Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats [Archive]

caribmon

11-15-2005, 04:48 AM

Electric Drives - Propulsion of the Future
(http://www.boatbuilding.com/article.php/ElectricDrivesFuturePropulsion)
by Richard Kastelein (http://www.avanteyachts.com)

In my opinion, electric powered boats have definite advantages. They are environmentally friendly, and very quiet; they run with only a whisper of sound. They are reef friendly, quiet in harbours, are cheaper to run and emit no pollutants.

So why are we still using fossil fuels and Marine diesel engines to provide propulsion for ocean going vessels?

Consider the typical internal-combustion engine. From the time a charge of fuel ignites in a cylinder, it has to push pistons, turn a crankshaft, turn a camshaft, open valves, pump water, pump oil, turn an alternator, and submit to reduction from a transmission to step the engine's thousands of revolutions down to something a propeller can use. By the time that's done, the engine's efficiency is somewhere below 25 percent. Also, diesel engines are rated at their maximum rpm - and on sailboats are rarely operated at that speed.

http://www.avanteyachts.com/joomla/images/solomon.gif (http://www.solomontechnologies.com/)

By contrast the the efficiency of Solomon Technologies (http://www.solomontechnologies.com/)' electric motor is a percentage in the low 90s. Here's how it works: When the system is switched on, DC current from the batteries enters an electronic controller, which produces expanding and contracting magnetic fields in the motor's stator windings. These magnetic fields attract and repel the fields from three permanent magnets, made from neo-dymium iron boron, that are attached to the rotor.

The controller electronically modulates the pulse width to increase or decrease speed. At 13 inches wide, the motor provides ample contact with the shaft to produce high torque at low rpm, enough for the motor to turn particularly large propellers. Fixed three-bladed 18/18 (diameter/pitch, in inches) propellers are typical in many of STI's installations. From the flowing electrons to the turning prop, the shaft passes through only two bearings and a stern gland - and no transmission, all of which accounts for its high efficiency. Furthermore, with the electric motor, the relationship between rpm and torque is linear: You can use it to turn the boat's prop at 1 rpm or 10 rpm or 50 rpm or 100 rpm. An internal-combustion engine needs to cross an rpm threshold before its propeller is put in gear; otherwise, it would stall.

http://www.avanteyachts.com/joomla/images/cat_port792sm.jpg (http://www.avanteyachts.com/joomla/images/cat_port792.jpg)

Probably the most amazing aspect of the STI's electric drive is its ability to produce electricity with a low-speed, high-output alternator driven by the prop shaft when a boat is under sails. In other words, the device is converting the prop's rotation into stored energy.

http://www.avanteyachts.com/joomla/images/panda.gif (http://www.whisperprop.de/E_1FEF76507EF4738DC1256E68003E64FC_E36441ECDF56C39E00256CC3003DC55C.html)

http://www.avanteyachts.com/joomla/images/whispergen.gif
(http://www.whispergen.com/main/dcwhispergen/)
Other new developments in this area of Electric drives are being addressed with companies such as ASMO Marine (http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/01.shtml) and Fischer-Panda (http://a) for utilising electric propulsion in production craft as well as Fast Electric Systems (http://www.feys.org/) and MW Line (http://www.mwline.ch/) in Switzerland for using straight electric drives in larger vessels.

For those that prefer a little more muscle in terms of power - and would prefer to have a dual propulsion system - the hybrid diesel-electric may be the answer. Whilst it's more environmentally friendly - straight electric is not practical for some commercial operators, powercats and motorsailors for a variety of reasons including availability of shorepower, horsepower issues, or lack of a backup system.

For those who prefer a dual system there's a couple of options.

One is using DC generator (http://www.glacierbay.com/ossa_powerlite.asp) input for electric drives. What's the difference in fueling up a DC generator with diesel to top up batteries in order to directly drive a propulsion system (http://www.whisperprop.de/E_1FEF76507EF4738DC1256E68003E64FC_4B98D8064B3A843400256CC3003DC55F.html) ... and just using a normal diesel engine? Lots.

There is a huge amount of savings in terms of fuel consumption as well as a much quieter generator as opposed to a chugging diesel. The emission differences are also significant. The downside is the size and weight of the battery banks needed and more money initially invested (which is eventually recouped through fuel savings). The DC Whispergen (http://www.whispergen.com/main/dcwhispergen/) is powered by a Stirling engine (http://www.whispergen.com/main/stirlingcycle/) that needs no oil, is almost completely silent... it operates unobtrusively with a noise level similar to a domestic air-conditioner.

Lightweight, compact and efficient, the WhisperGen converts over 90% of the fuel supplied into heat and electricity.

Then there's the Vetus option (http://www.vetus.com/elec_propulsion/hybrid_installation.cfm) - where electric propulsion is integrated into the diesel engine much like the hybrid cars one sees on the road today. The general idea is to use the diesel engine when you want the power and switch to electric propulsion when you want some peace and quiet. When motoring under diesel power, the electric motor, driven by the diesel engine, functions as a dynamo, charging the batteries for the next round of electric propulsion. It's a nifty system.

http://www.avanteyachts.com/joomla/images/vetus.gif (http://www.vetus.com/elec_propulsion/hybrid_installation.cfm)

This technology is more than viable... the US military is planning to shift over a significant proportion (http://mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=240) of their vehicles to hybrid technology in the future. The Humvee will be replaced by the more efficient Shadow RST-V - which is the US Marine Corps' first 4x4 hybrid-electric tactical vehicle.

Richard Kastelein (sales@avanteyachts.com)
Avante Yachts LTDA (http://www.avanteyachts.com/)

brian eiland

11-17-2005, 11:14 AM

Hello Richard,
Interesting summation. Wondered why you didn't post it under the much larger discussion at http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=676

I made a cross-reference here to tie the two subject threads together;
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=65621&postcount=94

Shame that both of these subject threads are discussed just under 'sailboats', as this is a power and sail boat subject

caribmon

11-17-2005, 12:26 PM

Thanks Brian... for the link.

I have reposted there

Cheers

Richard K.

www.avanteyachts.com

cyclops

11-17-2005, 05:11 PM

brian eiland

11-17-2005, 06:44 PM

What is the complete cost and eff. of any electric powered boat when you add in the pollution and cost of burning fuel at a powerplant to generate electricity, transmission losses and repairs, cleaning the plants gases. Most people do not add in the battery companies costs and pollution either. Each time energy is converted it loses some eff. Do a oil in ground to prop turning eff. study and anything electric loses out. Electric power is a very wastefull form of power. And I like electrics.
I think you would do well to read these two PDF's http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5 (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5) This DC technology in generation and usage promises a lot less in losses than you traditionally think of. And the 'battery' storage capacity does not have to be that great as the generator source may only need to be run at just the level required by the motors unlike AC systems in general.

cyclops

11-17-2005, 10:01 PM

Actually I went to the company web sites and read their statements . I came away with a MG system that weighed twice as much as a standard home MG. Regulating the voltage or frequency by controlling the engine speed, is caveman engineering. Very slow response compared to electronic. Does not lend itself to UPS. Uninterrupted Power Supply or Service. The present day control of multiple power sources mandates very high speed switching speeds in all parts of a complete system. -----------They are selling a 1920's DC power system back to us. Plus, they want you to buy special dc voltage common appliances, to get a sole source strangle hold on you. Wait for a part or the hole appliance? When low 120/240 vac are cost effective. You can pay for the overpriced system that is so oddball, a company tech is flown out to your boat.

hugo

11-18-2005, 05:23 AM

I enjoyed this lively discussion, and particularly caribmon's summary.
I think there might be one more option worth throwing into the pot: http://www.glacierbay.com/ossa_powerlite.asp
Glacier Bay have a lightweight system with a DC genset directly driving electric motors. (so you don't need a big, heavy and high maintenance battery bank)
We are planning to offer this as an option on the new SIG45 - a high performance cruiser racer catamaran. (www.lebreton-yachts.com)
One major benefit of a diesel electric system is that it obviates the need for an additional genset. Relative to twin diesels, a single genset plus two electric motors does not save much weight, if any. Relative to two diesels plus a genset, it saves a lot.
Hugo

mattotoole

12-06-2005, 09:07 PM

On small, under 40 ', the weight and waterproofing of the electronics is really a disaster due to saltwater burning up the drives and leaving you with no main drive. These drives require a on board electrican / mechanic to maintain.

Burning up what drives? How?

I know folks who have had Duffies over 20 years, without a lick of trouble. I can't say the same for diesel/gas powertrains. Anyone I know who has had one that long has had a major problem at some point, usually with the transmission.

mattotoole

12-06-2005, 09:19 PM

On small, under 40 ', the weight and waterproofing of the electronics is really a disaster due to saltwater burning up the drives and leaving you with no main drive. These drives require a on board electrican / mechanic to maintain.

I know folks who have had Duffies over 20 years, without a lick of trouble. I can't say the same for diesel/gas powertrains. Anyone I know who has had one that long has had a major problem at some point, usually with the transmission. One could probably replace a battery bank, and still come out ahead of a transmission overhaul.

mattotoole

12-06-2005, 09:50 PM

What is the complete cost and eff. of any electric powered boat when you add in the pollution and cost of burning fuel at a powerplant to generate electricity, transmission losses and repairs, cleaning the plants gases. Most people do not add in the battery companies costs and pollution either. Each time energy is converted it loses some eff. Do a oil in ground to prop turning eff. study and anything electric loses out. Electric power is a very wastefull form of power. And I like electrics.

This depends on where you are, and how your electricity is generated. If you live on the US east coast and get your electricity from coal, it may be dirtier than burning diesel directly -- assuming you have a newer diesel in good condition. But if you live on the west coast, your electricity comes from natural gas, nuclear, or hydroelectric sources, so it's cleaner than any diesel, even taking the usual 14% transmission losses into account.

--

brian eiland

12-31-2005, 12:53 PM

mattotoole

01-09-2006, 11:00 PM

An associate recently sent me this message....

On December 26th the first production catamaran, a 43ft Leopard to be
chartered in the BVIs by Moorings, with the Glacier Bay diesel electric
system left Cape Town for Miami. They hope to display it a the Miami
Boat show in February.

It has the same 2 x 35hp electric motors as Asanagi but only one of the
25kw gensets. Therefore the motors are only powered as 2 x 16hp motors.
Usually the 43ft Leopard is fitted with 2 x 30hp Yanmars with a top
speed of about 7.5kts. With the electric motors their top speed is about
8.2kts

What's the long range cruising speed with that single 25kW genset though? I assume the top speed given involves drawing from the batteries.

With that caveat, diesel electric makes especially good sense on big cats because it replaces two diesels with one, plus there's plenty of sail horsepower/speed for good regen.

brian eiland

01-09-2006, 11:47 PM

....With that caveat, diesel electric makes especially good sense on big cats because it replaces two diesels with one, plus there's plenty of sail horsepower/speed for good regen.

Maybe it replaces 3 diesel engines with one, the two propulsion engines and the aux generator engine:idea:

I was never happy with Solomon's emphasis on 'regeneration' with their electric wheel boat propulsion systems. In a car or motor vehicle where you need to apply braking, the regeneration of this potential lost energy makes sense. Putting the brakes on our vessels (extra drag) just doesn't make sense to me. Generally we are striving to get the best forward performance and economy from our vessel rather than inducing drag for what purpose?

brian eiland

02-09-2006, 08:28 PM

Glacier Bay, Inc.'s OSSA Powerlitetm propulsion motors win Sail Magazine's Freeman K. Pittman 2006 innovation award

Sail Magazine has announced the winners of the 2006 Freeman K. Pitman award for innovation in the sailing industry. OSSA Powerlite synchronous dc neodymium permanent magnet propulsion motors received an innovation award in the systems category.

OSSA Powerlite is a family of new diesel electric propulsion gensets, motors, and house load integrated power systems for yachts that provides a new standard for quiet, fuel economy, flexibility, and simplicity.
OSSA Powerlite electric propulsion motors turn a propeller independently of the speed of a diesel engine in a genset. This allows the prop and the engine to run at their most efficient speeds independently, and without the additional cost, weight, and friction of a transmission. The result is better performance and major fuel savings.

For more information and a look at the new website on Glacier Bay’s OSSA Powerlitetm system see:

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/

Sander Rave

02-10-2006, 06:57 AM

What is the complete cost and eff. of any electric powered boat when you add in the pollution and cost of burning fuel at a powerplant to generate electricity, transmission losses and repairs, cleaning the plants gases. Most people do not add in the battery companies costs and pollution either. Each time energy is converted it loses some eff. Do a oil in ground to prop turning eff. study and anything electric loses out. Electric power is a very wastefull form of power. And I like electrics.

Cyclops, what is your calculation based on? I have a calculation proving just the opposit. Maybe it's because of basic assumption, maybe it's the cost of electricity. in The netherlands electricity is relatively cheap, and fossil fuels are four times more expensive as in the US of oil.

My calculation is for a small boat and little power: 10 hp 4 stroke outboard, 11 hp diesel inboard and a 3.6kW electric propulsion and about 100 hours usage a year. That includes batteries.
Batteries are recycled in The Netherlands

I'm willing to learn, so please tell me what your calculation is based upon.
Regards,

brian eiland

02-10-2006, 03:42 PM

I just recently referenced Glacier Bay's updated site, but in particular I would draw your attention to this particular section in case you missed it:

"How diesel-electric propulsion saves fuel" (http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm)

...pretty honest evaluation without many 'inflated claims'. One quote, "As you will see in the exploration that follows, what diesel-electric propulsion technology does is to create the potential for fuel saving. It does not, in and of itself, automatically provide it."

Vega

02-10-2006, 05:39 PM

I think that the concept (diesel- electric) has a lot of potencial for cruising boats (for the ones that want to stay out of marinas). If you need a diesel and a generator, then the system has already advantages and the price is almost the same. The flexibility is huge, the consumption is 40% less, an electric motor lasts forever with no maintenance and the generator turns at slower speeds than a conventional motor, is more silent with less vibrations and has less maintenance.
The electric motor is a lot smaller than a conventional motor and that will permit a revolution in the interior set-up (interior design) of the boats, because you can put the generator in any place and not at the axis of the boat.
It will be a question of time before prices come down.
Malo and Nigel Calder are working on adapting it to Malo yachts and I believe that in one or two years Malo will ofer diesel-electric in their boats as an option.
I have seen the Panda Diesel-electric systems at Dusseldorf boat show and they look good;)

bonding

02-21-2006, 08:23 AM

Sander Rave

02-21-2006, 08:44 AM

Hard to tell as this argument is not stated. As set out earlier by Vega, the electromotor needs much less mainenance. It lasts longer. What kind of advice do you need? How much power do you need when fitting a diesel engine? Then it is possible to say something about the electric power needed and the size of your genset, type of wiring etc.

Amy Hu

02-22-2006, 06:11 AM

Would somebody introduce some boatdesigners to me, or kindly tell me from where we can find some orders of shipper and boats. We are shipping builder
in China, we have strong ability ti build all different kind of boats and shippers.Our new website will be on the internet very shortly. Don't hesittate to tell if you know how. I assure you any successful order introduced by you, you will get a very good reward.
Thanks for your earlier attention and reply.
Email:amyhu2000@yahoo.com

Amy Hu

02-22-2006, 06:16 AM

Would somebody introduce some boatdesigners to me, or kindly tell me from where we can find some orders of shipper and boats. We are shipping builder
in China, we have strong ability to build all different kind of boats and shippers.Our new website will be on the internet very shortly. Don't hesittate to tell me if you know how. I assure you that any successful order introduced by you, you will get a very good reward.
Thanks for your earlier attention and reply.
Amy Hu
Tel: 86-755-2642 2827 Fax: 86-755-2789 2189
Cell:86-137139 50418
Email:amyhu2000@yahoo.com amyhu2005@163.com

Vega

02-22-2006, 03:06 PM

I have ordered a sail boat. Most of the things can be customized. Since I will have a genset, I think it might be good to have the diesel electric system. Everyone says that it is a good system with a lot of advantages. But except cost, nobody gives any adverse comment. Boat yard tells me that since it is new in sailing boat, maintenance may be difficult and may not be as reliable as a diesel engine. Can anyone give me some advice?

What is the size of the sailboat?

If you were going to have a genset, then the price wouldn’t be too different.
I had a talk with an engineer from Panda at the Dusseldorf boat show, (they had there a large display of their system). It looks they have had some problems with the control of the motor but they think they have solved all the problems and that the system is fully operational.

In Lisbon boat show I have talked with the local guys from Panda about the system and they didn't know anything about it, except that Panda was working on it (in Germany).

I guess that if you live near Panda headquarters (Germany) and don’t sail far away from it, it would be alright. Otherwise it would be more intelligent to wait a couple of years till they get a reasonable network of service points (if the system prove to be a good system, as I believe). I believe that the youth problems, if any, would not be not in the motors, but in the connections in between (lot of electrical stuff evolved).

Of course, Panda is, I believe, the leading company in the development for relatively small systems ranging between 10kw and 75kw (75kw electric = 100kw Diesel in efficiency). Much bigger systems for large yachts are more widespread and the leading development is in the hands of other companies. About those I know very little.

If you want more information about the Panda Systems (including prices) you can give me your email and I will send it to you.

bonding

02-22-2006, 09:26 PM

Dear Sander Rave,

Because DE system is very new in small pleasure boats, I am hesitate to install one. I worry about its reliability. Normal diesel engine will have problems. But every mechanics can repair them. A genset may have problems. But even it does not work, it does not render your boat immobile. A diesel engine is rough enough to work even in big heeling angle in rough sea. But how about the genset in a DE system. Can it work at the same heeling angle as a normal diesel engine?
My boat will have a diesel engine and a genset. If a DE system has been tried in much bigger ships and very reliable, I say to myself why I should not install one when the price is not a lot more.
All I concern is reliability. All the readings show that it needs less maintenance than a normal system.
The boat builder, a German one, told me it might be too new and when something gets wrong, not many people can repair it. And may be very expensive too. Besides, the electric seems much more complicated than normal. While there is a principle of keeping everything simple at sea, it seems not a wise choice to have a complicated wiring system. The genset and the motor may be robust enough. Porblem may happen in the wiring side.
I will use my boat here in Hong Kong in the Far East where boating is not as popular as in Europe. Hence, maintenance knowhow is definitely not as advanced as in Europe.
Ultimately, as a boat owner, I do not want to buy a system and it does not work well. You know, you will be laughed at by your peer for making a stupid choice.

bonding

02-22-2006, 09:28 PM

Dear Vega,

My email is sales@bonding.com.hk. Thanks.

bonding

02-22-2006, 09:34 PM

The boat is a 32ft decksaloon. Engine is 29HP Volvo saildrive.

Sander Rave

02-23-2006, 03:34 AM

Dear Bonding,

I feel the argument in your consideration for keeping it simple in your side of the globe will stand. I get the feeling you already made the right decision by head, and now your heart neads to be persuaded you're not over conservative ;-)

I believe the genset functions just as wel as any diesel in rough seas, but wiring and electronic malfunction are two fields where you need very skilled people to stay out of trouble.

Be wise... if you feel you don't have the right support back home, where else do you want to get it?

Vega

02-23-2006, 05:57 AM

The boat is a 32ft decksaloon. Engine is 29HP Volvo saildrive.

It is a Sirius?

bonding

02-23-2006, 10:47 PM

Dear Vega,

You are right. How do you feel about it?

Vega

02-24-2006, 12:49 PM

Great little boat. Fact is that if you see only the interior of that boat you would never guess it is only a 32ft. Excelent interior design, very good craftmanship, and a relatively fast sailing boat too.

Nothing to do with the wauquiez (the wauquiez is now one of the Beneteau associated brands), They don't customise boats anymore, and it's now an industrial manufacter. Its quality is peraphs a little better than beneteau, but in my opinion it is not getting better, quite the opposite.

Sirius is a family business, the boats are made individually by people that have great pride in their boats and craftmanship. They are enthusiastic people that obviously enjoy what they are doing and looking at the final product I would say that the price is a fair one.

I am interested in knowing if they manage to completely satisfy you, and of course, when you get the boat, your personal impressions about its sailing charactheristics, compared with the wauquiez 40ds.

bonding

02-24-2006, 09:41 PM

Dear Vega,

Sirius does satify me. I love their workmanship very much. Almost all my wishes are fulfilled. Provided that you don't alter the constructional frame, everything is almost possible. When I first saw the Wauquiez, I was attracted by the roomy saloon and big suite behind. But when it came to really using it, I found a lot of space was only wastage. You simply don't need that much space. The Sirius is just like my dream boat. Small but big.

bonding

02-24-2006, 09:47 PM

Dear Sander Rave,

I talked with the Fischer Panda dealer in HK yesterday. They knew about this DE system and was willing to offer their assitance. From the talk with them, I feel my worry eased a bit. Three years ago, I had installation problem with the genset in my Wauquiez. It was not installed professionally in Wauquiez. There was a lot of vibration and very noisy. So I had to ask the then Panda agent to come. But he was a one man company and always not in HK. Now, I am reliefed that Panda finally has a proper agent.
Now, I really think I will have the DE system.

Vega

02-25-2006, 07:38 AM

Now, I really think I will have the DE system.

I hope that it will work alright for you, for us it will be a valuable first hand information on a very interessant and promising system. Please keep us informed on everything about it.;)

Grantman

02-26-2006, 03:03 PM

Nordhavn Yachts has built one diesel electric and is currently in the build processs of another: http://www.nordhavn.com/constr_con/diesel_electric.php4

Sander Rave

02-26-2006, 05:34 PM

In the latest issue of Proffesional boatbuilder there's a little posted article about pre's and cons of diesel electric through the eyes of a Solomon's technology director of engineering. He refered to an article in No. 97 (October/November 2005) About the Fisher Panda system. If you can't lay your hands on these articles, I am willing to scan them for you.

Grantman

02-26-2006, 05:49 PM

or just view those Professional Boatbuilder articles regarding Whisperprop and Solomon at proboat.com :

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/200602/?pm=1&z=fw&pvieww=1268&zin=214&u1=texterity&b=2&pg=12

and

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/200510/?pm=1&z=fw&pvieww=1268&zin=214&u1=texterity&b=2&pg=18

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/m_m.htm

Sander Rave

02-27-2006, 03:57 AM

Thanks, that safes me some scanning :-)

Vega

04-11-2006, 08:00 PM

Fisher Panda in agreement with Catalina Yacht is going to outfit a Catalina 44 with a Diesel electric motor ( 26 kw). After sea trials the boat is going to be presented at the St. Pete boat expo, this fall.

http://www.fischerpanda.com/html/agree.html

http://www.fischerpanda.de/doc/eng/news/4F40040C161FE784C125701A0041013F

HawkeyePierce33

09-03-2006, 12:44 PM

Here is another site that might be a little cheaper for the do-it-yourselfer. Has anyone tried one of these conversions? www.re-e-power.com

Raggi_Thor

09-03-2006, 05:03 PM

Re-e-power!
Very interesting and rather low cost, compared to the european (Denmark and Austria?) solutions probably mentioned before.

And in a sailboat, the batteries can be used as moveable ballast :-)

HawkeyePierce33

09-04-2006, 11:44 AM

Yes, and here in Canada we can buy adsorbed glass mat batteries at our national hardware store for about $105 for 35 A-h, and solar panels (if you look hard) for about $5/watt.

Vega

09-04-2006, 01:17 PM

Well, I have good news about the Diesel electric solution. I guess that everybody has understood that I consider it the best solution for a cruiser, even for a sailboat, or should I say a Motorsailor... cause it looks that today all true cruisers have some kind of motorsailing capability.

Anyway I would like to have one of those systems in my next boat but I want to avoid the inevitable problems and ningles that a new untried system will give.

To sort out those problems, nothing better than a mass-market product...and it happened already. One of the boat companies from the Beneteau group has produced a boat that comes standard with a Diesel-electric...and there is not even an option for a conventional engine...and the boat is not more expensive than the previous model with a conventional engine.

The boat wastes a lot less fuel, can work for hours only on the energy from the batteries...and it looks too good to be true.

Beneteau says that this is only the beginning of the conversion of all their boats to Diesel-electric.

I guess that it is only a question of time before Bavaria join forces with Fisher/Panda.

What boat am I talking about? Come on guys, I will let you have the pleasure to find it out:D

Vega

09-05-2006, 08:25 AM

Ok, the boat I am talking about is the new Lagoon 420, made by jeanneau (JTA), a member of Beneteau group. They have produced 260 Lagoons in 2006 (all models) and they have received already 60 commands for this model. If you command one now, you will have to wait one year for delivery…and the time for delivery is increasing rapidly because they didn’t expect so much interest in this new concept.

Here are some info about the boat and the propulsion and energy management system:

http://www.cata-lagoon.com/pdf/Lagoon420_brochure2006.pdf
http://www.catamarans.com/news/2006/05/Electric_Lagoon420.asp
http://searchwarp.com/swa61868.htm
http://www.sail-world.com/newstext/pda.cfm?Nid=27173&RequestTimeOut=180

For the ones who can read French, there is a big article and a boat test in the September edition of "Voiles et Voiliers".

FAST FRED

09-15-2006, 06:14 AM

Just wondering what the price would be to put 75 to 150 hp to a prop , compared with a std shaft and tranny.

FAST FRED

Vega

09-15-2006, 06:43 AM

Fred, I believe that the price has a lot to do with production numbers. If you have to customize each installation the price will be probably 2 times bigger, than the one you can offer if you made 100 standard systems.

FAST FRED

09-15-2006, 08:20 AM

"I believe that the price has a lot to do with production numbers."

Then the advantage would have to go to a hydraulic drive for an unconventional boat , and std tranny /shaft prop to a conventional boat.

Here is a new boat plan that might or might not ever get built , and work.

http://www.dsehybrid.com/

Interesting that they will build the engines foward with a WT bulkhead .

The only vessel I have seen with this engine location , Feng Shuey (sp?) was a large 60 ft or so motorsailor with a 6-71 in the bow , and 2 gen sets!
It had a mechanical windlass driven off the front of the DD , and at least 45 ft of shafting with pillow blocks and a std prop.

As sleeping foward in a sea way stinks , it looks like a great idea , esp since engines don't have to weigh 3000+ lbs for reasonable output. She had completed 2 circumnavigations.

FAST FRED

mattotoole

09-15-2006, 11:00 AM

I'm curious about the output of these regen systems (Solomon, etc.) under sail. How many amps at 6kt, for example?

bertho

09-15-2006, 11:24 AM

mattotoole,
i wondering to.. probably less +-1 knt for the sailing boat and ..somes amps. ?? as propeller are not desing to work on this side..forget foldable prop, but you will have noise from shaft, vibration on the rudder... I don't think we can have the butter, the money and the farmer..
cheers

Raggi_Thor

09-15-2006, 04:59 PM

..I don't think we can have the butter, the money and the farmer..
cheers

You mean we can't eat the cake and have it?

bertho

09-16-2006, 03:43 AM

raggi, yap! .. french sentence.. ( sometime we talk also about the wife of the farmer.!!.)
rgds

Raggi_Thor

09-16-2006, 04:14 AM

I would like to hear that one, about the wife :-)

Vega

09-16-2006, 08:46 AM

"I believe that the price has a lot to do with production numbers."

Then the advantage would have to go to a hydraulic drive for an unconventional boat , and std tranny /shaft prop to a conventional boat.

FAST FRED

Probably you are right. If I bought a cruising boat right now, I would still choose a conventional std tranny/shaf prop and a Genset, or I would buy that Lagoon, that has a Diesel-electric std system (with an adequate warranty, on all the system) and that is not really an option because I don't feel comfortable with cruising Cats.

But, looking at the huge interest that the hybrid Lagoon has raised between clients and given the Beneteau group interest in applying this system to all his range of cruising boats, this actual situation (regarding production numbers and reliability of the system) is going to change fast and in some few years (hopefully) this system will be the standard choice to all true cruising boats, at least to the ones that now need a Genset and an Engine.

The initial costs will not be superior and the advantages of the Diesel-electric in running and maintenance costs, not to mention the substantially increased flexibility in the possibilities of the interior design, will be overwhelming.

Vega

09-16-2006, 09:49 AM

:p :p :p
About that cake, I have my hopes in the announced intentions of making the Vendeé Globe (alone around the world without stopping) a "clean" race. That means that for energy they can only get it from renewable energies, and they are going to live and race in the boat for a long, long time.

There was an interesting article about it by Antoine Sézérat, published some months ago in "Voiles et Voiliers” and for the 2008 edition of that race, Yann Eliès has announced that he is going to run with a completely "clean" boat.

http://sports.voila.fr/fr/cmc/voile/200615/elies-ma-raison-de-vivre_91620.html

Completely clean boats are not, at least for the next edition, a rule, but there are a lot of competitors that think that’s the way it should be.

Most suggest that the rule should be that all boats should include an identical integrated generator (in the hull) working with water displacement.
They say that, if well done, the drag would be very small, and everybody would be in an identical situation, regarding boat’s competitiveness….

I don’t want to lose a knot of speed (not even half a kn), but losing 0.1 or 0.2 of a knot, without vibrations to have clean and inexpensive energy…I am all for it

Pericles

09-17-2006, 12:12 PM

Brian Eiland is quite right in his assessment of the OSSA Powerlight system. I set out part of an email from OSSA to me dated 12th September.

"Our initial projects have performed considerably better than predicted, however, we feel that there is a history of exaggerated claims regarding diesel electric performance and we are going to be very conservative without solid data from very similar projects. Very generally, we are seeing that around 65 to 70 percent of the diesel horsepower gives an electric powered boat similar performance. This is primarily due to the ability to fit a more efficient prop than can be turned by the diesel without overloading the engine at low speed. However, to match top speed, it is more prudent to fit an engine and generator to match the diesel power.

In the case of the eLeopard, even though the motors are 35 hp, the 25 kW generator is only 33 hp, so each motor can only supply 16.5 hp at full output (assuming they are both throttled equally) In spite of this, the eLeopard does almost 8.5 knots under power, almost a full knot faster than the twin 30 hp Yanmar powered version. We don't know the full reason for such a good showing yet, but I wonder if the props were not well optimized for the Yanmars. It is a sail boat, after all.

Kind regards,

N. Bruce Nelson.

This is my second posting at this site, having recommended OSSA to Bertho in Thailand. I came to this site today having enjoyed Brian Eiland's article about his ideas on sail plans for cats. Very thought provoking.

As it is my intention to begin building an epoxy/ply composite motor yacht next year, I have been investigating propulsion systems. As the proposed vessel's design is full planing, I am considering twin water jet drives turned by two OSSA 400 hp electric motors. At full power they will require 600 kilowatts at 800vdc. Three 200 kilowatt generators for propulsion and one 50 kilowatt generator for everything else all controlled via NMEA 2000 should fit the bill.

The article entitled Sunbird 73 explains the concept extremely well. http://www.ossapowerlite.com/customers/custom_metal_yachts/snowbird.htm

Pericles

brian eiland

09-17-2006, 09:55 PM

This is my second posting at this site, having recommended OSSA to Bertho in Thailand. I came to this site today having enjoyed Brian Eiland's article about his ideas on sail plans for cats. Very thought provoking.

As it is my intention to begin building an epoxy/ply composite motor yacht next year, I have been investigating propulsion systems. As the proposed vessel's design is full planing, I am considering twin water jet drives turned by two OSSA 400 hp electric motors. At full power they will require 600 kilowatts at 800vdc. Three 200 kilowatt generators for propulsion and one 50 kilowatt generator for everything else all controlled via NMEA 2000 should fit the bill.

The article entitled Sunbird 73 explains the concept extremely well. http://www.ossapowerlite.com/customers/custom_metal_yachts/snowbird.htmPericles
Thanks for the compliment on the rig Pericles

Are you located in Thailand. I just got back from a months visit, mostly pleasure, but I did a tour of 4 boatbuilders there in the Chonburi, Pattaya, Rayong area during my final week for a potential client.

Per your waterjet/jetdrive reference you might have a look at a couple of these discussions:

Jet Drive subjects
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11254 (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11254)

Jet Drive vs Prop
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/4470-jet-drive-vs-prop.html (http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/4470-jet-drive-vs-prop.html)

Rim-Driven Props
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/3961-rim-driven-propellers.html (http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/3961-rim-driven-propellers.html)

Pericles

09-18-2006, 04:57 AM

Hello Brian,

No, not Thailand. I live in the UK, presently in London, but will be moving to Lydd on Sea soon. http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=608500&y=120500&z=3&sv=lydd+on+sea&st=3&tl=Lydd-on-Sea,+Kent+[City/Town/Village]&searchp=newsearch.srf&mapp=newmap.srf

The area is called Romney Marsh and is situated at the SE corner of England. The prominent point is called Dungeness and gave its name to Dungeness, Washington and thus (probably) your version of edible crabs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeness

It's a place, unique in so many ways with its own community. http://www.dungeness.org.uk/

Thank you for the links. I was going to notify you about JetPac! On 24th July I received an email from Michael Moses informing me they hope to have all the CE Marking certificates in place by end of August, so they can sell in the EU. He also included US prices, so it's possible we shall be seeing the 200 hp diesel over here for around £14,000. Any more and there could be a problem. http://www.billhigham.co.uk/billhighammarine.htm currently offers the 200 hp Optimax at £8,999 and diesel for recreational craft will no longer be available at commercially taxed rates. A jump from 35 pence to 95 pence per litre is in the pipeline, so why buy diesel boats?

Back to water jet drives. Both Hamilton and Ultradrive state that their pumps do not overload engines and you and I understand why that is so. http://www.ultradynamics.com/sections/news/passenger.asp

A number of vessels are fitted with 4 waterjets to match service requirements. Two smaller jets are used for stooging around and when the call comes, the two other power units come on line to drive at max knots. The reasons I am considering the use of OSSA electric motors to drive the waterjets are better weight distribution increased cabin volume within the vessel, greater economy, quietness and cutting edge style. ;)

Pericles

GumbyTheBorg

09-20-2006, 04:02 PM

I think DE is the absolute future. I've been researching many aspects of DE systems as it pertains to the 50ft+ crowd and how various bleeding edge technologies (currently available) can be put together into a single system that would render DE systems that are twice as efficient as current offerings. The current plan (for ships 50ft+) is:

1. Get a 8 cylinder revetec engine converted to support diesel fuel. Supercharge it. This conversion is already underway (except for the supercharging, that one is on the house). The revetec engine is more than twice as mechanically efficient as a regular engine and offers insanely high torque (i.e. torque, not HP is what's important when it comes to driving electric generators).
2. Remove the poppet valves from the revetec engine and replace them with Coates spherical valves. This valve system is awesome and drains 90 to 95% less energy from an engine. It also requires no maintenance and is unlikely to even break down (compared to poppet valves). Also requires next to no lubrication and cooling.
3. At first, the use of a traditional electric generator will be required, but Siemens has started production of HTS (High Temperature Superconducting) generators. They currently offer a 4000 kV generator which would probably fit into 130ft+ ships. Obviously smaller HTS generators would be required for smaller ships. The efficiency of these generators is much greater than traditional generators at less than half the size and weight.
4. A set of capacitors would be used as a buffer between the electric drives and the electric generator. This is useful when it comes to constantly running the diesel engine at it's most efficient RPM (i.e. the sweet spot) when the prop RPM fluctuates.
5. Apart from requiring only a single engine to drive two props, a smaller secondary generator would be required as backup (can't just have ONE engine, what if it breaks down). Having a backup would allow the ship to limp to port if required.
6. I believe that using podded drives with the electrical motor INSIDE the hull of the ship (i.e. the pod is a glorified drive shaft) makes it easier to maintain and protect the electric engine. If the engine is inside the pod and something goes wrong, this means a trip to drydock is required. There would be one electric motor per pod (i.e. two pods). So if one electric engine breaks down, the ship can sail on using a single prop (i.e. sail to port if need be). The caveat is that this will increase vibration a little bit, but since the shaft is connected to a near zero vibration electric motor, then this should be very minimal indeed.
7. Using podded drives also means that no rudder is required. Beauty in simplicity. Podded drives offers the best possible maneoverability in all directions.
8. Any extra electric power generated would be used to power the ships electrical power system. So while cruising, the ship would only really need the main engine to be powered up. This greatly reduces noise levels as well as resonance vibrations that would occur between two main engines and the electric generator.

Since the engine and the actual props are not mechanically linked in any way, the engine can be placed/oriented pretty much anywhere on a boat. It can also be exceptionally well insonorized.

Oh did I forget to talk about the use of micro-bubble emitters on the hull in order to reduce water friction by up to 20%? Did I also mention that the revetec engine is much smaller than regular engines. All together, such a system using a retractable pod drive on a sailboat would be advantegeous.

What do you think about that? We think the entire system (including micro-bubble emmiters) will increase the cruising range of a vessel by almost 100% and reduce noice by up to 83%.

cheers,
GumbyTheBorg

Pericles

09-21-2006, 06:21 AM

GumbyTheBorg

09-21-2006, 04:37 PM

Gumpy,

Thanks for the info on the Revetec. What a machine! I went to Wikipedia and that got me here.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/stevewest/feature/Piston%20Broker.html

At first sight, it looks as if the engine could ALSO work on steam power. Where are these machines in use?

Pericles

Go to www.revetec.com to check it out. I don't remember seeing anything about running on steam, so who knows... I just don't think it would be efficient. As I said before, the engine could be made even more efficient if the poppet valves were replaced by spherical valves from Coates. The engine is remarkably small compared to similar engines and it provides astounding torque. Make it into a supercharged diesel and you got yourself a kick ass engine that insanely efficient.

BTW, for those wondering, NO I am not affiliated with Revetec or Coates in anyway, shape or form. I just like really cool technology.

cheers,
GumbyTheBorg

Pericles

09-21-2006, 06:34 PM

Hello Gumby,

Apologies. I mispelled your name on my last post. I have been to Revetec site and I hope they get their finance sorted.
I also had a look at the Coates site.

As for now, the OSSA Powerlite system is the one I am going for, because it is available with NMEA 2000 and I shall be starting the build next year. Please keep in touch.

Pericles

Guillermo

09-23-2006, 07:29 PM

...I was going to notify you about JetPac! On 24th July I received an email from Michael Moses informing me they hope to have all the CE Marking certificates in place by end of August, so they can sell in the EU. He also included US prices, so it's possible we shall be seeing the 200 hp diesel over here for around £14,000.
JetPac has already got CE marking for their 150 and 200 HP diesel units. I think they already have a distributor in the UK, but I don't remember the name now.
I see this concept's possible market in professional boating, not recreational, as price is a major disadvantage there. At least in Spain.
(£14.000 is around 21.000 Euros. I would rather point to a price in the range of 23.000 Euros+VAT for one 200 HP unit)

FAST FRED

09-27-2006, 05:45 AM

"JetPac has already got CE marking for their 150 and 200 HP diesel units."

However they refuse to publish thrust/gph/rpm so the suitability of their units for any specific application are a Huge gamble.

These might be a great answer for a proposed " container shippable" cruiser ,but no way of doing any math.

FAST FRED

Guillermo

09-28-2006, 12:38 AM

Yeap! They have to do something to improve their site and info offered on the system.

fcfc

12-12-2006, 09:57 AM

Of course, there are no miracle, only a better technology:) .

Both motorizations have a similar power at cruising speed. The electrical engine can deliver a constant and huge torque all the way. It is a much more efficient engine and therefore, for an equivalent “work” they say that this motorization is similar to the diesel one.

Fcfc, probably you would like to discuss it more, and I think it is an interesting matter, but please continue it at the sailboat diesel-electric thread. It makes more sense, and I will reply there. I am interested in this subject.

Regards

For powering via propellers, under is my own personnal understanding :

For a fixed pitch propeller, the power curve is nearly a cubic : If you want to turn x faster your propeller, you will need x * x more torque and hence x * x * x more power. You need 20 hp to turn your propeller at 500 rpm, you will need 160 hp to turn it at 1000 rpm. And at 1000 rpm, your engine will deliver 4 time the torque it delivered at 500 rpm. This is independant of the boat speed or anythinh else.

Said another way, if you run at 80% of the max RPM reacheable of your engine, you will need only 64% of the max rpm torque, and will use about 51% of the power used at max RPM.

That why propeller are sized for full speed full throttle. Once this point is met, all is OK. On most engines, rpm for maximum torque is lower than max rpm, and maximum torque is bigger than torque at max rpm.

So the story of better flatter, or anything else torque curve for electric engines are irrelevant.

What can really affect power is the way and condition it is measured. Power for pleasure craft engine quoted are frequently intermittent power, at flywheel. You have to take continuous shaft power if you want to compare to electric. Another point are accessories. I do not know how sea water pump for cooling, mechanical bilge pump or alternator power are taken for power figures. A 100A alternator steals around 4 hp from your engine. I do not think you put an alternator on an electric engine nor PTO.

The S4L2 industrial engine is quoted as 37 hp intermittent by mitshubishi http://www.diamonddiesels.co.uk/DOWNLOADS/s4ldd.pdf , 32.3 hp when used in a genset ( http://www.sdmo.com/files/pdf/FR/T27HK.pdf ), and 42 hp when marinized by westerbeke 44B http://www.westerbeke.com/brochures/DSLENG%2C%2044B%20Four%20%28Jan%2006%29%2Epdf , sole M44 or vetus M4.17. All this at the same maximum 3000 rpm for all engines. I think all this come from what accessories are taken (alternator, sea water, cooling fan, exhaust back pressure etc ...), where the power is taken, and how long you expect this power. Between 32 and 42 there is nearly 25% variation.

Now, for this 42 hp diesel engine, an electric engine 32 hp (24 Kw), may be a match. But anything lower is not true.
Either they do not have true same performance. Near hull speed, the last half knot is ultra expensive (around 30% more power for 5% more speed). One engine is 7.7 kts, the other is 8.2 and both are rounded to 8 by the marketing dept. Or one propeller/gearbox is mismatched. And nobody cares of it because overall performances are still considered acceptable, and nobody will recover engeenering costs.

Vega

12-12-2006, 12:24 PM

So the story of better flatter, or anything else torque curve for electric engines are irrelevant.

Hum, I can't remember and I have no time to look (too much work), but I know that they had said to me (the engineers from Panda) that the difference in efficiency is greater than what you say. I am almost sure it has to do with torque.
I know that the answer is on one of the Panda sites that I have posted in this thread.

Another difference between an electric and a diesel engine is that in an electric engine, the max speed is practically the cruising speed. In the case of the Lagoon 42, if I remember correctly, the cruising speed is 8.5k. It would be impossible, if you only consider the conversion of kW in HP.

Fcfc, if I have learned something on this forum about engines, is that the engineers that adapt the right power to a boat, or the several engine possibilities, know what they are doing. You can be pretty sure that the Lagoon 42 motorization is all right and I will bet that the cruising speed is not very different than the one you got with the two 40hp diesel engines.

When I have time I will take a better look at it. I have several tests of the Diesel-electric Lagoon 42 and I will see what they say about power and cruising speed.

marshmat

12-12-2006, 02:04 PM

Interesting to check up on Revetec again.... in the few months since I last looked them up, they've made incredible progress with that thing. I'm going to take some time later to go over the engineering in more detail, but I can readily see why the thing is getting so much coverage, it is a very, very promising concept. The fact that they can maintain this pace of development while losing as little cash as they are is pretty good indeed.

Pericles

12-13-2006, 03:19 AM

Matt,

Thanks for the timely reminder about Revetec. http://www.revetec.com/?q=latest-news

The X4 aero engine is astonishing, so incredibly compact, but imagine it fitted into a motorbike? There are plans to develop diesel versions and those would revolutionize recreational boating. I shall buy shares if and when they are available.

Pericles

Pericles

12-13-2006, 03:34 AM

Thanks to Guillermo I contacted the UK distributor, www.fleetwatermarine.com

Specifications:

MODEL: #002150AA
ENGINE: 200 HP diesel, turbo charged, intercooled, direct injected
DRIVE: 250 mm (approx. 10 inches) diameter stainless steel water jet
COUPLING: Toothed Kevlar® drive belt system
COOLING: Fresh water closed system w/stainless steel heat exchanger
INTERCOOLING: Seawater to air stainless steel intercooler
BOLLARD PULL: 1,200 lbs + static pull
BOAT DEAD RISE: Accommodates boat dead rise from 5 to 24 degrees
BUOYANCY: Depends on boat dead rise and weight (generally 250 to 500 lbs)
WIDTH: 40 inches (102 cm)
HEIGHT: 42 inches (107 cm)
LENGTH: 56 inches (145 cm) plus mounting brackets
DRY WEIGHT: 930 lbs (422 kg)
BATTERY: Heavy duty 12 VDC, minimum 850 marine amps, not included
ALTERNATOR: 85 Ampere, 12 VDC, included
SHELL: FRP, high density core in impact areas, foam core in other areas, closed cell foam injected for floatation
THROTTLE QUADRANT: Single lever, cable 33C, approx. 3 feet more than would be required for a typical outboard installation, included
SHIFT QUADRANT: Cable 43C, approx. 3 feet more than would be required for a typical outboard installation, included
ENGINE GAUGES: Complete set included, voltmeter, ignition switch, tachometer, manifold pressure, water temp, oil pressure, warning lights, buzzer
ELECTRICAL HARNESS: Included with instruments
BATTERY ISOLATOR: Included (Allows simultaneous charging of engine battery and accessory battery [accessory battery not included])
BATTERY SWITCH: Not Included
HELM: Use standard outboard with feedback, steering cables require approx. 3 feet more than a typical outboard installation, included (excludes steering wheel)
MOUNTING SYSTEM: Included
CE CERTIFICATION: Fully Certified to EC Sound & Emissions standards
Retail Price: £18,794 inc VAT
Special Offer Price: £14,995 inc VAT

NICHOLAS BENTLEY-BUCKLE
Fleetwater Marine Ltd
Ocean Quay
Belvidere Road
Southampton
England SO14 5QY

Tel +44 (0) 23 8023 5421
Fax +44 (0) 23 8023 5436

Nicholas kindly sent me a CD demonstrating a Zodiac RIB fitted with the 200 hp diesel Jetpac. The most impressive scene was the last, where the RIB is gently driven onto its trailer and then with a little thrust moved up to the bow yoke. That would be expensive with propellers.:eek: :( :o

Pericles

FAST FRED

12-13-2006, 05:49 AM

Thanks to Guillermo I contacted the UK distributor, www.fleetwatermarine.com

And the thrust per gal of fuel is?

FF

Pericles

12-13-2006, 09:06 AM

This from the CD.

2 persons , light gear. Cruising 25.5 mph 6 mpg. WOT 39.6 mph 3.53 mpg.
As above + 1000lbs. Cruising 22.3 mph 5.19 mpg. WOT 34.1 mpg 3.04 mpg.

Weight Time to plane
Stern Console
500lbs 500lbs 5 secs 34.1 mph

1000lbs 3 secs 32 mph

1000lbs 19 secs 37.1 mph

5 persons light gear, 2000lbs sandbags full tank estimated weight 3400lbs

WOT 29 mph 2.64 mph

Fuel consumption at no wake speed 0.3 gph WOT 11.2 mpg

Phone 386 - 676 - 7685 and request the CD.

Fred, not sure what you mean by "thrust per gallon". Bollard pull is 1200 lbs.

For me, the combined benefits of diesel fuel, lowish transom weight, very good control and improved safety, because of the absence of a chainsaw propeller, plus doing away with the complications of an inboard installation: all these points convinced me to go the JetPac route.

Pericles

marshmat

12-13-2006, 09:59 AM

Revetec Holdings Ltd. trades on the Newcastle Stock Exchange. http://www.newsx.com.au/prices_alpha.asp?nsxcode=&currentpage=1 They're a penny stock still, since they haven't turned a profit yet. As such it's a potentially risky investment, but the shares are out there.
(edit- man this thread is moving fast! this is in reply to Pericles in #75)

Vega

12-13-2006, 07:11 PM

Fcfc, I have found the relevant piece of information...not that I believe in all they say, but some things should be true ;)

As you can see, there is some common ground with the Lagoon, I mean in the choice of the motorization for the Jeanneau. The original diesel had 48hp and the electric engine only 16hp.

"Fischer Panda Whisperprop® System installed on a Jeanneau Espace 37 sailing yacht… She was re-engineered to operate electrically with a 14 kW Panda generator and a 12 kW (16 hp.) AZIPROP® Drive.

The original Perkins diesel engine had a rated output of 48 HP. With the new and more efficient electric drive motor (having only 16 hp. approx. 1/3 of the output of the original diesel engine), the newly equipped yacht could clearly maneuver with more power than before.

With a calm sea and no headwind, a drive/performance ratio of less than 0.5 kW per 1 ton displacement results in about 80% of the hull speed being achieved. The engine speed then could be reduced to a minimum according to the performance. Since the normal, mechanical boat transmission has only one ratio, the conventional diesel engine has to run at far too many RPM‘s in relation to its performance at the propeller.

The electric motor delivers up to 300% more thrust at lower revolutions.
As a result of the ideal torque curve from the electric motor, the DE drive is able to attain up to 300% more thrust when maneuvering at low speed than a conventional diesel engine/mechanical transmission system.

The Propeller speed is governed independently by the speed of the motor.
The speed of the Panda Whisper prop generator motor can indeed be freely adjusted to the required performance. The speed of the electro motor can be totally freely adjusted, irrespective of the speed of the motor. The performance of the diesel motor can be automatically tuned to the required drive performance. This is not possible in the case of a conventional drive; the diesel motor almost always runs too fast, since a mechanical gearbox on a boat does not have a gear change.

Up to 60% fuel is saved, if a diesel electric Whisper prop drive is used.
The total efficiency is better than a conventional drive as a result of its highly efficient component parts, the total efficiency of the electric system is without doubt better than that of a direct mechanical drive. "

Regards

marshmat

12-13-2006, 07:48 PM

I think FP's claims there might be just a bit on the optimistic side, but there are some good points.
An electric motor can be designed with its windings in virtually any configuration. If you want a perfectly flat torque curve, with constant maximum torque over the whole RPM range, you can do that. If you want constant power at any RPM, you can do that too. If you want virtually perfect efficiency, it's possible with enough care to get pretty darn close over a reasonable RPM range. You can balance the trade-offs in many more ways than you can with a combustion engine.

What's happening with that Whisperprop is that, as far as the prop's concerned, it's putting out more torque at lower speed than the diesel. Sure the diesel was 48hp... maximum. At idle speeds like you 'd use in the marina, it puts out- what, 12-15 hp? Compared to a 12 kW (around 16 hp) electric.... but that electric has a very high, very flat torque curve and is putting maximum torque on that prop at speeds where the diesel would be barely idling.

What you're doing is separating the functions of producing power, and turning the propeller. The electric can turn that prop at whatever speed you want, and whatever torque is needed to spin it at that speed. The diesel can run just hard enough to produce as much power as the electric is consuming- and so does not have to run at high RPM under low load, or low RPM under high load. It can always stay at the ideal RPM for the power that is needed without worrying about how fast the final drive is turning.

The key to making this work is that the individual components of the electric system- the generator, controller and motor- must be efficient enough that the extra losses in converting to electric energy then back to mechanical rotation, are less than the gains made by running the engine at its optimal RPM- and in many cases using a smaller engine as a result. Dedicated DE systems like the Fischer-Panda generally get this right; hack jobs thrown together from leftover industrial components rarely end up on the right side of that balance.

Vega

12-16-2006, 04:58 PM

Marsmat and Fcfc, more information about torque and eficency, regarding an electric engine:

Translated from the French

"With a fast diesel, typical on the pleasure boats, the propeller from the Lagoon turns between 1200 and 1700 RPM. The propeller has a 12cm diameter with a pitch of 13.
With an electrical engine, the propeller turns at 600 RPM, but has a diameter of 18cm with a pitch of 19.”

From the September edition of “Voiles and Voiliers”.

Note: I have seen the propeller, and it is really big. I believe they are talking about the ray, not the diameter of the propeller.

marshmat

12-16-2006, 06:12 PM

That could be a big part of the improvement in efficiency, Vega (I'm pretty sure you're right, those dimensions are radius x pitch)... the big slow prop is inherently a lot more effective, wasting less energy in the creation of useless turbulence (btw, for any Americans around.... those props are 9.5"x5" and 14"x7.5" respectively).

fcfc

12-17-2006, 11:44 AM

I have looked fisherpando web site. I think they are technically correct. If you accept to sail by 70% of hull speed, power is reduced by a factor 5.

The hullspeed of an oceanis is 7.9 kts. at 70%, it is 5.5 kts.

If your only use of engine is low speed maneuvring in a marina, and cruising at 80% hull speed (around 6 kts for a 40") when no wind. The technical arguments of fisher panda are perfectly valid.

But, if one day, you are bored, and prefer to go upwind cargo like, with full power, instead of tacking in a channel, you will in a few seconds understand the difference between a 40 hp diesel engine and a 10 hp electric engine.

The torque of an electric engine only have influence for acceleration : the time you use to reach the speed. It does not influence the final speed. Say you need 10 hp to go 5 kts. Power is force * speed. The speed is the same electric, or diesel. The force also : it is the drag of the hull. When you start at zero
speed, (idle for diesel, or zero speed for electric), the rotation acceleration of the propeller is governed by the difference of the torque absorbed by the propller (the same electric or diesel), and the torque available at the engine shaft. The electric engine can have nearly full torque at zero RPM. The diesel engine need to reach RPM of max torque to deliver max torque. So the electric engine will reach 5 kts before the diesel engine. That 's what fisher panda claims "better low speed maneuvring".

Now, if you change a parameter, say a better efficiency prop for the electric engine, Then why don't you use the same prop for the diesel engine ? There are a bunch of cars and trucks that have every imaginable gearbox. Why not a diesel powered boat ?

FAST FRED

12-17-2006, 01:49 PM

"I mean in the choice of the motorization for the Jeanneau. The original diesel had 48hp and the electric engine only 16hp.

The original Perkins diesel engine had a rated output of 48 HP. With the new and more efficient electric drive motor (having only 16 hp. approx. 1/3 of the output of the original diesel engine), the newly equipped yacht could clearly maneuver with more power than before."

Sorta an apples and oranges comparison. The diesel is ordinarily run at a very small percentage of rated power . The 16 hp if needed in diesel would only be 3/4 to 1 gph.

"With a calm sea and no headwind, a drive/performance ratio of less than 0.5 kW per 1 ton displacement results in about 80% of the hull speed being achieved. "

This is normal, most any boat will travel at unity (sq rt lwl) with about 1 hp per ton.

"The performance of the diesel motor can be automatically tuned to the required drive performance. This is not possible in the case of a conventional drive; the diesel motor almost always runs too fast, since a mechanical gearbox on a boat does not have a gear change."

Without a gear change most cruisers select a "cruising prop" not the one specked by the engine Mfg , but an owner selected unit to get the required thrust at the lowest reasonable engine speed.

Lots of cruisers with the usual oversized diesel set up to operate at Unity at 1200rpm, not as quiet as electric but really pleasant to be aboard.
And 1200rpm is power enough to power a 100+A alternator for house/hotel battery loads, a mechanical refrigeration unit and power a watermaker.

Up to 60% fuel is saved, if a diesel electric Whisper prop drive is used

FANTASTIC claim, the test proof is??

FF

Vega

12-17-2006, 03:12 PM

The new lagoon 420cat. It comes standard with electric engines and with no option for diesels.

It is said that this is only the beginning of a big revolution in the Beneteau Groupe. If this one is widely successful, we will have a lot of cruising Beneteaus running on electric engines.

They had sold more than a hundred boats by know. Next summer they will be everywhere, many doing charter work, certainly some in the Caribbean.

We will have soon plenty data to know how exaggerated are those claims.

Meanwhile the boat has been test sailed by independent Sail Magazines and they report a cruising velocity similar to the previous model with 2X40hp. That one has a max speed of 7.5K. The electric one has a max speed of 7.8K, but it can only maintain that speed for 1.3 hours, because the engines are running on the generator power +batteries power. Recharging the batteries and running only on the gen, the boat has a cruising speed of 7.0k.
Running at a very economical cruising speed (6.6K) the engine is only running at 60%.
The generator wastes 6.1L/H at full charge and about 2,5L/H at 65%.
We are talking of an 11T boat.
The speeds were measured with GPS.

They did not test sail the boat with bad weather, but the Guys from Lagoon say that the boat, against waves and 30K of wind can make 5K of speed, a value that is close to the speed in these conditions of the model with two 40hp engine.

I am following this with much interest (I think this is the future, for cruising boats). If anybody have bought one of these babies, I would love to hear a personal opinion.

fcfc

12-17-2006, 03:53 PM

There is a severe problem somewhere with the diesel engines of the lagoon 420.

My spreadsheet says that a 25000 lbs monohull :D , 41 ft lwl, should do 7.5 with 23 hp. And should go around 10 kts with 80 hp.

If the lagoon 420 cannot even reach hull speed (8.5 kts for a 41 ft lwl) with 7 hp / tonne, you have to explain the full story.

Vega

12-17-2006, 05:55 PM

My spreadsheet says that a 25000 lbs monohull :D , 41 ft lwl, should do 7.5 with 23 hp. And should go around 10 kts with 80 hp.

If the lagoon 420 cannot even reach hull speed (8.5 kts for a 41 ft lwl) with 7 hp / tonne, you have to explain the full story.

About your spreadsheet I don't know...about the rest, I am not exlpaining nothing, only posting the test results made by an independent French Magazine.

By the way, Lagoon says that the previous version of the boat with 2x40hp had a max speed of 7.5 and with 2x55hp a max speed of 8.5k. They say also that with those motorizations the boat wasted from 2 times more to 4 times more. They have been testing this boat in the last 5 years.

fcfc

12-18-2006, 03:19 AM

I am not contesting your figures. I am just saying that if you need 10 hp / ton to reach hull speed, you do not have a severe problem, but a catastrophical one in your propulsion design from an efficiency point of view.

And now, you are comparing an eletric setup with a diesel setup that have a catastrophical problem.

f-44SC

12-31-2006, 11:08 PM

Robert,

I recieved word from Fischer Pranda stateing that the diesel electric drive systems are not marketed or sold in the US. I was not given an explanation as to why.

I'm not sure if they are still doing there home work or not. Perhaps they are still treating it as a science project.

westsail42

01-01-2007, 10:19 AM

As for now, the OSSA Powerlite system is the one I am going for, because it is available with NMEA 2000 and I shall be starting the build next year. Please keep in touch.
Pericles

The OSSA Powerlite system seems to be the front runner for my buildout as well. Though it will be a couple years before we are ready for it.

I talked to them at this year's IBEX. They had their DC motors and generators on display. The 36 hp motor is quite small! The interesting thing is that they are promoting their system as a complete "power system". The system is designed to produce power on demand for your high load devices (propulsion motor, bow thruster, windlass, winches, inverters). You can take it as little or as far as you want. You dont need a big battery bank (which the Solomon System requires) but, you can add one to the system if you want silent running. After talking with the rep the system is quite flexible. You dont get this impression from reading their website.

I wish they had more (and updated) technical information on their website. It has been pretty stale most of the year.

westsail42

01-01-2007, 11:39 AM

Malo and Nigel Calder are working on adapting it to Malo yachts and I believe that in one or two years Malo will ofer diesel-electric in their boats as an option.

I talked to Mr. Calder at IBEX 2006. He said he is not yet conviced about the current D/E systems out there AT THIS TIME. His primary interest is reliability for an offshore boat. He said he is more optimistic about D/E HYBRIDs (electrically assisted diesel systems, like the VETUS product).

f-44SC

01-01-2007, 09:40 PM

I was informed that Fischer Panda is "stepping back" on their DE drive system. They state that it relates to the US markets' desire for more power than the European markets.

Somehow, I can believe that. Being one of a few Americans’ that realize that our culture is responsible for using 90% of the worlds resources while we only comprise 10% of the worlds population, perhaps I should feel guilty for choosing to burn fossil fuel to sleep in an air-conditioned cabin and sip frozen margaritas in the tropics.

westsail42

01-02-2007, 12:21 AM

I was informed that Fischer Panda is "stepping back" on their DE drive system. They state that it relates to the US markets' desire for more power than the European markets.

Or maybe they are rethinking their AC Motor strategy? Most of the electro-mech-heads I have talked to see this as a disadvantage.

Vega

01-02-2007, 07:05 AM

I think they are not interested in selling only a few systems.

Now that the Beneteau “groupe” is advancing with Diesel-electric and given the number of sales (Lagoon 420) and the huge European interest, I think they are much more interested to join forces with one of the German boat manufacturers, Hanse or Bavaria. They have a lot of money put on research and I believe they have a lot of experience and knowledge in what concerns relatively small DE systems, for sailing boats.

westsail42

01-06-2007, 10:04 AM

I came across this company this morning

http://www.ecyclemarine.com/

Small stuff, but interesting nonetheless.

They make electric replacement head units for yamaha outboards. They also make a small diesel/electric hybrid unit they claim can be used for propulsion.

brian eiland

01-06-2007, 11:13 AM

Or maybe they are rethinking their AC Motor strategy? Most of the electro-mech-heads I have talked to see this as a disadvantage.
I posted previously, "I think you would do well to read these two PDF's http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5 (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5) This DC technology in generation and usage promises a lot less in losses than you traditionally think of. And the 'battery' storage capacity does not have to be that great due to the generator source only needing to be run at just the level required by the electric propulsion motors, unlike AC systems in general."

I'm not an 'electro-head' either, but in my reading it does appear as though the real 'new' technology in this realm is with the DC systems. And Glacier Bay seemed to be further along the entire 'systems offering' than others.

I am following this with much interest (I think this is the future, for cruising boats). If anybody have bought one of these babies, I would love to hear a personal opinion.
I'm very interested as well Vega. I am in touch with a gentleman who installed a Glacier Bay system in his catamaran recently finished in Chile. Hope to get a report from him in the next several months.

Of very considerable interest to me is the combination of the Diesel/Electric technology with the Rim Drive Propellers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9432 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9432)

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10429 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10429)

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/3961-rim-driven-propellers.html (http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/3961-rim-driven-propellers.html)

I am working on a new design for my Motorsailing/Gamefishing vessel utilizing both of these technologies in combination

f-44SC

01-06-2007, 01:24 PM

westsail42

01-07-2007, 10:04 AM

I posted previously, "I think you would do well to read these two PDF's http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5 (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5) This DC technology in generation and usage promises a lot less in losses than you traditionally think of. And the 'battery' storage capacity does not have to be that great due to the generator source only needing to be run at just the level required by the electric propulsion motors, unlike AC systems in general."

Hey, no need to convince me. DC is the way to go, that was my point. I spent a lot of time with the OSSA rep about their system at last year's IBEX. For safety and efficiency, as an overall system, DC is the way to go. Neverminding the losses for rectifying signals, why would you put a big AC system on anything but a big power yacht? For smaller boats, DC makes sense as nearly everything can be run off of DC. To periodically run the few that cant (like microwave ovens) and good inverter works just fine.

I often wondered why few genset makers offered only AC gensets (until recently), I suppose it most likely came from the RV/Home/Construction markets that would never use DC. They just marinize them for the marine markets.

FAST FRED

01-09-2007, 06:33 AM

Vega

01-09-2007, 01:13 PM

The low buck cruisers have been using Ex reefer takeout 2 and 3 cyl Yanmars and Kubotas ($300-$500 or so) with either two $150, 150a new truck alternators , or a 300A 24v bus alternator ,for years.

With a good 3 or 4 stage voltage regulator , and a welding control to adjust the engine speed to minimum for the required amps , its an inexpensive method of charging batts. And quite efficent!

This setup is the BEST way to recharge a really large bat set.

Fred, I agree. Volvo-penta has a second alternator kit for their engines. I have one of those and it works well without taking much power from the engine.

But Diesel-electric is more than that, it's also about reducing fuel consumption till 50% and about increasing your autonomy to near the double, without having to carry extra and heavy fuel tanks.

Vega

01-09-2007, 01:25 PM

I believe I'll give the billionaires a little more time to fund the development work on the growing market of small diesel electric drive systems. Such systems could one day be ideal but much like the EV movement in cars these days, lacking governmental support, hopeful, innovative companies end up being forced to "skim off the top" to absorb immense R&D costs before they go out of business, liquidate and tell the onerous VC firms they are sorry.

Profit derived from the production and sale of such systems will eventually come once the German and US technologies are replicated in China. At that point, value will begin to match costs.

After receiving a quote for $94,000.00 for a 25kw system for my cat, I decided to go with twin yanmars and use the extra $80,000.00 to buy diesel fuel for the rest of my cruising life.

I agree about waiting, but I believe that the development costs will not be supported by millionaires, but by big boat manufacturers that are investing in development of new solutions that will give them an advantage.

Beneteau Group was the first, with the Lagoon 420. The price of the boat with a Diesel-Electric system is identical to the previous boat with diesel engines.

I Believe the Diesel-Electric system is more expensive and I think they are cutting away profits, hopping to have a head start that will give them a future advantage...and looking at the number of boats sold and the interest around the boat, I would say that it is a right move.

FAST FRED

01-10-2007, 05:42 AM

I agree about waiting, but I believe that the development costs will not be supported by millionaires, but by big boat manufacturers that are investing in development of new solutions that will give them an advantage.

IF there was an advantage this would be true, but there is NO advantage to these electric systems , and may never be.

A "solution" to any percieved diesel inefficency is a simple twin engine tranny.

A similar setup to the GM units that hooked 2 , 6-71 together for WWII

When speed is desired "the big" engine would be engaged.

For max efficiency at LRC a very much smaller , and harder working , so more efficient would be fired off.

CP prop would be required for max effect.

The BIG (Sultzer) diesels are up well over 50% efficient (60?) ,adding layers of complexity , inefficient batterys and chargers is not going to extend range a bit. A simple gear box only looses 2 or 3% at work, a far cry from charging a batset.

FF

Pericles

01-10-2007, 06:52 AM

Fred,

Your nation developed diesel/electric locomotives very successfully, but I reckon the first ones gave their supporters a few grey hairs. :D Some of the Destroyer Escorts of WW2 were steam turbine/electric and others were diesel/electrics. In all these examples, the concept was to provide electricity generating capacity which was/is run as efficiently as possible and to distribute that power to where it is needed, be it propulsion or services. The Steam turbine DEs developed 12.000 shp and the diesel /electric DEs produced 6.000 shp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer_escort
The DEs were "good enough" designs for their times. Two generators, two electric propulsion motors, 27 knots.

On a balance of probabilities, OSSA Powerlite will have success with their integrated and sophisticated DC system. By having multiples of different capacity DC generators, up to and including 200 kw, to come on line automatically as demand requires, even 40 footer motor yachts are candidates to be floating power stations. They may not win your approval, but it's really a case of horses for courses. There will be applications where higher capital cost will deliver long term gains due to lower running costs. A cost benefit analysis in each and every application is the way to go, not a blanket condemnation, as per your last posting.

Have a little charity, please.:)

Pericles

Vega

01-10-2007, 09:57 AM

Some of the Destroyer Escorts of WW2 were steam turbine/electric and others were diesel/electrics. ....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer_escort[/url]
The DEs were "good enough" designs for their times. Two generators, two electric propulsion motors, 27 knots.

There will be applications where higher capital cost will deliver long term gains due to lower running costs. A cost benefit analysis in each and every application is the way to go, not a blanket condemnation, as per your last posting.

I had no idea that the diesel-electric was that old.:D
About costs, a good idea of the profitability of the system will be given if big boat manufacturers like Beneteau or Bavaria start to invest heavily on it. They are the big ones in the business and they are big because they don't lose money.:p

Beneteau group had just lunched the first commercial experience, we will son know if they consider it rentable or not. If this one (Lagoon 42) remains an isolated case, probably the profitability will not be proved, but if they start to implement diesel-electric on their other brands, you can be pretty sure that the future is there.

Let's wait and see;)

Pericles

01-10-2007, 10:25 AM

Vega,

Earlier than WW2 P & O had the Strath sisters. http://www.ozhoo.net.au/~strathsisters/strathaird/index.htm

I returned to the UK in summer 1953 from Australia, having lived in NZ since 1949.:cool:

Pericles

FAST FRED

01-12-2007, 05:53 AM

"Your nation developed diesel/electric locomotives very successfully."

The PURPOSE of the diesel electric units was to create a method of STARTING a 2 mile long string of RR cars.

Steam makes max torque at 0 rpm and was IDEAL for RR service, but considered passe.

Yes, the new units will engage a number of engines , as the terrain requires , just as the Passenger boats fire off extra gen sets to accept hotel or propulsion loads.

Weather electric gains anything over a PROPERLY sized diesel is yet to be shown.

I believe hull design and light weight will do far more for fuel mileage today, than electric conversions .

In a 1/4 of a century , IF "room temp" superconducting motors are in the auto scrap yard , there might be an advantage to electric drive boats . But the battery's , and charging goodies will need their efficiency moved one or two decimal places too.

FF

Vega

02-21-2007, 02:00 PM

After the Lagoon 420, now it is the Moorings 430 that turn to Diesel-electric propulsion.

I guess that, like Beneteau, these Guys are very confident on what they are doing and about the reliability of the system. As everybody knows, the Moorings are charter boats with a heavy and casual use.

The Mooring 430 is a modified Robertson and Caine and the diesel-electric technology is from Glacier Bay.

They plan to extend this type of motorization to the bigger cats.

"The Moorings is proud to lead the way in testing and improving this technology to the point where such an eco-friendly propulsion system is available to the recreational boater and charter customer," commented Lex Raas, President of The Moorings.

The Moorings has been testing this technology for over a year and has brought to the market the first system to be proven in operation in a marine environment. The system is unique in that it does not utilize additional batteries for energy storage but instead combines a custom generator and propulsion unit, making it very environmentally friendly. The OSSA Powerlite propulsion units are driven by an OSSA Powerlite DC generator system by Glacier Bay, which also powers the boat systems, including powerful DC air conditioning units. No additional battery bank is required for propulsion storage, which avoids issues with battery life and disposal, and the addition of weight and reduction of usable space.
This yacht will be on display for the first time in the United States at the Strictly Sail Miami boat show, February 15-19, 2007, booth C39. This unique yacht is currently available for charter with The Moorings charter fleet in the British Virgin Islands and will be available for purchase in The Moorings Advantage Yacht Ownership Program in 2008.

http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journalid=49463576

http://www.forbes.com/businesswire/feeds/businesswire/2007/02/15/businesswire20070215006173r1.html

On the “Cruisers Forum” they are running an interesting thread about: “Electric and Diesel comparison” and as there are some folks that have diesel-electrics on their boats, it is an informed one.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/electric-and-diesel-comparison-6450-3.html

ryanonthebeach

03-12-2007, 05:33 AM

Fred
You are making the assumption that the motor will be run from a set of batteries. I agree that if you count the losses from a charger and a set of batteries efficiency is dismal and added weight is unacceptable. If however the motor is run directly from a variable speed generator it’s a different story. i.e. the batteries are only used for hotel load as they are now. The permanent magnet dc motors/generators efficiency if sized and powered correctly can be 90%+ (some claiming to be over 98%) and the controller at around 95%. This is without having to suspending them in liquid nitrogen ;)

I saw a claim that over ocean swells the reduced load can reduce the generator speed thereby saving fuel I think the claim was 10% on average but haven’t seen any comprehensive independent tests to confirm this. In fact none of these DE players seem to publish comprehensive independent tests under realistic conditions which is suspicious in my book.
As for the regenerative capabilities I’m working on the numbers to figure out if this is at all feasible with or without a controllable pitch prop. Yes I know dragging a prop slows the boat down but if you have sufficient wind and are pushing up against hull speed anyway it won’t make much difference. Light wind is of course a different story but then you can simply feather the CPP. The only reason I’m considering this is because I have a bit of a special case a center cockpit catamaran with a sail drive leg that can lift out of the water if desired.

There seems to be some validity their claims of fuel savings if compared to run of the mill yacht engine.
If this can be used to charge the house bank under sail it’s a small advantage but is most probably outweighed by the cost and complexity of a CPP.
Maintenance is where I can see a real advantage. I know there are a number of unfamiliar parts to this but electronics if built well should outlive the boat.
For the bigger players with fleets the componentized nature of this system provides significant advantages in logistics but we aren’t talking about them.

As for costs, there are only a few boutique players in this market at the moment so they charge what they will. You could build your own system for probably a 3rd of the price of the Solomon system using electric car parts.

brian eiland

03-12-2007, 07:37 AM

.... The only reason I’m considering this is because I have a bit of a special case a center cockpit catamaran with a sail drive leg that can lift out of the water if desired.
Do you presently have this vessel, or contemplating such?? I've written a few words on this idea before, so I would be interested in tracking such installations:

If I were looking to use my auxiliary engine in a strictly aux manner, rather than in a motor/sailing demand, I would seriously consider a single engine installation. This engine would be conveniently mounted in an enclosure on the cockpit deck and would belt drive a steerable out-drive leg that would be incorporated into the rear portion of the central nacelle structure. Maybe this rear nacelle might appear as on "Earthling's pod" (attached photo and/or www.earthling.co.nz/boating.htm (www.earthling.co.nz/boating.htm)). This saves the cost and weight of the second engine, trans, shafting, prop, etc, and opens up the rears of the hullsfor a nice master bath, or whatever.

Pericles

03-12-2007, 09:21 AM

Brian,

The Yellowfin system http://www.yellowfin.com/media_coverage.asp offers two VSD propellers driven by one motor. This Variable Surface Drive has a full blade feathering facility. If the single motor could be DC electric and a complete assembly itted into each hull, far less space would be used and two baths might be fitted.

The http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/generators/generators.htm generators are much more compact than conventional AC units.

For amusement, would large flippers be of any use? http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/models_mirage.html :D :D :D

Pericles

ryanonthebeach

03-12-2007, 01:16 PM

Brian

Wow, now that is a catamaran!
Mine is a considerably more modest beast but yes it’s an existing cat, quite an old girl. The installation I’m contemplating, been researching this for a number of months, is a Sillette sail drive leg that can be raised from the cockpit either manually or electrically to two different heights. 1. For beaching or shallow water to bring it above the draft. The prop for an electric installation would be larger than a standard installation so when motoring should be nice and deep, no cavitation plate in this case. 2. And the second level to bring it out of the water entirely. This is difficult to do with a diesel engine attached but with an electric motor it is more practical.
For power I’ve been looking at the LEM-200 motors with the new controller they have coming can be run at 92vdc 16Kw continuous. These motors seem to be limited by the available controllers currently 72vdc. I was looking at a few variable speed DC generators, but these are pricey, so I may build my own using a decent generator controller for polar for example. For raising I’m looking at something like the lenco hatch lifts. The tricky parts are working out what reduction ratio to use, weather regen is worth it and designing a circuit board to automate most of the functions.

It’s a great idea in theory, being able to have only one engine and to raise the prop out of the water in light air but weather this is practical is yet to be proven.

The alternatives as you mentioned seem wasteful. i.e. Hydraulics or twin engines.
I’ll let you know how it goes but I have quite a bit of research still left to do before the project starts. I should start in a few months.

kkolehma

04-04-2007, 04:42 AM

This is indeed a very interesting topic. It would seem to me that normal use case for sail boats has been forgotten. It would seem likely for me that traditional properly designed diesel would give as good as or equal fuel efficiency than DE.

But if I look my own sailing, most of the time I run the engine while in harbor (speed limit often 3kts) or in purpose of recharging batteries, cooling fridge or using windlass. How is the efficiency on that case (95% of the time)? It would seem logical that generator (AC or DC) would outperform diesel engine on that case.

Even when motoring, and usually that means calm conditions, I do not remember ever running diesel on high revs in order to get full hull speed. I usually opt for 70% of hull speed and 50% less noise. So for me DE would seem better option if I can get better fuel economy on those cases (and better yet quieter operation). In a 34ft boat space is not easily available for dedicated generator so that is also a strong argument.

It would be interesting to see objective numbers or plots of how well diesel engine transforms energy stored in the fuel to kinetic energy trough propeller. And compare that to generator turning fuel into electric energy and from there kinetic energy through motor and propeller. I am not expert, but that kind of experiment shouldn't be too difficult arrange in a tank or other controlled environment. Plot where Newton meters are in x axis and consumed fuel in y axis should give good comparison.

brian eiland

04-04-2007, 10:06 AM

...The installation I’m contemplating, been researching this for a number of months, is a Sillette sail drive leg that can be raised from the cockpit either manually or electrically to two different heights.
For raising I’m looking at something like the lenco hatch lifts.
Keep in mind the very significant thrust force generated by the prop, and the lever arm of this force depending on the length of your outdrive.

You are also driving the diesel torque thru 90 degree gears, so those gears must be very strong and close toleranced

For these reasons I prefer to consider a belt drive to avoid the 90 degree gears, and then the potential to rotate the drive leg about its engine driven sprocket, out of the water.

You might consider that Sillette had a number of problems in the past with there 'reverse lockdown'

Berserk

07-21-2007, 08:03 PM

It seems we shall all need more empirical information on the efficiency issue. Meanwhile, I’d like to keep focus on the chief purpose(s) of engines on a cruising, sailing yacht, and to me that seems to be self-reliance. A system such as that in the Lagoon 420 and 440 can recharge your propulsion system. This is not a percentage difference from diesel power, it is an absolute divide that cannot be bridged. I have been in more than one situation where diesel theatened to run out, bringing down not only my propulsion but my onboard navigation systems as well. I would pay a great deal to eliminate that possibility.

For a cruiser, it seems to me also a little off the mark to be concerned with maximum hull speed under power and similar issues. Sure, sailors motor more than they care to admit, but we still insist on sailpower being our main system. To defend that, we have clung to all sorts of solutions to minimise electrical power consumption, an Achilles heel of unassisted sailpower.

DE systems go a long way towards solving these dilemmas. I would compare them to the desalination plants. They too have their problems, they are if anything far more troublesome to maintain, but the prize – the prize is a form of self-reliance no other system can provide. To me, that matters.

I agree with some of you that answers to efficiency and speed will ultimately be found in build weights, sail systems and hull shapes. If we can merge that trend with the move to DE and also DC gensystems onboard, it points to more lightfooted vessels with less engine power and very little reliance on shore supply. In short, a crusing sailor’s dream.

Pericles

07-22-2007, 02:08 AM

Berserk,

On page 82 0f the latest edition of PBO you will find Nigel Calder's assessment of
Diesel Electric economics.

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20070809/

Regards,

Pericles

Berserk

07-22-2007, 07:00 AM

Thank you, Pericles. Calder's analysis is indeed thorough. I still want to point out that his comparison is power-to-power, i.e. strictly for non-sailing vessels. I look forward to his next instalment; at the end he foreshadows an article on the "other" advantages/efficiencies of DE.
Some of the variables for a sailing craft may be elusive and very hard to get a universal measure on. Many of us deploy "power-assisted" sailing quite often, i.e. motoring with a headsail or main during light wind or at unfavourable angles of attack. This would be a typical example of a diesel running at less than full throttle. In heavy seas we may add sail to steady the boat.
Another moving target is the "hotel" load. Consumption of electrical power in small yachts has crept up steadily since the 60's; bringing the cutover point for DE economics to ever smaller boats. But this too introduces design dilemmas: at least on non-US yachts, adding a genset is rarely favoured on yachts below 40ft, primarily for lack of space. We tend to go for ever larger "dynamos" on the main engine instead, not altogether kind to shafts and bearings, and leaving us with the dilemma of running the main engine in harbour just to keep up supply.
A factor that ought not to be swept under the carpet is the inefficiency of running multiple sources of supply. My boat has a remarkable number of diodes and circuit breakers and transformers and converters to deal with shore power, a windmill, solar and the main engine. Only recently we added diodes to compensate for voltage differentials between the windmill and the engine dynamo causing battery overcharging and voltage being pushed around the windmill circuit. Our main inverter is a power consumer of considerable concern. The more I could consolidate our system to "pure" DC, the less hardware and losses all around. Sadly, the combination of DC and DE has not been fully deployed in some of the test systems around, but I am sure this is the future.

brian eiland

07-29-2007, 11:32 PM

Brian, Wow, now that is a catamaran!
Here is another unusual one,...not quite as 'Galactic' as Earthling

It’s a great idea in theory, being able to have only one engine and to raise the prop out of the water in light air but weather this is practical is yet to be proven.
How about the retractable rim-driven prop unit I utilize here?..driven by DE

http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/ (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/)...scroll down

alexandros

02-26-2008, 06:19 PM

Really interesting topic indeed, although not very familiar with both yachting wolrd and engineering-propulsion issues.
I would like to ask some questions here.

It appears that individual companies manufacture electric generators (like Fischer Panda) to be combined with conventional diesel engines. I wonder if there is a marine engine manufacturer (like Volvo, CAT etc.) producing a whole system of DE propulsion system. Are there any issues of incompatibility?

Also, electric generators (in order to make a hybrid engine) is it possible to be combined with diesel engines ranging from 10bhp until 2000+ bhp? Hybrid propulsion is suitable only for relatively small boats or even mega-yachts?

Thanks a lot for any information you can provide

Berserk

02-26-2008, 08:04 PM

Hi alexandros, just briefly: To your last question: Indeed, very large commercial ships use hybrid power extensively, way ahead of the small craft; even the slightest fuel saving there amounts to $$$ per day.
For small craft I am only aware of the Panda and one US system, both used in experimental catamarans - see e.g. the Lagoon site. Bavaria is also experimenting. As far as I know, none of the major engine manufacturers have announced a complete hybrid system.

alexandros

02-27-2008, 03:08 AM

thank you Berserk.

I tried to find info on the official site of Bavaria but they mention nothing.

I assume DE technology is not mature yet and therefore not many boat owners or shipyards are willing to experiment with it?

Pericles

02-27-2008, 06:18 AM

The experiments at Bavaria are probably not finished yet, which is why they have not posted info. It's commercially sensitive material.

See these sites.

http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/electric_propulsion.html

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12

http://www.sillette.co.uk/elect_saildrives.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/

Enjoy the reading,

Pericles

alexandros

02-27-2008, 06:24 PM

Pericles,

Thank you for the links. Probably you are right about Bavaria's experiments with DE technology.

masalai

02-27-2008, 07:29 PM

Pericles, I also appreciate your efforts in posting these links. I have recorded same for my future needs/use (hope I do not loose them?:D)

Steve Martin

02-28-2008, 09:51 AM

African Cats is in the final stages of testing their Green Motion hybrid system. You can read some documents at http://www.africancats.com/ and http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f126/green-motion-retractable-propulsion-generation-10261.html

masalai

02-28-2008, 03:46 PM

Steve, Thanks for the web-sites, Quite interesting, pity it is mostly advertising hype, with minimal hard technology analysis (numbers & $)

I assume this is because of a desire to hold on to any competitive technical leadership as long as possible.

- a sad state of affairs, for with global co-operative development the product would penetrate market acceptance quicker & consumers would also benefit:D

alexandros

03-04-2008, 05:15 PM

Alongside the Fischer-Panda company producing electric engines for Hybrid systems i also found Vetus (www.vetus.nl) offering a complete solution for hybrid propulsion.
In their detailed on-line catalogue though they mention that the a 6m. GRP boat may sail for 6 hours in a speed of 4.8 knots. My question is whether such engine can be used for much bigger boats (60-75 ft.). Probably not for cruising but i find hybrid engines ideal for the manoeuvres inside a marina (in terms of waste, oil and noise-polution).

masalai

03-04-2008, 05:34 PM

alexandros, Just add lots & think of it as multiple "bow thrusters" but not only in the bows:D, Thanks for the website

Pericles

03-05-2008, 04:49 AM

alexandros,

You mentioned the Vetus hybrid drive for propelling a large vessel in a marina. You would still need to run the diesel at some stage. :( :( If your 60-70 footer were a 4th generation cruising catamaran, then there are better alternatives. See article.

http://www.john-shuttleworth.com/Articles/NESTalk.html

The first point to note with these catamarans is that 20 knots cruising under sail is a reality. The second point is that Asmomarine electric motors regenerate electricity at 6 knots. The third point is that two Thoosa 17000 motors mounted on Sillette saildrives and fitted with Brunton Autoprops, are a straight replacement for two 60 hp diesel engines and will easily move the catamaran at 10+ knots. Under sail, when the propellers freewheel with minimum drag in the water, the batteries are charged.

The electricity used in 30 minutes manoeuvring in harbour is replaced in around the same length of time whilst sailing around 8 knots. With sufficient battery capacity, it's possible to start thinking of doing away with all diesel power.

This from Asmomarine:

"For the THOOSA 13000 and THOOSA 17000 systems, the motor controllers are complete different from the nom. 48V controllers. The cut-off-voltage will be about 2,45V/cell, so for a 96V battery bank, the cut-off-voltage will be 117,6V, if it’s an open traction, and if sealed traction the limit shall be adjusted to 2,35V/cell = 112,8V. Please note that the charge regime in regeneration mode is not a 3-step function, so we recommend you to take care of maintaining the battery bank once per month by a 3-step shore power charger to obtain maximum life cycle of the battery bank. When you are sailing there will be a lot of smaller charge/discharge functions and this can slower the battery over time. That’s why you need to maintain with shore power charger."

Another reply:

"Battery manufacturers worldwide have specified on each battery type, how this shall be maintained and we recommend to follow this. Our AMC chargers have 15 different charge regimes build in, and by a small switch it’s possible to adjust the charge voltage settings to most common used batteries. In cases where no one of the settings match the chosen battery type, you can send us the data sheet of the battery and we will change the software in the charger, so it follows the battery manufacturers advice.

The AMC chargers have only AC input, not DC. If you are far from shore most of the time, I suggest that we get produced a regulator with 3-step charger function, max. 1500W. For your information I have recently offered a 72V/1500W solar regulator to a boat builder in Portugal. The price for this model is € 1.260,00 excl.VAT and excl. freight cost. The regulators are custom designed and can be produced in 12V, 24V, 36V, 48V, 72V, and 96V."

------------------------------------------------------

Better yet, battery technology has improved greatly. See page 104 at http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ to read Nigel Calder's article about these advances and his ideas about creating the hybrid DC boat. It's because his new vessel is NOT as fast as a catamaran, that he continues to require a diesel generator for house needs etc. :D

Fast cruising catamarans give their owners the opportunity to skip the development stage of hybrid technology and leap straight to a fully independent DC boat, even with AGM batteries. However, the new types of batteries only make the choice simpler and easier. No weighty diesel engines, no DE generator, no diesel fuel tanks, no expensive servicing, no fuel bills, no smells, no noise, easier operation and the shorter boat build time will save money as well.

I have much more data and some costings from Asmomarine for those who would like them. The sums make good financial sense even at first cost, let alone over 10 years. :P :P

Regards,

Pericles

alexandros

03-05-2008, 06:07 AM

Pericles,

Thanks a lot for the extensive reply to my question. Really appreciated.

Unfortunately, the boat i am thinking of applying such technology is a wooden monohull boat.
As for the Thoosa 1700 (suitable for boats 40-50ft.) you think it could work for a wooden 60-75ft boat? It is strange because i have read in various web-sites that military boats as well big cruise vessels use DE systems. However it appears that there is a gap between small pleasure boats and huge commercial boats. I found that SIEMENS is also working into this direction :

http://www.industry.siemens.com/meta/en/products_solutions/pma_detail.htm?id=1193&family=SISHIP&PIdent=1028&SIdent=1071

but i have to contact them to find out more information on this.

I do not have the appropriate tech & scientific knowledge to grasp all the details and particular details of every solution so everything becomes more perplexed.

Pericles

03-06-2008, 06:26 AM

http://boatdesign.net/cgi-bin/bdn/search.pl?query=diesel+electric&Submit.x=49&Submit.y=4&type=keyword&bool=and

Pericles

masalai

03-06-2008, 06:44 PM

Thanks for the posting Pericles, The OSSA power source looks like either a Mercedes or Lombardini and they come in dry around 70kg, yet they talk in terms of 248kg for the genset... 60kw direct diesel drive is around that....? I like the Merc diesel and the Lombardini for their fuel efficiency & light weight - could be hauled ashore to power other things on the islands... (making coconut Oil fuel:D)

Any idea what the engine/generator without the box weigh & cost? (25kw OSSA)

I liked the "African Cats" green motion because of the lift-able screws assembly and the ability to take larger dia efficient fixed design screws (feathering is additional things to break & lifting out is easier.)... - their 'retractable drive system' that swings up... under sail I can lower one or both to generate power... Time is a little on my side, and I am hoping that reliability and prices will be more attractive soon...

Pericles

03-07-2008, 01:15 AM

Masa,

Far be it for me to, um, er, pour cold water on your aspirations, but where do you get a weight of around 248 kgs for a 60 Kw direct drive Mercedes/Cummins diesel. Nearest I could find is this at 700 lbs (318 kgs) for 48 Kw.

http://www.tadiesels.com/cu-B3.3M.html

The OSSA 25 Kw generator is completely self contained. Drop it in and couple up cooling, fuel lines and cables as far as I can see and at 65 dbAs, it's very quiet. I don't think you can have it without the box. :D

I am getting UK prices and weights for 3000 Amp Hours of Odyssey batteries for another project. I come back to you on that.

All the best,

Pericles

masalai

03-07-2008, 03:09 AM

Oops, I was not really clear in what I said.... - - Lombardini 3 cyl 1003cc diesel comes in at under 70kg dry & bare engine... - - The Merc 1400cc diesel can produce 60 Kw continuous for aircraft use and weighs 70kg (out of the "smart" car series)...

I didn't mention the brand but, Kubota 5 cyl marinised bare (no gearbox) at around 250 kg - - It gives about 60kw, but I think that is "brief" - cant find my docs... The Yanmar 4JH3-HTE at 67.7KW, dry weight without gearbox 228 Kg... Volkswagen TDI 100-5 is 74Kw & 255Kg dry without gearbox...

Mercedes info at http://www.dieselthrust.de/ and also at http://www.ecofly.de/Prices_order.htm and you will find a downloadable pdf with prices in Euro & some performance info, also it can be "chipped" for something like 20% more power...:D:D

The OSSA engine looks like it could be based on the Lombardini?, & I do not want the box and other stuff, just the generator (DC) and attendant controls... - - weight & price??? - - Weight is an issue with me...

On the "African Cat", in the "press release" section download on, "retractable drive system", I am quite taken by the small size and that it can be swung up out of the water when sailing, or to clean/maintain/repair, or to keep away from barnacle & other growth...

Jeees It takes sooo long to download using my "snail-mail" paced broadband.... I like the cummins. They are the only ones to not "deny" the use of coconut oil as fuel for "Pelena Express" - - more info here - - http://www.pelenaexpress.com/

The battery info would be helpful and useful as comparative options, Thanks...

Pericles

03-07-2008, 07:04 PM

More soon. Not feeling too good tonight. A bad cold is painful all over.

http://www.hawker-odyssey.co.uk/batt-index.html

Regards,

Perry

westsail42

03-11-2008, 12:31 AM

Anyone experienced an EMotion Hybrids (http://www.electricmarinepropulsion.org/Index.html)Installation?

Looks like they are doing Calders new Malo.

masalai

03-11-2008, 12:45 AM

Thanks westsail42, have bookmarked the site for reference...

Pericles

03-12-2008, 04:57 AM

African Cats seem to have all bases covered in regard to powering cruising catamarans. http://www.africancats.com/

They are using Lithium ion batteries.
http://www.africancats.com/resources/documents/PRESS435_LION_ENG15062006.pdf

westsail42,

Thanks for the link.

Regards,

Pericles

mp459

05-28-2008, 05:36 PM

Wow, this is quite a thread. I'm interested in repowering my current boat in the next 3 years or so, and am looking quite a bit into DE. The only thing missing here is pricing–that 98k figure is rather high. But apparently not too–just got a reply back from Glacier Bay:
First, they didn't sound too optimistic:
" I am not sure that what we have at the moment will be ideal for your boat. We have done a retrofit of a Nauticat 43 motor sailer that would be the closest similar project."
Second, price:
"The list price for the motor, controllers, power distribution box, and helm station would be $$49,231."
Yipes! 50k. So let's say a direct-drive repower costs 15k. Add another 5k+ for a generator (more on this later), and some electronics etc…lets say you get by with 25k. That's twice the price.

But more to other stuff…most of the comparisons I've seen extol or criticize DE systems compared to direct-drive systems. I'm on a 38ft monohull sailboat, adn use the engine for propulsion about 10% of the total underway time in inland /coastal sailing (say 2 hours a day to motor in/out of a marina out of a 10 - 48 hour trip, without going into specifics I'll posit this is on average 10%). On the other hand, I need to charge the batteries regularly—I don't have much space for a separate generator nor oversize battery bank. And we all agree that using the propulsion engine for battery charging is less than ideal. This said, the appeal of DE systems to me is not the energy savings while powering/motorsailing. The appeal is that I replace my propulsion engine with a generator that takes care of the electrical loads, battery charging, and allows me to anchor out more frequently. The fact that I can run an electric motor to propel my vessel is in some ways a secondary concern: True, I would not replace my propulsion engine with a generator and go sail-only; but if a generator can produce enough power to propel my vessel, and if the system is efficient and silent enough to allow me to have a smaller battery bank, then I see some definite advantages.

On the other hand, are those advantages worth the extra $25k? Additionally, I'd like to attach some type of generator to a freewheeling prop to generate some power while sailing. No answer from other Glacier Bay nor whisperprop/fischer panda on this. (No reply from whisper prop period.)

Interestingly, it seems that most DE systems are installed in catamarans. Perhaps it makes sense here because you can get rid of two diesels. But the emphasis even here seems to be on propulsion.

Last note, although a good number of people I respect seem to prefer the hybrid solution/parallel solution (motor can be powered from hundred-volt battery bank), it seems to me this solution adds a lot of weight to the boat. On a new installation where you can use the batteries as ballast, that may make sense. But I haven't found the motor+generator in DE to weigh significantly less than engine+transmission (in direct drive) to offset the extra battery weight: 100Ah batteries @144V weigh in at over 800lbs. (Sure you can get that weight down to about 50-100lb if you use smaller batteries, but then there's not enough capacity to drive the motor under battery power, so the motor has to start up anyway.) Moreover, the freewheeling prop in these configurations serves to recharge the motor batteries, not the house bank. And since I've given up on carrying an extra half-ton of batteries and therefore resigned to propelling with the engine running, I want to minimize engine time precisely when I'm not motoring.

Am I completely off-base here? Any comments?

Again, I'm amazed by this thread. Thank you all for your insight, and I'll keep posting updates as I find them. I've already contacted Glacier Bay (and have some diagrams from them if anyone is interested), and F. Panda. I think I'll try the EMotion guys as well.

Best,
mickey

westsail42

05-28-2008, 07:58 PM

Am I completely off-base here? Any comments?

Mickey,

No, you are right on target with all of reasoning as far as I am concerned. All valid issues you raise.

I think a lot of it depends on whay type of boating you do. For example, take the issue of battery weight. If you dont mind running a generator (GB) and are concerned about weight (144v bank systems) you can use small batteries if you are so concerned about weight.

If you are more of a cruiser and less concerned about performance, you can go big 8D 144V bank to accomodate alternate input sources (wind/solar/whatever).

It seems once of the niceties of D/E is that there is a degree of flexibility in the configuration when dealing with a new build/build out. Not so much on a retrofit.

mp459

05-28-2008, 08:35 PM

Thanks, Robert . Sometimes I feel like either I'm not getting the whole world, or the whole world is not getting me. Had a chat with GB just a while ago. The guy said, "If you're happy with 6-6.5 kts, then we have a good fit". 6.5kt? I get 5.5 now! He also said that they're working on a 240V DC bank and power 'regeneration' stuff. Now if the price goes down a bit…although I doubt I'll be installing for another year or two so there's plenty to happen between now and then. He also mentioned that it'd be possible to drive a separate 12V dynamo geared to the prop shaft, which is my plan for direct-drive anyway.

Nothing else new and exciting to report from them. Still no word from F-P or anyone else. I am excited about the new battery technologies though. Any tests yet on discharge rates on these? If we can maintain battery life while increasing max discharge they're a no-brainer.

Out of curiosity, Robert, how far along are you on your Westsail? I've perused your blog but haven't dug too deeply. I sail-while-i-work-on (or work-on-while-i-sail) a 1980 CR38. Not quite from bare hull, but seems I've had to get ot bare hull and back in a few areas…and had to redo the whole deck. Rebuilt the old perkins to give DE a few more years to mature.

Cheers,
mickey

Pericles

05-29-2008, 12:50 AM

Mickey,

Check the Nigel Calder articles in Professional Boatbuilder.

http://www.proboat.com/digital_issues.html

Page 74 Issue 112

Page 104 Issue 111

Page 140 Issue 109

They should help.

Regards,

Perry

mp459

05-29-2008, 01:30 AM

Perry,
many thanks for summarizing the issues here. I have seen you and others post them earlier in the thread and have read what I can find. I have a lot of respect for Nigel Calder so I take what the articles say quite seriously. As expected, these articles were very informative, indeed; but I must agree with an earlier poster: most of what's out there seems to focus on the DE vs. Direct-drive comparison. The way I see it, I use my propulsion engine for battery charging more than propulsion so I prefer to look at the entire power consumption equation. I liked the 3-part series in electric propulsion, but even that focused on traditional vs DE for propulsion efficiency (the third article mentioned additional benefits, but the efficiency part of it still focused on propelling the boat).

Bottom line as I see it: A DE system is the way to go–but the question is when? I think the list price on a DE system is still too expensive compared to traditional systems…but it's not so far off that if retail is reasonably below list the extra money wouldn't be worth the price. further, with production boats getting on board, I would expect the price to drop in the next year or two, which is why I am reconsidering DE now for a possible installation in the next year or two. When I first looked into it, about 2 years ago, the product was not quite there yet.

Thanks again for all your input in this thread!

Y

masalai

05-29-2008, 01:58 AM

mp459,
You may like to keep an eye on these linked threads which we set up to keep tabs of sites and developments here is one http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=205049 - all the threads have cross-links at post #1....

mp459

05-29-2008, 02:01 AM

Thanks, Masalai. That's one thing I still need to do: subscribe to all the linked threads. i've read through some of them, but certainly not all.

masalai

05-29-2008, 02:05 AM

Because the first page/post is cross-linked I only bookmark one, and check all through the links periodically....I may hive off an extra one if developments occur in solar panels (University of Queensland media release)... there are 6 or 7 threads...

westsail42

05-29-2008, 12:30 PM

Out of curiosity, Robert, how far along are you on your Westsail? I've perused your blog but haven't dug too deeply.

Slowly but surely as they say. This year we are doing the "rough-in" of bulkheads and dividers. Also mocking up cabinetry to get a feel for proportions. With the detail to work to start next year. The big $$ thing is we hope to have the rudder and steering installed by the end of year.

Things are slow now as we prepare our 28 foot sloop for a summer trip.

westsail42

05-29-2008, 12:33 PM

Bottom line as I see it: A DE system is the way to go–but the question is when? I think the list price on a DE system is still too expensive compared to traditional systems…but it's not so far off that if retail is reasonably below list the extra money wouldn't be worth the price. further, with production boats getting on board, I would expect the price to drop in the next year or two, which is why I am reconsidering DE now for a possible installation in the next year or two. When I first looked into it, about 2 years ago, the product was not quite there yet.

Y

I see things the same way. One of the reasons we are not in a rush to build out the Westsail. We havent decided upon D/E, but I sure would like it to be a "viable candidate" when the time to install propulsion comes.

mp459

05-29-2008, 01:48 PM

Good to hear you have a sailable boat while you're working on it. When I first started taking major things apart on Bahia, a wise soul (not to be compared with a wise guy :) told me to get projects small enough that I can go sailing in between. Keeps the sanity that way!

P.S. Masalai, thanks for the link to your 'summary' thread. Bookmarked that as well.

mp459

05-29-2008, 03:29 PM

I see things the same way. One of the reasons we are not in a rush to build out the Westsail. We havent decided upon D/E, but I sure would like it to be a "viable candidate" when the time to install propulsion comes.

On a slightly different tack, one of the things I haven't been able to figure out is two different ideologies in the power requirements. Sure, I'll agree that the propulsion engines we use now are not used at peak performance most of the time, but we fit a 50-horse engine because of the 5% of the time when we might actually need all that power, to free from a soft grounding, for example, or in rough weather. Whether either of these is good practice or not is irrelevant, I'll just posit that this is common practice.

Nigel Calder and others claim that a lot of the efficiencies claimed by DE systems are gained by (sometimes "radical") power reduction in the propulsion engine as well as the generator. He says a better comparison would be a DE setup vs. a reduced-power conventional installation.

On the other hand, DE evangelists say that you don't need the extra power because you have a more efficient power transfer, and besides it's the extra torque you need, not the horsepower.

Even so, both parties seem to agree that there is not enough loss with this "radical power reduction" to make any significant difference in powering, even in seaway and headwinds. However I have heard nobody advocate for reduced power in a conventional engine as a means of gaining "efficiency".

So some math: say I have a 50hp engine which has about 30% loss to the shaft…that's about 35hp/26kW to the shaft. This is about the DE generator produces in a matched setup, as far as I've seen. However, the electric motor paired with this is usually about 40% smaller, 16kW/21hp. (And again, no one has advocated that I replace my 50hp with a 30hp conventional-drive engine). Most answers to this have something to do with torque: the 16kW motor provides as much torque as the 50hp diesel.

Based on hp = torque x rpm / 5252 (from Emotion), a 50 hp @ 3500RPM diesel can provide 75lb.ft. The EMotion guys claim their 16kw can provide 120lb.ft. In order for a similar diesel (max hp@3500rpm) to provide 120lb.ft you'd have to get an 80hp diesel. So, assuming Torque is the Answer, here is the 40% less power. If your engine provides max hp at 4000 rpm these numbers get even better in support of DE claims.

Glacier Bay paired this engine with a 26kW (35hp) motor, producing 102lb.ft@1800 rpm, and we can make similar claims.

But if it's that simple, then how can someone claim that a true efficiency comparison should be between DE and a similarly-sized conventional-drive systems, when the conventional system would not have the necessary torque to power the boat?

masalai

05-29-2008, 05:09 PM

From my very inexpert understanding, the electrical advantage is basically that max torque is available right from zero revs whereas a diesel needs to rev up to about 2000 revs... - The electric motors I like are maxed at around 1000rpm (African Cats) and will regen when immersed else lift up out of the water - therefore you can use efficient propellors and save heaps by not needing feathering etc for sailing efficiency....

mp459

05-29-2008, 05:31 PM

From my very inexpert understanding, the electrical advantage is basically that max torque is available right from zero revs whereas a diesel needs to rev up to about 2000 revs... -

Right. To hear E-Motion tell it, you can drive a bigger prop with a lower-HP electric motor, because a diesel would stall at low RPM. But this doesn't explain why you would want to compare an DE with an underpowered conventional drive to get "apple to apples" comparison, as is suggested in the proboat articles. Either:
a) You can drive a boat as well with a lower-hp electric motor as you can with a higher-hp traditional-drive diesel, which is what the DE companies are saying
or b) you can't: you lose a lot of driving power in the lower-hp DE motor (which seems to be what the proboat articles suggest), so you should compare it to a de-powered direct (ok, with a trans/reduction) diesel drive,
or c) you can drive teh boat just fine with a reduced-hp electric motor, or a de-powered direct diesel, or the standard diesel (which would mean that we've all been overpowering our boats for the past several decades).

Now, Mr. Calder has forgotten more than I'll ever know about this stuff, not to mention I have a _lot_ of respect for him. So my question is: What gives? Which is it?

In other words, if a lower-hp DE setup drives the boat as well as a higher-hp traditional configuration, how is this not apples-to-apples ?

I'm guessing I'm missing a glaring piece of the puzzle somewhere.

masalai

05-29-2008, 05:53 PM

You gotta "read between the lines"- - You Yanks developed Hype, learn to live with it.... Them marketing people have a lot to answer for in the corruption of many things (selling, politicians, commodities, fools and so on he he he or :D:D:D)

Guillermo

05-29-2008, 11:24 PM

...I have heard nobody advocate for reduced power in a conventional engine as a means of gaining "efficiency".
Well, in fact most conventional propulsion systems mounted aboard are overpowered from the propulsion point of view. As diesel has been cheap for many years, recreational use-time of boats through the year is usually very short, price of diesel engines has been reducing over time in relative terms, more and more home appliances are mounted aboard, as well as an speedy feeling has grown up among most boatowners, installed power has increased unnecessarily most of the times.

To efficiently run a boat for many miles on end to an S/L ratio of 1.1, let's say, only a relative few HP are needed, usually much less than the nowadays installed power. This forces diesel engines to be run for many hours sometimes even well under 50% of their nominal HP, which is no good for them.

Many years ago auxiliary cruising sailboats used to have the power/displacement ratio under 1.5, but nowadays that figure is commonly located in the 2.5-3.5 range or more, sometimes rocketing up to 7-8, like it happens with some examples of modern light and fast motorsailers.

In my opinion to mount a conventional system with power being over a ratio of 2.0-2.2 is a waste of money. This kind of power (for most cruising sailboats) is more than enough to beat dead to winward into a force 10 in sheltered waters.

Cheers.

mp459

05-30-2008, 01:47 AM

Guillermo,

No arguments from me there. I remember when I was getting certified for NITROX diving, the first thing the instructor said was something along the lines of, "We're used to limits with diving, and the only thing that NITROX does is introduce a couple more limits." I feel the same way about increasing HP on a displacement hull: It increases the limit of what you can power through by a small percentage. If a low-HP motor has to work at capacity a small percentage of the time to power you through difficult situations, the more you increase the horsepower, the more you decrease hte percentage of the time when you need that extra power. And the bottom line is you still have that limit, excpet now it increased by a knot or half a knot of current, say, or a few extra knots of headwind.
But my point is not adding more power to the engine. My point is that the claims from DE manufacturers is that a lower-hp motor will handle as well as a conventional system, whereas the claims from other sources is that you are significantly de-powering the boat.

Wave_Guide

11-27-2008, 10:59 PM

The conventional design, essentially unchanged since the invention of the steam boat, has several inherent disadvantages:

1) It requires a through-hull connection of the propeller to the engine. That connection is usually below the water line, making the connection vulnerable to leakage and a high maintenance headache.
2) The propeller rotation cannot be reversed without some form of transmission (most internal combustion engines can't run in reverse rotation).
3) The propeller thrust cannot be yawed (vectored), requiring the boat to maintain enough velocity through the water to achieve rudder steerage.
4) The propeller shaft (going through the hull) is vulnerable to being struck from behind -- turning it into a harpoon aimed at the engine.
5) Coupling of engine vibration to the hull cannot be completely eliminated because of the through-hull connection. (Also, anything that snags or suddenly stops the propeller will damage the engine or transmission because it is directly coupled).
6) You have to run the engine to get propulsion. In an emergency, Murphy's Law dictates that that is the most likely moment when the engine will fail to start. It's also difficult to silently sneak into a slip at 4 AM without waking your neighbors (or parents... I remember the night long ago when I decided to shoot into a slip under sail alone, just a little too fast, to avoid alerting my parents and... you can guess the results...).
7) Internal combustion engines with reasonably sized flywheels have a minimum rotational speed (lowest possible RPM). Just try running a diesel engine at 10 RPM. Electric motors on the other hand can turn at dead slow speeds without complex transmissions.

Some of those above disadvantages are the reason we have diesel-electric train engines and you rarely see anything else pulling trains. Can you imagine the size of the transmission required to reverse the rotation on one of those monsters? Instead, they simply reverse the polarity to the electric motor. All that's required then is an electric polarity-reversal switch.

The production of high torque at low-rotational speeds is also an advantage with diesel-electric trains since they must get enormous masses moving from a dead stop -- but less of a concern when moving a fluid medium with a propeller. The authors here that got hung up on the power issues miss the crux of the advantages of diesel-electric designs: replacement of rigid drive shafts with flexible copper wire (and now the boat doesn't need a hole in its transom through which must pass a rotating drive shaft), easy reversibility of rotation, steerable propulsion, de-coupling of the engine from the load (propeller), and ease of maintenance where only the propeller-motor assembly is exposed to the elements (...ever try to replace a propeller shaft while the boat was still in the water?).

Now imagine this design: A DC motor attached directly to the rudder and rudder linkage as a single unit. When the rudder is turned, the motor-propeller assembly turns with it, thus providing yaw authority well below rudder steerage speed. Power is supplied to the motor via just two wires that feed from a through-hull well above the water line, completely eliminating the need for leaking hull penetrations. And if you provided batteries for the motor as a power source, in addition to the diesel engine (that would turn an AC generator with current rectified to DC), you could sneak around like a submarine for short runs without even starting the engine. And the engine could now do just one task: charging batteries -- instead of being in its usual dual role of also turning a propeller. Now you can mount the engine on really nice vibration dampeners and not have to worry about any drive shaft alignments to a propeller. Heck, you could even put the engine someplace other than in the stern!

Do you know how we start turbine engines on jet airplanes? We spin them up with a DC motor. And do you know what we do with that DC motor once the fires are lit in the engines? We reverse their polarity and use them as generators to recharge the batteries and run all the other electrical stuff in the airplane. DC motors are just as happy turning mechanical energy into electrical energy as they are turning electrical energy into mechanical energy. (We don't use AC motors because it's difficult to control their speeds, you can't use series-wound motors for enormous amounts of torque, and it's inefficient to power AC motors from DC batteries. Please don't ask me why we don't use "AC batteries" because I will refer you to your 7th grade science class teacher for remedial training.)

So here's one other little added advantage: If you unfeather that propeller while under sail, and if you don't mind a little drag (if you're already moving along at hull speed, what's wrong with putting out a little extra sail?), you can let that propeller turn the motor in order to charge the batteries. Instant sail-derived electrical power! No more noisy stinking engines charging batteries while you're under way.

But then, who am I to buck tradition and try to redesign the steam boat?

Wave_Guide

11-28-2008, 12:08 AM

I'm obviously new to this blog software...

I need to nuke post number 156, and I'm baffled on how to do that. Any ideas?

Joakim

11-28-2008, 05:10 AM

1) It requires a through-hull connection of the propeller to the engine. That connection is usually below the water line, making the connection vulnerable to leakage and a high maintenance headache.
2) The propeller rotation cannot be reversed without some form of transmission (most internal combustion engines can't run in reverse rotation).
3) The propeller thrust cannot be yawed (vectored), requiring the boat to maintain enough velocity through the water to achieve rudder steerage.
4) The propeller shaft (going through the hull) is vulnerable to being struck from behind -- turning it into a harpoon aimed at the engine.
5) Coupling of engine vibration to the hull cannot be completely eliminated because of the through-hull connection. (Also, anything that snags or suddenly stops the propeller will damage the engine or transmission because it is directly coupled).
6) You have to run the engine to get propulsion. In an emergency, Murphy's Law dictates that that is the most likely moment when the engine will fail to start. It's also difficult to silently sneak into a slip at 4 AM without waking your neighbors (or parents... I remember the night long ago when I decided to shoot into a slip under sail alone, just a little too fast, to avoid alerting my parents and... you can guess the results...).

Very few of these advantages are related to electric drive itself, which most often also has a traditional shaft. Most of them could be equally solved with a sail drive, which could rather easily be made turnable, if that would be necessary (like Volvo IPS).

A well isolated diesel is quite quiet. I think that the worst noise from my Yanmar comes from the beeper check before starting it.

Joakim

FAST FRED

11-28-2008, 06:30 AM

For max cruising efficiency all one needs is a set of batterys that can accept a huge charge rate , and an alternator capable of charging at about 80% of the battery BANK capacity.

Either a bus alt, 12v 250 to 300A /or 24v same amps , with a set of AGM batts would fill the requirement.

The cost of std Wet cell batts and a std but oversized alt would have a longer life as a house set ,and lower overall costs per year , but the BIG DC setup could provide shorter charge times.

What are you willing to pay for added silence? Rational electric propulsion is still waiting to get to the drawing board.

FF

westsail42

11-28-2008, 09:50 AM

Very few of these advantages are related to electric drive itself, which most often also has a traditional shaft. Most of them could be equally solved with a sail drive, which could rather easily be made turnable, if that would be necessary (like Volvo IPS).

The downside of saildrives is that you cant install them on all hull forms. Example, full keel forms may not be able to take a sail drive. At least not without considerable modification.

A well isolated diesel is quite quiet. I think that the worst noise from my Yanmar comes from the beeper check before starting it.

Joakim

Now that is saying quite a lot! Some of those (now older) Yanmars sounded like a chattery box of rocks! :p

westsail42

11-28-2008, 10:03 AM

What are you willing to pay for added silence? Rational electric propulsion is still waiting to get to the drawing board.

FF

This is one of the most common misunderstandings about choosing D/E. No one should consider D/E for the "added silence" alone. If you are talking retrofitting a straight diesel setup, the costs and risks from adapting the necessary systems is too much.

But, considering D/E in the context of, and integrated with, the entire electrical power requirements of the entire boat, and all the geeky electrical doo-dads we put on our boats, I believe it makes sense. More efficient? not sure, but I think it has a shot.

I also think that an integrated D/E system has a chance of even simplifying boat systems overall, depending on how the design is approached.

As a concept, I think D/E is sound, but for me, the jury is still out on reliability of the current small boat D/E offerings.

Joakim

11-28-2008, 10:07 AM

The downside of saildrives is that you cant install them on all hull forms. Example, full keel forms may not be able to take a sail drive.

Now that is saying quite a lot! Some of those (now older) Yanmars sounded like a chattery box of rocks! :p

What kind of electric drive can you install on hulls that can't have a sail drive?

I have a Yanmar 1GM10C. I don't think it is much different from 1GM from early 80's. It is noisy unless you have a good installation, which is easy to do with a sail drive. And the beeper is loud.

Joakim

westsail42

11-28-2008, 11:12 AM

What kind of electric drive can you install on hulls that can't have a sail drive?

Any straight shaft installation could be retrofitted with diesel electric. There are a few makers out there (search for "ossa powerlite" or "emotion hybrids").

I have a Yanmar 1GM10C. I don't think it is much different from 1GM from early 80's. It is noisy unless you have a good installation, which is easy to do with a sail drive. And the beeper is loud.

Yeah, we have a mid-90's era 3GM straight shaft installation. It has been noisy since we installed it. And I installed sound insulation! In our case the engine mounts needed to be pretty stiff so I think much sound/vibration gets telegraphed to the hull.

Yes, Yanmar beepers are LOUD.

Joakim

11-28-2008, 12:16 PM

Any straight shaft installation could be retrofitted with diesel electric.

Certainly, but then you still have many of your disadvantage items.

Joakim

mp459

11-28-2008, 06:06 PM

With a saildrive, you still have the through-hull. There's an interest thread on the Volvo saildrive on a cruisers forum, bot I forget which. I like the idea, in principle, of an electric motor attached to the rudder, but I see other issues, including sizing a rudder to take the weight of the motor, sizing rudder fittings for the extra weight, and not least configuring a rudder with a bulge big enough at the end, plus a weird propeller protrusion, would be aesthetically weird. Most sailboat hulls taper off at the end, one way or the other. Also traditional hull forms encapsulate the propeller in an appeture to protect it.
I guess it's feasible to encapsulate a motor, up to say 6 inch diameter,in the rudder. Have the motor "face forward" (so the shaft comes out forward of the rudder). Then you could still put the propeller in the traditional aperture. Neat idea.

Another issue, of course, is that you now have a submerged motor. There's several ways of getting away with this, but they all add complexity.

However a lot of the drawbacks listed are still eliminated, even with simply replacing the engine with an electric motor:

2) we can reverse the motor without transmissions
4) "propeller shaft vulnerable to being stuck from behind": now sure how anything can eliminate this…except that with an electric motor, wherever it is placed, striking the shaft harms only the motor, not the engine (generator), batteries, etc.
5) we can better insulate the engine
6) we can propel with battery only
7) we can turn the prop "real slow".

and additionally,
- we can generate electricity using propeller drag
- we can "simplify" the boat systems, by looking at the propulsion as "just another load" on the electric system
- we can save some gas in the process
- we can move the engine anywhere
etc.

Y

mp459

11-28-2008, 06:10 PM

I'm obviously new to this blog software...

I need to nuke post number 156, and I'm baffled on how to do that. Any ideas?

If you click 'edit' you'll be given a 'delete' option, I think. WOrked on me just now when my post came through twice.

But:

Why do you want to nuke it?

westsail42

11-28-2008, 11:13 PM

Certainly, but then you still have many of your disadvantage items.

Joakim

I dont know what "my disadvantage" items you are talking about.

If you are referring to wave_guide's list, I dont consider them a disadvantage. But since you called me on it, I will address them.

1) It requires a through-hull connection of the propeller to the engine. That connection is usually below the water line, making the connection vulnerable to leakage and a high maintenance headache.

This is not a disadvantage. Modern, non-packing gland, shaft seals are pretty reliable. We have had one for over ten years. Not requiring one minute of maintenance.

2) The propeller rotation cannot be reversed without some form of transmission (most internal combustion engines can't run in reverse rotation).

Electric motors can be reversed almost instantaneously, though likely not in real-time with a marine application, but they can be reversed faster than throttling back shifting a reverse gear. Not a disadvantage.

3) The propeller thrust cannot be yawed (vectored), requiring the boat to maintain enough velocity through the water to achieve rudder steerage.

A Z-drive, while maybe handy and more efficient, does not give a sailboat much advantage over rudder steering, used for centuries. Advantages of Z-drive are easily realized on fast planing power boats however. Not a disadvantage.

4) The propeller shaft (going through the hull) is vulnerable to being struck from behind -- turning it into a harpoon aimed at the engine.

I have never heard of a sailboat being struck from behind at the propeller. Most often, it will have to get past the rudder. But, never heard of this actually happening. Not a disadvantage.

5) Coupling of engine vibration to the hull cannot be completely eliminated because of the through-hull connection. (Also, anything that snags or suddenly stops the propeller will damage the engine or transmission because it is directly coupled).

No, but you can get very close by separating the thrust from the engine with an Aquadrive, or PythonDrive and going really soft on the engine/generator mounts. Even better in the case of a generator as they are often tuned for optimal output and a constant RPM with minimal noise and vibration. Not a disadvantage.

6) You have to run the engine to get propulsion. In an emergency, Murphy's Law dictates that that is the most likely moment when the engine will fail to start. It's also difficult to silently sneak into a slip at 4 AM without waking your neighbors (or parents... I remember the night long ago when I decided to shoot into a slip under sail alone, just a little too fast, to avoid alerting my parents and... you can guess the results...).

Murphy's law, yes quite scientific. If you take the law seriously, you should not be stepping out of your house, cause a meteor will strike you.

Not a disadvantage.

westsail42

11-28-2008, 11:17 PM

Another advantage of electric propulsion:

Instant thrust. with the electric motor flat torque curve, you can select a propeller that is efficient over the entire RPM range and would provide more thrust at that low RPM where straight diesel propulsion would otherwise be overloaded.

Joakim

11-29-2008, 03:51 AM

I dont know what "my disadvantage" items you are talking about.

I'm sorry I mixed you two. I don't think there are many real disadvantages in a well done diesel installation compared to any diesel-electric I have seen, atleast on smaller sailboats.

There are some advantages of an electric drive like a wider rpm area a bit more torque at low rpm, faster change of direction etc., but I don't really think these are real problems in sailboats, just minor details.

Most sailboats travel less than 2 kn on idle. Why would it be necessary to go slower without neutral? Slower rpm overall would enable larger and more efficient propellers, but would not make much difference on current size of propellers. A sailor wouldn't like to have bigger propellers causing more drag.

Higher initial torgue and faster change of direction are manouverability issues. I don't see any real problems in manouverability of a well done diesel installation.

If the two above would be real disadvantages, threre are solutions to those without using a diesel-electric system.

The through hull of a shaft or a sail drive is a potential, but extremely unlikely, risk. Even the electric drive needs a shaft or a thick cable through hull and a motor under water is a risk for propulsion.

Since power needed for currently used cruising speeds is beyond the current battery technology the diesel generator and the electric motor would be rather tightly connected. Thus you would need to run the diesel power close to the electric power on anything but short runs. You are not able to use the best efficiency of the diesel much better than in normal diesel installation.

I don't see much problems in using the normal diesel as a generator when thrust is not needed.

In future the batteries needed will probably be cheaper, lighter and less expencive. Then it makes more sence to use diesel-electric on a sailboat.

Joakim

mp459

11-29-2008, 04:09 PM

On a sailboat, most of the time I prefer to sail. (Yes, I know that you can't always sail. I've done much "sailing" on the chesapeake in July/August.) This makes the propulsion motor an auxiliary device, as it was initially called. This means that most of the time when I run the engine, it's to charge batteries (either under sail or at anchor).

It seems (to me) more efficient to run an engine generator (compared to a propulsion engine with an alternator) to produce electricity. Talk to the cruisers who carry aboard a portable gasoline generator for charging.

If propulsion is another auxiliary load, why not provide it electrically? An added benefit is that, while sailing, the propulsion motor can generate electricity, further reducing diesel use.

Part of the bottom line is range. If I can reduce diesel usage by 25%, I've also increased my range by 25%. I think that's possible by running a diesel generator instead of a propulsion motor with alternator. If I can generate sufficient electricity with the motor under sail to reduce that a further 25%, I have doubled my range.

So, for me, what drives diesel-electric is fuel economy and range.

Since power needed for currently used cruising speeds is beyond the current battery technology the diesel generator and the electric motor would be rather tightly connected. Thus you would need to run the diesel power close to the electric power on anything but short runs. You are not able to use the best efficiency of the diesel much better than in normal diesel installation.

. The OSSA powerlite system uses no batteries, running the generator all the time the motor is needed (at, I believe 48V but dont' quote me). The E-Motion system relies on a 144V bank. There's also the Duffy electric boat, which has been running on battery alone since 1970 at 48 or 96V. The higher voltage keeps cables to a reasonable size. I agree we need better battery technology, but within certain limitations we can handle the loads with today's batteries. I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean in your last two sentences ("Thus you would need to*…*normal diesel installation"). I assume you mean vary the generator RPM, therefore you are nto able to run the engine at the most efficient RPM at all time. While this is true, there are a few possibilities:

First, if you have a battery bank that will allow you to motor for a short time , you can run the engine intermittently over a longer time, say 15 minutes an hour. Secondly, you can do what we do with direct-drive diesels: for long runs, match generator efficiency to cruising speed (although I haven't seen much on this, and I've a feeling there's something I'm missing here). THird, and most importantly, is that your generator is designed to provide electricity. On a conventional drive, the full power of the engine goes to turn a propeller: electricity is somewhat of an afterthought, with a belt-driven alternator trying to tackle jobs the engine was not designed to do. (If you need more info on this, talk to people who have tried to retrofit a "high output" alternator about design issues, adding pullies to accommodate a second belt, belt slippage, frequency of belt changes. etc. I know a couple who had a professionally installed high-output balmar on their Yanmar. IF the batteries were dead, the belts were sure to go. They ended up with a complicated charging ritual involving a combination of a Honda portable gasoline generator and their Yanmar/Balmar.)

True, for pure motoring, I'm not convinced D-E is any more efficient than a conventional drive. But for a sailboat, I believe there are great efficiencies, especially for long-term sailing. Logically, on a sailboat, it makes sense to me to couple your engine to your house load rather than your propeller.

mickey

masalai

11-29-2008, 05:01 PM

Just do the math and if the weight and $ costs equal a benefit that is worthwhile to you then do it if not don't... - - no need to get all emotional it suits some and not others...

Just feel rather like being a "grumpy old grampa" for a while :D:D:D

Joakim

11-29-2008, 05:03 PM

My points were

1. If you wan't to be able to run a bit longer at your normal cruising speed (close to "hull speed"), you need a generator, that is about the same power as the diesel you have. It is not feasible to have almost any help from batteries on this. E.g. I use about 3 kW power of my 1GM10 for cruising speed. How much would batteries cost/weigh for say 6 * 3 kWh use. Thus if you want to maintain this posibility, you need a generator quite identical to your current motor and just as inefficient on normal use. A bit bigger boat would like to cruise at 15 kW, which is even much more problematic.

2. If you plan to use sequental charging (generator runs say 50% of time at full power), you need again a huge battery pack in order to take that charging current. Also you loose energy (20%???) each time you charge/discharge a battery.

3. In smaller boats the engine/alternator is seldom the limiting factor. It is the battery pack that is unable to receive the full current at regulated voltage. As well as going to diesel-electric the normal diesel could be designed to be a better generator, when not used for propulsion.

4. Using the propeller as a generator is quite limited. You don't want to do that before you reach your hull speed, since any reasonable power would slow you down dramatically. Even more so you don't want to use it on a beat.

If range is the most important thing, then you should just lower your cruising speed. Dropping 0,5-1 kn could easily double your range.

Joakim

mp459

11-29-2008, 05:16 PM

Joakim, all good points! Too bad I gotta work now and can't give them the thought which they deserve. Will do so soon

Masali,
I've done lots of math, and I get more confused! If anyone cares to help or peruse, please visit:
http://sites.google.com/a/slowresponseteam.com/sv-bahia/Home/diesel-electric-propulsion
and
http://svbahia.wordpress.com/tag/diesel-electric/

Let me know if I'm missing something :)

Peace,
oh, and happy thanksgiving to those who celebrate it this past thursday. The rest of you, happy weekend!

Y

FAST FRED

12-01-2008, 07:11 AM

"Part of the bottom line is range. If I can reduce diesel usage by 25%, I've also increased my range by 25%. I think that's possible by running a diesel generator instead of a propulsion motor with alternator. If I can generate sufficient electricity with the motor under sail to reduce that a further 25%, I have doubled my range."

"So, for me, what drives diesel-electric is fuel economy and range. "

Simply running a SMALLER diesel will give better range at lower cost and with longer engine life.

" you can select a propeller that is efficient over the entire RPM range and would provide more thrust at that low RPM where straight diesel propulsion would otherwise be overloaded."

Propellers are currently made with variable PITCH , unfortuniatly not with variable Diameter.

The prop loading curves show if you can spin the prop at any speed , going slower will not increase torque requirements , no low speed overloading.

If you simply wish to be really efficient a heavily loaded engine will do it with a suitable reduction gear..

The big hassle is most yachty cruising boats for decades have been lowering house loads , so the concept of diesel electric , as used on cruise ships with HUGE house loads doesn't compute.

It is still the least fuel use to have the ability to charge house batts at a HUGE !!! rate (expensive alt , monitoring and gel cells) while the boat is being pushed by the engine.

FF

__________________

mp459

12-01-2008, 06:26 PM

I would say the least fuel use would be to power through non-fuel sources, like a dragging propeller, wind, and sun :)
I was under the impression, also, that yachtie house loads were on the increase, what with AC, washer/drier, even trash compactors?!

So far the question has been, "is it worth it to use D-E?" I'll put masalai's question to you, then, as well: Can you show us your math for the cost/benefit analysis? Maybe if we all publish our "math", we can come up with a spreadsheet to see where the charge/motor/regenerate equation calls for direct-drive vs. hybrid.
Y

masalai

12-01-2008, 10:17 PM

That can be done quite simply and with this formula VxA=W (VoltsxAmps = Watts) calculate the amount of power needed for each item and for each item estimate a fairly generous estimation of each item run time (per day) in hours and a decimal multiply the two items to give watt/hours consumed - - - - Add all these together to give kilowatt/hours and you will have the energy needed to drive your boat....

A "rule of thumb" say 80% time sitting - so house needs only...

So in say 100 days you will have
20 days at house load PLUS propulsion
80 days at house load - some things will only be needed weekly so another category for them (watermaker, watch movies and entertain on Saturday night, process and empty black water, high pressure jet to clean the boats' bottom etc...)

FAST FRED

12-02-2008, 06:48 AM

80 days at house load would require huge solar area (hard on a rag boat) OR a reduction in std of living , no watermaker , dishwasher , or washing machine.

For an "efficient " noisemaker setup one would have to be able to run whichever units could be run on the gen set AND charge a big house set at the same time.

Sorta gets one into the std marine motorist setup , an hour or two every day AM & PM.Unless the Air Cond is on , then its noise/stench 24/7.

Modest (sailboat style ) refrigeration and house loads can easily (but expen$ivly ) be handled with a std wet cell bat bank.

Depending on the house bat set size (number of days of silence ) you can pay for.

FF

thudpucker

12-03-2008, 06:41 AM

Maybe a sobering overview might help.
Watts in Equal Watts out.
No matter how you get it, Watts to the prop are gonna come from some kind of energy.
Keeping it simple, the Diesel and Reduction gear is a lot cheaper than a Diesel, a Generator and an Electric motor.

And one heckuva lot lighter as well as taking less room.

I really dont know why they work out so well in Trains, but the Train's can move real heavy loads for a lot less than a fleet of trucks doing the same job.

marshmat

12-03-2008, 01:38 PM

Watts in Equal Watts out.
No matter how you get it, Watts to the prop are gonna come from some kind of energy.
Very true. No matter how much technology you throw at a problem, the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics will always win out.

I really dont know why they work out so well in Trains, but the Train's can move real heavy loads for a lot less than a fleet of trucks doing the same job. D-E drive in trains is not for efficiency at a steady cruise speed. Indeed, they'd be more efficient- at constant speed- with direct drive from the big diesel to the axles.
The reason D-E works so well in trains is because trains don't operate at constant speed. They need full power and full torque at zero RPM in order to get moving, and they need full power available at any speed with any load. Using a diesel generator and electric wheel motors has the effect of decoupling engine RPM from wheel RPM. If more power is needed, the engine can speed up to whatever RPM it needs to produce that power, while the wheel motors can translate nearly all of that power into torque at any speed.
Transport trucks have enormous gearboxes (12, 18, I've even heard of 27-speed transmissions) to accomplish the same thing. D-E in a train is essentially the limiting case as the number of gears goes to infinity- engine RPM becomes dependent only on power demand, and drive wheel torque can be optimized for the precise conditions of load and RPM. Indeed, even with a 27-speed transmission, a train diesel would probably have a hard time getting more than a few dozen cars rolling; it would just stall, even in low gear. But with D-E, the diesel can rev up to full power before the wheels are even turning, and the electric drives can translate that power into torque at zero RPM.

Now, in a boat, it's a different story altogether. The effect of decoupling engine RPM from prop RPM is still there, and is where the fuel savings (if any) come from- as the boat goes up and down waves, the load on the prop changes, and the engine RPM (and fuel consumption) can change as well even though the prop RPM stays constant. But I'm not convinced that for a typical boat, in typical cruising conditions, the savings (if any) outweigh the added capital cost. Where it does make sense is on vessels such as cruise ships, where the house load is enormous and the propulsion loads highly variable. A typical 75,000 tonne cruise liner might have four main diesel generators and four azipod drives. In port it'll be running one diesel for the house loads only. On a slow passage between adjacent islands it might be running two of the engines, while to cross a big stretch of open water at speed with a full complement of guests, all four might be churning away. And these ships can't draw on shorepower; they need more electricity than most of their ports of call can provide.

I don't think the average cruiser sees this kind of variability. A lot of people, when cruising under engine, seem to pick one speed where the boat is comfortable and reasonably efficient, and always cruise within a couple of knots of that speed. Then, when at anchor, they'll run house loads off the battery that was charged up while the engine was on. A properly sized mechanical driveline with the correct prop strikes me as the more efficient choice here. If you're going to go electric in a cruiser, I think it had better be tied in with enough solar or wind generation capability to make you at least slightly independent of the fuel dock.

masalai

12-03-2008, 02:46 PM

thudpucker, most of the points are in the post by marshmat, the only one left is cost and for your D/E trains include the cost of the track and track maintenance in the comparison.... Steam also has the capacity to exert maximum torque at zero wheel revs to start and had many drive wheels linked to spread the traction more effectively and there is a benefit in additional weight in the locomotive as steel on steel is not the best at transferring torque into motion....

The cost is huge for recreational boats and I tried to justify it as also for house by using 3.5KW of solar panels so while parked in a beautiful and peaceful bay I would not need the diesel generator - could not justify on that basis either as capital costs were far too great and electric motor controllers and submerged motors or otherwise requiring water cooling??? sorry not a working solution yet....

SFcruiser

12-09-2008, 03:36 PM

Considering the price/performance, it make sense for day-sailers or club racers to installer a small 48V DC motor to get in and out of the harbor when they need to re-power their old diesel engine. They need only four 12V batteries (50 A-hr each; just need it for a while). Batteries can be charged at the dock power - usually its free. For a longer distance trip, just carry a Honda gas generator for safety.

The overall price is half of a diesel installation and it can be done in an afternoon w/o professional help. It also cut the weight by more than 50%. Guess the competition is a outboard motor setup - its cheaper, light weight but noisy.

For cruisers, I still don't see a viable solution yet - the overall cost is more than double of a diesel installation. Advantages are not very significant at the current setting (except for big cat).

From the engineering point of view, the bottleneck of the D/E system efficiency is mainly on the battery technology. All the lead acid batteries, including AGM, are poor on the recharging efficiency. Unless we see the Lithium battery price dropped to a reasonable level (might happen in a couple years due to the development of EV), it is not a good option at this time for cruiser with big demand.

However, this is not 100% true. There are still cruisers circumnavigating w/o an engine....:p :D

Cheer!

SFcruiser

SFcruiser

12-09-2008, 04:49 PM

Here is more:

For those cruisers really concern about the fuel consumption to the level of considering D/E system (its possible for a long distance trip and the fuel tank capacity is limited - more important than money saving):

Option 1: go for the D/E system but consider to install Lithium battery instead. There are package available for the EV. Check: http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm. It will be more expensive but its light-weighted and a lot more efficient. You need to change it every 3-4 years no matter your use it or not.

Option 2: Just put a prop 1-2 inch bigger in diameter and 1-2" larger in pitch. It will move the max output of your diesel to 2000-2500 rpm from 3600 rpm and provide a lot better efficiency at your cruising speed. I bet it can save 30% of the fuel. However, you will lost your engine's max output (you hardly use it but once a while use it in bad situation. You lost that on those P/E system too; for some people, this is more on your skill to avoid troubles instead of an defect). It will create a bigger drag while sailing so you might want to install a one-size bigger 3-blade folding prop (like Max prop). It will cost you $4000-5000 but it is more reliable than those D/E system at this time. Still cheaper!

SFCruiser

FAST FRED

12-11-2008, 06:53 AM

"Option 2: Just put a prop 1-2 inch bigger in diameter and 1-2" larger in pitch. It will move the max output of your diesel to 2000-2500 rpm from 3600 rpm and provide a lot better efficiency at your cruising speed. I bet it can save 30% of the fuel. However, you will lost your engine's max output (you hardly use it but once a while use it in bad situation."

This is known as a cruising prop and for my bucks is the best way to gain HUGE efficiency on most cruisers.

Far longer service life , quieter , no wet stacking ,less blowby, less noise and vibration.

A diesel MUST be loaded to produce good efficiency so pulling back a 100hp unit to 2gph 35 hp does not work as well as reproping to a lower cruise rpm.

For best results an exhaust gas temp pickup should be installed (about $100 + drilling and tapping) .

A simple rule of thumb is to operate at full throttle and pull back 10% of the observed RPM.

Pace a red line at the 10% down rpm and ALWAYS OBSERVE THE LIMIT!!!

FF

thudpucker

12-11-2008, 08:45 AM

WOW! I'm impressed with facts. I love to dream and wish, but Facts will bring you back to the four grey walls. You guys are impressive!

At any rate, at our present state of engineering and technology, a fossil fuel engine and a mechanical reduction gear/Prop are the most efficient means of propulsion we have. If you dont include sails! Even that aint free!

marshmat

12-11-2008, 10:25 AM

Fred,

If I read correctly, you're advocating the use of a larger prop at lower RPM, but rather than gearing the engine down, you're suggesting that its redline should be detuned slightly?

Seems to make sense; after all, a prop sized to absorb the full power of the engine at WOT will usually be underloading it by a fair bit at 2/3 throttle. Provided, that is, you don't need WOT.... but with the more efficient large-diameter prop, one should be able to maintain thrust reasonably well when beating into the wind.

With a modern computerized engine I would think some tweaking of the computer would be called for, even if just to change the rev limiter....

Kind of makes me wonder about truckers. At the rest stations along Hwy. 401, they're always griping about the high cost of diesel. Then they park in the back and leave their 400-hp Cummins running for nine hours, spinning a pair of alternators and an A/C unit that draw maybe 15 hp combined. Then they complain about the dismal fuel economy their rig is showing and how often it has to go to the shop.

SFcruiser

12-11-2008, 01:26 PM

Back to the DC system, high voltage DC is very deadly - 140VDC is more dangerous than 240VAC. I just don't like the idea of pushing all of these high voltage wires around my cruising boat to achieve a goal of "all-in-one". Bad idea!

Safety standard, such as IEC60950, regulates DC voltage lower than 60V as "separated extra low voltage (SELV)" and subject with less regulations. Telephone system or Golf car has been using 48VDC for many years. If its for the after-market re-power usage, 48V or 60V DC motor is good target. If we consider 100 amp of current as upper limit due to the size/cost of wires and motor, these motors will have a power less than 10-15hp so the targeted market will be limited - again, this is the safety consideration for the after market installation.

If its a well-thought-off arrangement such as a motor/generator set-up, I would consider 140VDC but still put a big dangerous / expert only sign on it. If the goal is using 140VDC on all the appliances, I will throw the plan out of the window today and say "Bad idea!". Who want to own a boat with expert-access-only sign everywhere? Remember these set-up should be use for 10-20 years - following the life span of a diesel engine. Would you put your life on the chance of a puddle of 10-years-old epoxy barrier coating? :mad:

140VDC refrigerator/stove/winch/windlass/water-maker are expensive or not-readily-available. As a result, you still need a big DC-DC converter or DC-AC inverter to achieve the goal - which kill your efficiency. From economic / availability point of view, a 24VDC / 120VAC system is probably still a better choice, cheaper generator and plenty of appliances to choice from - then, we are talking about a separate generator again ... :confused:

So, again, I found its very attractive to install a electric motor on daysailor / club racer up to about 36' - at least that is a viable option. Grid power is cheap and clean. Honda portable generator is quite and efficient - I need it at home too. For other applications, there are still a long way to go.

SF cruiser

masalai

12-11-2008, 05:44 PM

SFcruiser - All high vlotage stuff can be dangerous if one foolishly sticks ones finger or other things where they should not be.... Choices remain restricted to available technology - - I would regard 240v ac as less dangerous than the US system using 110 volts AC as the amperage and evidence of showering sparks in "colliding overhead wiring is quite alarming to view - - - mostly here in OZ (I am not an electrician but observe stuff) the supply shuts off when there is a short detected (live wires may fall down and not short sufficiently to cause auto-shut-off)....

It is not difficult to convert 240 v AC to DC and vice versa as can also be done with 120 or 140 volts and a knowledgeable and competent QUALIFIED electrician should be able to design and build such a device and put it in a box for "safety".... from stupidity - but none can protect the ignorant stupidity of some.... 24 V or 48 V power leads are very thick and heavy and expensive.....

SFcruiser

12-11-2008, 07:29 PM

Yes, DC at higher voltage IS more dangerous than AC at the same voltage: I am not an electrician but I am a PhD EE with many many years of experience in the lab. The reason is: DC voltage is more efficient to penetrate the body and give it a shock. It also delivery higher energy to create damage than a AC current at the same voltage.

AC can be converted to DC - same as the other way around. However, you will loss about 10-20% of energy. Its OK if its a low wattage application. It is bad if its a high-output application - create lots of heat.

Marine environment is bad for this kind of set-up. You have condensation at cold area; you might have a leaking sea water tube. These recreational boat usually have a life longer than 20 years and boaters like to do stupid things on their boat..... If anything happen to create a path for the 140VDC, you might get a shock at some unexpected places - might not need to stick your finger to the electrode. This is more dangerous than carrying gas tank on board which many people say No.

On the other hand, if the 140VDC leak thru the sea water, you might get some salmon belly up around your boat ready to be served as dinner! :p Just a joke.

Ratch

12-12-2008, 10:44 PM

thudpucker

12-12-2008, 11:12 PM

Back in the 60's somebody realized this Electricity/Wet wood/metal/etc was dangerous to the casual dummy who just might touch something hot(live)

I went around to customer sites for a year installing the Cord with the third (green) wire in it and advised the customer to get the 3-pronged sockets etc. You guys all know about that stuff now, but then, only a few did.

I'd get calls from my customers saying "your Till shockes me" and invariably it'd be something else sitting on the Stainless bar, or the wet Wooden bar.
The Till is grounded, the 'other' device was leaking to a ground.
When the Customer leaned against the bar and touched my grounded Till, she became a path to ground.
Whoo hoo! What the hell was that? And all of a sudden nobody wanted to work the Till. Ignorance yes, but deadly too.

So we are talking about installing some AC generators to provide some big Black Rats to run a treadmill. Whatever we have that uses the Electrical power can also leak.
I think its foolish for a non-EE to even discuss this option. It's absolutly dangerous, and you just cannot ever tell in advance when something is going to use you as a 'third path to ground' and when you notice, its often too late.

SFcruiser is the PHD, I'm just an AA, so he's gonna have the last word.
But before any of you actually try this in a boat, a wet conductive enviroment, you better make sure your work is reviewd by an experienced EE.
A failure could be a downright shocking experience!

SFcruiser

12-13-2008, 03:32 AM

I should say that there is no perfect way to build a perfect boat - its all trade-off. Although I do not like the idea of using high voltage DC in the marine environment, this is actually "my preference". People would push the way they like. This is also the drive of new technology. I am in general very interested about all the development on P/E but I do worry about the safety factor for a cruising boat.

The new Lithium technology is there but its still very expensive. I found that many of these advanced battery factories is at China instead of in the US. This is really strange since US usually is the technology leader till volume production.

I found and watched a DVD named "Who killed the electric car". It is a great documentary to tell the story behind the secne. Might provide some suggestions on the above question.

FAST FRED

12-13-2008, 07:03 AM

"you're suggesting that the diesel redline should be detuned slightly?"

No, All diesels are most efficient at HEAVY load , the problem is when set to mfg spec say 125hp at full tilt , the engine is severly underloaded at a 1600 rpm cruise of 2 gph , perhaps 35hp.

So a larger diameter prop is used to ask 35 hp at an rpm that can create 45 or so. THis may cut the fuel consumption in half.

The truckers using the 550hp to keep warm is now illegal in most states , and APU (what we call gensets) is used to keep cool or warm. Uncle Sam gives them an uncounted 400lbs on the max truck weight.

If battery tech ever gets 1000% better the electric boat dream , might become more than mental masturbation , for folks with almost no hotel loads.

FF

SFcruiser

12-19-2008, 04:16 PM

I collected some data about Lithium batteries. Batteries with LiFePO4 chemistry seems promising - longer lasting without fire danger. You must have a battery management system (BMS) to handle charging / discharging to extend the battery life.

Here is a bulk-park comparison with the normal AGM battery:

Price: ~ 2.5-3 times higher than AGM (BMS included)
Weight: ~ half of the weight of AGM
Volume: ~ 40% saving in volume.
Cycle life: ~ 2-3 times longer if managed properly
(>2000 cycles at 80% discharge)
Comparable cranking amp and capacity.

It might make sense to use this system for certain P/E applications. Expect a 144VDC 200ah battery set costs $18-20k (weighted at ~ 600lb)

:)

SFcruiser

masalai

12-19-2008, 04:20 PM

I'd rather a mast and sail at this point in time:D:D:D

brian eiland

12-19-2008, 05:29 PM

...I am not an electrician but I am a PhD EE with many many years of experience in the lab....

I collected some data about Lithium batteries. Batteries with LiFePO4 chemistry seems promising - longer lasting without fire danger. You must have a battery management system (BMS) to handle charging / discharging to extend the battery life.....
Perhaps you would like to make some contributions to this subject thread??
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/batteries-new-battery-technologies-21869.html

thudpucker

12-19-2008, 07:41 PM

If anybody cares to look at "How it's made" on TV, they have a segment on Lithium batteries. You can buy those I think. It was pretty informative.

I still think the 'homemade' method I suggested for small boats is about the only workable Petrolium/Electric method workable with the Technology we have today.
If you get out of that range it gets too expensive, too heavy and too dangerous to be useful.

SFcruiser

12-19-2008, 09:31 PM

Sure, I would like to do it after I read through the thread. :)

SFcruiser

bit

01-26-2009, 08:37 AM

Variable pitch propeller to turn left on a boat to go sailing can recharge the batteries?
Speed 8-9 knots.
Thank you

FAST FRED

01-28-2009, 07:18 AM

"Variable pitch propeller to turn left on a boat to go sailing can recharge the batteries? Speed 8-9 knots. "

Sure , of you drop a pail overboard that is the same diameter of the boats propeller , you will get a good indication of the charging drag at that speed.

IF it doesn't slow you down more than you wish a small alt on the prop shaft will do fine.

Be SURE the boats tranny can take free wheeling for hours , some can , some melt.

FF

jimshort19

02-01-2009, 11:19 AM

After a ton of batteries is installed at a cost of $2-$3.00 per ah the life cycle cost far exceeds fossil fuels. Do the math based on 5 year replacement. Then the range is relatively poor. The charging and electric motor losses make the drive less efficient than staight diesel drive. And all of the additional expense of the installation is for less noise?

I suggest a better muffler system would make far more sense. With automotive silencing effectiveness the engine would make the same noise whether in a car, a generator or a sailboat. Less noise is good!

kistinie

03-03-2009, 12:24 PM

Back to the DC system, high voltage DC is very deadly - 140VDC is more dangerous than 240VAC. I just don't like the idea of pushing all of these high voltage wires around my cruising boat to achieve a goal of "all-in-one". Bad idea!

SF cruiser

Very bad idea indeed. No exceptions
100% in favour of that 60V compulsory limit, 48V being preferable, for leisure boats.

Big systems more than 60 Volts should require a specific driving licence option and periodic visits for conformity, just like for commercial boats.

kistinie

03-03-2009, 12:43 PM

After a ton of batteries is installed at a cost of $2-$3.00 per ah the life cycle cost far exceeds fossil fuels. Do the math based on 5 year replacement. ...Less noise is good!
Yes less noise is good, just like less weight and better manoeuvrability.
If batteries last 10 years ?

mp459

03-03-2009, 12:57 PM

Very bad idea indeed. No exceptions
100% in favour of that 60V compulsory limit, 48V being preferable, for leisure boats.

This is an issue. Anything more than 40-50V is considered high voltage. Despite safety concerns,there's a perception that anytyhing more than 40ish DC is dangerous. At a best, this will affect adoption rates. At worst it would start being further regulated. I'm all for further regulation as long as it comes from standards bodies rather than some fat cat in DC. (And I'm from DC :)

As for AC vs. DC safety– would someone please show me some research that shows that voltage-for-voltage, one is less or more safe than the other? I haven't found anything.

kistinie

03-03-2009, 01:34 PM

more than 30 mAmp are enough to kill you.
So for 50 volts you internal resistance need to be 1.6 Kohms. Cover with salt, sweating water and salt, large contact surface with skin, i wouldn't be surprise if you can make it , any one knows about this ?

mp459

03-03-2009, 02:03 PM

Heheheh, so we take some large copper plates and tape them to our sweaty bodies after we've been working in the bilge. Might as well add some conductive grease to make sue. I can think of easier ways (not to mention less stinky ones) if that's your exit plan...

apex1

03-03-2009, 02:56 PM

Very bad idea indeed. No exceptions
100% in favour of that 60V compulsory limit, 48V being preferable, for leisure boats.
Big systems more than 60 Volts should require a specific driving licence option and periodic visits for conformity, just like for commercial boats.

And more regulations to keep us on the hard.
For my fellow members interested in a deeper insight into marine propulsion efficiency I´ll provide some links. Start here:
http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20070607/
goto "content" then page 82 "Hybrid Marine Power" read the article in the following issues too.
And do´nt forget to dl this (achieving the impossible), it may save you several thousands of $ or €...:
http://www.victronenergy.com/support-and-downloads/white-papers/

And if ever possible, affordable and senseful (not for runabouts) install a CPP with a Diesel! Your engine manufacturer will hate you, you´ll never buy a new one!

Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-03-2009, 03:20 PM

i was thinking 60v because "Darwin awards"" winner are common including child playing the electrician.

We could learn to accept more volts in a boat if access is controlled and limited
100% Galvanic separation with all the user products to prevent accidental pollution.
And as we talk safety and electricity, i should do a lightning protection too.
More important than funny or cool devices !

mp459

03-03-2009, 03:22 PM

Looks like another e-motion fan. Welcome to the club. (oh wait, you've been here a while).
But, to admit ignorance: What is CPP ?
Y

kistinie

03-03-2009, 03:28 PM

.
But, to admit ignorance: What is CPP ?
Y

I do not know either, where does "CPP" comes from ? Never heard before, sorry !
But might just be a question of vocabulary i miss in english

Planes use 28 volts, 110, 220 volts, but access is...restricted and controled

mp459

03-03-2009, 03:48 PM

Apex brought up CPP: "install a CPP with a Diesel!"

As for power, remember, boats use 120 volts, 220 Volts as well, on the AC side. So it's not a matter of voltage.

kistinie

03-03-2009, 04:11 PM

Apex brought up CPP: "install a CPP with a Diesel!"

As for power, remember, boats use 120 volts, 220 Volts as well, on the AC side. So it's not a matter of voltage.

120 and 220 are AC, far less dangerous than DC
Size and condition of maintenance of the boat matters a lot

Sorry about CCP, tells me nothing more, Who or what is Apex ?

apex1

03-03-2009, 04:51 PM

Apex brought up CPP: "install a CPP with a Diesel!"
As for power, remember, boats use 120 volts, 220 Volts as well, on the AC side. So it's not a matter of voltage.

Controlled Pitch Propeller

.......120 and 220 are AC, far less dangerous than DC................
and the statement above is just too broad to be true, as always, when it comes to boats and ships ... it depends.....

and have a look through my links above, everything!!! is said about El propulsion and El on board. You will save money reading it!

Regards
Richard

masalai

03-03-2009, 06:03 PM

playing 'devils advocate' - no regulation may be better then the fools who disregard learning and safety issues, would possibly no longer be with us (or in jail for manslaughter?)

I think, in Australia, 72v is high and requires a qualified electrician....

kistinie

03-03-2009, 07:35 PM

kistinie

03-03-2009, 08:17 PM

Controlled Pitch Propeller

.......120 and 220 are AC, far less dangerous than DC................
and the statement above is just too broad to be true, as always, when it comes to boats and ships ... it depends.....
....

Regards
Richard

Electricity is wildly used to torture human beings, can the result of these experimentations be public in order two know what is a dangerous level DC, AC, low amps, high voltages, high frequencies...
More seriously, what is the medical documentation about the effect of electricity on body?

apex1

03-03-2009, 08:22 PM

what about 7 high skew blades submarine propellers , looks nice. Anybody can make some composite ones to pull our boats ?
20 to 40 cm diameter could fit many applications on leisure boats.
A good reliable low friction shaft with an end bearing is useful too. From here anything can be connected.
Even on a pod could be smart solution
Anyone tried this kind of 7skew propeller on a boat ?
The high voltage no regulation winners ! will go ! to :
http://www.darwinawards.com/

There are almost as many ideas as boats out there. Every type and size of prop was tested to some extend. Pods are really not new and sometimes choosen on Mega´s. (but have as many drawbacks as advantages).
A well designed prop, that fits the average use, is a good and affordable choice for EL propulsion. For a Diesel the CPP is the only choice for the real cruiser. The slightly higher investment pays back soon due to lower consumption and substantially healthier and longer engine life.

QUOTE --- Electricity is wildly used to torture human beings, can the result of these experimentations be public in order two know what is a dangerous level DC, AC, low amps, high voltages, high frequencies...
More seriously, what is the medical documentation about the effect of electricity on body? UNQUOTE

Interesting statements, but how deep will you go, if you examine the dangers of boating? Do´nt go too deep (just my recommendation), you might stay on the hard for the rest of your life. And that´s proven unsafe as well!
Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-03-2009, 08:46 PM

Interesting statements, but how deep will you go, if you examine the dangers of boating? Do´nt go too deep (just my recommendation), you might stay on the hard for the rest of your life. And that´s proven unsafe as well!
Regards
Richard

you are right, but don't Worry for me, I'm feeling great and not staying on the hard
i sail boats with more or less dangers,
You need to know that most women, child and i , prefer the boat without dangers :-)

apex1

03-03-2009, 09:11 PM

you are right, but don't Worry for me, I'm feeling great and not staying on the hard
i sail boats with more or less dangers,
You need to know that most women, child and i , prefer the boat without dangers :-)

A bottleship................................;)

We all would like to minimize risk to zero. The question is to wich extend is it possible without going absurd?
I like parachuting, motorbiking, flying my little plane, blue water cruising and the opposite sex. All unsafe, sometimes dangerous or even lethal. Does it make sense (for example) to reduce the power of my bike? No, others can kill me as well at 40kmh (one tried that) as at 240.
And if the source of electric propulsion (proper designed and installed) is the greatest danger you fear on your boat, why do you look for such system? You do´nt look for nuclear power, wich would be possible (in theory), and safer to handle during operation.
It´s not possible to have the best of both worlds, we just can choose the (in our opinion) lesser evil.
Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-03-2009, 09:16 PM

I'm afraid i do not understand, sorry !
My english fails, can you explain me better what this means "too broad to be true" and "it depends" for boat,

About maximum volts in a boat, again, in you country what is the maximum you can use in your bathroom when wet ?
Is that 12 or 24 V or more ?

Under heavy weather, the ship i have used looked much more like bathrooms playing with shower, than a house or a car .
50 / 60 feet boat and bigger are not that wet till late...But who owns more than 60 feet boats ?

masalai

03-03-2009, 09:34 PM

Here is an alternative, surface drive propeller, for small fishing craft in the Med or near Penang Malaysia? designed by Sonny Levi

kistinie

03-03-2009, 10:44 PM

nice object.
Very nice job

With a fairing ? To do a pump-jet ?
What could be the efficiency ?

Could be done something in this spirit with composites to be lighter and cheaper too ? (kiwi style prop)

masalai

03-04-2009, 04:13 AM

I doubt it - - unless your build budget is HUGE.... That is a 17 inch wheel and would work wonders on a boat one would expect to see with a "long-tail" in Thailand/Malaysia...

apex1

03-04-2009, 07:25 AM

nice object.
Could be done something in this spirit with composites to be lighter and cheaper too ?

Lighter yes, naturally, cheaper no, naturally not, three times the price is average.
As mentioned before: you cannot have best of both worlds! But that has nothing to do with boats, that´s life!
Can your Porsche transport a Fridge? Does your Transporter make 280kmh?

To your question above, I am producing for the world market, so, national regulations are not important for us, we have to stay whithin the international class rules. Our boats are 240/50 AC or 220/60 AC and 24 DC. My own is 400/240/50 AC / 48 DC.
For Diesel / El. propulsion I would go up to about 100V DC minimum. And that can be done as safe as every other installation.
But I assume you are mixing up the different El circuits in a boat. For "house" applications 12 or 24 DC are standard, and there is no senseful reason to go above, and I have never seen that.
I´m shure you do´nt see the engine room on a running boat as a nice playground for children, so, the Battery bank is neither.

Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-04-2009, 03:56 PM

Lighter yes, naturally, cheaper no, naturally not, three times the price is average.
As mentioned before: you cannot have best of both worlds! But that has nothing to do with boats, that´s life!
Can your Porsche transport a Fridge? Does your Transporter make 280kmh?

Regards
Richard
Yes, the Porsche Cayenne can !
But i do not need it.

I understand you better like this.
For mass production voltage will be high to be compatible with car batteries that are 100 - 250 volts. I agree.

But for such installation standard level will need to be high and signal warning marking compulsory ... just what industry usually does to reduce risks.

For all the others home made solutions 60V is great to have good results on light or small boats.
The smaller the boat is the closer you are to the wires !

Thanks for answer !

Kind regards

François

apex1

03-04-2009, 04:12 PM

For mass production voltage will be high to be compatible with car batteries that are 100 - 250 volts. I agree.
François

No Francois, no, first, ....car battery of 100 - 250 VOLTS ???? More likely Amps...?

And the choosen installations in our boats (which are never mass products, see my Gallery), have nothing to do with compatibility. DC is compatible to every system. Car batteries are usually not found on boats, thats crap.

I would really, strongly recommend to follow a given advice and to read the articles I linked to. Which obviously you have´nt done. What is our effort here worth, if it´s ignored.

Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-04-2009, 05:51 PM

No Francois, no, first, ....car battery of 100 - 250 VOLTS ???? More likely Amps...?

Regards
Richard

i was thinking to this kind of battery that goes to 374 volts
Batteries for electric cars

http://www.batscap.com/actualites/communiques/BlueCar_technic-04-2007.pdf

apex1

03-04-2009, 07:02 PM

i was thinking to this kind of battery that goes to 374 volts
Batteries for electric cars

http://www.batscap.com/actualites/communiques/BlueCar_technic-04-2007.pdf

Li Poly is a way to go, with a sophisticated power management system involved.
And there we are again:
Achieving the impossible................ is the name of the whitepaper.
It might be not convenient for you to stumble through 70 pages of a technical paper, but it is by far the best way to improve your knowledge within two hours. And for us it´s much easier to discuss at the same level of knowledge.

Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-04-2009, 07:32 PM

You are so kind to discuss with the ignorant i am, master.

Any battery needs management to live longer, a clever electronic manager can be the same price than a poor.

When 10 years of battery life is reached, cost is low per KW

I'm ready, i love reading :-)
Where are the 70 pages to read ?
So a link ? An FTP ?

Thank's Richard

apex1

03-04-2009, 07:40 PM

I'm ready, i love reading :-)
Where are the 70 pages to read ?
So a link ? An FTP ?

Thank's Richard

Just go back to one of my previous post, #206 two pages or so.
Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-04-2009, 08:05 PM

this :
http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20070607/
Page 82 ?

Oh yes i read it already.
Nice

i love page 94 also :-))
Work on co and co² intoxication inside boats with fuel engine is very interesting.

About above hybrid paper
Nice also the perverted job to look for the worst efficiency to compare hybrid figure cases that do not exist in true life

This article on hybrid is close to manipulation as it forgets to speak of the hundred of hours you will run on batteries, in port and short distances

it forgets all about the capital fact that you now have an hydro generator giving electricity, as much as 50% of rated power on fast multihulls...
Forgot this detail ? Strange work indeed ?

About bad efficiency in heavy sea ?

In heavy seas, sir, i sail, this is far much comfortable and safer...and without fuel.
this article tell us hybrid is low efficient if you never use batteries. What a study !

It is inefficient to motor in windy condition. Terrific discover !
Really, nice work but mammoth logic, and false conclusions.
The only thing this paper teach us is that "fuel burning" is not adapted to efficiency

Corrupted oil days are numbered said a smart post ...
I like this definition

In real life Richard, hybrid sailing boats are far more efficient than non hybrid
Any converted multihull is giving the same result : Much more comfortable, much cheaper to use and maintain.

And to go futher in the logic

I understand the need for hybrid, but i have learned sailing without a motor. I keep sailing this way with pleasure, so with an additional electric motor working for limited time periods is enought for my conception of what a sailing boat is.

a sailing boat is mainly powered by wind, not motor.
Motor is a ad_on, a help, a complement.
Hybrid trawler is different type of sailing boat i respect but it is not a possible choice as the efficiency for EB conversion is too law

Prefer simple light fast boat, petrol free, small electric help. A security with the tender outbord mounting point is inexpensive and enough for most
emergency cases
A fast light sailing boat is a safe reliable boat, getting much safer with short electric helps
This means that i accept to wait when there is no wind and no sun
And as soon as i find a light diesel 48V DC group, high performances including water exhaust injection, will paid for it and run it with any oil available, and no more than just a few litre a year..

Sorry i may be a little too radical, I've been thought sailing like this !
And the inside of my boat is too small
Having this giant 1GMYanmar inside was eating all my vital space !
Prefer without

electric motor is less than 30 cm/15Kg for 5 kw and can be installed protected
When boat is folded after a container crash by example, electricity can be dead but could probably still sail slowly, and doesn't sink so easily, it is the charm of multihulls !
IP68 motors or pods resist to water, if the battery is protected, electric motor still works, and heat less !
Electricity can be very safe and reliable too in water environement
Cats and tri are made to be electric because they are fast so use less, produce more, hardly sink if they remain light

Just batteries means more available space and less or same weight at a much more central place!

Wingover is perfect for hybrid mainly without oil.
Since this picture i took out 400 Kg of extra weight of all kind
Stainless steal, brass, iron, water sleeping small corner, 70 litre fuel tank...some rotten wood too !
Just miss some volume at stern, both amas and central hull. This is the big summer job... with electric propulsion of course
A lot to do, but i guess performance will be very good
It will be a very fast sail and electric boat

And for info, even at 1500€ (so a 1/10 of new price) two complete 1GM YANMAR with accessories, brass folding propeller, (the one inside and the spare) i have difficulties to resale these 2 old engines ...!
Bad sign for diesel propulsion

apex1

03-05-2009, 03:49 AM

Now I have a clue what you are going for.
Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-05-2009, 04:43 AM

Now I have a clue what you are going for.
Regards
Richard

This is WINGOVER
And will give new PICs when going on. ProVu, another much lighter 2 tonnes F40 tri, could be done this this year also...if the economy doesn't collapses before, of course .

To sum up my actual vision for small boats and hybrid is:

"A plan' is full electricity, no oil
small light narrow boats are good candidate for non hybrid full electric choice
A soltion is starting with DC brushed motor, mechanical controller or electronic PMW, very safe if pure mechanical well done, optional regen MPPT controller can be added. This is demonstrated by OZ MARINE in sweeden with a smart mechanical shifter that can last for years. Emergency direct drive is always possible. Direct driving is a good solution as brush life is 2000 to 5000 hours.

A' is brushless PMAC with Sensor controller, sensorless if proven to be managing quick starts, 60 votls max, 50 better because you still get a lot of power sources to connect. But in this case controller is compulsory...a spare one is not idiot ...can be the stern pump Thruster' controller if exist, will be the same.

Pod give you plenty of space and very low noise and if high voltage, safer for you because outside.

For for both AC and DC, short and twisted cables to limit EM inductive pollution of navigation equipments
A galvanic separation helps a lot
These A type installations can be done full IP 65 to 68.

8 to 24 poles motors, shafts, big end bearings and belt reduction, high efficiency propellers, mechanic and electronic controllers, industrial basic products are needed,
Any Bearing should have a grease access to clean salt out. Then can be used for 50 years or more. We can do such products for the same cost. Every 100 or more hours clean grease and condensation and go for again and again. Life time bearing is this way on earth, in space you can use ceramics :-)
But these products are not here, slowing down development, what are we waiting for to produce these things ? The actual industry encouragements, the "oil engines" manufacturer's subventions and advices ?
The Mammoth kiss maybe ?

If, "A plan" is broken or empty, we go to B plan !

"B Plan"
The axe/Tender's outboards- unbeatable price because you already have it. Can can be a real pain in the arms and neck when single handed ! Do not forget to test your emergency solutions before you need them :-)

"C plan"
is a conventional portable group with a DC charger or a "quattro victron"'s style box, but not 4k€ 0.4K€ is better ...Giving 3 kw is ok to keep on moving at low speed a light boat, cost 1 litre per hour

"Plan D"
light low volts generator, very small and efficient 28 / 56v left outside removable, simple.
Plane or forklift industrial connector DC28V
Will cable amps lost be worst than a DC charger ? Could be close, but "D" just more simple as direct to batteries.

Motor Controller should be both 220AC and DC.

Think small and light, this is less expensive and safer.
And we are poor now, no choice
Times of river of gold for pleasure craft is over
A good source of inspiration for designing electric solution that do not fail is to look at the planes solutions.
Any case of failure is secured by another equipment, till all is down
Boats have the lucky advantage to have time to stop and do repairs :-)

Plan E, is to go sleeping

Used to be that ...
Nice and pleasant presence don't you think ?
And what a nice CO/CO2 water muffler producer we have here !

M-Sasha

03-06-2009, 08:42 AM

İ am not shure that you did follow all the links apex posted! But would recommend to do, he really knows what he ıs talking about.

Sasha

kistinie

03-06-2009, 09:54 AM

İ am not shure that you did follow all the links apex posted! But would recommend to do, he really knows what he ıs talking about.

Sasha

Yes ! Could be i may have missed things !

Why don't you make a summery here with a few recalls for beginners like me

Just the main links + a few comments on what it is is great about idea or principal

Many thanks will appreciate !
But once again i am only interested in non fuel solutions.
Fuel hybrid, Fuel + CPP, wonderfull, Lister, in England 60's, used to do great CPP motors

This doesn't mean it is not a good solutions, CPP are great for any propulsion, i just want to do without oil as much as possible,
i give you good money for a light super efficient marine 3/4 Kw DC 50 V group, i do not need anything more oil based in a boat

will keep CPP of course when budget is less tight

Even the names do not match " Dieselsail" impossible to say ...without spitting

Compare, say electric sail ! Makes you smile !
It works ! Makes u happy

It is a choice, just like apple or banana.
A principle, an idiot strong, choice i admit !

So my principle will be a sailing boat with auxiliary electric propulsion being, IP68 on 1 metre high inside for more than 24 hours.
That is to say it works as much as you need folded by 1 meter of water inside hull.
this is a good simulation of a boat in heavy difficulties.
This goal is very easy to achieve in an electric multihull.

My cost will compulsory have to be under the cost of an identical IP 68, 65 fuel solution.
If i can stay close to 6k$ including windmill, for 5 Kw, trust 180 lbs nominal, 40 cool cruising, can do double nominal trust for short periods 2/10 minutes
Autonomy is deep as your pocket is.
Mine is tight, so my autonomy will only be above 1 hour full, 5 cool.

Labour should be light too, very basic qualifications, and low hours to install the equipment.
The time i spend on internet has to be compensated this way :-)

Will be fine for me and the 40 feet/3tones to move I'm sure... as i already sail 5 Knts 4 adults in light air (6/7 Knts).

If your boat is light, electricity is realistic choice, if heavy and fast (with sails :-) ok, if heavy and slow...open a restaurant inside ?

But the big thing about a sailing boat, is that you must learn how to use it

Sail+electricity is a great association, with the big drawback that you must know how to ...Sail
You cannot sell a electric-sailing boat to an incompetent or a guy in hurry, because the incompetent fails when he use the sails and the hurry one wants to go 20 Knts when he decides
With fuel or diesel hybrid, you can satisfy nice persons like you and me but also the incompetent and the rabbit.

Windmill boats will certainly clear this problem, i think
But some sail should be kept for side and down wind without ...Noise, including infra spectra very rich close to mills.

http://forum.go-here.nl/viewforum.php?f=35

Do our solutions, we will see !

apex1

03-06-2009, 02:30 PM

quote:
Why don't you make a summery here with a few recalls for beginners like me
quote

Because I do´nt have the time, that´s it.
But I pointed to these links several times, the task to come to valuable conclusions has to be undertaken by each individual himself, naturally.

Regards
Richard

kistinie

03-06-2009, 03:50 PM

To go in your way, my solution is poor to go up a river, would need fuel then to run a 2 or 3kw 50V CC generator to feed batteries. light clever one with water injection exhaust are enough
water injection in a motor is surprising !
Used at the inlet and the outlet too.

in admission chamber
Used by Renault with first F1 turbo motors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
Fresh water only i think

in exhaust gazes
http://www.msdpowersports.com/pwc_waterinjection.html
Great effect ! Cost ...Fresh water. May work with salt also

Now on a river i can get electricity at night also
But ok, will keep a corner outside near the tail, for a fuel generator direct DC. It is a good security for low cost.

What other problem do you see to my choice ?

I'm stopped when no wind for more than 12 hours at night, yes.
Then i read and sleep, do cleaning, check oil leaks on the engine, no ! Being stopped a day is nothing but a cool day like another.
if you cant stand that start a micro fuel generator high efficiency water injected.
fuel is for emergency only, but admit it can be many emergencies, money, heart...

I see another one
i bother the mammoth, and it is bad idea to disturb the mammoth when he sleeps.
But as mammoth are in crisis at their size (some say they lost all their reserves), they do not sleep anyway !
Time to do new things it seems.

What other vital problem could you see ?
It will help me, do not hesitate , i like to get other's opinions.

About link i love this one about wind cars and bike and planes !
http://knol.google.com/k/gaby-de-wilde/the-wind-powered-car-project/1yrf1mzjtxzk5/8#

apex1

03-11-2009, 11:41 AM

Oh yes i read it already.
Nice

Nice as well, that you completely EDIT you posts after gaining some knowledge, to contradict in a senseful way!
You act as a child.

kistinie

04-01-2009, 04:34 PM

Nice as well, that you completely EDIT you posts after gaining some knowledge, to contradict in a senseful way!
You act as a child.

Thanks for this kind compliment
I keep on editing my work and knowledge, yes that is right.
I also edit my work because i an never pleased with my work, i always think i can do better.
This is called progress and freedom
I edit all that needs to be improved, including my ideas and old objects to give them a second life.

So i edit and refit my trimaran with double hybrid propulsion.
Sail/electric
Electric/petrol hybrid was avoided at the beginning of my project, but is coming back in the solution as my next mooring will be on a river and i am not certain to get big enough lithium batteries park for motoring against winter stream.
Another interesting aspect is the possibility of direct mechanical drive of propeller by the generator ICE used as a safety device.

For weight and size reasons i do not think i will use diesel generator, but rather an unleaded, high speed to keep it small

So as you can see i edit my project too
Sorry if you do not feel comfortable with this, my aim is not to disturb you.

This being said, i have a question that you may answer

What would be the technology and cost for a VPP to accept...5Kw ?