New propulsion sytems for ships

[brian eiland]

I might make the suggestion that you visit this film that I referenced in this discussion of "CRUDE"
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/crude-oil-absolute-must-see-program-21427.html

...a YouTube presentation of the film
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5797240072407639740
(I just found a video of this film on a Google site. The sound is screwed up for the first couple of minutes, but then it seems to straighten out)

...now fast forward to minute 59:00 to the discussion of this 'carbon loop' that produced the very conditions that resulted in the formation of the crude oil in the first place.

Imagine an ocean that is losing much of its sea-life, and then an anoxic event that pushes it into greater stagnation....Ocean Stagnation, it has occurred before. (1hr:02 minutes of the film)

Then have a look at 'the engine of ocean circulation' (1hr:8min:30sec)

Questioning anoxic events?? Take a look at some lakes in upstate New York (1:10:30)

Actually the ability to lower CO 2 levels has been EZ for decades.

Of course WHY one would wish to destroy plant food is beyond me.

However if CO2 is your personal demon , the simple addition of ground iron ore causes a huge bloom in ocean carbon capture , as has been demonstrated.


It's not so much a question of lowering our present CO2 levels....that might be good also. BUT if we can find a way to burn coal without its SIGNIFICANT contribution to the problem, then we here in the USA have solved a big energy problem for a significant intermin time period, as we have a HUGE reserve of coal. With that resource properly developed we would lower our demand on the world's energy resources, and benefit the rest of the world for some considerable time while we look at other technologies.

I'm sure the economy of the world as a whole could utilize a little help at this time....and ours as well. These lower oil prices will not be with us for long.

I for one would much rather see us compressing these foul gases and putting them back underground than seeding our oceans with damaging materials.

[Boston]

I just got out of a meeting at the Denver Zoo and it was partly about the Gasification process by which we will be heating and cooling our new exhibits
basically using animal waste combined with combustible trash to power the system
reduces the waste leaving the zoo and keeps our overall footprint lower

I keep wondering what energy potential algae has as fuel or as a feed stock for celulitic alcohol production
the alcohol group I belong to had no literature on algae as a feed stock although it was suggested that the salt content was to high and would kill the yeast cultures

lets hope there are some changes in the allowable limits for emissions from blue water vessels as we all seem to agree these ships are serious polluters

[masrapido]

... the alcohol group I belong to ...

Just a lapsus or time to start some confessions?

:)

[sigurd]

boston, is an alcohol generator a big bulky unit or something that can be used in a small vessel?

[Boston]

its a distillers club knuckle head :cool:
rehab is for quitters :D

the production unit would be best on land were mixing can be better controlled
although it could work on board
as for size yes it could easily fit on board

the business end of of any ethanol production is the sill itself
the most popular one for about the last twenty years is the Charles 804
reflux still
its a tube about 3" in diameter and six feet or so high capable of putting out 190+ proof ethanol and it costs about $1,000 to buy the kit
but you can get the plans for about $20 and likely get away with paying half that to just build it yourself as it real easy and thats pretty much what every one does
its automated temperature control so its dam efficient and pounds out about 16 liters an hour
although there are several versions of the charles still up to 6" diameter
in a nut shell the limiting factor in distilling fuel alcolol is the yeasts tolerance for alcohol
there is a lot of work going into developing yeast strains that can tolerate high alcohol content mash but so far its about fifteen % tops
that basically means that if you have 100 liters of mash in the boiler you get 15 liters of fuel in aprox one hour
and fermenting takes about two to three days depending on a lot of things
but there are breeder rigs that put out a constant flow of alcohol
the size of the rig depends on the amount of output you are after
INHO the best set up is a multiple fermentation unit with multiple distilling stacks and a boiler size of about 400 liters
if you had say four of them it would take one day to set up the mash
maybe two depending on temp and mixing rates to ferment and one more day to distill it all and start again
lots of sitting around and babysitting a fire once you get the mash going
the yeast pretty much do all the work from there all you do is turn some valves and clean out the kettles for the next batch

empty weight is about zero
and capacity is all about boiler size

if you were mostly sitting in harbor you could set up a still in your back yard and make your own fuel no problem with whatever was handy as feed stock
some just takes longer to ferment than others
cat tails are the best silly as it seems
corn actually has a fairly poor yield
sugar beats are ok
cane sugar is the bomb
but cat tails are a close second
if you want to use wood pulp you can but you have to steam fracture it before you mash it
I think the enzymes are different but the yeast is whatever the highest yield stuff is you can get a hold of
the enzymes break the starchs into sugars and the yeast eat the sugars and excrete alcohol till the alcohol content gets so high it kills em

ask away
Ive been a student of the process for some time and have sat in ( and hoisted a few ) with the Colorado brewers association on many occasions

oh
I asked around about the sea weed for a feed stock and got some pretty strange silence out of everyone except this one professor friend of mine
she said they got there best yields out of Hydrilla which is a water plant
so my idea of using seaweed really got her going with the suggestion of finding the right enzyme to most efficiently break it down in the digestive tract of a sea urchin since they eat the kelp for a living and are bound to be the most likely source of just the right enzymes

there is some secrecy and subterfuge involved in the hole area of research as the profit potential is huge
Ill include a note I got from one of my professor friends so you can see what I mean ( leaving out names of course )
it read as follows

I greatly appreciate your input. We recently returned from three months in the Rio Grande Valley where I had access to the University of Texas Pan American Coastal Lab computers to print out academic papers through their research center--a paid subscription of the university. In most states, state supported schools share with the public and many have grants that pay grad students to show an inquiring investigator how the system works. Almost fifty dollars to read the article on fish digestion is a whopping big sum; yet, it could be the answer to many questions about cell wall destruction. We also need to understand the diet of the species being studied. What do these fish eat?

Termite guts have a number of microorganisms that work in combination to break down cellulose and they have been studied in-depth. As I recall the information about the total number of bacteria there hare several reported numbers from 17 to 27 or so . (Most likely the termite information is filed in one of three computers--Ha! I'm overrun with great information and relish the introduction of more new ideas!) Anyway the comment that I seem to recall is that the researchers believe the cellulosic breakdown process is best done through a symbiotic relationship among microorganisms. In developing GMO's they attempt to embed certain characteristics into a more limited number of organisms instead of using multiple combinations. In my humble opinion, I would recommend doing a series of trails on various combinations and stick with nature. (But then they could not patent it.)

In our trials we used a combination of animal digestive enzymes because they were affordable for the demonstration but not affordable for commercial application. I do NOT want to get into a forum war with people telling me what to do with information that I cannot prove or reproduce at this time. Our previous biochemist used a heavy hand with his battery acid (less expensive than hydrochloric acid) which also leads me to insist that results need to be carefully measured in a systematic study. Even health-food digestive enzymes worked well; yet, are EXTREMELY expensive. Since then two additional biochemist have attempted to wring out information from me and then go off on their own to develop their 'secrets' without sharing back with the world. Greed seems to dominate most people once they think they have a glimmer of enlightenment.

Don't get me wrong. I intend to make significant profit from various biofuels/ biomass projects. Yet, knowing that there is plenty of wealth to share, I have not sold out to dominant investors. They have proved to be viscous. And the government bows to existing 'big business' destroying the effort and intent of the mandated small business development programs (SBIR). And that is another rant.

On a bench test (very small run) the human digestive enzymes also showed hope and demonstrate proof-of-concept for small quantities which is a reason to experiment with packing house waste. We walked a few people through cactus to ethanol steps which also seems reasonable as a feedstock. Cacti are slow growing and not recommended as an energy crop. However, some ranchers have a cactus elimination plan and I represent equipment available to remove cactus without significantly disturbing the land. I really need a lab to make uTube clips of all these things that I have witnessed.

Please let me know more about your interest. I am never bored with good input. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to learning about sea urchins.
Best wishes,
xxxxxxx

[sigurd]

human digestive enzymes... distill your liquor, drink it, puke over the next batch of seaweed and start again.. sustainable intoxication?

Thanks boston, I'll look further into it soon.

[Boston]

this is a new rig that is presently being discussed by the alc group
its simple and small and could be built cheep
kinda a start up rig to help you get the hang of it

http://gillesenergies.webs.com/stillsforsmallproducers.htm#216381801

its not the bomb ethanol still
but its a good starter as it looks to be about $200 to build
and
you can make beer in it
hmmmm
beer

[FAST FRED]

"then we here in the USA have solved a big energy problem for a significant intermin time period, as we have a HUGE reserve of coal."

We have newly discovered nat gas that rivals any find in the world AND at least a centuries worth of shale , that refines to oil in a very clean process.

BUT our congress is determined to only support financially unsucessfull methods , of well paying campaign fund "donors"..

FF

[FAST FRED]

Discussing our congress reminds me of an unsucessful experiment I tried.

Propane is a great fuel for ranges and heaters and lamps ,
BUT has the danger of being heavier than air and Explosive.

The other gas that makes sense is Acceteline , lighter than air .

But the tanks are really heavy , and in our overregulated society are hard to refill.

About 1900 many apartment houses would have Acceteline generators in the back yard providing gas to the units.

Although I built a bunch of test generators I could never get the right combo to run a range.

Sure would be EZ to go cruising with a few cans of rocks (Calcium Carbide), to burn with sea water!

FF

[mydauphin]

Waterworld here we come...

[brian eiland]

.....at least a centuries worth of shale , that refines to oil in a very clean process.

I believe if you do a little research you find that extraction of oil from shale nor tar sands to be that 'clean'.

And the coal supply in this country is still greater. We just need to burn it cleaner.

[FAST FRED]

I believe if you do a little research you find that extraction of oil from shale nor tar sands to be that 'clean'.

It seems to be fine in Canada , clean enough to produce huge volumes and sell it south.

Perhaps we could get some immigrants from the north to show us how its done.

Remember nothing is "clean " enough for the wackos that think mowing the lawn is a form of TORTURE.

FF

[brian eiland]

...some excerpts...

Both mining and processing of tar sands involve a variety of environmental impacts, such as global warming and greenhouse gas emissions, disturbance of mined land; impacts on wildlife and air and water quality. The development of a commercial tar sands industry in the U.S. would also have significant social and economic impacts on local communities. Of special concern in the relatively arid western United States is the large amount of water required for tar sands processing; currently, tar sands extraction and processing require several barrels of water for each barrel of oil produced, though some of the water can be recycled.

About two tons of tar sands are required to produce one barrel of oil. Roughly 75% of the bitumen can be recovered from sand
http://ostseis.anl.gov/guide/tarsands/index.cfm
_________________________________________________

July 11, 2008: Middle East oil running dry? Looking for a new source of energy? John Vidal takes you step-by-step through how to extract oil from Canada's tar sands, destroying habitat, polluting water and increasing carbon emissions as you go
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2008/jul/11/endangeredhabitats.fossilfuels?picture=335405296
_________________________________________________

Large amounts of energy are needed to convert tar. Extracting bitumen from sands and upgrading it to synthetic crude oil may be up to five times more greenhouse gas intensive than conventional crude oil extraction — in the absence of ways to capture those gases and store them underground. Another worry is the damage caused to local ecosystems by such activity.
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/how-big-are-the-risks-for-oil-majors-like-bp-shell-that-exploit-tar-sands/
_________________________________________________

According to the Journal: "heavy oil has big economic and environmental drawbacks. It costs more to produce and takes more energy to turn into gasoline than traditional light oil. Recovering and processing Fort McMurray's heavy crude releases up to three times as much greenhouse gas as producing conventional crude. And upgrading it into refined products, such as gasoline or diesel, will require a gigantic investment to retool global refineries."

The extraction process is so labor intensive and requires so much heat, in order to extract the oil from the tar sand that "Total briefly floated the idea of building a nuclear-power plant" in Fort Mc Murray.
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=30703


Those are just a few references if you had bothered to look Fred....there are a LOT more

[Boston]

its unfortunate that folks are so stuck on carbon based fuels
fuel cells photoelectric wind hydro tidal piezoelectric even the potential of the magnetosphere or the Shewman gap should be considered
the posibilities are endless
there is no limiting factor but the imagination
other than the limits placed on us all by those with a vested interest in the status-quo
oil and fossil fuels people just cant see not burning every last drop before we find another solution
stands to reason since they make money off not making positive change

at the moment I am involved in discussions concerning using enzimes from the digestive tracts of sea urchins to break down harvested seaweed from basic starches into constituent sugars so that it can be used as a feedstock in alcohol production
also there is talk of using basic sewer enzymes readily available and cheep ( septic system cleaners ) in the celulitic process that enables basic yard waste to be used as a feed stock with an increase in yield of up to 30% over more conventional feedstock's like corn or even sugar beets
and
strains of yeast are being developed that are highly alcohol resistant makeing the process even more efficient

there is lots coming down the pipes and fast
the day of corrupt oil and dirty coal are numbered

cheers
B

[FAST FRED]

"other than the limits placed on us all by those with a vested interest in the status-quo
oil and fossil fuels people just cant see not burning every last drop before we find another solution
stands to reason since they make money off not making positive change "

The ONLY vested interest is the CONSUMER , who is looking for energy with the lowest cost.

IF "alternate energy" ever becomes competative , due to the price of it falling , or the price of oil , coal and nuke rising , it will be the Utopia yoy dream of.

Till then its just another political hole tax payers cash is dumped into , for political profit , and advertising cash.

FF

[Boston]

the only vested interest is actually survival of the ecosystem = survival of us all

its the perceived vested interest of the consumer foisted on the populous by co2 laden oil and sulfur rich coal investors that is confusing the solution

97% remains a consensus

[rasorinc]

Natural gas, which is abundant might be the next best in between step before
electricity takes over.

[FAST FRED]

"97% remains a consensus"

Actually the water vapor (clouds) is even a higher percentage of "greenhouse gas".

The tiny percentage of CO2 that exists is a FOLLOWER of climate changes (4 Billion years of changes).

What makes this particular instant in time the EDEN that must be maintained , or "we will all die" is beyond me.

I would much prefer wine from Greenland to 2 miles of ICE on the major cities.

100 years of "Globalony warming" raised the temp .6 of a degree,, LOST in the last decade , back to square 1..

Global warming is a political creation , with Junk Science and the ease with which the media can control the emotional masses on display.

Latest flash , the Ice monitors of the arctic had a "glitch" of a mere 190% and failed to notice ice addition the size of CALIFORNIA!!!

FF

[Guillermo]

I'd appreciate very much if you discuss about GW on the proper thread, not here. Thanks.

[Boston]

agreed

Ras
natural gas is a great go between
we should be focusing on it till better solutions present themselves

ps
the US has huge reserves of natural gas which makes it even better as it need not be shipped long distances

[kistinie]

Or do cooking ?

Is is realistic to use hydrogen gas from battery park to run very small slow motor big inertia doing amps
Is there enough gas ?

[sigurd]

I don't know, but if it was I imagine lead acid beatteries would be very dangerous.

[kistinie]

I don't know, but if it was I imagine lead acid beatteries would be very dangerous.

Oh ! Yes they are very dangerous !

2 explosions in 20 years. Very impressive, ultra rapid explosion, very short, you ear birds, covered with sulphuric acid. A fast shower all your clothes off is ok most of the time.
a bad moment
first cause was grinding 2 metres from a car battery charging in open space
second was an accidental short circuit with a tool, close to a truck battery also charging but at idle.

There is a lot of hydrogen in open batteries !

A gold mine maid of lead ?
a small cell to get water and amps...slowly ?

[apex1]

I think you better study that subject in deep kistinie.
Sigurd, LI batteries can explode under certain circumstances.

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

I think you better study that subject in deep kistinie.
Sigurd, LI batteries can explode under certain circumstances.

Regards
Richard

Li bat are dangerous, explode and burn, just like fuel can.
origin is different
As far as i know

First and most usual origin is overcharging
So bat now have regulator, balancer, and serial port to talk

second origin can be a fabrication default and water contamination on open products
Disastrous effect
Effect of water seems to be this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM&feature=related

Then what ? explodes ? If yes, a strong fused box is not adapted , but rather only burn i guess? Do we Need more than a box and fire extinguisher ?
idiot-proof lithium batteries ? Yes would be better. i agree

But lithium is not compulsory, lead is fine and do nothing bad when folded just stop and gets empty, acid get diluted and mixed with salt

Study in deep ? Go back to school !
Business as usual
yes what seems wired to you ?
What should i dig deeper ?
There is no hydrogen going out of lead batteries when charging them ?
A cell need more pressure of hydrogen
Not enough amp ?
Acid is bad
hydrogen need to be pure
will fly away as it is a mini particle and go across any porous object
you would rather run an hydrogen motor ?
if you know basis about that

I know almost nothing on hydrogen but

2 H plus 1 0 gives water and electricity !


Help us ! Tell us what you have in mind ?
You certainly can help

[apex1]

Li bat are dangerous, explode and burn, just like fuel can.

Wrong.... they can, they must not, and usually dont.
What should i dig deeper ?
There is no hydrogen going out of lead batteries when charging them ?
Not enough to be worth talking


You certainly can help

Might be, but I mentioned earlier, do´nt have the time!

I understand, you do´nt like to read the articles I pointed towards, in deep. :?: As you do´nt like to pay some 4000€ for a inverter, but thats the price, love it or lleave it.
Your dream of environmental friendly energy is childish, sorry. There is only one source of environmental friendly energy available to propel ships, and even that has a Laaarge footprint on the negative side, wind.
Produce the sails, rig, mast, winches, ropes and cleats and calculate what you have done to our world. (just the mast, usually AL, has a energy balance to fear, and is affordable only due to the massively subsidized energy for production worldwide).
But, stop... I do´nt let you free now...:confused:
Now you calculate the engine installation (found in nearly every sailboat), and you bear in mind that the production of a 500hp engine is not ten times the environmental impact as a 50hp, it´s closer to twice.
If you count gram per gram and penny per penny, you´ll be surprised, that a clever designed Motor cruiser after several (say 25) years of blue water cruising, has had a smaller footprint than a sailing vessel of same displacement!!??!!
Now you might escape my claws.:D

I know that does´nt fit into some religious warriors world view, but we have to live with the fact that our old ic-engine is the most environmental friendly propulsion available for boats at present.

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Richard, you mix to world with different needs

Big boat, 500hp, are for 30 to 100 passengers at sea ? (Or a big one, but cleared that option of debat)
In this case fuel is needed for the moment, hybrid or not, 100% and i regret it, trust
On a river, lake, certainly not. Electric choice is very probably much better.

For light boats light multihulls, and soon i think, solar boats windmill boat, under 50 feet, electricity and a light DC generator is a valid and tested solution, used by charter boats for years now.
Windmill boat will clear the sailing boat from all these ropes, mast and pulley that had bothered any sail lover at least on day in his life :-)
I will probably still love classic sails, i admit, but both will be here and fine to move for low cost !


Till this moment lets look at the real world, a charter boat in hot humid country by example,

Ask Serge what he thinks of his DC brushed motors in his cat ?

Fuel use was lowered at 75% of previous year, doing professional charter, mixing battery and generator motoring
75% less fuel ? This talks to you ?
A good sailor that know how to sail + a simple DC motor = 75% more efficient than fuel.

This means that 100% reduction is possible with better efficiencies

http://www.captainchericroisiere.nc/

[apex1]

Richard, you mix to world with different needs

Big boat, 500hp, are for 30 to 100 passengers ? Nonsense, who said that?


For light boats light multihulls, and soon i think windmill boat, under 50 feet
electricity and a light DC generator is a valid solution used by charter boats for years now.
Windmill boat will clear the sailing boat from all these ropes, mast and pulley.
Nonsense!

you should ask Serge what he thinks of his DC brushed motors in his cat ? no, you should provide the proof
Fuel use was lowered at 75% of previous year, doing professional charter, mixing battery and generator motoring
75% less fuel ? This talks to you ?
Ja, Nonsense again!

http://www.captainchericroisiere.nc/

The ability to read is a mighty supporter, and sometimes can help to keep people on your side, instead of fighting windmills.

And compare apples and apples, who said anything about passenger transport?

Your "professional charter" boat has lowered it´s fuel consumption by 75%? I doubt that!
And the genny is running on fresh water? The inverters did not cost about 1000€ per kw ? The batteries have been for free? The installation was a gift?
The installation you mentioned has been at least!!! twice the cost of a classical Diesel propulsion. period
You would´nt post such nonsense if you would have followed my first advice, to read the articles I provided, So, why do´nt you do that? Is it your intention to rankle with me?

[kistinie]

Your "professional charter" boat has lowered it´s fuel consumption by 75%? I doubt that!
And the genny is running on fresh water? The inverters did not cost about 1000€ per kw ? The batteries have been for free? The installation was a gift?
The installation you mentioned has been at least!!! twice the cost of a classical Diesel propulsion. period

When Serge writes fuel is down 3/4, why would he lie ? Stay fair please.
Serge is respected sailor, love his solution, clients too, and he will never turn back to IC motor for propulsion.

motor controller SEVCON or KELLY and many others : 5 kw : 450 $ each
motor Agni 700 $ each
belt, bearing, propeller : 450 each (800 x2 for a simple pump jet instead of 1 propeller)
Batteries : 2000$
management, wires, 500$

220AC/48 dc group : 4000$ (price can go down on this)

So ? Verdict

this is more expensive than 2 inboards ?
Ah !
What a joke !
it is two times cheaper rather !

Maintenance ? on electricity !
What another joke...Nothing but drop of oil on motor bearings...and gentle cleaning

[apex1]

Serge is respected sailor, and love his solution, will never turn back

motor controller SEVCON or KELLY and many others : 5 kw : 450 $ each
motor Agni 700 $ each
belt, bearing, propeller : 450 each (800 x2 for a simple pump jet instead of 1 propeller)
Batteries : 2000$
management, wires, 500$

220AC/48 dc group : 4000$ (price can go down on this)

So ? Verdict

this is more expensive than 2 inboards ?
Ah !
What a joke !
Maintenance ? on electricity !
What another joke...Nothing but drop of oil on motor bearings...

Ja, again you do´nt know what you´re talking about.
Motor controller is´nt a inverter, pricing you show is Wal Mart level, and the Battery you expect to live forever? Make your homeworks, than teach the Professionals.
I do my business since 42 years and installed "alternative" systems already 30 years ago. Beg your Pardon, you are by no means a adequate person to discuss with, and you are too stubborn to learn! You have given proof of that now almost ten times! Read post #206 in the other thread you messed up, gain your knowledge and show, the audience can take you for serious.
This is the last reply to any of your posts, cos´ you´re just kidding and not willing to learn.
Richard

[kistinie]

Wal mart level ?

SEVCON and KELLY ?
http://www.sevcon.com/
http://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/

They will smille reading you and won't find you friendly !

All the equipment listed is industrial product made for electric cars, electric boats, and forklift lifters
By exemple, lead batteries last 10 years if well cared and de-sulphated by 2 MHz impulsions 60V for 1 batt 12v. Yes works great, old submarine technic to protect batteries

Amateur : A guy who loves what he does.
Doesn't mean incompetent

PRO:
Make his leaving with what he does.
Doesn't mean competent.

So as i do not know what i an talking about, and you do, we all want to listen to your solution for my 40 ft 3 tons trimaran, if it is not this one (or a clone) divided by 2 as i am a trimaran ?
What is your solution ?
What is a good new propulsion/ electric energy storage you pay for in 2009 ?
(i need electricity for Weather report, PC, AIS, RADAR, IRRIDIUM, GPS, LIGHT, MUSIC)

A flywheel ,not for me i don't like infra sound and noise in general
Ethanol. No, in France we drink it rather
windmill, yes but not the money for it
maybe later will pull of the sails of my boat for a new wind propulsion

Sorry i did not see where you wanted to take me.
Really sorry i do not understand you.

[sigurd]

LiFePo don't explode. 1$/wh 2000 cycles.

[kistinie]

LiFePo don't explode. 1$/wh 2000 cycles.

2000 average , Cool !
And
certainly much more with smart chargers, balancing cell groups, charging separately elements.
and also by respecting the technical need of the baterry when using them

Lead battery sucked dry often last 4 to 10 time less... than a respected one

Electric recumbent trike based car used Lipo with great success for several years
Manufacturers can do long life batteries if they decide and if we are careful too in our way using it

And all type of lithium based batteries exit
All are not equivalent
All are not the sames

Look at these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3o_2mwRPdw

[rasorinc]

I post this just for general information. Rolls/Surretti batteries are rated the best for Marine workboats. http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/

[kistinie]

I post this just for general information. Rolls/Surretti batteries are rated the best for Marine workboats. http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/


7 to 10 Year... Warranty...

Life: 15 years ?

Feeding us with breakable toys, manufacturers made us forget an object can live 10, 20 , 30 , 50 years.



But we must admit also that sea environment is far from friendly for our electric and mechanical equipments !

[rasorinc]

warranty info. http://www.surrette.com/content/marine-battery-warranty

[apex1]

I post this just for general information. Rolls/Surretti batteries are rated the best for Marine workboats. http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/

They are the best Stan.

[Boston]

apex
based on post 526
the embodied energy of a wooden ship traditional build with cloth sails and natural fiber lines wood masts and booms is not so bad
its when you get into composites and aluminum that you start the downward spiral
eventually I think we will get back to basics when it comes to transoceanic cargo
once the world comes to its senses about the hole carbon pollution thing

[rasorinc]

apex1, Yes they are the best although a bit pricy $$$ for the small boater.
Great warrantys--up to 120 months (prorated )after the 1st 3 years for their top of the line. stan

[apex1]

apex1, Yes they are the best although a bit pricy $$$ for the small boater.
Great warrantys--up to 120 months (prorated )after the 1st 3 years for their top of the line. stan

I used them in a wind power backup installation for a Holiday Resort on Bali to cover peak demand and grid failure, good value. Will use them again in my own house if I do´nt go for Redox Flow battery, not shure.
Regards
Richard

[apex1]

apex
based on post 526
the embodied energy of a wooden ship traditional build with cloth sails and natural fiber lines wood masts and booms is not so bad
its when you get into composites and aluminum that you start the downward spiral


Agree, but look at your local marina, GRP and AL, as far as you can see, only.
Naturally, many improvements are possible and worth the effort. I just wanted to point out, that it is´nt as simple as it was said in one of the (very naive) posts above. Just "I go for wind instead of IC engine", is a childish statement and not the whole story.

Regards
Richard

[kistinie]

Just "I go for wind instead of IC engine", is a childish statement and not the whole story.

Regards
Richard

childish statement !

Sentiments are not facts
Lets put adult numbers on the table:

In an average sailing boat with his regular sailor:

Sail : 70% of time, hydro generate electricity aboard.
In this case 130% to 150% efficiency from your nominal available electric power as you create energy for present use and stock it too in batteries for future use.
Does your IC engine spits oil in a can if turned reverse when you sail ?

You motor from battery : 20% of time
In harbour I/O or for short distance, cool motion in nice places
100% efficiency as you use an energy you made yourself


you start IC generator: 10% time left to allow you tokeep on moving after battery are flat.
In this case your efficiency is average, more or less like IC+CPP...Not dramatic as it is just 10% of the time of use

Of course if you never sail, only motor...get a motor boat, it is nice too !

This is real life


So in my opinion, we behave like mammoth, myself included
We all are mammoth when we burn oil.
Mammoth have left the surface of earth not because they where good or bad, but only because their time was over
Burning oil is burning our future
Mammoth burn oil.

The time of burning oil should stop as fast as possible.


How much petrol do we have left :
40,60, 120 years with coal liquefied ?

And after ?

After the last drop of oil no more of this !

CARBON FIBERs
KEVLAR
SPECTRA
NOMEX
EPOXY
POLYESTHER
ERTALON
POLYETHYLENE

Imagine your life without theses materials
Heavy life for shure


We need the earth
We need oil for clever secured chemical use only

Earth need urgently respectable use of its resources
Hybrid goes in this direction if installation are good quality and a long lasting, over 20 years, and reliable.

Hybrid lowers oil burning of most boats as it is more efficient for slow and cool motion.

Oil is a gift.
Oil is unique and only replaceable by coal

Burning oil is stupid
I burn oil, just like you
I regret it,
i am not satisfied to do so.
That is why i want an electric boat.


[CENTER]MAYDAY MAYDAY MADY
STOP BURNING OIL IN MOTORS
OIL IS A TREASURE
STOP BURNING OIL
[CENTER]

[apex1]

childish statement !
I guess this gift is for me

You sail 70% of time
Then you hydro generate 100% of your electricity aboard.
In this case 130% to 150% efficiency as you create energy for present use and stock it too.


This is real life


Physically very interesting point of view, get it patented! Become a billionaire, leave us ignorant ****** stick to ice age. But leave us..........
And thats for free hähh?

[kistinie]

A cat or trimaran sailing 8/15 Knts will fill the batteries reaching 100% of his energy reserve, and will keep producing 30 to 50 % of the rated power of the motor. So this is a 130 to 150% gain from empty.

You do not like this way of thinking ?
This is the reality of physics
And this is public domain technology, available for all.
Hydro generating electricity just as old as electricity.


Sailing above 12 Knts with a good propeller and a good motor, feeds batteries with 50% efficiency or very close. And maybe more with good prop and MPPT controller

With a 6 Knts heavy trawler, efficiency can be similar, or even better because of low speed
But low speed will also make the total available energy, lower.

Minimum speed to get amps is 5, being better, Knts, You will need a very big propeller, bringing other problems.

You know just like me that force you get in a fluid is more than square of speed.
A cat sailing 12 Knts, is not 2 times more powerful than a 6 Knts trawler but rather 4 times. Same is for energy you bring to your batteries

[mydauphin]

I am moving my boat to highest concentration of electric boat and start charging for tows....

Electric Motors are for windshield wipers.... That will get all you boiling hot.. lol..

[Boston]

I hate to throw a wrench into the logic
but we ate out the Woolly Mammoths
there numbers went down as human numbers went up
big slow and apparently kinda tasty

same thing with the ancient wild horses the giant ground sloths and a host of others

as paleolithic man spread throughout new regions
he ate everything dumb enough not to run like hell
and what did run
got herded off a cliff

speaking of cliff
were in the process of heading off one ourselves if we dont learn to get from point a to point b a little more efficiently

wouldnt hurt if we could learn not to eat everything out of existence either

[apex1]

A cat or trimaran sailing 8/15 Knts will fill the batteries reaching 100% of his energy reserve,

Nonsense !



Sailing above 12 Knts with a good propeller and a good motor, feeds batteries with 50% efficiency or very close.

Never will a 2 tonnes Multi go 12 knots (at normal weather) with a prop down producing sufficient electricity to load a battery of the size needed!
And 50% efficiency is just a dream.

With a 6 Knts heavy trawler, efficiency can be similar, or even better because of low speed
But low speed will also make the total available energy, lower. Nonsense, the opposite is true.

Minimum speed to get amps is 5, being better, Knts, You will need a very big propeller, bringing other problems.
Nonsense, who told you that?

A cat sailing 12 Knts, is not 2 times more powerful than a 6 Knts trawler but rather 4 times. Biggest nonsense in this post.
Go to shool, and listen to your teachers this time!
Same is for energy you bring to your batteries

You make silly statements again, as usual. Just one point:
A boat of 100 tonnes displ. dragging a prop at 6kn might produce 50 times the energy your tiny toy could do. Still not economically but possible.

Thats physics............................

[brian eiland]

...have you fellows seen this??

A project by PlanetSolar to design and construct a solar catamaran that will be used to circumnavigate the globe during a 25,000-mile, 120-day journey in 2010. The company, based in Germany, will use stops during the trip to promote renewable energy and solar power.

At first I wondered, why does a sailboat need solar power? After all, sailboats under sail are the ultimate green vehicles. But then the words “dead calm” leapt into my mind. And, when there’s no cloud cover it certainly is pretty sunny on the ocean.

PlanetSolar is using several products from Autodesk to design the boat including Digital Prototyping features in Autodesk Inventor that will help visualize the impact of design changes. The engineers are also using AutoCAD Electrical and Autodesk Productstream.

Here’s a YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=segZLqS37IM) about the project.

Website: http://www.planetsolar.org/bateau.en.php

[JonathanCole]

.

A project by PlanetSolar to design and construct a solar catamaran that will be used to circumnavigate the globe during a 25,000-mile, 120-day journey in 2010. The company, based in Germany, will use stops during the trip to promote renewable energy and solar power.

At first I wondered, why does a sailboat need solar power? After all, sailboats under sail are the ultimate green vehicles. But then the words “dead calm” leapt into my mind. And, when there’s no cloud cover it certainly is pretty sunny on the ocean.



Glad to see that they abandoned the impractical wave piercing trimaran which was their original design. This catamaran design pretty much has the right stuff although I am not sure that their hull shape in maximally efficient. A large flat array with nothing to shade the panels (the slight protrusion of the pilot house bubble should not be a problem). Actually I think that the view from that bubble makes it nearly useless to see anything but the sky. It makes more sense on a boat like this to have the pilot be at a front position on the deck with a remote control so that the boat can be piloted from anywhere on the ship. The designs I have made also have video cameras at at least five locations.

Solar boats require a large battery which also serves as ballast and keeps the CG low. How they build the battery into the boat will be important. These systems need to be accessible while underway.

By the way, solar boats can continue to make headway in cloudy weather. They generate electricity from light. Even dark cloudy conditions allow 10-20% of the rated output. Plus they utilize a large storage battery to have as much as 1-2 days of modest cruising with minimal sun.

Another thing about this design is that it has hinged wings. These can be oriented toward the sun for maximum generation of power. However I have my doubt as to whether this would be practical underway. Generally, mechanical systems are much less reliable than the solid-state photovoltaic system. If one of these wings were to break or become damaged underway it would put a severe restriction on the performance of the vessel.

[Boston]

I commend there efforts but that is one but ugly boat

[mydauphin]

You imagine- if when that prop planes where replace with Jets, that these new plans where slower, or in general got worst performance. Would we still be flying in Prop planes. Notice something - propeller planes get better fuel mileage and have a lower carbon footprint than jets. But is any one flying then cross country by choice. How about electric airplanes?

If you want an electric boat - or want to make an electric boat, make it perform like a real boat. Not 1 or 5 or 10 hp, that is a joke. It can't move out of tidal current, or any kinds of flow. Or at least make sure you have a gas outboard as a backup to get it out of the way of that big tanker head your way.

[sigurd]

myda, I see you are interested in electric boats. I suggest you need to look at the limitations. current battery tech is 0.2kwh/kg. Current motor tech is around 10 kw/kg. What is really nice about it is that the motor is >90% efficient, directly applicable to the screw with no gear. It is a simple device with one moving part for the entire drive train plus bearing balls. There is nothing to wear out except batteries and bearings.
If you need power this is not a problem. You can have batteries with intermittent power of >10kw/kg. However storing a lot of energy in battery is expensive and heavy.
So, figure a way or some ways to charge the batteries. Charging can be >90 efficient. Externally there is sun, waves, water flow for a sailboat (example, with 40% efficiency, a 40cm dia screw can extract ca 3kw at 10kt), and wind.
As you can see solar energy requires some considerable surface. Wind generators are reasonably compact. Wave generators for this application are unknown to me, but should be possible to make quite compact.
Finally there is chemical storage. Since the motor is already an ideal generator, it seems logical to use a rotary engine with a fitting speed.
Or, you can check out the thermoacoustic thread of mine here in propulsion somewhere. Many chemical to mechanical converters can eat a variety of fuels. Especially those with external combustion, like a steam plant, stirling engine, the thermoacoustic one, but also IC piston engines and turbines can often be run on wastes or scavenged fuel like wood or trash.

I don't know the size of your boat... 10hp is perfectly reasonable for many boats up to 50 ft., especially sailboats. Most boats that size has too much resistance though. The three most imporant factors to consider for this, are, a narrow hull, a narrow hull, and low windage.

In my opinion the most obvious reason for getting a motor is the ease of scavenging energy from the surroundings. If you had needs of high short duration power at low weight it could also be considered, but this is not common with boats. Electric transmission is also to be considered. It is chosen sometimes because it allows the engine to move at its most efficient pace for each load.

[Guest625101138]

You imagine- if when that prop planes where replace with Jets, that these new plans where slower, or in general got worst performance. Would we still be flying in Prop planes. Notice something - propeller planes get better fuel mileage and have a lower carbon footprint than jets. But is any one flying then cross country by choice. How about electric airplanes?

..........

Electric motors have overtaken ICEs in model planes. Half the weight. half the cost and same power but over a wider rev range - ideal for planes. No need to carry a separate electric motor and battery to start them either.

Dare say the fastest growing area for motor transport is electric scooter - take a look at China. The fastest growing area for automobiles is hybrid (essentially electric propulsion). Straight electric cars are now in commercial production.

Certainly small manned aircraft are now using electric motors.

Here is one of my electric motor tests. The motor is running on 24V in the video and listen to the music. It can be run up to 72V and 200A. Roughly 20HP at the shaft. It can be carried in one hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg9-APfZ5Tw
This is serious power to weight and achieves it at 90% efficiency.

Rick W

[sigurd]

I thought most of that was brush noise but then I read your description again. Care to speculate where it comes from? Looks compact.

[brian eiland]

Electric motors have overtaken ICEs in model planes. Half the weight. half the cost and same power but over a wider rev range - ideal for planes. No need to carry a separate electric motor and battery to start them either.

Dare say the fastest growing area for motor transport is electric scooter - take a look at China. The fastest growing area for automobiles is hybrid (essentially electric propulsion). Straight electric cars are now in commercial production.

Certainly small manned aircraft are now using electric motors.

Here is one of my electric motor tests. The motor is running on 24V in the video and listen to the music. It can be run up to 72V and 200A. Roughly 20HP at the shaft. It can be carried in one hand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg9-APfZ5Tw
This is serious power to weight and achieves it at 90% efficiency.

Rick W
Hello Rick,
I'm with you buddy. I think this electric drive motor field is wide open for innovation. I am particularly interested in the all-electric car. I do think the 'storage problem' is the biggest obstacle, and I'm trying to track a bit of this EEStor experimentation. Do you know of better or other comparable experimentation in electrical energy storage??

Batteries and New Battery Technologies
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/batteries-new-battery-technologies-21869.html

Put me on your mailing list. I'm on sabbatical from the boating subjects for awhile

[Guest625101138]

I thought most of that was brush noise but then I read your description again. Care to speculate where it comes from? Looks compact.

The controller produces a trapezoidal waveform. The noise is the magnetic cogging related to the field switching.

You can get sinusoidal controllers but they are not quite as efficient. I understand they are quieter though.

The noise is different to a single cylinder diesel of course. More like music.

Rick W

[Guest625101138]

Hello Rick,
......

Put me on your mailing list. I'm on sabbatical from the boating subjects for awhile

Brian
My efforts in the realm of solar-wind electric boats is quite sporadic at present. I am really only fiddling with components that go together to make it all work.

I have other things that will take my attention till the end of this year so not too much happening. Doubt that it will be of much interest to you for the immediate future.

Rick W

[sigurd]

Thump..thump...thump...
68% thermal efficiency bass drum motor (deisel) (http://www.sof.or.jp/en/activities/pdf/06_07.pdf)

[sigurd]

Fshht... Fsshht... Fshht...
snares engine (steam Power!) (http://www.cyclonepower.com/cyclone_engine_uses.html)

[sigurd]

Baooooouumm....

Bassline Burner (http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/812682-jU4SPa/native/812682.pdf)

[harlemriverman]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

http://www.sunboat.com/

[kistinie]

Following post 547, ending like this about generating electricity with a tiny toy (40x31', 3 tons trimaran....)


You make silly statements again, as usual. Just one point:
A boat of 100 tonnes displ. dragging a prop at 6kn might produce 50 times the energy your tiny toy could do. Still not economically but possible.

Thats physics............................

Bird names !!!
Great idea !
What is the next level ?
Giving me a yellow star ?
Cooool ! i will be a Marshall like Steeve Mc Queen ?

Mmmmm...Keep cool, it's just a boat discussion


So it seems we had not the same physic teacher...
:)

OK ! Lets talk of facts.

AQUAGEN 6 (very poor 90mm towed propeller), i have on my Trimaran as a safety device gives me :

16 amps /14V at 12 Knts with 60 Lbs drag
10 amps /14V at 10 Knts with 40 Lbs drag
2 amps /14V at 5 Knts with 8 Lbs drag
1 amps /14V at 4 Knts with 4 Lbs drag

With 60 Lbs drag on the 3 tons of vessel, what is my speed reduction ?
Under 1 Knts, closer to 1/2 ! Is this acceptable ?

What is wrong with what i said about energy at 12 Knts 4 time higher than 6 knts ?
basic formula for energy is 0.5 X weight x Speed²
For a fast light boat, i agree, seems pessimistic, as from 5 to 10 Knts, ratio is not 4X, but 5X !!!


So energy of 3 tons trimaran sailing 12 Knts will be the same than a 5x3 tons = 15 tons boat sailing 6 knts
So a 100 tons boat 6 Knts gives 6.6 times the energy of my 3 tons trimaran sailing 12 Knts

How did you calculate 50 ?
Please explain me this miracle !

How many HP do you need for the same energy with IC engine on your 100 tons yacht, 500 ? More ?

For the same energy
Increasing mass is a far less efficient choice than raising speed with low weight
Do like smart sailors, ride a toy !
Trimaran toy, catamaran toy, Prao toy, sex toy...Will make you feel happier ...than heavy slow frigid boats !



As you do not feel comfortable with numbers, here are some vid, to show you how powerful is a light multihull

With a 20 feet trimaran (50% discount toy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES3VR8MXvsY&feature=channel_page

With 50 feet (African size toy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLMOdhce-Pk


For readers coming here directly
A small Sum up

electric propulsion is the close next future of auxiliary sail boat propulsion
To solution all problems at once a CPP is almost compulsory, and 100% compulsory in case of very fast racer
To keep the all system simple a pod is the best solution

Remains ONE big problem...the product doesn't exist !

[Boston]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kBYJul2ykZs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kBYJul2ykZs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

been looking a lot at wind power and vawt style generators when I stumbled onto this flicker

[kistinie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRYwrHQyJAM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2GLrZSTsI8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7F_jEbeW0g&feature=related


wind :1
ice engine : 3

So this is scientifically demonstrated, ICE is more dangerous than windmill


More seriously, flying piston, blades or ...cylinder head can happen, and all this underline the fact that high speed devices are high energy so high potential danger
Wear an helmet !

[brian eiland]

'The rise in popularity in hybrid cars has inspired ICOMIA to invest in a marine equivalent.'

Thanks to the rise in hybrid road vehicles, International Council of Marine Industry Associations (ICOMIA) is dedicating resources to adapting the same technologies to boating applications.

But since there are no fully optimised systems in the marketplace, technical writer Nigel Calder teamed up with marine engineer and ICOMIA research adviser Ken Wittamore and recruited a powerful team of experts to perfect marine hybrid propulsion systems.

With ICOMIA’s support, the pair have been provisionally offered European Union’s (EU) Hybrid Marine (HYMAR) project; a €2.2m grant from the Framework 7 research budget.

The HYMAR team includes EnerSys, manufacturers of the Odyssey TPPL battery, for expertise on energy packs; Victron Energy for power electronics and software development; Dave Tether of E-Motion Special Projects for extensive experience in marine hybrid system implementation; Bosch Engineering GmbH to help perfect the central system controller; Steyr Motors, for cutting-edge diesel engine and electric machine technology; Bruntons Propellers and INSEAN, an Italian research institute, for a world-class propeller development capability; and Malo Yachts for the test boat and related services. Steyr Motors is also the builder of a parallel hybrid that has won several awards.

The HYMAR project will use the NMEA 2000 industry standard communications protocol, together with highly reliable automotive controllers, to form the backbone of the new, open system. This will ensure that hybrid systems can be built from any suitable equipment that uses NMEA 2000, expanding the market and bringing the benefits of hybrid technology to the widest possible number of users.

Critical control logic and software for the controller will be developed collaboratively and will be the single most important outcome of the project. Additional collaborative arrangements will result in ancillary components, such as cost-effective high-powered distribution panels with the necessary CE and other certifications.

HYMAR will lead the process for writing a new ISO and ABYC standard for electric propulsion systems and high voltage DC marine electrics, which will ensure that the wider marine industry will benefit from this research project.
‘We started fairly modestly but the prospect of significant EU funding has enabled us to attract the very best companies in the market,’ said Mr Wittamore. ‘Our consortium includes world class players with incredible engineering skills and experience. The EU funding is leveraging resources beyond our most optimistic expectations.’

‘I am becoming increasingly confident that in two to three years time we will have the technology for a broad array of hybrid systems and associated peripheral devices suitable for power, sail and small commercial boats from 30ft to 100ft,’ said Mr Calder. ‘These systems will go well beyond anything currently available in terms of sophistication, efficiency, cost-effectiveness, and ease of use.’


Here is another reference website on the subject:
http://www.electricmarinepropulsion.org/Pages/NewsFrom_EU-HYMAR.html

[kistinie]

Great news !
Thanks for this

Coming back to noise

....

The noise is different to a single cylinder diesel of course. More like music.

Rick W

Diesel is less noisy, and more "musical" (if it can ?) with a gas (butane, propane, hydrogen, acetylene, methane, whatever...) added to air for combustion.
So in an hybrid mind, to go on a soft conversion of the ICE industry, this is an easy refit solution for existing park of diesel engine to keep in mind. Not universal answer but pertinent for many cases as bio gas can be produced in hundred of manners.

Sorry for this ICE break in such an electric moment, but i'm afraid we will have to pay attention to the ICE world if we do not want the ICE world to take care of us.
Underestimating this psychological and economical opposition is a wrong strategy.
H² and bio gaz will give a new interest to ICE, this should be use as a gateway to new tech.

[brian eiland]

EOSEAS, greenship concept born from the ECORIZON program
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkFFLMTkNks

...this is a little bit larger tri-hull than anticipated for the New-Age Trawler/Motorsailer (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/new-age-trawler-motorsailer-kite-assisted-poweryacht-20319.html)concept :eek: :rolleyes:

[kistinie]

Congratulations to all the team, all my wishes of success. I hope we will see this ship soon on the sea.
Who is the inventor of this "air carpet" ?
I found this
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0293538.html
The device is very far from a simple thing...

[Guillermo]

Interesting they do not suggest RIM propellers.
I'm also wondering why do they suggest marconi style rigs, instead of the dynarig or whatever other more efficient in open courses. That ship is not going to race around the cans....

[sigurd]

Hi; most impressive solid fuels burning: www.worldstove.com
check out youtube for luciastove, worldstove.
Blue flame, even without a fan!
It can gasify for IC engines also. Hot ceramic filter cracks tars... no cyclone, cloth or other filter needed?

[brian eiland]

I gave this subject its own new subject thread as it just might be that exciting to justify it:

Bloom Box energy cell

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/bloom-box-revolutionary-new-fuel-cell-technology-31618.html#post346856

[Guillermo]

Mmmmm, let's wait to know any real eficiency data.
Cheers.

[The copper guy]

They will always find the cheapest setup and use it. Forget changing them. They are registered in countries that care less than nothing.

WE ALL WONT THE CHEAPEST and they will jump at anything cheaper than oil,
already they are running on reduced revs to save on expensive fuel.
If we the end users can provide an alternative transport method? there is no doubt the shipping companies will jump at the opportunity.

[Guillermo]

Here the revealed solid oxide fuel cell:
http://www.bloomenergy.com/

The web site is a nice marketing hype, but they talk about savings without providing numbers to corroborate...mmmm...

[FAST FRED]

"already they are running on reduced revs to save on expensive fuel."

Actually for most it is a big process to "run on reduced revs" as the hull and drive setup are designed as a package.

It is about 1/2 million US to change the bulbous bow to one that is efficient at the slower speed .

Then of course there are prop and propulsion engine modifications to pay for.

No free lunch just with the throttle.

FF

[Guillermo]

Not always are things like that, implying substantial modifications, Fred. In fact they are just slowing down:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/02/danish-cargo-ship-fleet-cuts-fuel-use-30-percent-half-speed.php

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0487e/x0487e03.htm

http://www.futurefuelsme.com/news/2008/news_08_074.html

etc, etc.


Cheers

[masrapido]

These cells may be efficient, but are still too big. Look at the dimensions. For a decent power you would need a container ship just to store the cells.

They would need to be miniaturised significantly to reach diesel's power-to-volume ratio.

[powerabout]

Last year Maersk altered their timetables to reflect the new slow speeds.