membrane. The mechanical movement of the membrane moves everything (water, sand, snow and others) located in volume between crests in the opposite direction of the boat/marsh buggy movement. This transport can go there and everywhere.

[tamkvaitis]

Corect me if I am wring, but you want to create a huge snake. In theory it may move, but pracicly making hull of a sailboat which is flexible is very complicated. And what about ordinary sea wawes? will your concept work then the boat is roling?

[Deering]

How come most of the really whacky ideas on this list seem to come from Australians? I really gotta go visit that country!

Actually, this is an interesting idea. A few thoughts:

1. It seems to me that the flexibility of the membrane would need to vary based on the media it's traveling over. In water - more flexible - more ampitude; on pavement - quite rigid.

2. How long would such a membrane last?

3. Most of the sea critters that move by waves move really sloooow. Anything that clips along uses some sort of fin. Why would this concept be different?

4. Generating these traveling waves - bet the boat would be noisy as hell, and the whole thing would vibrate.

[Tim B]

Using fish-like fins has been tried, very efficient, just prohibitively expensive because of the complexity.

For really useful propulsion we need something that sits in sea-water or air (or both) and keeps working, whenever.

Tim B.

[VladZenin]

Corect me if I am wring, but you want to create a huge snake. In theory it may move, but pracicly making hull of a sailboat which is flexible is very complicated. And what about ordinary sea wawes? will your concept work then the boat is roling?
I think you have to familiarize yourself with my threads:
1. Fishes and dolphins are powerful propellers,
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8191 and
2. How fast can we swim with a dolphin like propeller?,
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8257.
Fishes and dolphins don’t know a theory. They swim practically and use the travelling wave propulsion. Making part of the hull flexible is not very complicated. You know very well there are lots of boats made entirely of the flexible material. It is not my concept. It is a concept of the Mother Nature. It will work when the boat will rolling.

[VladZenin]

How come most of the really whacky ideas on this list seem to come from Australians? I really gotta go visit that country!

Actually, this is an interesting idea. A few thoughts:

1. It seems to me that the flexibility of the membrane would need to vary based on the media it's traveling over. In water - more flexible - more ampitude; on pavement - quite rigid.

2. How long would such a membrane last?

3. Most of the sea critters that move by waves move really sloooow. Anything that clips along uses some sort of fin. Why would this concept be different?

4. Generating these traveling waves - bet the boat would be noisy as hell, and the whole thing would vibrate.
Thank you for the fair words. Welcome to Australia.
1. You are right about the flexibility.
2. Testing will answer your question.
3. Dolphins can swim about 75 km/h and some fishes can swim faster than 100 km/h. See my thread ‘How fast can we swim with a dolphin like propeller?’ http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8257.
4. The flexible membrane will oscillate with a frequency of a few periods per second. It will not create a nois.

[kach22i]

Just fancy a boat with a bottom made of a flexible material in which you can generate a travelling wave as it is shown on the picture.
The idea of a wiggly worm boat is attractive somehow because I like different. However my experiences from owning a hovercraft tells me there will be lots of wear on the contact material (skirt on a hovercraft).

I suppose that if the contact material could be bio-based and heal/repair/regenerate itself there could be more than limited life to such a membrane contact material.

One alternate to an actual contact material which is prone to excessive wear might be electro-magnetic energy or plusating air curtain. Once again we are soon back to the hovercraft and leva-train model types.

[VladZenin]

Using fish-like fins has been tried, very efficient, just prohibitively expensive because of the complexity.

For really useful propulsion we need something that sits in sea-water or air (or both) and keeps working, whenever.

Tim B.
I don't offer to use fish-like fins or tails. My idea is different (see my threads). My propulsion device sits in sea-water and keeps working.

[Deering]

I was envisioning something more along the lines of jellyfish propulsion than a dolphin. But OK!

[VladZenin]

The idea of a wiggly worm boat is attractive somehow because I like different.
The marsh buggy needs a bottom made of a flexible material. Usual boats or ships can have a flexible material on a surface of the submerged boards. They don’t need to have a flexible hull.

[kjell]

Are you using my technique of land propulsion?
Hydrurga leptonyx

[trouty]

all the really whacky ideas come from downunder, is because we spend so much time upside down - all the blood runs to our heads!

I like this membrane idea - now combine it with plasmoidal induction And I reckon it might be a goer!:D

Cheers!

[VladZenin]

Are you using my technique of land propulsion?
Hydrurga leptonyx
Hi Kjell,
This creature uses a caterpillar propulsion (see picture).
My propulsion is different

[VladZenin]

all the really whacky ideas come from downunder, is because we spend so much time upside down - all the blood runs to our heads!

Sharks & lawyers...is there any difference?:?:

I like this membrane idea - now combine it with plasmoidal induction And I reckon it might be a goer!:D

Cheers!
Could you ask me something earnest please?

[masrapido]

So, where's that device? You started the thread with an idea, not a device. And if by your own words at the start of the thread, propellers are impossible to improve on, what good is your (device?) idea?

[VladZenin]

You can see a kinematic scheme of the pedal boat with the traveling waves propulsion in my thread http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8191. I have some more devices for traveling waves generating.

[kjell]

Hi Kjell,
This creature uses a caterpillar propulsion (see picture).
My propulsion is different

I can’t see how the Hydrurga leptonyx can convert its land propulsion to caterpillar propulsion without wheels

[VladZenin]

You can see on my picture is shown the caterpillar-insect but not a wheeled tractor/tank caterpillar track.

[kjell]

Hi Kjell,
This creature uses a caterpillar propulsion (see picture).
My propulsion is different

I don’t think the Caterpillar-Insect and the Hydrurga leptonyx are using the same propulsion technique. The Hydrurga leptonyx has no legs.

[kach22i]

You can see a kinematic scheme of the pedal boat with the traveling waves propulsion in my thread http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8191. I have some more devices for traveling waves generating.
That was a good thread, an once again I did not mean to step on anyone's toes when asking how well their first working model performed.

You should see my first original design hovercraft skirt - did not work so well.;)

[VladZenin]

Could you clerify your statement please?

[VladZenin]

I don’t think the Caterpillar-Insect and the Hydrurga leptonyx are using the same propulsion technique. The Hydrurga leptonyx has no legs.
Look closely at their movement and you can see they move a similar way as shown on my picture. Your caterpillar has legs to hold out on the branches.

[kjell]

Look closely at their movement and you can see they move a similar way as shown on my picture. Your caterpillar has legs to hold out on the branches.


OK. Let’s forget abut caterpillar and Seal propulsions. Your propulsion is different.
Do you have any picture or video clip where we can se it working?

[kach22i]

He said he has a working model of it, or something similar to it in the other thread. I would like to see it too.

[kach22i]

Could you clerify your statement please?
Not really, water under the bridge now - letting it go.

[VladZenin]

Hi Kjell and Kach. This picture for you. Ask any question please.

[trouty]

Could you ask me something earnest please?

How did you know my middle name is Ernest? :confused: Spooky indeed!

Now...could not - your idea of travelling wave propulsion, be combined with - my idea for plasmoidal induction...to create a standing electron wave for propulsion?

I have posted in some detail hereabouts in times past, about plasmoidal induction...perhaps you mised it?

I consider that, a rotating, or oscillating electron induction wave might well mimmick the wave type propulsion you describe, yet remove the difficulty of mechanising your depicted concept? no?

Just a thought, interested to hear what you think!

Cheers!

[h_zwakenberg]

Now, this is funny, I have to participate, bear with me! ;)

As a matter of fact, travelling wave propulsion has been used for many years, we used to call it 'surfing'.

Please note that in a wave train, the individual water molecules are NOT moving forward, they only move UP and DOWN. Ergo: if you want to use 'travelling wave propulsion', this can only work if the hull is smaller than one quarter of a wave length, so that it can position itself - like a surfer - on the downward gradient of a wave. If the hull is much longer than that, it cannot extract propulsive energy from the waves by its hull alone.....

Only if the hull is so small, that it can put itself on the downward gradient of a wave, gravity will make it go downward...

Like I said, in the old days we used to call this 'surfing'.... :)

[VladZenin]

How did you know my middle name is Ernest? :confused: Spooky indeed!

Now...could not - your idea of travelling wave propulsion, be combined with - my idea for plasmoidal induction...to create a standing electron wave for propulsion?

I have posted in some detail hereabouts in times past, about plasmoidal induction...perhaps you mised it?

I consider that, a rotating, or oscillating electron induction wave might well mimmick the wave type propulsion you describe, yet remove the difficulty of mechanising your depicted concept? no?

Just a thought, interested to hear what you think!

Cheers!
I beg your pardon! I am really know nothing about plasmoid(al) induction. I agree it will bi more modern to create electric propulsion device using for example electromagnetic induction. I think it is possible to generate running deformation waves this way. As to plasmoidal induction we can discuss this problem after you familiarize me with this phenomenon.

[VladZenin]

Now, this is funny, I have to participate, bear with me! ;)

As a matter of fact, travelling wave propulsion has been used for many years, we used to call it 'surfing'.

Please note that in a wave train, the individual water molecules are NOT moving forward, they only move UP and DOWN. Ergo: if you want to use 'travelling wave propulsion', this can only work if the hull is smaller than one quarter of a wave length, so that it can position itself - like a surfer - on the downward gradient of a wave. If the hull is much longer than that, it cannot extract propulsive energy from the waves by its hull alone.....

Only if the hull is so small, that it can put itself on the downward gradient of a wave, gravity will make it go downward...

Like I said, in the old days we used to call this 'surfing'.... :)
You have to read all threads about sine wave propulsion and about travelling wave propulsion carefully. We are talking about others things.

[lasasj]

I have pondered the same idea for quite some time. I have a somewhat simple way of creating the sine wave. I'm hoping to try it this summer.

[Timothy]

My interest is in a deployable devise for generating power in the shallow water or air between a cataramans hull . I recently saw this video. It is not a propulsion device but I thought it might be applicable to this thread as it does not use rotary motion but uses a flexible membrane instead to generate power. It is remarkably simple. http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4224763.html

[Marco1]

Wihtout wanting to doubd the feasibility of the boat with a wiggeling bottom, I think it is far too radical to have an immediate future simply because you want to change the propultion and the boat and make it amphibian too, and that is going a tad too far in one single step.

However going back to the original statement in the first post, "it is difficult to compete with the propeller", I disagree.

Perhaps that is precielsy what must be done. Dolphine can travell at high speed with a wave motion. In stead of turning the whole boat into a molusk, why not have a normal prooven rigid displacement hull, propelled by a dophine like propeller?
A boat with a submerged "tail" that waves around and pushes the boat.

Now don't ask me how to do it...diesel engine gearbox, leaver and crankshaft...I don't know, you figure it out, but it must be a heck of a lot simpler than a mushy bottom boat.

[Obsession]

A boat with a submerged "tail" that waves around and pushes the boat.People complain about docking with surface drives - a tail would be going a lot further to get into a slip or berth.

[Marco1]

Docking problems eh? Haven even invented it yet and already have detractors...jeee.

what about if the whole keel is a fin that flaps? It does not have to stick out at the back.

However I like the idea of a tail at the back...if you go past another boat that did not stop when you were on the dock, a push on the gas and ... splash! :D

[VladZenin]

I have pondered the same idea for quite some time. I have a somewhat simple way of creating the sine wave. I'm hoping to try it this summer.
I wish you every success! Unfortunately I have no opportunity to do this on a boat and decided to build a toy amphibious vehicle like you can see on the picture

[messabout]

Timothy:The flexible membrane generator thingy is waaay clever and should have been obvious to all the genius types like me and everyone else on this forum. The dude in the video appears to be a nerd, but what this world needs is more nerds who actually produce working models such as the one he demonstrates. Actually, Bill Gates is/was a nerdy type and look where that landed him.

Now back to the original thread.

[messabout]

Timothy:The flexible membrane generator thingy is waaay clever and should have been obvious to all the genius types like me and everyone else on this forum. The dude in the video appears to be a nerd, but what this world needs is more nerds who actually produce working models such as the one he demonstrates. Actually, Bill Gates is/was a nerdy type and look where that landed him.

Now back to the original thread.

[messabout]

We need not dismiss the wave membrane idea just yet. It is clear that there are some serious mechanical and material issues to overcome before it can become a viable method. Impossible? No!

I recall a comment that I once read in a boaty book. The book; The 40 Knot Sailboat by Bernard Smith. The comment was: "Dammit don't tell me why this won't work, tell me how it might be made to work." We may also recall that Edison was told that his light bulb would not work during his quest for a solution.

[Bintz]

Dear All


Here is my beginning (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/most-compact-watercraft-offshore-touring-31107.html) in this forum. I'm an engineer and an inventor at the same time, so it is very hard to leave an opposite opinion on the other's ideas. Please understand me..

We should accept below notes first of all because it's a sure natural phenomenon.
Please note that in a wave train, the individual water molecules are NOT moving forward, they only move UP and DOWN.

I proceeded three cases of virtual experiments with below poor drawings.

The most beneficial environment in which the watercraft can go as speedy as possible is the shallow water.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2715/4339950290_f0b339c87f.jpg
- The membrane's moving speed should by very fast. If it is slow, the mass in the drawing can't cause a reaction force because there will be a circulation of water through the left and right openings under the watercraft.
- It can be beneficial to block the two openings like a hovercraft.

On a deep water, the energy-loosing-circulation will occur widely under the watercraft. So I imagine the propulsion speed has quite lower limit.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2683/4339950308_3564570cf1.jpg

Finally the watercraft can't move on the ground. There is no mass to push and the membrane is just moving up and down like the water wave.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2768/4339206163_8ec437991c.jpg


I've read several kind replies of messabout.. You are respectable indeed..
We need not dismiss the wave membrane idea just yet. It is clear that there are some serious mechanical and material issues to overcome before it can become a viable method. Impossible? No!
But I think this idea should be dismissed.

Although, instead of the idea, here is my alternative idea expected to work quite well.. I can't suggest anyone to make a working demonstrator or try a test..
This my idea(a cross-sectional drawing) is also useless.. So sorry.. :(
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4339374117_d3e0112394.jpg


Bintz

[lasasj]

Though not an inventor, I too am an engineer. I am attempting to make a human powered raft for a local 5 mile race down a large river. My design is very similar to your last diagram with the exception that I only will have one flexible membrane at the bottom, and the bottom of the raft will serve as the top of the wave channel. I have no intention of ever traveling on land with it, and the raft will most likely be powered by 3-4 humans, as per competition rules.

Still working on some final drawings, but I will attach them when they are complete.

[VladZenin]

It is interesting concept. I would like to see the final drawings. Do you know about my thread: Traveling wave jet propulsion: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=76783? Your concept is something different.

[Bintz]

Hello lasasj


Sorry, my expression was rude..
Although, instead of the idea, here is my alternative idea expected to work quite well.. I can't suggest anyone to make a working demonstrator or try a test..
This my idea(a cross-sectional drawing) is also useless.. So sorry.. :(
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4339374117_d3e0112394.jpg

My design is very similar to your last diagram with the exception that I only will have one flexible membrane at the bottom, and the bottom of the raft will serve as the top of the wave channel.

At this moment, I hope to correct my last reply. I had to say, "I can't suggest anyone to make a working demonstrator for any commercial purposes."

This opinion has been from seeing the difference of movements between swimming animals and moving watercrafts. When we consider the penguin's movement under water, its whole body is a drive-system. Every muscle in its body works when it swims and generates heat which means the energy loss. The heat is beneficial for the penguin to live out.

But how about a watercraft? We should make its moving portion as small as possible for reduction of the energy loss because big moving part causes big amount of heat and the heat is useless.
The idea of traveling-wave-propulsion is expected to give much inspiration to people when it moves on water as a completed watercraft. But ①it has big moving portion (inside the system) and ②most of the moving portion contacts with water (outside the system). Both of them generate heat, the energy loss in action. So the idea can't be efficient enough to be an alternative to propeller in future.


Bintz

[portacruise]

Hello lasasj


Sorry, my expression was rude..




At this moment, I hope to correct my last reply. I had to say, "I can't suggest anyone to make a working demonstrator for any commercial purposes."

This opinion has been from seeing the difference of movements between swimming animals and moving watercrafts. When we consider the penguin's movement under water, its whole body is a drive-system. Every muscle in its body works when it swims and generates heat which means the energy loss. The heat is beneficial for the penguin to live out.

But how about a watercraft? We should make its moving portion as small as possible for reduction of the energy loss because big moving part causes big amount of heat and the heat is useless.
The idea of traveling-wave-propulsion is expected to give much inspiration to people when it moves on water as a completed watercraft. But ①it has big moving portion (inside the system) and ②most of the moving portion contacts with water (outside the system). Both of them generate heat, the energy loss in action. So the idea can't be efficient enough to be an alternative to propeller in future.


Bintz

Good comments Bintz. Here's a system that might have some potential because it uses water friction for propulsion and turns things around. The higher the surface skin friction, the faster it goes. No worry about muscle coordination like required in a "whole body" system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psyl-AQ0m2A It was discussed in the human power boats thread #574. A modified, motorized version called the "hydrocopter" uses the same principle but is much faster since it rides above the surface without any displacement losses.

Porta

[portacruise]

Good comments Bintz. Here's a system that might have some potential because it uses water friction for propulsion and turns things around. The higher the surface skin friction, the faster it goes. No worry about muscle coordination like required in a "whole body" system. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psyl-AQ0m2A It was discussed in the human power boats thread #574. A modified, motorized version called the "hydrocopter" uses the same principle but is much faster since it rides above the surface without any displacement losses.

Porta

Sorry that was post #574 on PEDAL powered boat in this forum. Here's the hydrocopter image: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/1594d1092498029-wingboat-design-hydrocopter2lg.jpg

P

[VladZenin]

... the watercraft can't move on the ground. Bintz[/QUOTE]

My picture explains how traveling wave works when crossing the firm soil. Car wheels work the same way.

[Boston]

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[VladZenin]

I would like to hear your opinion about screw drive’s advantages and disadvantages

[ancient kayaker]

Ancient but interesting thread. I am working on an idea for sailing directly upwind which uses the principle of a sinusiodal drive. You may wish to keep an eye on this thread as the idea evolves: it is now in the building state and I will continue to report when it reaches the testing stage.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/sailing-directly-upwind-29981.html

[rwatson]

... the watercraft can't move on the ground. Bintz

My picture explains how traveling wave works when crossing the firm soil. Car wheels work the same way.[/QUOTE]

Hey Vlad

Your ideas are really going in the right direction IMHO. I have been interested in the concept for a long time, and even introduced a few threads about it over the years.

My preference for the "undulating" amphibious propulsion system would be a series of air inflated rubber tubes, perhaps moving a series of protective surfaces.

For this you would need a compresser, air lines and no through hull holes.

This would do away with the cumbersome "push rods" in your earlier diagrams, and make the mechanics much simpler and more robust. It would also lie flat against the hull when deflated (not in use) if you wanted to engage sails or auxilliary props.

The undulating method could be supplemented by a retractable prop for deep water operation, but for sand, shallow or rocky places, you would be just like the seals in the previous posts.

It would get you to remote and fascinating places that other vehicles could not contemplate

[VladZenin]

You will continue to think this way until you understand how travelling wave propulsion device work.

[VladZenin]

Ancient but interesting thread. I am working on an idea for sailing directly upwind which uses the principle of a sinusiodal drive. You may wish to keep an eye on this thread as the idea evolves: it is now in the building state and I will continue to report when it reaches the testing stage.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/sailing-directly-upwind-29981.html

I am looking forward with excitement to receiving your news.

[portacruise]

My question is what is the goal to be accomplished by this future boat that cannot already be done with existing vehicles? Don't we already have submarine, amphibious, all terrain craft, hovercraft or even helicopters, that would work for every conceivable terrain? Is the goal to have the versatility with more economical drive, at greater speed, with less power or less weight? Is the goal to surpass selected sea creature propulsion by mechanical means?

I believe a version of the hydrocopter might have the capability for land travel if the propelling blades were strong enough, so might be a contender.

Porta

[portacruise]

My question is what is the goal to be accomplished by this future boat that cannot already be done with existing vehicles? Don't we already have submarine, amphibious, all terrain craft, hovercraft or even helicopters, that would work for every conceivable terrain? Is the goal to have the versatility with more economical drive, at greater speed, with less power or less weight? Is the goal to surpass selected sea creature propulsion by mechanical means?

I believe a version of the hydrocopter might have the capability for land travel if the propelling blades were strong enough, so might be a contender.

Porta

[VladZenin]

If you can’t see goals, this problem is not interesting for you. Try to attract others attention to your hydrocopter version.

[VladZenin]

[/QUOTE]...The undulating method could be supplemented by a retractable prop for deep water operation, but for sand, shallow or rocky places, you would be just like the seals in the previous posts. Originally Posted by rwatson

I did it for you. I have found this source of information: Undulating body propulsion system, United States Patent 3 623 566. In this patent you can read: The present invention pertains to a unique propulsion method particularly suited for land vehicles.

[Boston]

I would think it boils down to efficiency, the screw drive or the undulating drive both; I would think, have much higher resistances than say wheels or propellers. Ends up being a mater of fuel economy although in some terrains the screw drive seems like it would actually be able to move better.

I thought it was slick that it can go dead sideways as well

but still not much practical use unless your living on a semi frozen tundra

cheers
B

[VladZenin]

Unfortunately a working model of the amphibious vehicle with the travelling wave’s propulsion still does not exist. That is why it is hard to compare these drives. But what is clear for me in some terrains they would be able to compete with each other.

Thank you

[rwatson]

...The undulating method I did it for you. I have found this source of information: Undulating body propulsion system, United States Patent 3 623 566. In this patent you can read: The present invention pertains to a unique propulsion method particularly suited for land vehicles.[/QUOTE]

Well, no, you didnt really.

"A rotating control assembly regulates longitudinal expansion and contraction of cells ....."

Thats a mechanical method, though it does manipulate "cells", but there is no discussin on inflating and deflating with compressed air

and further

"substantially flexible spine fixed by said connecting means to the frame only at the center of mass"

He is using a mechanical technique.

[rwatson]

I would think it boils down to efficiency, the screw drive or the undulating drive both; I would think, have much higher resistances than say wheels or propellers.but still not much practical use unless your living on a semi frozen tundra

Valid points Boston, but if you have been 4 wheel driving, you will know what a limited range of enviroments you can travel across, and you have to carry winches, spades etc for the unexpected.

Also, a lot of unexplored territory can only be accessed by open water.

In my mind (twisted though it may be) - I travel say 100 kilometres of fairly rough open water in conventional boat fashion, "crawl" across a shallow sandy bar entrance that blocks a river (that would bog a 4wd, and be too far away for a small hovercraft), float up to the first set of rapids (that would sink a 4wd) crawl up the river over the boulders and loose pebbles (that would ground a boat and smash the underboady of a hovercraft), crawl across a boggy button grass plain (that would halt a hovercraft with the small stunted bushes preventing sealing around the skirts, and would bog a 4wd) and continue on into the unexplored area with minimal environmental damage due to the load spreading of the inflatable exterior.

Just a dream at this stage, and lots of practical problems to overcome.

[ancient kayaker]

I look to Nature to provide inspiration when prevented by a novel problem such as that. Hmmm: open water, bog, rapids, pebbles and swamp. That would have to be a bird!

[VladZenin]

Let’s talk about travelling wave’s propulsion please. Picture below can help to continue our discution.

[rwatson]

The most obvious reference for a wave powered boat is

http://gas2.org/2008/03/27/japanese-man-to-hang-10-in-pacific-journey-with-wave-powered-boat/

where a japanese guy travelled across the pacific by wave power alone.

Thats not "travelling wave", thats wave travelling, but maybe there are principles that apply

[Boston]

interesting boat there Mr Watson

[VladZenin]

Thank you Mr. Watson. I should learn more about it.
It seems to me a new aquatic sport Water Walking Ball also uses traveling wave’s propulsion.

[Boston]

how about rotating ovoids kinda like elongated spheres
they could even be solid but they would still be "walking" along a wave of there own creation

rather than an undulating membrane

same principal just differing approach

[VladZenin]

No comment...

[Boston]

oh sure
did I hit the nail on the head or something
let me guess
the rotating ovoids within a membrane to keep em clean

so
how close was I :P :P :P :P

you can tell me
I promise I wont put it on the internet :D

[VladZenin]

English language is rich enough to explain everything. Could you make clear your idea or give us a picture please? I can’t comment your writing.

[rwatson]

how about rotating ovoids kinda like elongated spheres they could even be solid but they would still be "walking" along a wave of there own creation . rather than an undulating membrane .
same principal just differing approach

Yes, a valid concept. As I say, I was keen on avoiding as much mechanical stuff as possible, and the ovals would have to "fit" somewhere when not in use. They would certainly take up less space than say wheels or other mechanism.

Rather than "undulate", I was envisaging quite robust "pillows" that inflated and deflated like compressed air shock absorbers, with quite a bit of muscle behind them to lift and propel heavy craft.

Better not say too much more or Vladd will get miffed.

[Boston]

I was kinda picturing a series of cylinders that instead of being round in cross section were maybe ovoid
place them like rollers one behind the other inside a membrane and you have a sinusoidal wave machine

[VladZenin]

To have a traveling wave machine you need to rotate these cylinders at equal phase intervals so as to produce a traveling wave in the flexible membrane so that a complete wave passes during each full rotation of the cylinders. On my picture of the traveling wave's propulsion device the crankshaft plays this role.

[rwatson]

That looks like an ordinary car crankshaft. Surely it wouldnt be any use for making waves for a boat ?

[VladZenin]

It will be very useful if it will be made in compliance with my traveling wave propulsion device's picture on this page.

[rwatson]

I cant see how that will work. The camshaft appears to be from a horizontal four cylinder engine, where one piston on the opposing side is always opposite the other two cylinders.
Your device of continuous sine wave vertical rods will require a continuous variable 'throw', and a lot more lobes than this camshaft has.
More information would be helpfull.

[VladZenin]

You are right. The crankshaft length and a number of rods depend of a sine wave’s number we need. Of course we can use a sectional crankshaft (made of identical sections).

[VladZenin]

More explanations.
It is evident in order to set in the motion this traveling wave's propulsion device we need two the same crankshafts working synchronously.

[Lurvio]

Sorry to throw sand to the gearbox Vlad, but the travelling wave won't work on hard surfaces. For a simple reason. You have a membrane that doesn't move lengthwise, the friction ensures that the boat stays in place, only the point connecting to the surface below will change with the wave. On top of liquid it might work, because there's no similar friction.

To make a viable vehicle to travel all kinds of terrain, my money would be on a rubber track, the kind on caterpillars (the machine, not the animal), snowmobiles etc. They are proven technology in a wariety of applications. I have been around enough construction machines to know this.

Right kind of track surface pattern should get enough grip to move quite well on water too, after all, even snowmobiles have been driven over water, they even have competitions on it! WikiPedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowmobile_skipping) :p

Here's a sketch (http://lurvio.net/forumpics/crawler.png) of what I had in mind.

Lurvio

[VladZenin]

More explicative pictures

[VladZenin]

It is little known that there are at least four separate but sometimes interfacing tides caused by lunar and sun gravitation in geometric relationship with locations on the Earth's surface. The best known is the sea-tide, the exact times of which repeat every so many weeks, months and years. There is also the inner-core tide affecting the molten core of the Earth (Core Tide) which plays a major role in the cycles of earthquakes and eruptions, the land-tide (called Earth-tide, where the ground rises towards the Moon about 8 inches per day as the Moon goes overhead and then recedes again when the Moon goes below the horizon) and the air-tide affecting the height of the atmosphere.
The gravitational pull of the sun and moon creates two types of sea-tides, high and low! As the moon rotates around Earth, tidal bulges occur. The bulge is really a large wave beneath the moon that moves across the earth. On the opposite side of Earth, there is a second bulge. These bulges are high tides. Between each high tide, there is a low tide. There are usually 2 high and 2 low tides occur each 24 hours and 50 minutes, because that is how long it takes the moon to rotate around Earth.
These Tides are the global waves traveling in one direction from east to west in the tropical belt of the oceans. Both the moon and the sun act as the driving force of these global traveling waves. Have you got any idea how to use them?
http://globalaircirculation.blogspot.com/

[mark775]

The Moon orbits the Earth about every 27.3 days. You may have meant to say "the Earth spins relative to the moon in 24 hours 50 minutes."
Of interest; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUSTXUis_ys&feature=fvw
Havn't tried, but probably not much good on water!

[VladZenin]

You are right. Just Earth spinning and gravity generate global traveling waves.

[burley1]

coming from the jellyfish idea, i can see that there would be a down/rest stroke as the membrane recoils. is this true? the swimming stroke "breaststroke" has a power stroke and a recoil, hence the reason you olrinate your legs and arms.
I may be totally wrong, but that's how I envisioned it.
if we are talking about a cuttlefish or sea snake then that's very different, and i totally agree on that idea.