piss-poor boat plans!......

[Caldera Boats]

What is up with all you so called boat designers making completely **** plans? Learn to DRAFT! these half assed scribbled kids drawings of boats with a few numbers and "formulas", these abmoinations you call boatplans? $125! Kiss my ASS!!!!!!
:p

[CET]

And a Merry Christmas to you, too.:rolleyes: :D

[safewalrus]

Looks like we got an "expert" who can't read his plans and wants to take it out/blame everybody else:rolleyes:

Nice one CET, but he's probably a little too thick to understand!:D :D :D

[D'ARTOIS]

Who made what? Oh yeah, ...beer for ballast.....

[Caldera Boats]

Thank you. :)

Merry Christmas to you!.

----------------------------------------
The problem with poorly drafted plans goes back a long time. I doubt anything that I rant about here is going to change the way a designer draws up plans. I just hope, for futures sake that the young designers coming up learn and utilize drafting standards. Boats are no different than airplanes, automobiles or anything else when it comes to drafting, except that the latter usually has highly detailed drawings showing a measurement for each and every part and dimension. The difference from one designer to the other is huge. Some use offset tables, some use full size flat patterns, some actually use measurements.

I prefer an offset table. Any designer who does not know and fully understand lofting, has no business selling plans.

I have wasted enough money on unusable plans to warrant this "ranting" and blow off a little steam.........
:p
Thanks.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SailDesign]

CAldera,
You list yourself as a designer. Why not build to your own plans and save the rant?
Or is it your own plans you're ranting about... :)
Steve

[sharpii2]

What is up with all you so called boat designers making completely **** plans? Learn to DRAFT! these half assed scribbled kids drawings of boats with a few numbers and "formulas", these abmoinations you call boatplans? $125! Kiss my ASS!!!!!!
:p

Perhaps, Caldera, you should show us an example of these "@#%#(faulty) plans'. I just recently finished drawing some boat plans of my own. They are for a 3 x 12ft sailing scow which is little more than a box with a fore and aft curved deck and bottom.

I wanted them to be on standard 8.5 x 11 sheets so copying them and mailing them would not be a problem. It turned out taking 18 of them. I have everything from 'lines' and 'construction layout' to drawings of jigs needed to make the hardest to 'get right' parts.

Once I build the prototype to make sure it works (after all, this is the 1st set of plans I will ever try to market) I will sell the plans as well as simplified lofting instructions for around $35 apiece.

Showing us an example of what you consider '$#@& (faulty) Plans' (or describing them in detail) could help us future designers avoid pissing you off.

Bob

P.S. atached is a presentation drawing of my first (hopefully) marketable boat.

[lewisboats]

Love to look at it but you (like I often do) forgot the attachement

Steve

[CET]

Thank you. :)

Merry Christmas to you!.

----------------------------------------
The problem with poorly drafted plans goes back a long time. I doubt anything that I rant about here is going to change the way a designer draws up plans. I just hope, for futures sake that the young designers coming up learn and utilize drafting standards. Boats are no different than airplanes, automobiles or anything else when it comes to drafting, except that the latter usually has highly detailed drawings showing a measurement for each and every part and dimension. The difference from one designer to the other is huge. Some use offset tables, some use full size flat patterns, some actually use measurements.

I prefer an offset table. Any designer who does not know and fully understand lofting, has no business selling plans.

I have wasted enough money on unusable plans to warrant this "ranting" and blow off a little steam.........
:p
Thanks.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Caldera - do the "plans" look any better now that you are sober? :?: Sorry, I couldn't resist.v;)

Seriously, I agree with the sentiment of your original post, if not with the delivery. I purchased a set of plans earlier this year that were quite dissapointing, to say the least. The boat they describe may be a good one, but I'll never personally find out.:(

[gonzo]

Caldera Boats: I think you are one of those cheapskates that buys discount plans and expects something good. Pay for quality and you will get it. By the way, your attitude sucks.

[bodenbp]

Read our website WWW.bodenboatplans.com and you will see how we approach "qualifying " the persons who buy our plans. It costs us a lot in lost sales but we sleep well at night. Boden BP

[safewalrus]

go it Gonzo tell it like it is! :cool: Totally agree with you on this one! But CET may have something!;)

[Caldera Boats]

Caldera Boats: I think you are one of those cheapskates that buys discount plans and expects something good. Pay for quality and you will get it. By the way, your attitude sucks.

Yep, my attitude sucks!, and I'm proud of it! :D

Respect few and fear none.......

[Caldera Boats]

Here is a list of things that I think a quality set of amateur boat plans should include:

Offsets table - Always include offsets, even if you think they might not be needed, or your plans are the "No lofting required" type. Believe it or not, some boat builders still prefer to loft.

Scaled line drawings - Plan, Profile and Body view. Detail and dimension as much as possible without overcrowding the drawings. Use multiple copies of the same view if necessary. There cannot be too many details. Redundancy is ok if not overdone. Most of all! Please use standard drafting practices. There are “rules” to drafting just like everything else.

Build specifications - These are usually associated with numbered balloons on the drawings. These need to be as clear and accurate as possible. Remember, the builder reading your plans has not built this boat before.

Sub component drawings – These need to be FULLY defined with ALL dimensions. That means dimensions on everything, including all angles, holes, radiuses and hardware. If the builder chooses to vary from these plans, that is his choice, but the details are all there for the builder who prefers to build exactly like the plans.

Bill of materials – All lumber, hardware, fasteners, epoxy, glue and any other materials needed to complete the design. These may vary with each builder, but a good solid estimate would be nice.

Build Schedule – There is a specific order to building a boat, this is just a list of that order. This can be a lifesaver for a first time or amateur builder who may have never built a boat before. What to do, and when to do it.

Building frame and/or mold drawings - Molds, jigs, strongbacks, ladderframes or whatever is needed to set up the building frame. Professional builders can get molds from the lofting, but detailed drawings are real nice for amateur builders or plans that are "No lofting required"

A few things that are nice to see in a set of plans, but are not required are:
Flat patterns for panels
Scantling table
Photos
Build options
Sail plan options
Digital drawings (.DXF is standard) – These are great for cutting panels on a CNC router.

I’m sure there is more that I’m overlooking, but this is a good start.

Please, Do not pay for plans that have not been built before!!!
If the boat has not been prototyped and tested, the designer should NOT sell the plans to the public. Some designers will offer first time plans to builders for free in exchange for details and photos of the prototyping process.

[JEM]

I disagree on a couple things. Or maybe I should say I have a different opinion.

Offsets table - That's a matter of preference. If the table is what truly sells plans, the designer will discover that soon enough.

Prototyping: Lots of good designs are built from plans that are not prototyped. It's a matter of how much the designer is trusted.

However, I will say this: I deal with canoes and kayaks. Should someone build a 60' power cat from drawings I do? NO! ;)

[gonzo]

An amateur design, by its nature, will have shortcomings. It is not required to have anything in particular. If some fool buys them to save money, and it makes him proud, well it is all said. Most people buy boats plans that haven't been built because they want something unique or to win races. There is nothing wrong with it.
An offset table and scantlings is all that is necessary. All the rest is unnecessary. Accurately scaled plans are unrealistic. Paper changes with humidity and temperature changes.

[CET]

You want all of the items you listed…AND, you want them for $125? You may need to do a lot more ass-kissing to get them. LOL!

Merry Christmas!

[sharpii2]

I'm going to try again to atach my presentation drawing.

Her goes.

[JEM]

I'm going to try again to atach my presentation drawing.

Her goes.

oh ok...I've seen this one on another thread.

I think that will be a nice project.

[BOATMIK]

Here is a list of things that I think a quality set of amateur boat plans should include:

Offsets table
Scaled line drawings
Build specifications
Sub component drawings
Bill of materials
Build Schedule
Building frame and/or mold drawings
A few things that are nice to see in a set of plans, but are not required are:
Flat patterns for panels
Scantling table
Photos
Build options
Sail plan options
Digital drawings (.DXF is standard) – These are great for cutting panels on a CNC router.

I’m sure there is more that I’m overlooking, but this is a good start.

Please, Do not pay for plans that have not been built before!!!
If the boat has not been prototyped and tested, the designer should NOT sell the plans to the public. Some designers will offer first time plans to builders for free in exchange for details and photos of the prototyping process.

A very good list - there are exceptions, but if the above list is not covered reasonably well, then the plans are probably not worth the candle. There are probably some exceptions too - like with smaller stitch and glue boats there is no need for offsets.

The final statement however is not logical - SOMEONE has to build the first boat! It does depend more than a bit on track record too.

Even building a prototype may not be enough to show that the thing works well.

I can think of many examples of poor boats that have become quite popular to first time builders (and first time sailors) because they have no reference points in their experience, so little in the way of expectations.

Just think of all the classic plans that Francis Herreshoff, Mower, Garden and others have been printed in "The Rudder" magazine - most of them were not prototyped.

However the situation is very different now with anyone who has drawn up a boat can sel the plans worldwide. Or give the plans away over the net.

In my work I deal with many of the problems that come up because of "free plans" or poorly resolved plans.

My sense is that every designer - even professionals - are truly excellent at some aspects of creating a plan and pretty poor at one or two others. There are designers that do fantastic bills of materials, but are careless with offsets, there are ones that design great looking boats but have a poor sense of construction procedure. And so on.

THAT INCLUDES MYSELF - I know I have weaknesses and strengths and a checklist like the above is a damn fine way of pulling myself into line.

Anyone who reckons their plans are perfect is fooling themselves - there is always room for improvement.

However - and here is the rub for plan consumers - it takes a LOT of time to develop up a plan that covers all the above aspects.

For example for my Eureka Canoe plan which covers the above list (no table of offsets though - the boat is stitch and glue, prototypes have been built to check the panel shapes) - just the plan - took about 3 weeks to complete.

This breaks down to
Design the hullshape and produce the developed panel shapes - 6 hours
To do the documentation to guide a first time builder through the process - materials lists, give a rundown on using epoxy - 110 hours
So I can't sell plans for this simple canoe for less that $75 Australian which has to cover quite a bit of postage and copying - as the extra work increases the bulk of the plans

Spending these sorts of time frames means that the plan just can't be sold cheaply or given away free.

So I guess my advice to buyers is
1/ You get what you pay for - in general - eg. I am sure there are some excellent free plans that someone gives away out of the kindnesso of their heart - but in general free plans are worth nothing at all.

2/ I would rephrase the "DON'T buy an unprototyped plan" to - Don't buy an unprototyped plan from a designer who has not track record unless you are prepared to take a substantial risk.

Michael Storer
www.ozemail.com.au/~storerm

[Caldera Boats]

I would rephrase the "DON'T buy an unprototyped plan" to - Don't buy an unprototyped plan from a designer who has not track record unless you are prepared to take a substantial risk


Excellent point! :)

Some designers have great track records and I would be happy to build one of thier boats for the first time....

[safewalrus]

From a simple sailor's viewpoint (and to a certain point covering the above) have you ever noticed that the designer's or whatever you want to call 'em never have to either clean the bloody things or make 'em work after they've gone wrong (and that includes maintenance)!:confused:

The above statement is true no matter the size of vessel from a simple kayak to a million ton tanker (but I bet that'll make 'em bleat - the darlings)!:D

[gonzo]

Some designers that go boating a lot or race are exceptions. For example, Herreshoff, Frers and Olin Stephens. The majority learn more theory than practice. I think a strong theretical knowledge is good, but without practical knowledge it produces some strange aberrations.

[Caldera Boats]

Seriously, I agree with the sentiment of your original post, if not with the delivery. I purchased a set of plans earlier this year that were quite dissapointing, to say the least. The boat they describe may be a good one, but I'll never personally find out.:(

I may be able to help you fix these plans so you can build from them. No cost, just helping out a fellow forum member. Drop me an e-mail if you are interested.
calderaboats@gmail.com

[wdnboatbuilder]

What an interesting thread

[PAR]

Ditto Gonzo's remarks about what is truly needed in a plans set. An experienced builder will make up molds from the offsets and have a look at the scantlings for the boat. Then all bets are off on how the deeds are performed, most having their own way of handling issues or methods, regardless of what a set of drawings defines. Once a skilled builder realizes how light or heavy the boat is intended from the scantlings, they build the boat. The plans may call for a tapered pocket joint and the builder may use a ship lap or scarf, but the build goes on. An amiture builder needs all the help they can get and this calls for much more detail and effort on the designer's part. Exspecting these plans to be low cost is silly.

Anyone looking for low priced/free plans, motives should be questioned. The cost of plans is but a small fraction of the build cost, why cut corners in this department, it is the definition of the vessel. I usually design around a builder, knowing what they will use and what they will do their way. Some folks shouldn't be building boats until they remodel the house (the whole house) only then will they have a clue what they're getting into. Most of the people looking for low cost plans also want cheaper planking options and will ask if suspended ceiling tile can be substituted for the expensive engine room insulation, etc. These are plans sets sold, but boats that will not likely be completed. Once they price out the planking and framing stock, the plans get stuffed in a drawer. These people shouldn't be allowed to build boats. You can build a longboat from popsicle sticks, but what's the point if you don't have an ice-cream manufacture in your pocket.

[sharpii2]

I would agree with you totally, Par. Except.

I have bought plans, myself, for boats I have never built. And those wonderous peices of paper transported me, at least temporarily, out of a miserable life of mindless repetition and very limited prospects.

Most people today will never fulfill thier dreams. And there are probably as many reasons for that as there are people. Some people 'just don't try hard enough', some are stymied by other commitments, and some just plainly suffer the lack of opportunity.

The reality of this new century is, I believe, going to be one of restriction, not expansion. The era of cheap energy is very likely to be comming to a close. And for us Americans, this is very bad news. We are a culture of mobility, both lateraly and vertical. And this has always been fueled by first cheap land, then by cheap energy.

Now we face a future much like one Europe has 'enjoyed' for almost two centuries. A world of stiffling social class distinctions, nanny state style regulations, and a permanant 'expert' and ruling class which one is more likely to be born into rather than be elevated into by his or her own efforts.

Even access to the most simple things is being claimed exclusively by the rich and their shrinking number of ever more affluent hangers on. I read in the paper the other day that 'general public' marinas are disappearing only to be replaced by 'dockuminiums' to be owned by the owners of 500k and up condominiums, who cannot stand the teeniest smudge on thier shiny, chrome plated 'perfect world'.

But I cannot give up. My ancesters left Europe because they had to. They were just plain unfit to live there. They were too uppity, restless, and just plain ornery. When faced with the choice of stealing land from stone aged natives an ocean away or being fleeced by local 'nobles', they made the only decision they could. They came.

So I used to buy plans for boats I would never build. Now I draw them. It's cheaper and it makes the dream last just that much longer. And it helps me to hang on. Who knows what new America this new century will spawn. Will it be a 'theoPlutocracy', complete with its own 'divine right of corporations and corporate kings', or will it be a boisterous hive of anarchic socialists that will give the people with the power as well as the people with the money a whole new set of reasons 'not to make the natives restless'.

I draw boats that can be launched from pickup trucks and snowmobile trailers.
I draw boats that, hopefully, can cross oceans, but need no ballast castings, furniture standadard carpentry techniques, nor any fancy, high tech, 'composite materials'. And I draw boats for 'kraphtsmen' such as myself, who have to look at a clock to see which way to turn the screw.

After all, the dream has very little staying power if it's not at least somewhat credible.

Bob

[CET]

I may be able to help you fix these plans so you can build from them. No cost, just helping out a fellow forum member. Drop me an e-mail if you are interested.
calderaboats@gmail.com

Thanks for the generous offer Caldera. I have another set of plans I think I'm going to use, but if I change my mind I will certainly let you know. I do appreciate the kind offer. Have a safe and happy New Year!

cet

[wdnboatbuilder]

I had bought a set of plans they gave some information but what I wanted to know was where was the CB and CG so I called the designer and I was told I did not need that information the plan was all figured out just place the console where ot is drawn. I was not pleased with tis answer so I have wasted 75.00 or I will spend the time to play the simpson's game. Oh yea it was a 15' OB skiff.

[JEM]

Did this thread just take a right turn I missed?

[PAR]

Most boat plans purchased, by a very large majority, don't get built, for many reasons. Historically home building anything, soap box derby racers, tree forts, backyard jungle jyms for the kids, a new TV stand (my Christmas present to the one that must be obeyed), furniture, window benches and all the little things that make a craftsman's home a bit more warm and fuzzy, just doesn't get done by well over 90% of the population.

The others subscribe to WoodButcher Magazine, look at the pretty pictures and drawings, thinking "I can do that . . ." but then they don't. It's the rare breed that still changes his oil in the car or is willing to yank out a balky water pump (I did last month) un-intimidated by the lump of shiny plastic incrusted engine that doesn't resemble the ones of my youth. We've done it to ourselves for the most part. Insisting on food, gas, shopping and a church on every street corner has reduced our need to be self-sufficient substantially. We drive down to the corner to pick our kids from the bus stop. I'm fortunate to live in an area where seeing a horse or two come down the lane isn't uncommon. Just before last weekend the lady on the other side of the road did just this with both of her little ones in tow (literally) sitting nicely in a couple of plastic RedFlyer replacements strung behind on a rope tether.

Many of the projects to someday get launched, languish about for years, decades even, as if some magic spell will bring back the spark that started it going. This is an all to common trend and again nothing new as the 40' hulks of ferro and steel left over from the craze in the 70's pile up in local land fills and junk yards. I was in an automotive bone yard a month ago looking for a bracket and saw a large, very rusted hull, that never got past the shell stage. It lived in the guy's backyard in that condition for two decades, before he sold the house and it "had to go" as a condition of sale (not an uncommon find for what it's worth, there everywhere)

The folks that gather here, with the exception of a few cast outs from other web sites, or romantics with no tools, skills or money, generally are past the dreaming and looking at pretty pictures stage and are actually interested in giving it a shot, if they haven't already. I suspect the large portion of folks that regularly log on here have built or are now building, working, repairing or restoring a boat. This is considerable different then many other sites that have either a very limited range of interests or is little more then a venue for advertising revenue.

Back in the 50's when hand held power tools (I have quite a few of these old monsters) really took off, every man's garage was a den of creation, a vessel that would give birth to something new each month, at least if you bought into the advertising hype and read too many copies of Popular Mechanics. Most guy had a garage full of lawn mowers, garden tools, kids bikes and other toys, a couple of saw horses that haven't done anything since they cut the crap out of their finger trying to plane down the edge of that sticky front door two years earlier.

The simple facts are that we are a very rare type of people. We actually build things. Everyone else would rather not be bothered and pick something out from Wal-Mart. These are the same people that can't understand you built that bird house and are insisting they be told where you got it. No one in my area mistakes me for this. All they have to do is come into the yard and it becomes quickly clear, but then again I'm likely in several code violations and am glad I'm in the woods where the county would be hard pressed to find someone to bitch about my mess about the barn and less then first rate grass growing in the front yard. I got things to do; putting down fertilizer and planting flowers around my plastic manatee look-a-like mail box (mine has realistic looking fresh prop marks on it's back), isn't one of them.

[wdnboatbuilder]

Hey Par you going to Mount Dora THis year?

[Caldera Boats]

Nice post PAR! :)

[tom28571]

I have had a tough time understanding just what the original complaint was about. Boat plans run from tiny, almost illegible, free plans in magazines to the most complete step-by-step, fully illustrated kind. The complete wish list given by a couple of posters is great, but it does not fit all kinds of construction. A complete table of offsets is useless to the builder of a S&G canoe or skiff. In fact, more than a few "offsets" is likely to create an unfair hull in S&G. There is much to be said for the build-it-by-eye methods used by many. Most of the traditional boats built in my area were built this way, without a single offset measurement. Many still are, even large boats.

What looks like the optimum set of plans to one builder (or dreamer) will not be what others want to see. Some like the older blueprint style with everything profusely dimensioned on a few large sheets of paper. Many current plans are produced on 11 x 17 sheets with other kinds of additions. Some add text instructions with detail sketches of individual components. Some provide a CD with many photos of the construction and finished boat. Some may even add videos on a CD. Some provide other information that the novice might like or that the experienced builder will find useful. Some designers will not release a plan until a prototype is built and the plans corrected or modified accordingly. Some whip out plans on a computer one day and slap them on a website for sale the next day. Some try to give realistic cost and building time estimates and some are totally unrealistic, especially on building time.

In addition to what comes in the mail, a good designer will be receptive to questions from the builder to help them stay out of, or get out of, a jam. Some are available on and respond to email, some don't. Some are available on and respond to the phone, some don't. Some will only respond to snail mail and some don't communicate at all.

A careful plans buyer will know which of these they are dealing with before buying and act accordingly. It may be that most who wind up with a pig in a poke were looking for a cheap pig in the first place. Price is an indicator of quality but not the only one, or even the best one.

[Wynand N]

I disagree on a couple things. Or maybe I should say I have a different opinion.

Offsets table - That's a matter of preference. If the table is what truly sells plans, the designer will discover that soon enough.

I beg to differ. A set of plans without table of offsets is like a woman without tits.
That said, any decent builder will loft a set of plans, no matter if it was hand drawn or developed by some fancy software.........

[safewalrus]

Yeah good post PAR - you just about hit it right to my view!:cool:
Guillermo - see what your sayin' but despite our bitching and pontificating most of us like the forum the way it is! :) As PAR said most of us have done something (unlike some 85 - 90% of the so called civilised world:?: ) so all we're doing most of the time is chatting over a beer with like minded friends, as you would down the local cantena/bar or where ever you hang out! :D Therefore in the manner of most guys we get a little over the top sometime: but **** we're back the next day for another go, and normally so is the other guy - no offense meant nor taken! :D Now it works like this, if that's the way you are,;) welcome to the gang (a hundred thousand welcomes) if not go and find somebody who operates in your style and enjoy! :p just don't try to change us - hell I like taking the piss,:D and this lot like getting one over on me (probably more so!:D :D ) and quite often do! **** I'm in a serious mood tonight, but you see what I mean - your go!:(

[yago]

I don't really understand the entire issue.

Most designers offer study plans so you can see the quality and details of the plans, and most designers tell you what will be in the plan pack you order.

Antually, most of the study plans I have ever got (quite a few) were already so complete and detailed that anybody with a just a little bit of understanding of the process could actually have gone and build the boat, and they gave a very clear indication of what to expect, a list of plans missing etc.

If you think it's good, order, if not, don't. You get what you order and pay for, no? Why complain?

[safewalrus]

They are serious - you just don't have to be a miserable devil in the telling do you? or do you?

[gonzo]

Actually, Caldera boats shows ignorance of boatbuilding history and techniques. For milennia boats have been built on the eye. Later, half models came to be. Drafted plans are a very modern invention that is by no means necessary.

[PAR]

Gonzo has hit on a point I made in another thread some weeks ago. The latest trends in plans sets generally don't include offsets on simple small pleasure craft. As Gonzo pointed out designs were developed by eye for thousands of years, only in recent history have methods changed the way things are presented.

Then the point of a really unfair boats being built if more then minimal offsets are offered in the stitch and glue forms so popular today. Tom is perfectly correct that it would be near imposable to spring a scarfed topside panel to it's offset dimensions. These designs require some latitude in the shape of the hull, some having a little more or less in various curves and shapes around the boat.

A few years ago I designed and built two of five skiffs for a local lake rental outfit. The two I built weighed within 10 pounds of each other and stacked sheer to sheer, are pretty close to being the same, though differences were visible. The other three, built locally, were slightly heavier and each of them had slight differences. I noticed these differences, I drew and built the first two, but few else would see these differences. They perform the same, all having the same make and HP outboards, though interestingly enough, my constructed boats have a flatter wake, by a very small amount and the bow wave piles up in a spot slightly forward of the other three. Likely trim, but I really don't care, they're safe, solid and doing what they were intended to do.

I mentioned (in the other thread) boats in south America that are built with one station mold (65 footers) planks nailed to the stem and stern, sprung around according to the master builder's whim of the month. To me this is truly art, craftsmanship and knowledge past through many years of building.

I offer several 18" x 24" sheets to the needs of the builder, not the client. Though the client does contract the vessel, the builder is the one who must make sense of it all. I talk with the builder and if I don't know them, I find out what they need in terms of detail and pull outs. With the handful of 18x24's I supply a detailed set, of what I think needs to be accurately described, details for the builder. This may be little more then a scantling list (if I'm well familiar with the builder) or a more finely honed booklet, possibly with extra drawings. This doesn't mean offsets in the traditional fashion necessarily, but most of my work has some sort of system. My tape and goo designs don't have the usual offset table, but rather a general dimensions drawing with instructions on how to achieve the dimensions.

As Tom noted, the better designers are available, answer questions and can trouble shoot when necessary. Plans sets form an old magazine or a dead designer don't offer this and can be the biggest difference between a successful outcome and a hulk that rests uncomfortably in the backyard until the elements force it's removal to the dump.

As you can see Guillermo, though we may venture off track for a spell, we often times manage to find a way back.

Wdnboatbuilder, I'll be at Mt Dora's show like most years, unless something real important comes up. As it stands now, I'm planning on attending, likely with a couple of projects in tow. Touch base with me at the end of February and I'll let you know which ones they'll be (I sure don't know now) We can stop by my buddies cigar shop, suck down a few beers and have a good smoke. Gonzo, will you make the Mt Dora show, or will you be back in the great white north by then?

[wdnboatbuilder]

Alright how long you been going to the show? I 'm trying to get a boat ready for my dad for the show.
I agree we do tend to go from the heart of the subject to way of track but I thought that is what conversation is about.

[Guillermo]

They are serious - you just don't have to be a miserable devil in the telling do you? or do you?

safewalrus:
It's not at all my intention to discuss personalized matters, just would like to see a little bit of more respect around here.
If you or others want to deeply discuss about personal behaviours among this boating community, then I'd rather like to open a new thread at the Open Discussion Forum, not here. I propose to do it under the title: Why there are no women (seemingly) in these Boatdesign Forums?
What do you think?

PAR: I did not mention anybody in particular in my post, sorry if you have felt offended.

[BulBob]

I agree that plans are usually very poor quality. 3D modeling is really the only way to go today. If anyone wants help with visualizing I am pretty darn good at 3D. 3D Models can be used to produce small prototypes using stereolithography. The cost for the prototypes is based on material required so the smaller scale the cheaper and making them hollow really reduces the cost. This worked great for making prototypes for my patented fishing floats and I do not see why it would not work for any design testing.

[gonzo]

BulBob: you'll find thousands of us disagreeing. What advantages do you see to 3D modeling that make it an absolute better in all respects? Experienced people, specially boatbuilders, visualize things before putting them to paper or building them. It is a fallacy to think that pretty drawings make up for knowledge. 3D models can't tell you how to build every detail and in which order. Also, what makes you say that plans are of poor quality? Please give us some examples of good designers that don't provide good plans.

[BulBob]

I'm just talking about the conceptual stage. I know what is need in the end are real plans using real materials. For the time and money you can not argue that new technologies are not better for simply proving a design theory. 3D and SLA is a better way.

[safewalrus]

To add to PAR and Gonzo's statement about building by eye - to damn true, you are absolutely right of course! Also the majority of materials, no matter what it is will not always go where the drawing says it should! Watching the guy who built my last boat hanging a sheet of steel was a joy to behold, it flowed! OK so it wasn't EXACTLY like the plan but it all fitted together better (so did my first wife and the boatbuilder but that's a different story! nice guy really - **** if I'd have known I wouldn't have paid him so much!):D

Guillermo; there's one of that title there already, I've said my bit but will add more if you wish!

And a Happy and Prosperous New Year to you all

[Caldera Boats]

I would have to agree with BulBob, 3d modeling is the best. It is the future of boat building. Like it or not. Most of the major US boat manufacturers have started to use 3d solid modeling for everything. I have seen everything from complete aircraft to luxory motor homes designed completely with 3d modeling. I use solid modeling exclusivley for all my design work.

[War Whoop]

Years back I started going directly from my CAD drawings to FULL size Lofting which agrees with the REAL world a little more, Hell drinking coffee I can get all the stations and long lines to a 40 foot Powerboat boat up before noon. Body sections and buttocks fairing by the end of the day!

Picked up and on the scrive table the next morning…. Point is this old system based in Napoleonic times it is still a Extremely powerful tool in this modern day.

I watch these geniuses getting Mylar frame patterns and such then scratch their heads Lost if the owner wants a small change in dimension I prefer to have it all on my wall (I loft vertically) Bulkheads, stringers, floors, transom.Locked in and mine!

Point being the machine is a great tool but!!! It is also a good way to spend unnecessary money.

Tooling I prefer CNC Plugs from In house CAD..

[Chris Ostlind]

"I watch these geniuses getting Mylar frame patterns and such then scratch their heads Lost if the owner wants a small change in dimension I prefer to have it all on my wall (I loft vertically) Bulkheads, stringers, floors, transom.Locked in and mine!


Geez, and here I had the on-going use impression that repeated, minor changes in a general plan were decidedly easier with CAD based design tools. Boy, am I ever going to have to revisit the reality of drawing boats with that bit of news.

You guys have also not addressed the potential for manipulating small areas of the design and then applying hydrostatic, as well as FEA, VPP, etc. processes to see what particular iteration has the best performance by comparison.

The real power of CAD is in the ability to make virtually instant changes to an overall plan without having to laboriously redraw the lofted product. If the software is parametric, it changes all the elements that are in contact with the changed section as well.

I don't understand why you are seeing "these geniuses" having troubles as you indicate. Perhaps you could elaborate? The big shops invest in CAD because it saves time, increases profitability and it's a standard in the industry.

Chris

[War Whoop]

"I watch these geniuses getting Mylar frame patterns and such then scratch their heads Lost if the owner wants a small change in dimension I prefer to have it all on my wall (I loft vertically) Bulkheads, stringers, floors, transom.Locked in and mine!


Geez, and here I had the on-going use impression that repeated, minor changes in a general plan were decidedly easier with CAD based design tools. Boy, am I ever going to have to revisit the reality of drawing boats with that bit of news.

You guys have also not addressed the potential for manipulating small areas of the design and then applying hydrostatic, as well as FEA, VPP, etc. processes to see what particular iteration has the best performance by comparison.

The real power of CAD is in the ability to make virtually instant changes to an overall plan without having to laboriously redraw the lofted product. If the software is parametric, it changes all the elements that are in contact with the changed section as well.

I don't understand why you are seeing "these geniuses" having troubles as you indicate. Perhaps you could elaborate? The big shops invest in CAD because it saves time, increases profitability and it's a standard in the industry.

Chris

Look what is needed here is some remedial reading comprehension! WHERE did I say anything about not using CAD ACE ??

[War Whoop]

Chris now tell me about a electrinic spline and a fairing Batten ??

[War Whoop]

Chris now tell me how YOU would do this? a boat 13 meter Cat is strip planked over plywood frames ready for glass and the boss/owner wants the tunnel extended to the sponson tips and the shear also raised!! Oh BTW we are 9000 Miles from home!!

Would it NOT be easer if the thing was full size on a loft and these simple changes could be made with a colored pencil!!

You need some experience then come back!

[gonzo]

They complement each other. Half models are 3D models. A computer is not the only way of making them. Lofting is also a 3D model, you just need to learn to read it. CAD is too restrictive for me. I resent having a programmer with no knowledge of boats giving me a few options in curves. My battens do what I want them to. However, when it comes to displacement calculations, CG, etc, I would not claim a planimeter and table of logarithms are better.

[tom28571]

They complement each other. Half models are 3D models. A computer is not the only way of making them. Lofting is also a 3D model, you just need to learn to read it. CAD is too restrictive for me. I resent having a programmer with no knowledge of boats giving me a few options in curves. My battens do what I want them to. However, when it comes to displacement calculations, CG, etc, I would not claim a planimeter and table of logarithms are better.

Right on, Gonzo. The "best" way to do anything has to be modified by the individual's resources, abilities and the objectives of the task. I fully acknowlege the great advantages of the computer and CAD in many aspects of boat design. At the same time, I have to realize my severe limitations in this CAD area.

Fortunately I am blessed with an aptitude for visualizing the 3D aspect of things drawn in 2D. When I design a boat or a house, I see the final shape of the thing from all angles before it gets laid out in 2D on paper. This is exactly opposite of the way CAD works.

That said, I sometimes take a design to a friend with a boat design program on his computer to do what it does best.

[mattotoole]

Back in the 50's when hand held power tools (I have quite a few of these old monsters) really took off, every man's garage was a den of creation, a vessel that would give birth to something new each month, at least if you bought into the advertising hype and read too many copies of Popular Mechanics. Most guy had a garage full of lawn mowers, garden tools, kids bikes and other toys, a couple of saw horses

I worry that this creative part of our culture is being lost, as people are less able to afford single family houses with garages and home workshops. Plus few people have the time, because of working long hours and long commutes. So when the current DIY generation moves on, I wonder if there will be another to replace them.

I don't see giant unfinished hulls in people's backyards anymore, but I do see more homebuilt canoes, kayaks, etc. than ever. Maybe some of the folks building these will progress to larger craft.

--

[War Whoop]

You are right we lost a lot of what made this country unique there are no home workshops anymore to speak of, I had my fathers Boy Mechanic book when I was a small boy and he would work with me building projects from it. The best thing you can do for a kid but the computers are a part of life now days. Thank God I learned the Old -way from the old guys.

Personally I do not know how they do it I have spent hours answering what I consider stupid questions to these new guys. Why?

The old way before you did anything in the office you went thru the shop.

Some of he CNC operators now days were never machinists! So sometimes the work goes into the scrap pile! I can only guess when that Number exceeds the Pay they get fired union permitting! I have also seen a Major machine company that can’t find a real engine Lathe man that also says something..

[safewalrus]

Hey Gonzo don't let the modern "maureen architect" know about half models, they think they invented 3D (they can tell you the square root of an onion, they just can't get the lid off the jar!)! They ain't figured yet that those quaint old models of boats on the workshop wall actually have a use! Bless 'em! Actually CAD, like all things, when used properly and together with other things is a damn fine piece of kit! But unfortunately your electronic whizz kid use's it to the exclusion of everything else (mainly because they learned their trade by mail order overnight and can't use anything else!) Trouble is (apart from the developing nations, who use something called experience! because that's all they have!) it doesn't matter which country your in they're all the same!

[Chris Ostlind]

War Whoop... what's up with the business of getting up on your back legs?

You made your point. I made mine.

As far as I can tell, you managed to take it to a whole new level of foolishness with the personal attacks and repetitive postings that only serve to show your inability to manage your emotions over what should be a semi-detached discussion on the issues.

Nice work, there. I'm guessing you've had a bad holiday season and this is a safe place to vent your frustration. You can say that. All will be forgiven.

The cheetahcat.com site you include with your sign-off name is interesting. I must have counted some dozen or more indications in the posted copy that the firm uses the latest high-tech solutions for its boat production and yet you have a serious aversion to the very process to which you make your claims. I'll have to assume its only a marketing thing... that high-tech claim on the site.

Oh... and one more thing. Why don't you have the courage to post your real name instead of spouting off from behind the silly title of War Whoop? You want some respect for what you post? Then sack-up and step-out from behind the smoke screen. You'll be safe with us.

Chris

[tom28571]

Sometimes it gets to be a contest to see who can piss from the highest place.

[PAR]

As has been pointed out by several, there are a few ways to skin a cat (sorry multi hull fans) and the conceptual stage has required a few things historically. One is a way for the designer to understand the relationship, of the sometimes quite convoluted shapes and more importantly, how to sell this shape to the folks plopping down the money. Several centuries ago this wasn't as big an issue, as the designer was usually employed by the builder, or at least trusted by the same and the client went to have a vessel, of such dimension, by such dimension built by the boat builder. The various yards and builders all had valued reputations, which reflected the design and construction efforts carried out. The owner just had to have the same trust in the builder as the builder had in the designer.

When designers started breaking out of the system, hanging their own shingles so to speak, the reputation of their abilities was mostly what carried them. The owner then contracted with the designer for a boat, possibly being involved with the builder, maybe not, surly making recommendations through. The designer was faced with showing something tangible to the prospective owner. He was also in need of making improvements on previous models. Cataloging the lines and construction details became necessary, for research and in sales efforts with possible clients.

Lines drawings can be difficult to comprehend, particularly to a business man that is interested in a faster ship 'round the horn or 'cross the pond, to beat the competitor to market. It is also difficult for some people, designers included, to have total faith in the 2 dimension renderings he's placed on paper. Believe it or not, some don't visualize as well as I suspect most of us do. Model carving solved this for many designers, though not all practiced the art. Many jobbed out the carving effort, but religiously checked it for accuracy. Pond and tank testing increased it's usefulness to the designer, but as a sales tool it really glowed.

There have been several Americas Cup contenders that have been built, purely on the presentation of the finely crafted model that was placed in the center of the conference table. I would imagine many yachts speculation have amounted to little more then a good or bad looking model.

With the advent of computers, modeling has taken a huge step. No longer does one have to squint an eye to envision himself at the helm of the proposed dream yacht, he's been discussing with the designer, he literally can see the ship in several million colors, angles and level of detail. The designer is also able to work out issues that before may have required a cockpit mockup, for example, to insure winch placement was within reach of the person grinding without fouling something. Engine oil drain plugs can be designed so a human hand, holding a wrench can remove it, long before a yard foreman has to mention lifting the engine mount a few inches for the needed clearance.

3D modeling has taken many forms and it's likely not done yet. I think that all the modeling forms are necessary at some times and for some people. Personally, I'm more comfortable with lofting out an issue, building a template and literally sitting in the problem. I am lucky that I think in 3D and naturally draw in 3D. I would think most craftsmen have this ability, to see what's "in the stone" before it's cut. Whatever the dimensional crutch we use to help visualization, it's an evolving development and will be superseded by the next latest and greatest addition to our assorted tool bins.

[OldYachtie]

Um, how come nobody has mentioned that this boat looks like whoever designed it doesn't know anything about yacht design, and that the boat will almost certainly suck? Lucky fellow, you really don't want to build this boat, anyway! Next time, find out more about the designer before parting with your cash! He should know the difference between the p.c. and p.r.

[safewalrus]

So decrepit yottie what are you burbling about? If you wish to resurect old forums that others have finished with long ago, at least read them and make your comments relative! Looks like we got us another smarty who wants to make a name for himself! Yank too! sorry people despite my vow to leave you people alone (especially now that BillyDoc made me an honoury "Yank") this one looks ripe for some picking! (he he! don't you just love it):D :D

[War Whoop]

Christ just loft the thing and be done with it.

[ancient kayaker]

Sorry about the delay in posting but I just joined up. Despite your fearless and wrathful style I was interested in your (and other's) comments. There are indeed some scatalogical plans out there. I am watching a good friend slowly going mad trying to decipher a poorly drawn and printed set of "plans", and the finished item is unlikely to reflect the designer's intent too accurately.

Your list of things to include in a set of plans is a good one and clearly based on experience, and your notes on line drawings reads like an extract from a drafting manual. For plans intended for beginners I would add a glossary of nautical terms to the list you provide.

However, the conventions for boat and ship plans are different from industrial design, and each designer has a unique style. While standardisation would be nice boatbuilding has been around for a long time. Despite a lifetime of designing start-of-art stuff in my own highly technical (non-nautical) field it took me some time to get used to interpreting plans for static fluid-supported lightweight curvilinear structures; er ... boats.

You haven't shown the plans to another member for an opinion so I don't know if your complaints are justified or if your expectations were excessive. We are not talking about industrial manufacturing with outsourced parts and assembly-line construction. Assuming the plans are at least legible (my friend's plans weren't), what you get in a plan set will be determined by the boat's construction. For example in a stitch and glue boat the paramount need would be for accurate tables or good quality well-dimensioned drawings for the parts which define the shape and construction of the boat with detailed instruction to put them together, and a bill of materials is a must. Since wood is a variable material and few amateurs possess the machinery to make parts fit first time, a lot of smaller parts will be cut to fit. Personally, I find that part of the challenge.

Many designers prefer to limit build options and avoid sail plans for good reason, liability for safety problems being one. Each designer has an individual philosophy. I have not published any plans yet, but I have been working on a non-stitch and glue approach that generates the hull shape simply without the need for elaborate forms, drawings or lofting. I have got the construction method sorted out but I have a lot to learn about boat design and will not publish until I can design a boat that performs as intended. When (and if) I do I will make it clear to potential builders just what I will provide and how I expect them to proceed. Then anyone who gets upset that my plans omit stuff they consider essential will only have themselves to blame.

You got some bad press and accusations of being cheap, but I wouldn't call $125 for a set of plans cheap. Depends on the boat of course; if you are building a trans-atlantic racer as a first boat ... Did/could/would you ask for help on plan interpretation? Many designers are happy to provide advice and budget some time in their price; and have websites with FAQs. What did the seller claim when you bought the plans? If the approach is of the simple-to-build, non-lofting persuasion then you can hardly expect detailed lines and a complex drawing set.

Finally, my unfortunate friend might have been wiser to send his plans back before he started building. Did you have that option?

[gonzo]

$125.00 for a set of plans with full size patterns would indeed be cheap. A designer that won't include sail plans because of "liability issues" is a fraud. That is part of the job. Also, expecting unlimited customer service and advice included in the $125.00 is naive. No one could stay in business at those prices. The list of materials is optional. A builder should be able to make one. If a person has no experience or knowledge of boatbuilding, the designer has no reponsibility to educate him. A designer only designs the boat, and for a price, consults and supervises.

[messabout]

Caldera Boats' delivery is a bit harsh. Perhaps he is referring to the legion of somewhat uninformed people who fancy themselves as boat designers. There are a lot of those out there as the more knowledgeable readers of these forums are well aware. I have some resentment about the imposters unaware that they are imposters. On the other hand one must not be too severe with those who dont know what they dont know.

The prudent thing to do is buy plans from established designers who have a satisfactory, or better, reputation. Some of the best of small boat designers try to evaluate the probable capabilities of the eventual builder. If they think the market is to back yard builders then they'll deliberately avoid too much detail. Give an inexperienced builder too much information and he'll become confused and discouraged. He wont build the boat and he'll damn the designer.

I too want a table of offsets but some pretty decent boats are built without offsets. There are a gob of stitch and glue types that describe sheet layout only. Some pretty good boats are made by both professional and amateur builders while using that method. Actually old time builders did it by eye, without benefit of plans of any kind. Some of them built damned good boats that way. Caldera may never have seen the old time magazines like "How to Build 20 Boats", Rudder magazine, Popular Mechanix magazine, etc. Those mags had plans that were sometimes pretty sparse but there were a tremendous number of boats built from them. Almost all those boats would actually float.

Caveat Emptor

[micro5]

I agree that plans are usually very poor quality. 3D modeling is really the only way to go today. If anyone wants help with visualizing I am pretty darn good at 3D. 3D Models can be used to produce small prototypes using stereolithography. The cost for the prototypes is based on material required so the smaller scale the cheaper and making them hollow really reduces the cost. This worked great for making prototypes for my patented fishing floats and I do not see why it would not work for any design testing.

I agree with what was being said. I want to start using stereo lithography for a couple of projects I am trying to start up. Is there a way to get the prototypes for a cheaper price? Does it always depend on the material required?

[frank smith]

Plan ? we dont need no stinking plan.

[wardd]

Plan ? we dont need no stinking plan.

not if you're building an affordable ocean cruiser

[tom28571]

Small boat designers are financially so well rewarded that they should be able to get out fully documented plans in very small numbers with all the bells and whistles as well as offer follow up service to all buyers.:D Of course, the plans should also be very cheap or free:D:D

Different designs and different kinds of construction call for different kinds and amounts of information. In some kinds, like an S&G hard chine boat, providing a full table of offsets, including diagonals and buttock lines is not only superfluous but is certain to cause a lot of confusion and call backs when it is neither desirable nor necessary. Especially true for powerboats.

In other cases all that information is needed and should be provided. The amount of information should also be tailored to the intended builder, their skills, likely building conditions and materials and supplies they may have access to. What is proper for a commercial builder turning out multiple units is entirely different from that best suited to a home builder of average skills and knowledge.

The OP apparently has knowledge and skills such that he should be able to judge ahead of time which designers and plans are worth the asking price. If he received piss-poor plans, he bears at least part of the blame.

[BOATMIK]

Howdy,

After some years of experience doing plans for builders - its not about particular technology - this misses the point by a long way.

For some targeted markets it is a about a quality based approach that assumes that the builder might know very little about boatbuilding.

For other markets there might be with very experienced builders, but if the designer is really aware of the processes they can make the builder's life much more pleasant (and profitable - this type of builder tends to link profitable and pleasant together!).

CAD methods (and specific methods above) have an advantage in that the dimensions can be very accurate - that is a definite advantage, but that's the limit of where the technology has an advantage. It doesn't really have much influence on quality.

As a designer you have to have a really clear idea of how to work out a procedure for the whole build to go smoothly - the real practical limitations of building methods.

If the designer hasn't done a lot of building, or at least not been exposed to building on a day to day basis (eg in the same workshop and the instant feedback that provides) there is little chance the plans will be much good at all.

This type of experience leads to a depth of quality in the plan, where as much as possible is resolved for the builder beforehand as possible.

If you have that approach and also have the experience the builder will give you a completely different sort of feedback that will help improve the plans further.

A second area is they way that mistakes are logged and rectified in the drawings or model. It is an obvious part of QC, but it gets missed out on very frequently. Things drawn in out of scale (with traditional methods), Pieces that don't quite fit or are hard to assemble with CAD.

The discipline of going back and fixing the drawings, even in a one-off shows that you are serious about improving plans at every stage. The act of drawing in the correction and the audit trail of drawing versions is critical for lifting the design standard.

If you show the builder you are aware of these types of problems they will help you improve your game as a designer - and they will also feel that they have gotten the value they expected from the plan.

A funny thing happens too - that if you acknowledge the mistake and show you are serious by amending drawings, customers (being mostly good guys) will support you.

One of the biggest problems (for all designers) is estimating time unless you have a lot of experience with a particular type of project. Clients don't take happily to waiting around for drawings or a file to turn up.

These types of aspects are far more critical to a boat plan being perceived as "good".

Knud Reimers once said that you need two things to be a boat designer.

"A sharp pencil and a clean white shirt".

This is still exactly right - it is about the tools in your head and how you relate to the client. Not that you need pencils or white shirts these days.

To think a particular technology will make plans "better" misses the point because it ignores that other factors are infinitely more important in the perception of "plan quality".

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[CatBuilder]

I don't want to sound too lovey dovey with my designer, but Kurt Hughes got all this stuff right.

The only thing I didn't get from him was the correct version of a materials list done in Excel by someone. That's it.

He fixed that mistake within about 3 hours of my sending an email.

Other than that, his plans included everything you need.

[Alik]

I believe that one can't buy plans for 200$ and build boat other than tender.

I have seen 'design set' done by one famous designer, for 26' sailboat that included 3-4 sheets of drawings: general arrangement, sail plan and lines plan from 21' that one has to scale himself by multiplying all numbers in table of offsets by 1.152.

If one likes to pay that amount he can’t complain about quality of plans. It can be done if builder is experienced; it can not be built by someone without experience.

Probably this is reason why we almost never sell designs to amateur builders – we do not want headache to reply basic questions, and then listen complains that something is wrong.

[BOATMIK]

To cater for amateur builders is a different mindset, thats all.

The quality issues have the same solutions. Correct stuff as errors and misinterpretations appear until (almost) everything is resolved.

Before I started designing I worked at a business that cut out kits and sold plans to amateur builders.

This was back in the late '80s.

We had quite a big range of plans from different designers and we differentiated ourselves from timberyards and resin suppliers by having most things available as well as building a reputation for support for the home boat builder.

The thing we found is that
1/ with some plans we ended up getting asked a million question
2/ other plans we could sell and would get one or two well directed questions if any at all.

It was a stark contrast.

Guess whose plans we preferred to sell!

The plans we found really good were strip plank plans from the "Canoecraft" book, Bolger stuff, Woodenboat stuff and the remarkable plans of Iain Oughtred.

All these made a successful specialty of supplying amateur builders with plans that reduced their questions to a reasonable number.

Best wishes
Michael Storer

[PAR]

I'm not sure why this long dead thread has been revived and good to see you post again Mik, but there are people that design boats that have never built or been involved with a build and there are those that design boats that have built and are usually actively involved, often as project coordinators. All engineers and architects suffer from this problem, what they think they know and what they really know.

The good ones aren't regurgitating from their lesson plans, but from practical experience and their studies.

Lastly, you shouldn't judge a set of plans without knowing who the plans were intended for. A set of plans for a familiar and experienced builder will be well short of many aspects, because both parties know what to expect from each other. This many result in 3 or 4 drawings and limited explanation, mostly because the details have been previously hashed out and need no further description. All designers that work with professionals have plans like this. Last week I shipped two sets of the same design. One went to a fairly skill back yard builder in Ohio and included 23 separate sheets of paper, drawings, instructions, etc., while the other had 10 sheets, because it was being sent to a guy (shop) I've known for years, who's built my stuff before and knows what to expect. He doesn't need the instructions for making fillets or the building and material handling tips I supplied with the other plan set, etc., etc., etc.

This is often the case with "stock plans" from dead designers. You order them and you get a tube with 4 A-1 sheets of drawings, no instructions, just a BOM, some scantlings and maybe a quick design description. The original set was done by a profession shop and the novice builder feels less then confidant about proceeding.

In some ways I agree with Alik, but only if the plans weren't produced with the back yard builder in mind. Many of my plans are fairly cheap and still include the few dozen sheets of drawings, instructions, tips and tricks, etc. Personally, I think a potential builder should pay to be nurse maided through the process, if this is what they want, but unfortunately you don't move too many plans sets this way. Maybe a two way approach, offering plans as professional grade or novice, with the pro plans being half price!

[daiquiri]

these abmoinations you call boatplans? $125! Kiss my ASS!!!!!!
Don't know what plans did you buy and where, but I can't help wondering what did you expect to see for $125?

Back where I come from they use to say - so much money, so much music.

[BertKu]

$125.00 for a set of plans with full size patterns would indeed be cheap. A designer that won't include sail plans because of "liability issues" is a fraud. That is part of the job. Also, expecting unlimited customer service and advice included in the $125.00 is naive. No one could stay in business at those prices. The list of materials is optional. A builder should be able to make one. If a person has no experience or knowledge of boatbuilding, the designer has no reponsibility to educate him. A designer only designs the boat, and for a price, consults and supervises.
Hi Gonzo, I fully agree with you. I must be the most inexperienced amateur boat builder on this net ( I am getting it right) and here is my input. The inexpensive plans of USA $ 110 I bought gives me some superb 3 dimension drawings of how it should look like. ( I understood the designer is dead) Some people made the comment that they are old fashioned and outdated. But I trust those plans as I have seen many boats having made from those plans. However in my case I like to see a pricelist up front from all designers. Something similar like:
Example
Stability calculations for the Hartley 28 (or name of your boat) : $ 50.00
Stability calculations for the Fisherman 18 : $ 40.00
Reply to an e-mail $ 25.00
Any calculation each $ 40.00
Step by Step workflow sheet $ 100.00
Etc. Etc.

One could then up front get the confidence that if I selected a designer, that I actual will make and finish the boat and not being left in the cold in midair or being milked out financially.
Maybe now you understand why I selected a plan recommended by another boat builder.

I thoroughly enjoy this thread and even consider If I cannot get my calculations right to approach one of you. Price is not always no1, provided one has the confidence in the designer.
Bert

[Alik]

Good stock plans would normally cost few percent for construction cost of boat. We sell stock plans (not to amateur boabuilders without experience) with some conditions, read below:

IMPORTANT CONDITIONS OF PURCHASE – PLEASE READ CAREFULLY

In purchasing this design set the Customer agrees to accept the terms and conditions of purchase as set out below, and to bind any builder contracted to build the boat to the same set of conditions.

Definitions:
Designer – the party developing and selling design set;
Customer – the party purchasing the design set;
Builder – the party in charge of building the boat; this may be the Customer.
Design set – scope of design materials provided by designer for construction and certification of boat


1. TECHNICAL ISSUES

1.1 Recommended power and propulsion

The Customer and Builder agree to follow designer’s recommendations on engines power. The Customer and Builder are advised that horsepower which exceeds recommended limits may cause safety problems during operation of the boat, or performance of the boat different from the Designer’s estimates.

1.2 Weights and their distribution

The Customer and Builder agree to adhere to the weight schedule of boat, as presented in the ‘Table of Weights’ provided by the Designer. The Customer and Builder should understand that significant changes in weights and their distribution can cause reduction of speed, unexpected loads on structure, reduced stability, reduced freeboard and thus a reduction of general safety and or performance of the boat. The Customer and Builder are strongly advised to consult the Designer if anticipated weight change may exceed 10% of displacement, or if weight changes may cause the longitudinal or vertical positions of CG to change by more than 2% of the length or depth of hull respectively.

The Customer and Builder are informed that the most common reasons of overweight are: poor control of resin content during lamination, excessive use of filler on the structure; use of heavy interior materials and equipment; installation of extra equipment and tanks.

1.3 Laminate specifications

The Designer provides a lamination schedule together with structural drawings. The Builder is solely responsible for following this schedule in terms of quality of laminate, working conditions, resin/fiber content and weights of moldings. Acceptable differences in weights of moldings are from –5% to +10%. An overweight margin is already included in the weights estimate.

If materials specified in lamination schedule are unavailable, the Builder is strongly recommended to consult the Designer for proper alternatives.

1.4 Aesthetical changes

Our experience shows that in most cases significant aesthetical changes introduced by a Customer/Builder will detrimentally change the appearance of the boat. The Customer and Builder are advised to consult the designer on such changes. The Designer has the right to withdraw his name as designer of the boat and to refuse further advice and support if such changes are made without the Designer’s approval.

2. INTERACTION BETWEEN DESIGNER AND BUILDER

2.1 Builder

The Customer agrees to use a qualified boat Builder (including Builder’s subcontractors) for construction of the boat.

It is should be understood by the Customer that the Designer does not have access to the Builder’s yard unless he is contracted for supervision. In any case the Designer is not in a position to control every stage of the construction. The Designer and Customer have to rely on the Builder’s management skills and experience. The Designer agrees to issue a notice in writing if he becomes aware of any significant variations between boat construction and design documentation.

2.2 Recommended builders

The Designer has successful record of previous work with different Builders and can provide his recommendations to Customer on request, but accepts no liability for the performance of any Builder so recommended.

2.3 Support during construction

The purchase of a design set gives the Customer the right to limited support during the construction for one year after the purchase of the design set. Normally we would not answer the questions such as ‘how to apply gelcoat?’, ‘what material we should use to seal the fuel tank cover?’ or ‘how to drain water from outboard engine recess?’. The Designer reserves the right to limit correspondence to a reasonable amount and will not provide technical training or advice. We assume that a qualified Builder has enough experience to make proper decisions on construction techniques, as well as on scuppers, hose clamps, application of materials, etc.

The Customer and builder are required to study the whole design set before asking questions. In most cases the answers to Your questions are on next pages.

The Customer and Builder are advised that the Designer is not immediately available to answer queries by phone or email.

It is strongly recommended that the Owner/Builder follow all verbal communications with written copies by e-mail, fax or letter as this is the best method of ensuring that the designer has a complete record pertaining to the boat. This may be critical to future advice.

On site supervision of construction by the Designer is available at extra charge and is a subject to an additional agreement.

2.4 Use of ‘sistership’ photos

We always find it impolite when a Builder is using photos of boats not built by him for his marketing. In particular, this refers to Builders whose website contains photos of sisterships built from same design but by other builders (in most cases such photos originate from Designer’s website). It happens with many stock designs but it is hardly acceptable practice without publishing additional comments. The Designer requires that if such photos are used by a Customer/Builder, it should clearly marked as ‘sistership’ preferably with reference to builder of the sistership boat. The reason for such policy is to avoid misunderstanding of Builder’s launching record, skills and capacity by potential buyers.


3 STANDARDS

3.1 Standards applied

During the development of the design, the Designer has followed the standards in force as at the date of design completion. The Customer and Builder acknowledge that the Designer does not guarantee certification of the boat, and that during the certification process there may be a need for minor corrections of design documents or modifications of the boat construction. This is due to different interpretations of standards by classification bodies. The Designer accepts no liability should such modifications be necessary.

The Builder is strongly recommended to refer to ISO Small Craft standards during the construction of boat, and the installation of systems and equipment. The Customer is notified that boat is not designed for commercial transportation of passengers or for any other commercial use.

3.2 Recommended information for builder’s plate

The Boat design is developed according to the ISO ‘Small Craft’ group of standards. Recommended category – C ‘sheltered’ or B ‘offshore’. Recommended information for builder’s plate: maximum passenger capacity – 12; maximum total load – 2000kg, maximum power – 2x250HP.

3.3 Category assessment

Any expenses or works related to procedures of category assessment by certification bodies are excluded from the design fee. The Designer can assist on certification issues for an extra charge that is subject to an additional agreement.


4 RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF DESIGNER

4.1 Responsibility of Designer

The DESIGNER has developed the design following the best design practices and engineering techniques available at the time.

In terms of boat safety and performance, the Designer guarantees only the correctness of his calculations including safety assessment, performance predictions, weight calculations, structural calculations, etc. within reasonable engineering accuracy.

In any case the Designer does not accept any responsibility for the safety of the boat’s navigation, transportation or operation of the boat.

The Designer does not guarantee that the boat will meet the speed predictions as speed is affected by numerous construction and equipment installation factors over which the designer has no direct control.

The Customer is advised that a decision to build a boat from this design set is at his risk solely and acknowledges that he is prepared to bear any reasonable costs of possible adjustments and modifications which may arise from the Designer’s omissions.

The Designer does not take any responsibility for any defects or differences in design particulars of the boat, caused by mismatch of the boat, constructed to design documentation, including but not limited to mismatch of hull dimensions and shape, mismatch of thickness and properties of materials (including content of components in composite structures), or differences of weight and its distribution.

The aspects of construction management, application of materials, installation of equipment using common methods and manufacturers recommendations, details, consumables etc. are not the Designer’s responsibility.

Any modification of the design is the sole prerogative of the Designer. Any modifications of the design carried out by unauthorized parties are not the Designer’s responsibility.

4.2 Errors and omissions

Whilst every effort has been made to make the design set clear and correct, we can not guarantee that the drawings are free from small errors or omissions. If such issues do arise we will be pleased to receive feedback from Builder on these issues, and introduce proper adjustments.

4.3 Photographic report of construction

Owner and Builder agree to provide photographic reports for the Designer during the construction, on his request. Our experience shows that such photos are good way to find construction mistakes if any at an early stages and minimize the amount of rework required.

4.4 Ownership of design

All design documentation is sole intellectual property of the Designer. The design set cannot be resold, transferred or exposed to third parties (excerpt certification bodies) in printed or electronic form without the written permission of the Designer.

The Design documentation may not be copied other than for purposes of workshop use or certification.

By purchasing the design set the Customer/Builder is authorized to build only one vessel from the design. Construction of further boats is subject of additional agreement between the Designer and the Owner/Builder.

4.5 Publicity and marketing

The Owner and the Builder agree that the name of the Designer shall appear in all articles, information, advertisements, and brochures prepared by the Owner/Builder about the boat , unless otherwise requested by the Designer. Drawings appearing in such documents are to originate from the Designer or are to be approved by the Designer in writing. The Designer maintains the right to use any test data, drawings, specifications, photographs etc. of the vessel for publicity, including advertising brochures, magazine articles, etc. The Owner's/Builder’s name, however, may not be used by the Designer in such publicity without the Owner/Builder’s express consent.

The Designer has the right to remove his name as the boat designer from the boat if the boat is not built following design documentation, is not built to an appropriate standard, or is significantly modified without Designer’s consent. In this eventuality, the Owner/ Builder have no further right to refer in any way to the Designer as the Designer of the boat.

[Alik]

In previous post, some known problems of working with small/amateur builders are reflected.

[michael pierzga]

2 or three hundred dollar plans are perfect for experienced small craft builders who need minimum guidance. I have a set of beautifully detailed " 400 dollar" plans on my desk now for a simple outboard powered 25 footer. I Don't see any questions that must be asked of her designer . Since the plans are a few years old perhaps a quick email to the design office for material, scantling suggestions might be in order...but she would be perfectly " modern " as designed.

Its important to remember that stock...portfolio... " designs" are so cheap to buy that the only way a designer could possibly "feed the family" and retire is by charging extra for each bit of construction advice, guidance needed. This advice is well worth purchasing if you are a serious customer.
I regularly see designers visit yachts during the construction phase, the floatation phase and sea trail phase......... completely free of cost. Be sure to contract one of these full service, well respected, design offices.

[wardd]

design your own boat plans only $125

included is 3 sheets of blank paper and for an additional charge of $200 a pencil

[raw]

I have a saying that if a client cannot afford the plans then they probably cannot afford the boat. Even expensive ones are % points of the entire project.


I had an amateur come to me a few years ago after buying a set of plans from one of the most well known amateur plan providers that were really quite unworkable and left much to the imagination.


I gave him a price to do a set of plans based on his brief which was many many times that of the other set he already had. After the initial heart attack, I agreed to break down the price into segements, with a number of optional non critical parts that he could his own way on.


At the end of the project, client had paid in full for everything, plus had sent an additional cheque with a christmas card because he felt he had short changed me.


Like most things in life, you get what you pay for...

[rwatson]

.....
Like most things in life, you get what you pay for...

Yes, you do IF you are veeeeery CAREFULL :-)

There are plenty out there who will charge you a LOT more than it should cost !

[BertKu]

Reading all the threads, everybody is probably right in his own right. But it still all boils down to the trust and confidence between the designer and boatbuilder. I am pleased to see that some of you don't deal with amateurs like me up front. Normally one cannot earn a living from the amateur boatbuilder. Last week I bought a lathe/milling machine and 316 stainless steel, because the engineering company tried to convince me that 304 is good enough. So you will have amateur boatbuilders who will change something in the design, the designer does not like and you have a break down in relationship. It depends in which market one is. In the mass market, producing designs for the masses, worked out in detail and lists. Or in the single personal design, which cost lots of time and you need a wealthy client to work it out together. In the experimental market, like I like to be in, one need up front pricelists the american way. Mass produced plans with "pay as you go" support pricelist and a CD or DVD. Sorry, but I will never be able to deal with a designer who has pages and pages legal clauses, even if they are totally correct in securing their own and clients position. Just a personal preferance, no real critisism. I have dealt in my life with too many legal disputes and only the legal world are the winners.
Bert

[rwatson]

Theres a lot in what you say Bert. If there's not a real meeting of minds between designer and client, its a potential upset.

Who was it that said "Never sign a contract with anyone where a handshake wouldn't have been good enough in the first place"

[cthippo]

Speaking of boat plans, I was toying around with the idea of putting together a database of as many commercially available plans as I can find. The plans would be sorted by the usual particulars (length, beam, type, etc etc) and would have links to the plan sites. Does anyone think this would be useful?

[BertKu]

Speaking of boat plans, I was toying around with the idea of putting together a database of as many commercially available plans as I can find. The plans would be sorted by the usual particulars (length, beam, type, etc etc) and would have links to the plan sites. Does anyone think this would be useful?

It certainly would be a great tool for many users. The work is astronomical. Who is going to pay you for keeping it up to date? The idee is great, but it can only work out if you are not in conflict with Jeff's website and that you can earn 5 dollars via Paypall per visit from somebody, for a limited timeperiode of, lets say 2 hours. Just to make sure you you will have an income.
Bert

[cthippo]

I don't know anything about Jeff's site, but I'm not into making money.

I can do it as a static site or .pdf, but unless someone knows SQL or PHP I don't know how to make it searchable.

[Alik]

There is such catalogue on woodenboat site already.

[BertKu]

I don't know anything about Jeff's site, but I'm not into making money.

I can do it as a static site or .pdf, but unless someone knows SQL or PHP I don't know how to make it searchable.

You are on Jeff's site. just go back to the home page and look under "boat plans" Maybe you can offer him your free of charge service to enlarge this section. http://www.boatdesign.net
Bert

[BertKu]

Theres a lot in what you say Bert. If there's not a real meeting of minds between designer and client, its a potential upset.

Who was it that said "Never sign a contract with anyone where a handshake wouldn't have been good enough in the first place"

You are so right, I have allways enjoyed dealing with Australians. (and New Zealanders)
Bert

[pdwiley]

Last week I bought a lathe/milling machine and 316 stainless steel, because the engineering company tried to convince me that 304 is good enough.
Bert

Off topic for this thread, but if the machine you bought is one of those 3 in 1 lathe/mill/drill combinations, good luck on your 316 stainless. The cheap 3 in 1 machines are fundamentally useless for any of their purported tasks.

Second point, depending on where the stainless was to go and what it was to do, perhaps 304 was good enough. Hell, I use 303 for some things because it machines so beautifully. Not below the WL exposed to salt water however.

On plans, I bought mine from a designer who'd actually built 5 hulls himself from his design, in his own yard. I've nearly finished welding my hull together and the only real problems have been mine due to lack of experience and regardless, it's come together fine. If I were to build another one of the same design it'd be a lot faster and if I decide to build a larger boat in steel I'll buy the plans from the same designer as I know the hull can be built to the plans provided.

PDW

[BertKu]

Off topic for this thread, but if the machine you bought is one of those 3 in 1 lathe/mill/drill combinations, good luck on your 316 stainless. The cheap 3 in 1 machines are fundamentally useless for any of their purported tasks.
I seem to be doing fine., but I have special bits and drills.

Second point, depending on where the stainless was to go and what it was to do, perhaps 304 was good enough. Hell, I use 303 for some things because it machines so beautifully. Not below the WL exposed to salt water however. I tried to illustrate that a builder could deviate from their designer and there will be a dispute and breakdown. Unfortunately I am dealing with salt water and like to stick to 316.


On plans, I bought mine from a designer who'd actually built 5 hulls himself from his design, in his own yard. I've nearly finished welding my hull together and the only real problems have been mine due to lack of experience and regardless, it's come together fine. If I were to build another one of the same design it'd be a lot faster and if I decide to build a larger boat in steel I'll buy the plans from the same designer as I know the hull can be built to the plans provided.

PDW

I am pleased you have a good relationship and trust with this designer. It illustrate my point that it boils down to the relationship between designer and amateur boat builder. Show us some photo's, love to see your progress.
Bert