Looking for the right path to design and build

[ben_morel]

Hi,
First, I would like to present myself : I have a Master in Engineer (hydro & mecanics), but I am not working in the naval industry. I have more than ten years of experience, and I have my own company.

My hobby: Doing a lot of sailing but on small craft.

My objective : Designing and building my own boat (50 to 60 feet long) - I have 3 kids - for a circumnavigation.
I like doing things myself, so for now, I don't want to buy a boat. I like the challenge, and I have time.

My objective is not to become a famous Naval Designer. My objective is to live my dreams with my familly.


The constraints : Even if I am engineer, the knowledge you learn are not enough to design and build a boat with no direction and experience. So I am looking for a way to learn the missing knowledge (practical stuff).

Of course, if I want to leave one day, I must continue developing my company. So the course must be adapted for professional, and it must be distance learning.

The only school I know that could meet these criteria is Westlawn.
And it could be a fit. But I am looking for other experiences.
Any suggestion of a training course .....
Thanks.

[Raggi_Thor]

Take a look at MacNaughton,
http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/school.htm

I don't know what material and style you prefer, maybe you would like to read Bueler's "Backyard boatbuilding" or something like that?

But I would advice you to buy a set of stock plans if you find something that is close enough to what you want.

[MikeJohns]

Ben

Welcome, could do with some more engineers around here !

With your background you should find that you will learn more from a few good books on the subject than from a course designed for unqualified novices.

For a start read Dave Gerr's "Elements of boat strength" and obtain Piere Gutelle " Design of sailing yachts" that will give you as good a knowledge levelas anyone else has in this field. The rest is prejudice. A really good primer is a little but very good book by John Teale called "How to design a boat" you should also get your hands on a few other titles but start with those above.

If you choose to design a metal boat then you can use your usual tools such as FEA to assist in much of the design. Most design is simple linear mathematics , an understanding of moments, section moduli, and sensible load transfer. Prediction of loads can be a problem in a complex dynamic environment, as an engineer you have to learn to turn to tabulated data on what has worked historically as a design basis.

You also need to get yur hands on a good 3d CAD package and a hydrostatics module. Such as Rhino and Rhino marine or the Maxsurf suite.

feel free to email me (click on my user name above) for queries where and when you get stuck.

[CDBarry]

Here's a reasonable list:

Hamlin's book, ("Preliminary Design of Boast and Ships"), Larson and Eliasson's book, and maybe one on fishing vessel design published in the UK (don't have the name and author, but it was an FAO project).

The scantling process is from ABS rules (www.eagle.org), you don't need FEA.

Go to the SNAME website and look around too.

[ben_morel]

Hi all,
Thanks for the answers.
If I understand, most of you thinks self-study with books is enough.
But even if I am engineer, I don't think that means I have all the right knowledge to design and build my boat.
Yes, I am pretty sure I have all the math and physics knowledge. But I am not sure it is enough.
Specially after working 10 years in another field.

So, does it worth it to study with a school ?
Maybe the investment in a school may be interesting compared to the time and money I'll lose if I study by myself, with a try and error strategy.
In one of the previous post, Westlawn is described to be for "unqualified novices".
When I read the program of the studies, it looks pretty good.
And it is a 2 years long course.
It is difficult to imagine it is so bad.
Is it because of a war between engineers and the others...

Can I have more details, inmput on that ?

Thanks,
Benoit

[Raggi_Thor]

Well, I am looking at the first two lessons of MacNaughton's school. Even if I am a Naval Architect or Marine Engineers (Msc) graduated 12 years ago, I find it very interesting. There is a lot of details regarding sailing vessels and small boats that I never learnt at the university. Even if I have read a few meters (many feet!) of books the last 20 years, I find something new and interesting in these two lessons, and I suppose doing my homework and get some comments will be great fun :-) Finally, you can buy just two lessons and then see what you think. And NO, I am not payd by MacNaughton.

[Willallison]

I would both agree and disagree with Mike's (Johns) post above. All the information you need is readily available in books - some of which are mentioned above.
The problem is ensuring that you have accumulated and understood all the necessary information. This is where schools such as those mentioned can help.
I am working my way through the final exam of the Westlawn course. I've enjoyed (almost) every minute of it and have learned a great deal. I also understand thet there is still a great deal more for to learn;) . For a start, let me assure you that if you intend to continue working and doing Westlawn part time it will take you more than 2 years. Bank on at least 4. Also, I think you'd be starting the course at a good time - since the ABYC took 'control' of Westlawn and brought Dave Gerr on board there has been a rapid updating of all the course material - which I think even the school would agree was long overdue. On completing the course, could I design a boat capable of taking my family and I around the world? Yes.
As far as YDS (McNaughton) goes, I can't comment. I'm sure the course content is there. I chose Westlawn because I felt that it had a better reputation internationally. No, perhaps that's overstating it a bit - let's say I get the impression that the Westkawn course would hold me in better stead when it come time to apply for work in the industry....
So, yes, you can find all the info you need without attending any of the schools - so long as you know what to look for.....

[CDBarry]

It's worth noting that, among other working designers, Bob Perry is self-educated in boat design, and didn't even start with an engineering degree.

I also know of several engineers and scientists in other fields (and one lawyer, and one vet, and even an actor) who have designed and built their own boats, including at least one serious maxi class racer.

You can get most of what you need out of the literature, and you can probably get the rest free out of personal conversations with naval architects (hence the SNAME contact - go to a section meeting). If you are on the East Coast try to make the CSYS and get some contacts.

Also, check out www.proboat.com and www.ibexshow.com

[ben_morel]

Thanks Will,

I know now much better where I am going to.
Will, You told me that I should start the course at the right time, because the course material is evolving a lot.

What do you mean by right time ?
Now, In 3 months, 1 year, 2 years ....

Thanks,
Benoit

[Raggi_Thor]

I think he means that now is mucher better than a while ago, because Gerr is there now.

[nero]

There is a steep curve to starting your project ... and the learning will keep on until the end. Finding what type of boat you want, the method and material. Then you can start your design. I started off on this adventure a few years back.

I choose wood strip planking sheathed with fiberglass because I am on on a budget and wanted curved, smooth hulls.

For software I had VectorWorks CAD. I bought TouchCad. TouchCad is/was the least expensive of marine design software for OS X. It has turned out to be an accurate, powerful modeler for boats also.

Had a conversation with Mr. MacNaughton also. Very helpfull, sincere, honest man.

Read a few books. Surfed the net. Bought some study plans of somewhat simular boats. All this wil give you a global veiw of the project that is in front of you.

have fun

[Willallison]

Yes - as Raggi suggested - I did mean that now is a much better time to start than before - and I would expect that things will continue to improve as Dave and his team continue to update everything.
Something else to consider is whether you really want to do all the design yourself. With a little research you should be able to come up with a rough preliminary design that you could either look for a similar stock design , or take to a designer to have the design finalised. It would probably still cost less that going thru the schoolong process....
Then again - if you're like me, it is the design phase of the boat that I find most rewarding.....

[nero]

If you want to make one boat for yourself then there is no need for going to school. If you want to become a NA then go to school.

Important note is that boat design is an art.

How far off base are these statements?

[Raggi_Thor]

I agree with Nero.
If you want to design just one boat, you can learn the stuff you need to know for this particular design, you don't need to become a "generalist" in yacht design. Maybe that's also one typical difference between "autodidact" designers and those who have studied at a school or university, the self made designer will tend to design boats within a special style or cathegory?

[ben_morel]

Hi All,

So, if I want to summarize all this information.
If I want to become a ND, Westlawn is a very good school.
But it is time consumming, and I learn a lot of stuff I won't need for my project.

But because I am very busy with my company + familly
And because my objective is to design and build my own boat, and not to become a ND, then I should consider self-learning.
I could design the boat by myself.
Spend the money I'll save from the school in books and a good CAD software.

I could also use the services of a ND for the validation of the plans, if necessary.

At the end, I'll save time and money, but I'll still have the challenge and pleasure of designing and building.

In that case, can I have your advices concerning where and how to start.
I have heard about Gutelle's book.
Are they good?
Do you have a list of book I could use. Even if I am engineer, I prefer to consider myself as a beginner.

And for the CAD, do you know a good one, not too difficult to learn.
And I think not too difficult to learn is an important criteria.
From a conversation with a french ND, I heard about MAAT (CIRCE 3D I think).
But on this web site, They mostly talk about Rhino.

Any thoughts...
Thanks,
Ben

[ben_morel]

A question for Will, and all of you,

Will explained Westlawn is a lot of work.
I have a familly and a lot of work.
So my plan was doing westlawn part time.
Can you please give me more details concerning the work load for westlawn.
How many hours per week for how many years?
Type of work: is it mostly reading and Computer based work?, or a lot of drwing work?
Is it a work you can split in 1 or 2 hours per day, or do you need long long duration without interruption (for drawing for instance).

This question because it is quite easy to find a couple of hours in the evening.
But with a familly and 3 young boys, it is difficult to find 5 or more hours without interruption.

Thanks,
Benoit

[Willallison]

Ben,
Through the 4+ years that it has taken me (or will have shortly) to complete the Westlawn course I've finished building a house, had two children, moved to another house and started renovating it. As you can imagine, it's not that often that I can find 5 hrs straight to sit down in front of a computer (or drawing board). I manage 2 -3 hrs at night, after the kids (and wife) have gone to bed.
When I started, it was not a requirement that you do any computer based design at all - and certainly from your point of view, you can draw one boat quicker by hand than the time it will take to master CAD and produce the same boat. Having said that, it is now a requirement of the course that about the last 2/3rds is done using CAD - this is because in professional practice you most definitely need to be profficient in the use of CAD.
I'd suggest talking to the school for more course specific stuff - they're easy to talk to and happy to help.

One other thing - it's true that by doing something like Westlawn you will learn how to design in materials other than those you will end up building in - but unless you understand the advantages and disadvantages of all the different building techniques / materials, how will you know which best suits your own project?

[cyclops]

Willallison has hit the bulls eye of the do it your self problem. Unless you are a wood-steel-Aluminum or fiberglass old fart like me. You have a great deal of materials and all their interacting characteristics to learn. After you acquire the knowledge you need, some special equipment is needed, other than the familiar tools of the old 4 materials. Never, has the "do it your selfer ", felt like the last dinosaur on earth. Progress waits for no one.

[ben_morel]

Hi All,

I am going to contact the school for more detail.
But Will, can you also share your experience with me.
Your family life looks like mine. So Your experience must be valuable for me.
When you say 2-3 hours per night. Do you mean each night?
Can you please give me the average workload of a typical week?

I understand all the benefits I could have from the westlawn in terms of knowledge, and that's why I am interested in it.

Will, are you already working in the Naval industry?
What are your plans after westlawn?

In Westlawn web site, they say that the course should take 2400 hours.
So it is 600 hours per session.
so an average of 12 hours per week during 4 years.

Will, does it correspond to your experience ?

Thanks,
Ben

[Willallison]

Recently the school introduced a time log for students to fill in and submitt with each lesson - they would have a much a much better idea than me how long it takes to get through the various bits.
Having said that, I guess 12 hrs per week would probably be about right - perhaps somewhat on the high side. It really depends on the level of knowledge and experience that you already have. I was brought up around boats and have been drawing them since before I could walk, so a lot of the techniques and information were already familiar to me. On the other side of the coin, my computer skills could at best be described as limited, so mastering CAD has been (and still is) the greatest challenge for me as far as the course goes. If you have some experience - particularly with AutoCAD (or its equivalent) then you'll be way ahead of the eight ball. In talking with other students CAD has been the biggest hurdle for them too.

Setting aside the final exam (because as part of it I'm trying to design the boat that I'd like to build, so it's taking a LONG time...) I rarely found that the time required to do the course was too difficult to find. There were times when I'd sit down religiously each night and do 2 or 3 hrs work. There were a few occaisions when I didn't get anything done for a month or more. Occaisionaly, I'd find a weekend where I had the house to myself and I'd manage to fit in a full days study... but that has certainly been the exception rather than the rule.
No, I'm not in the industry - well I am sort of - as a consumer!!:D I work in a family business which deals in industrial chemistry. Drawing boats (and playing in them) is my 1st love (closely followed by the wife and kids;) ) so with any luck I'll be able to pursue it, if not as a full time career then at least as a serious professional hobby....

[Raggi_Thor]

There are so many good books...
There is a tiny book written by a Teal, "How to design a boat", with a lot of practical advice. Then it depends on what kind of boat you want and the materials you will use.

Rhino is great if have you a clear picture of the hull form, I mean as a sketch or in your head. Prolines and Naval Designer is maybe better for initial design, where you try different shapes and look at the hydrostatics. RhinoMarine is a nice add on to Rhino, giving you more hydrostatics and a quick method for sectioning (takes 5 minutes manually in Rhino).

[ben_morel]

Hi Will and Raggi,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
For my part, I don't have a huge background in the boat design. It became a Hobby, and maybe more than just a hobby...
I read a few books like "Design of sailing boat" - Pierre Guttelle, and others...
Concerning the CAD, as an engineer, I have experience with Autocad and Finite elements methods.
and I am now working in the Computer technology.
So I don't think CAD will be a major issue.

Yesterday, I sent a mail to Westlawn, asking for more details concerning the course schedule and workload.

I would like to do westlawn not to work in naval industry, but just because I want to know as much as possible. My goal is really to design and build my boat. I am pretty sure I can do the design on my own, just with books, but maybe it is not the right way to master a subject. And doing self-learning can be very time consuming also. I don't like the "try and error" strategy for a sail boat ;-))

and I want to be able to explain to my family how I will be able to manage everything before taking this engagement. I don't want to realize after 6 months that westlawn is to time consuming for my family. The try would be expensive in that case.

Thanks,
Benoit

[JasonR]

Benoit -
I don't know the number of Westlawn folks at this site, but I am a new student in Westlawn (only a few months). I have to say that my experience so far has been very positive. It appears that I share a similar profile to you and Will - I have a good day job, but really like boats and want to design my own boat from the ground up. If at some point down the road a can make a dollar or two at it, then all the better. Frankly, the biggest stress so far has been on deciding which software to use! So many choices and such incomplete knowledge. (And I'm not to even allowed to use CAD for my Westlawn work at this point.)

Good luck in whatever you decide.
Jason

[ben_morel]

Hi All,

I am very close to the decision now.
And I think I'll go for the westlawn.
For the last step, I try to organize my life so the impact won't be too important.
Westlawn replied to my mail. They suggest :
400 hours to module 1
1000 for module 2
1000 for module 3
350 for module 4

Will, Is it relevant with your experience?

Jason, just for the information, which software did you choose finally.

Ben

[JasonR]

Ben -
I haven't picked software, yet. One of confounding problems is I really like the mac world I've lived in for 20 years. If forced to go the PC route, I will do it, but I would prefer not to. But even in the PC world there are so many choices.

Great info. on the time estimates - I hadn't seen the estimates before. It will be interesting to see if they agree with what Will has seen. Of course, there is 'extra' time involved like fretting and testing software, learning CAD, and reading boatdesign forums that probably aren't in the estimates.

jason

[Raggi_Thor]

For MAC: Take a look at TouchCAD from ludesign.se, many posts here also.

[JasonR]

Thanks Raggi_Thor. I haven't tested it yet, but watched one of the demo movies. Looks promising. It also, appears to have a good reputation. I am in no rush, so I will wait awhile until I purchase. For example, the lattest Ashlar newsletter mentions (as does the Boatdesign participant Timm) that they are developing more vehicle design features, including those for Yachts.

jason

[chandler]

I'd suggest multisurf for software,Skenes elements of yacht design will give you pretty much all the math you'll need and chapelle's yacht design and planning will give you the step by step. Depending on how technical you want to get.
Gutelle is fine if you want something really fast and are into hydrostatic mumbo jumbo. I like gerrs elements of boat strength but for some reason Mcnaughton recomends against it, perhaps because he published his own book on scantlings, You know anything about that Raggi?

Ultimately, with your engineering background, find an existing design you really like, read a couple books and modify the design to suit your needs.
Chandler

[Willallison]

I would imagine that the time estimates that Westlawn have given you are based on the time sheets that students have submitted, so they are probably a good average. In my case, I'd be surprised if I'd spent 1000 hrs on each of modules 2 & 3, but I guess if you take into account learning CAD (which the time estimates are s'posed to) then it may have been that long. Mod 4 is the only one that I've actually kept track of my time in: I'm approaching a couple of hundred hrs and I'm almost 1/2 way through the final exam, so 350 is probably pretty close to the mark (assuming I pass of course!!:D )
As far as software goes, you'll need AutoCAD, plus a hull fairing program. I like Multisurf the best, but it's hellishly expensive - over the top for an owner builder for sure. Maxsurf comes pretty highly recommended though I haven't had much experience with it myself. Prosurf certainly represents excellent value and will more than do the job. Download a few of the demo's (free) and see which suits your way of thinking (and budget) best.
I'd also recommend getting Rhino as a general 3D modelling tool. Most hull surfacing programs are crap when it comes to modelling anything other than hulls - like superstructures etc. Many use it for the hull modelling as well.

[Raggi_Thor]

I'm not sure why MacNaughton doesn't like Gerr's book.
Maybe it is based on (too) detailed estimates on loads, that we don't know for sure? I'll ask.

Software:
Prolines and Naval Designer is quite inexpensive in their basic versions.
Then you have FreeShip, I am testing it right now and it looks quite all right.

A reasonable package would be, Freeship (or simmilar low cost program) for initial hull design and hydrostatics, then move to Rhino for detailed modelling, then section everything and move to IntelliCAD (AutoCAD clone) for detailed 2D drawings and cnc files (suppose you want to have all internal structure ready cut, it costs about the same as large plots on mylar).

[Raggi_Thor]

I got as usual a qiuck answer from Tom MacNaughton.
I suppose it's OK that I paste a part of his answer:

"Despite a great deal of hard work on Mr. Gerr's part, which is admirable,
we cannot endorse a book which so heavily contradicts conventional
engineering science and the principles of structural analysis. Without
suggesting in any way that our own writings are without flaw, we would like
to see this book withdrawn from the market until it can be brought into
conformance with conventional engineering practice."

[MikeJohns]

from Tom MacNaughton..........


"Despite a great deal of hard work on Mr. Gerr's part, which is admirable,
we cannot endorse a book which so heavily contradicts conventional
engineering science and the principles of structural analysis. ........."

I have compared Gerrs scantling rules for steel vessels in the 50 foot range with other scantling rules and found his to be more than adequate being equal to that required by commercial vessels in survey. For other construction I cannot comment.

[chandler]

Raggi
It appears as though neither gerr nor mcnaughton are engineers. They both call themselves naval architects. Gerr from westlawn, mcnaughton from Ted Brewer, however I don't believe either has a university degree in "naval architecture" such as offered by say MIT or Michigan.
So if we are studying YDS's curriculum, when we finish, can we actually call ourselves "naval architects", or would the term designer be more appropriate?
In the U.S., an architect is licensed, however anyone can call themselves a designer.
I guess what I'm getting at is, are either of them qualified to publish what is essentially an engineering text book?
So anyway, how's the course going? I'm going to get back into it shortly as I have a design in the works and it will probably be cheaper to finish the course and get the benefit of Tom's critique than pay an architect. Besides I don't really care about the degree,I just find the topic interesting
Chandler

[Raggi_Thor]

Chandler, scantlings for pleasure boats can be a problem if you want to use rules from ABS, DNV etc. Wooden boats built to DNV's rules will be very heavy, useful for a 40 feet fishing boat of traditional construction, but not for a modern strip planked sailing yacht.
In the US I think you can do a test to become a licensed nav. arch?
I am still to busy to do much with course :-(

[CDBarry]

In most US states, strictly speaking, a P.E. license is required to offer engineering services to the public. Most states license all engineers as "engineers" and not in specific disciplines (just like lawyers and doctors, for example - they don't license pediatricians separately from internists). These states allow as part of the whole process, taking a "Principles and Practice" examination specific to Naval Architecture/Marine Engineering. Though these states do not restrict disciplines, engineers are not supposed to practice outside of their expertise (even within a discipline), and there are severe penalties for doing so.

A few states (CA, OR, WA, RI, that I know of) have specific disciplines and in these you have to take the specific exam in that discipline, and the license is distinguished by discipline. As far as I know, only WA and OR have a specific NAME discipline (and have for many decades).

As to calling yourself a naval architect, this could be (and has been) held as one means of offering engineering services to the public, and could be controlled. Calling yourself a yacht designer is not generally controlled, since this is drafting services, not engineering. provided you don't describe the work as engineering otherwise.

It is also unlawful to practice engineering, with numerous exemptions, without a license, regardless of how it is described. However, in general US laws have as their basis "public safety", so in general, practice of yacht design is not controlled, as it only involves private parties, not "innocent" public third parties (that is third parties to the designer/builder/owner contract).

This is fairly complicated area of the law and getting more so. Maine recently passed a law that "working on boats under 200 feet" was exempt, but this may not mean offers are uncontrolled, nor does it define "working" as including "...performing engineering calculations and analyses to validate compliance with legal standards to protect public safety...", which is what "engineering" is under the law. This may also change in view of the Ethan Allen accident. This is precisely the sort of event that licensure is supposed to prevent.

As to Westlawn and YDS, they are not ABET recognized, nor are they equivalent under the law, so neither would count in applying for a P.E., noting that some states do not require a degree for licensure. Thus the term yacht designer would be appropriate unless licensed or otherwise qualified as a real naval architect.

As far as writing a book, anyone can do so, whether it is about engineering or ancient astronauts. It doesn't have to be right, and the individual doesn't have to be qualified in any way.

Go to www.ncees.org and www.nspe.org for more information.

[chandler]

Thanks for the response raggi and cd barry.
So cd, while on the subject,from your bio I assume you have a degree in Naval Architecture. What do you think of westlawn or mcnaughton? I'm not talking about becoming a naval architect, more as a design tool or instruction.

[CDBarry]

As a more convenient alternative, possibly more appropriate for your purposes and background, I would suggest that you educate yourself by reading, and find a mentor who is an experienced naval architect to help you and guide you. Here I would suggest someone who is not currently in the small craft industry (retired and/or in the military, commercial, or academic side), so it would be a hobby for them as well. In this regard, go to a local SNAME meeting, contact the Sailing Yacht panel of SNAME (see posts) and go to the CSYS.

[chandler]

Thanks CDBarry, actually I live about 15 minutes from the landing school, you suppose thier design program would be interested in critiquing?
Unfortunately I don't have the time or the money to actually enroll there.

[CDBarry]

You might be able to find a (or group of) student to work with at the Landing School, perhaps even with the School's support.

I would think that actually working with a real client might be a very good exercise for the students.

However, I have no real contacts there. On the other hand, if you are serious about working with someone in general, I can ask around for someone who is looking for some hobby work.

[bobothehobo]

Chandler, I am currently a student in the Design Program at The Landing School.
If you would like to discuss anything about the program or a project you are working on send me a PM.

Cheers,
BC

[D'ARTOIS]

I believe that Mike and CD Barry gave you the most feasible answers, although - every member tried to give you their best advise.

At least, you did not approach us in the usual way "Hello, I want to build a 25 meter yacht, please tell me how to do it."

I have a degree in egineering, but only practised it when I came back from Africa, totally broke. (Long time ago) In Europe, there are no such institutions like Westlawn and to learn to design AND BUILD a yacht, you have to do it by yourself or you have to find a job on a shipyard or designer's office.

First of all, yacht design is a matter of art, material knowledge, basic engineering and a lot of enthousiasm.

As everybody says, books do a lot. As being an engineer you understand math as well as you know how to work in AC, well if you know that already the rest will not be that difficult. The hull is engineered in programs like Max Surf or similar programs, there are many and it is a matter of preference which one you finally will take.
Look into an engineering program and not in a modellin program: Rhino is a modelling program but won't give you engineering solutions.

Furthermore: there is a distinctive difference between theory and practice.
My friend Mike and Wynand will agree with that. Both know boatbuilding also from the practical side, like also CD Barry and Raggi Thor.

Be practical if you require to build only one boat for yourself, not being a Naval Architect.
If you want to be a Naval Architect, you must also learn to calculate fast moving surface craft, and not only sailboats but also commercial vessels and I am sure that is not what you want.

Keep focussed on your target. Check with designers that produce the boat you like successfully. Talk as much as possible with professional people and try to see what they are doing on the yard.
Start to focus on your boat, building material, environment, autonomy etc.
Use that as a basis and build your technology around. I had the opportunity to look into the best yards Holland posesses. To see their production process, to talk with the management and to learn from their decisions.

Remind that there always two sides - what you learn in theory and what is practice.

You have to see the workfloor; you have to see how yachts are made in the different materials available, but I believe you will succeed!

[chandler]

Thank you all for the encouragement, just finished my second lofting floor, first one too flimsy,( and I build homes for a living!). I will succeed!
Thanks
Chandler

[chandler]

Oh!
By the way to all those in the US, Happy Thanksgiving! To all those abroad, Happy Holidays!

[ben_morel]

Hi all,
Thanks for all your responses.
I am going to register to Westlawn.
I talked with instructor and exchanged several e-mails.
I have a very good feeling that it will help me in the project.

I'll keep you updated on how it goes.
Ben

[Willallison]

Best of luck with it Ben - make sure you keep us posted....
and I think you'll find (as I have) that everyone who participates here are very generous when it comes to helping out, whether they are fans of Westlawn or not. I certainly couldn't have made it to the end of the course without them all:p