cork for decks

[Vega]

I want to know more about cork decks (photos and sites please).

I know that some new production boats are using it, like for instance the new Etap 46 and it looks good (at least in the photos).

I can only find this on the internet:

http://www.lacarene.com/sitegb/covering.htm

It looks ugly:rolleyes:

can you add information ?

[gonzo]

I can't imagine it is very durable. Cork boards for posting notes and cork gaskets are quite fragile.

[Raggi_Thor]

It's a lack of cork for wine bottles now. I suppose it's hard to find good quality cork in large pieces.
I suppose you have looked at syntetics like tek-deck?

[Vega]

Thanks.
I have found what I was looking for.
Cork has some interesting properties. Is a very good Acoustical insulating and is a good thermal insulating.
Take a look.

http://www.stazo.nl/html/exterior.html
http://www.stazo.nl/html/pictures.html
http://www.marquipt.com/marineDeck.html

[Raggi_Thor]

I looked at stazo.nl, Marindeck 2000.
I see that it comes in 9mm thickness with a density of 0.5.
So it weighs 4.5kg/m2, approx the same as wood, but it has no strength, 100N/mm2 is approx 1% of wood.

Have you checked the prices?

[Sander Rave]

Cork is used in indoor flooring. To prevent wearing, a elastic coating is used.
That is something you don't want cause it's slippery when wet.

Indeed Thor. The cork is getting scarse now, so it's an interesting product ;-)
They use chippings for the panels. It has no strength, but it's extremely flexible.

I like a cheaper and more "ethical" alternative for teak. The prices for synthetic alternatives for teak are not material driven, but marketing driven. they charge you just little under the price of teak. An other isue is the UV-stabillity of the alternatives. Does anyone have long lasting experience with this synthetic products?

[Vega]

Indeed Thor. The cork is getting scarse now, so it's an interesting product ;-)
They use chippings for the panels. It has no strength, but it's extremely flexible.

I like a cheaper and more "ethical" alternative for teak.

Looks like you really don't know much about cork. As an architect (houses) I have been using cork floors for the last twenty years. I know also something about Sobreiros (the tree), because I have grown between them. Portugal is the world leader in cork and my family used to have a Herdade ( big farm) whose main product was cork.

You seem to think that cork is made of trees, or at least that you kill the tree to have cork. You are mistaken, cork is the natural protection of the tree ( the outside layer of the trunk), that in that tree is several cms wide. A skilled worker can take it from the tree every 9 years without harming the tree.

The trees (they are beautiful and big) last for several hundred years and in Portugal it is forbidden to kill sobreiros, even if they are yours and in your own land.

If there is a shortage it is simply because the demand is bigger, not because they are at risk.

Now, I love cork characteristics, but even if Portugal is the biggest cork floor manufacture, we don’t use it on the exterior.

Australians use it outside

http://www.spec-net.com.au/company/aclcork.htm

And there are at least two, probably more companies that have specific products for decks.

I have made a little search in the internet and I have seen that most people that are applying cork decks had previously owned boats with cork decks or are substituting old cork decks by new ones. That seems to be a good sign as well that Etap had chosen the product to use in their new top of the range boat, the Etap 46ds (an expensive boat).

For what I understand, a cork deck will cost half the price of a teak deck. It is much easier to apply and to substitute, if damaged, and it is a lot more comfortable than teak (elastic, softer, warm in winter, cold in the summer, 7 times better temperature insulating, and even better as an acoustic insulator and has only half the weight of teak.

Now, that is theory. Has anybody have real experience with cork decks?

I really would appreciate some real experience here.

[Sander Rave]

Hmm.. don't know if I should write this down, just my ego speaking...
I don't read killing trees? And if so, it is related to teak. Just saying it is getting scarse. I know the trees, I know the product. As demand rises, the price goes up. Nice feature for a more exclusive model of a brand like Etap
I'm interrested in this question so I'm with you, and put my own doubts and questions down next to yours.
Sorry for polluting your thread.

Regards,

[Vega]

You are welcome...and perhaps you can help. I have noticed that you are Dutch. For sure you know the Dutch training sailing ship EENDRACHT, but do you know that she has a cork deck?

http://www.eendracht.nl/nl
http://www.hellers.dk/da/Coelan-UK.pdf

Can you find more information about that? When has it been laid? Are they satisfied with it?

A training boat will give to her decks more use than a cruising boat, so I think it will be the perfect test to the resistance of the material.

[Deering]

Here's a cork-based marine deck product. Friends have it on their sailboat and love it. Has held up for 5 years and a circumnavigation.

http://www.vetus.nl/indexns.asp?lang=2&productid=36

[Sander Rave]

Dear Vega,

The Eendracht has moved from Scheveningen to the port of Rotterdam and will stay there at least until the end of december for maintenance. It's not too far from my studio so maybe I can pay them a visit during the week (if at least I can see some blue skies again from behind the piles of work ;-)
Otherwise I'll give them a call to find out.

The names connected to it may tell something about quality and endurance:
Design: W. de Vries Lentsch
Yard: B.V. Scheepswerf Damen/Gorinchem
Rigging: Royal Huisman Shipyards B.V./Rondal B.V.
Not the least names in the business

[Vega]

Sander, If you can do that I believe that we will learn a lot aboat the qualities and faults of that material.
It's a nice boat with a nice looking deck.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/vega1954/Eendracht2.jpghttp://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/vega1954/Eendracht1.jpg

[Vega]

In the Dusseldorf boat show I have seen the new Etap 46, the one that comes with a cork deck and I have talked with a French guy from Etap. I have asked him about the material resistance and longevity and he said that the boat comes with a deck 10 Year warranty. He has also said that that material (cork covered with some kind of hard resin) has a superior longevity, compared with teak...well over 10 years.

I have looked at the deck, and it looks alright. I tried to scratch it with a nail without success. It looks harder than teak, at least the one I have in my boat:)

Comercially it seams to be a success. The boat is brand new and they have already sold 20 with no complaints about the kind of material used in the decks, and that is an expensive boat (about 500 000 euros).

[longliner45]

cork is harvested only once every 9 years......at least in portugal

[Wellydeckhand]

Here's a cork-based marine deck product. Friends have it on their sailboat and love it. Has held up for 5 years and a circumnavigation.

http://www.vetus.nl/indexns.asp?lang=2&productid=36

Thanks for the thread.........:p :p :p

[harhhnt]

Looks like you really don't know much about cork. As an architect (houses) I have been using cork floors for the last twenty years. I know also something about Sobreiros (the tree), because I have grown between them. Portugal is the world leader in cork and my family used to have a Herdade ( big farm) whose main product was cork.

You seem to think that cork is made of trees, or at least that you kill the tree to have cork. You are mistaken, cork is the natural protection of the tree ( the outside layer of the trunk), that in that tree is several cms wide. A skilled worker can take it from the tree every 9 years without harming the tree.

The trees (they are beautiful and big) last for several hundred years and in Portugal it is forbidden to kill sobreiros, even if they are yours and in your own land.

If there is a shortage it is simply because the demand is bigger, not because they are at risk.

Now, I love cork characteristics, but even if Portugal is the biggest cork floor manufacture, we don’t use it on the exterior.

Australians use it outside

http://www.spec-net.com.au/company/aclcork.htm

And there are at least two, probably more companies that have specific products for decks.

I have made a little search in the internet and I have seen that most people that are applying cork decks had previously owned boats with cork decks or are substituting old cork decks by new ones. That seems to be a good sign as well that Etap had chosen the product to use in their new top of the range boat, the Etap 46ds (an expensive boat).

For what I understand, a cork deck will cost half the price of a teak deck. It is much easier to apply and to substitute, if damaged, and it is a lot more comfortable than teak (elastic, softer, warm in winter, cold in the summer, 7 times better temperature insulating, and even better as an acoustic insulator and has only half the weight of teak.

Now, that is theory. Has anybody have real experience with cork decks?

I really would appreciate some real experience here.

You are right on all points except cost. A quality cork decking surface will cost in the area of 80.00 sqft. We have been installing cork decks for 6 years. Cork has been in service on commercial ferries in Sweeden for over 10years. The passenger count is 6,000 per day and it takes two years for the decks to wear. Do the Math. Cork is the best covering material for a deck. It won't stain ( put it in grape juice for two weeks and wash it with detergent) It is resiliant, dent it and it comes back, if you have to repair it, cut the piece out with a razor knife and the repair will be impossible to find once the new piece is fitted properly. Marine Deck 2000 is the material,
It is a poly cork composite. It will grey out like any wood but during the first year, It will return to color The only maintenance necessery is washing, use Oxyclean for the best results. Harry Hunt www.marine-solutions.com

[Raggi_Thor]

80 USD per square feet?

[Crag Cay]

Apart from the problems with securing a sustainable teak supply, we also need to stimulate more markets for cork. Whilst this will keep the price high in the short term, it will also have several benefits in the longer term. Many conservationists are worried that if wine makers use more plastic corks or crown caps, the drop in demand for cork will make 'cork farms' around the med less economic. They will then fall prey to developers looking for land to build more villas and golf courses. (Obviously some countries have less rigid protection for their cork trees than Portugal).

So to help save the countryside, choose wine from corked bottles and if possible put cork on your decks.

Hurrah! Get drunk - Save the Planet!

[Vega]

That’s an excellent incentive to save the planet...or it is an excellent incentive to drink wine?:confused:

Who cares...both are excellent ideas:p

[harhhnt]

80 USD per square feet?

I have installed cork decks on many vessels. The price installed has averaged 80.00 us. We can make deck panels from patterns supplied by the owner as well. We are mobile and travel anywhere.

Is there something more I can do to assist.

Please contact me through my regular e mail. harhhnt@aol.com if I can be of assistance.

[harhhnt]

Cork is in fact the best decking material. As an installer of cork decks I can tell you first hand, it is lighter than teak because you only apply a 3/8" thickness board. The rated wear tested life is 30 years, it is easily repairable,
and once repaired, the repair cannot be found. It is extremely dent and scratch resistant. It will bounce back, (recover) from a hammer blow. To have any effect on it, a sharp heavy object would have to be dropped on deck, If it were teak your finished. Live with the dent or have a difficult repair. Not the case with the cork. Battery acid will burn its surface, a light scrub with some sandpaper and its as good as new. High heels, spikes can't effect it. I kid you not. Take the challange, try and stain it. I have put walnut oil stain on it, grape juice, wine, acetone, alcohol, mineralspirits, motor oil, transmission fluid, hydraulic fluid, whiskey, chewing gum, dropped starter motors, anchors, struck it with a sledge hammer, left it in my driveway for over a year, put plants on it in clay pots, had raccoons living on a pile of it, they love to chew it and deficate all over it, but it still cleans up with soap and water. To clean it of oil, stain, paint, mineral spirits works best. To just clean it oxyclean or joy dishwashing liquid. Once you have handled it as much as I you will come to understand what a wonderful substance this material is. www.marine-solutions.com Harry Hunt harhhnt@aol

[Vega]

Thanks for the input on the material, even if I am afraid that your "commercial" approach is not the right one for this forum. It is obvious that you have experience with the material and if people want your help, they will contact you. No need to "advertise".

About price, I was under the impression that this material is a lot more easy to apply than teak and that that would show in the final price.

How does compare in price a teak deck with a cork deck?

[harhhnt]

A prefab teak deck, that is, one made in a shop from a pattern generated at the boat, typically cost 100.00 US. If this same deck were laid on a vessel it would be considerably more. Can't say how much exactly. A deck laid on a vessel, would be done time and materials. 120-150.00 USD might be a good approximation.

The cork is far easier to work with, but recognize it is still laid first, then picked up and glued down, then corked, then sanded etc. There is still much of the same labor. The cutting of pieces is some what faster but the overall time is still significant.

There is no "cheap" alternative. Even the vinyl decks are costly.

The bottom line is, if your going to spend a great deal of money to install or replace a deck, you want to get the greatest value, and the cork gives that to you. 30 year life, as opposed to 12-14 with teak. Plus all the great benefits of the material. The synthetic decks do not compare to the cork product. If for example you have to repair one, large sections have to be replaced as it is impossible to really repair them. They cannot be sanded as one is led to believe, as the initital sanding is done in a single direction and this cannot be replicated with any hand sanding equipment. I have tried to replicate their sanded grain and cannot. By the way, Nail polish remover, acetone witll melt them.

I could ramble on for hours on this subject. I have been testing all of these products and can tell you first hand the cork material is the best bet. The vinyl decks are expensive and for that matter so is the cork. Cork looks the best, gives the best value, I have yet to find anything I dislike about it, and love working with the material.

The making of a quality cork deck is like fine stone work, it takes time, and experience to really do a quality job.

Heres a picture of the tools necessery to really do a cork deck.

[Ari]

Wow..this teak and cork deck is very expensive man, at USD100.00 to USD150.00 or even USD88.00 per square feet..! 1 tonne of Chengal wood is only RM8000.00.or USD2150.00, Chengal is as good as teak if not better.

[harhhnt]

This is a cork deck. No teak. What do you think it would take to mill the wood, lay the wood, make the border pieces and the hatch trim.
A ton of wood is just that a ton of wood. It doesn't make its self into a completed deck job. Then you can care for it the rest of its life. What ever floats your boat. Bottom Line, labor cost money, it depends upon where you are purchasing it. You get what you pay for, or for that matter what you work for.

[Ari]

This is a cork deck. No teak. What do you think it would take to mill the wood, lay the wood, make the border pieces and the hatch trim.
A ton of wood is just that a ton of wood. It doesn't make its self into a completed deck job. Then you can care for it the rest of its life. What ever floats your boat. Bottom Line, labor cost money, it depends upon where you are purchasing it. You get what you pay for, or for that matter what you work for.

Sorry I don't know how do cork when still in raw material form looks like, for wood it come in plank form as per your order, plane or not it's up to the buyer, you can run it through another type of machine to make the 'flower' on one side of the surface to make it non slip, any wood work hobyist can do it, very simple. Labour cost will add in to the total cost but I believe is not the biggest cost. How much is a tonne of raw cork ?

[harhhnt]

I have no idea what a ton of raw cork costs. Raw cork looks like tree bark but is very thick. Unprosessed it is useless. The cork planks cost 24.00 sq ft US when finished and ready for use. The labor to construct a deck in any material, is the greatest cost.

[Ari]

I have no idea what a ton of raw cork costs. Raw cork looks like tree bark but is very thick. Unprosessed it is useless. The cork planks cost 24.00 sq ft US when finished and ready for use. The labor to construct a deck in any material, is the greatest cost.

Thank you for your explanation.I'm used to a type of syntetic floor used for indoor courts and when cork quality are discussed here, I'm quite attracted because of cork character is quite similar to that sinthetic material.The only difference is the raw material cost.Looks like Cork is too expensive for my purpose. Thank you everybody.

[Man Overboard]

I’m not sure I understand where all the labor comes in to lay a cork deck. I mean 100 to 150 dollars a square foot. That is just plain ridiculous; I can put up two carbon fiber masts and Kevlar sails for less than the deck covering would cost. What is the difference between marine grade cork and the commercial cork that is sold here in the states? It runs between 2 dollars and 6 dollars a square foot. Does anybody know of a supplier for marine grade cork? We need to hear from someone who has a boat with a cork deck.

[harhhnt]

ETAP is now installing Marinedeck 2000 as standard equipment on their vessels.11684

[A Fn Noob]

http://www.cham3s.com/images/produits/%5Ccorradoete06.jpg

[harhhnt]

My size is 10, can I get a pair? Harry

[A Fn Noob]

Haha.

Ive been looking into this cork thing lately. I really want an alternative to carpet for a bassboat project Ive been working on. I think that cork would be ideal for the bassboat market. I want to try it anyway, so I've been reading a little bit about cork, how it is harvested, processed, and so on. I also saw a website recently where the Chinese are getting into the cork harvesting/processing business. I think its good for the environment all around, too. They harvest the cork from cork-oak trees every 9 years, and take the best material for the wine-cork market. The rest is ground up and made into sheets, blocks, etc.

I think that the waterproof cork products like that shoe are using silicone to bind the cork particles together, but Im not sure. (Anyone want to call Tiva and find out?)

The bass-boat carpet market is huge. They are replacing carpets every few years. Cork decking would provide added cushioning and soundproofing. I guess the key is to find the right balance of flexibility & durability. And of course cost.

Im not in the boat business, just a tinkerer.

[harhhnt]

How can I be of assistance? I import a product called Seacork. You can go to the website www.seacork.com. We are the distributors for this product in the US. I like your thinking, why not get into the business? We can supply sheets of this material or finished panels made from a patterns supplied by the consumer or mfgr. If you wish you can contact me harhhnt@aol.com
or my website www.marine-solutions.com Harry Hunt

[A Fn Noob]

Yes, send me some samples!

[joshuadwright]

I'm in the cork biz. www.coolcorc.com There is more cork today than there ever has been. Cork trees are harvested by peeling the bark, not cutting the tree down. The bark grows back. Very sustainable. The wine industry is getting away from it b/c a screw cap is about 10x cheaper than a good cork bottle stopper. It is very good in compression (gaskets). I'm thinking of using a cork deck on my next boat. I want a boat with a little insulation. Why are boats built without insulation??? It would help even if you didn't have A/C.

[mark775]

In what way is this product superior to a teak deck besides supposedly lasting longer? It is not much cheaper!

[Raggi_Thor]

Lighter?

[harhhnt]

Cork decking is by far the superior alternative decking material. The application of a cork deck brings to your vessel the benefits of little to no maintenance, below deck insulation, (lowering temperatures below deck) a thirty year life expectancy, (teak only bing 12 years) the best adhesion under foot, 45 degrees before slippage even when wet, and cushioning under foot, and it is even comfortable to sit on, no cushions needed!
I have written much about this subject and I find it incredible that the banter continues when there is so much imparicle knowledge about this product, yet the nay sayrs continue to be blinded by their own ignorance to learn.
This product is available in a multitude of thickness 4mm-6mm-8mm-9mm-12mm and 17mm. It looks fantastic on the interior sole as well, but there it should be coated to permit ease of cleaning. More on this if anyone is interested. With the wide selection of thicknesses, all applications can be addressed.
You want light weight? go thin, you want extreme insulation, go thick etc, etc, The bottom line with this product is is the benefits it brings to a vessel,
It cannot be stained, easily repaired if damaged, 30 year longevity, based upon the 9mm product, and all the other self evident attributes, ecologically being the least of it! The Marine industry has already taken care of teak, they dont use it anymore!
By the way, the cork stopper thing! It is not indangered and should be used for wine bottles, the synthetics are not necessery, and not to use cork will put a lot of industries (people) out of work! Just another example of the blind leading the blind. Its a wonder anything new ever gets changed for the better.
there is a report about this go to www.panda.org/mediterranean and
Other website sources
www.fairtrade.org.uk/about_sales.htm
http://www.agirpourlenvironnement.org/presse/23plastok4.htm
http://www.cniid.org/healthcare/docs/resume_KEMI.pdf
http://www.pro-environnement.com/articles/legislation-relative-aux-dioxines-en-milieu-detravail,
6ftq6jn279gy7.html
http://www.cniid.org
http://www.amis-nature.org/sets/setpubliplaq.html
www.realcork.pt
www.celiege.org

HOPE THIS OPENS SOME MINDS!

[apex1]

<<<<<HOPE THIS OPENS SOME MINDS!<<<<<

It would I guess, if not half of the links were outdated and the other half in french.

[harhhnt]

If anyone would like a copy of the report I mentioned, please e mail me at
harhhnt@aol and I will send the report directly to you. Harry Hunt

[Steve W]

Harry,what type of adhesive do you lay the cork planks in,some kind of contact adhesive? i assume the resistance the plank offers when laying a sprung deck is a lot less than springing around a teak plank around. I have laid many a teak deck in my boatbuilding career and have found that two things limit the useful life to under 20yrs and neither of them has anything to do with the material,just the builder and the owner. A teak deck should easily last 30yrs as long as it a/ is laid with square edges (without a rabbeted edge) using temporary spacers,b/it is temporarily held down through the seams while the glue sets so there are no plugs or screws c/ full depth caulking seams with a bond breaker in the bottom so the caulk only adheres to the planks and not the subdeck d/ and this is a biggie,no over exuberant owners who maintain it to death.A 3/8 inch thick teak deck laid this way will last as long as a 3/4 inch deck laid with rabbeted edges and permenant screws and plugs.That said i really like the cork alternative and would love to try it. I have read this thread through and appreciate your input but what is missing is any real life input from an actual owner of a boat with cork decks with some years behind it. btw,i wear Birkenstock sandles with cork soles and love them and they hold up well but eventually break down.
Steve.

[harhhnt]

Hi Steve

We use Saba, Seal One, Fast or slow depending upon the temperature.
If I can be of any assistance please contact me @ harhhnt@aol.com
I would also like to suggest you search blogs by harhhnt. There you will be able to read much about this product and it may be informative. By the way, I have been doing this for almost 10 years.

[mark775]

What is "imparicle knowledge" and how can a salesman's view be regarded as objective? Teak is teak. This stuff on a deck looks like one tried to save money - even if it lasts long and grips well... To each their own tho, as I have an actual board to go cut. Good luck with your presentation!

[Willallison]

I'll give you a non-salesman's opinion, if you want one.
Teak is light, grippy, easy to work, quick to lay, comfortable under foot and durable.
After a great deal of research, I had Marinedeck 2000 installed on Graphite ( http://imaginocean.net/index1.html ) both inside and out. I chose it over Seacork as it is compressed to a higher density and so should wear better. I considered every option available and the cork won hands down.
I would have liked to try Esthec ( http://www.bolidt.nl/esthec/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=132 ) but in the end it was too heavy and too expensive, which is a pitty as they make it in a fab looking grey that would have complimented Graphite's contemporary look really nicely.

[Stumble]

I am a little confused about a couple of things perhaps one of you pros could explain.

1) Benefits of cork are:
Lighter
Wear
Insulation
Traction
Stain resistant
Other I missed ?

2) What I have not seen is any limitations or negatives of the material. Now it could be that there are in fact none, but I find this hard to accept. There are negatives to every material and the trick is to understand these limitations and design accordingly. So could one of you give us an idea of the downsides to cork as opposed to teak?

3) What is the rough price breakdown of Cork. First the material cost, then secondly the installed cost including labor. I have no problem with $150 installed cost, but if that is the price for the materials then it is a bit pricy. Also a rough estimate of the installed price of teak decking in your area would be great since it would allow a comparison with labor costs here.

[Willallison]

I can't comment on the longevity of cork, other than to say that it no doubt varies from one manufacturer to another, just like any other product, and that it has stood up well in commercial applications.
The only obvious down side is that when laid it doesn't look the same as a real teak deck. Not necessarily inferior...just different.

In terms of cost, the wholesale cost for Marinedeck 2000 Exterior runs to about AUD $350 per square metre (9mm thick). Interior is about AUD $110 / m^2. The cost of laying it depends a great deal on the complexity of the job and speed and skill of the installer.