Bristol Channel Cutter with a cute Butt

[kudu]

Hello All...I'm trying to locate plans for a stout 28' to 30' Bristol Channel Cutter look alike with a double ended stern. So far have I've had no luck. Though I appreciate the features of the BCC, can't justify the price! Any ideas where I might find plans for such a solid sea worthy boat? Thanks

[FAST FRED]

Maurice Griffiths was a very prolific designer and wrote many books on sail boat design.

You might check with the librarys loan service , and see what they can find.

Doubble enders are slower than transom boats , but I believe he did some with pointy sterns.

FAST FRED

[Bergalia]

Kudu - try a web search for Bristol Pilot Cutter. Your description of a double ender sounds as though it would fit this craft. Adding 'Channel' may confuse the 'engine.'
And as for Fast Fred's assertion that 'double enders' are slower than transom craft. Don't know which double enders you've sailed, but all I can say is they must have been badly trimmed or handled, or both. :confused:

[SailDesign]

Don't know which double enders you've sailed, but all I can say is they must have been badly trimmed or handled, or both.
Don't make me agree with you, now, Bergalia... :)

[Bergalia]

Sorry Saildesign - a momentary lapse. I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.... (mutters left of stage...'double enders slower than transom boats..'... double Pah...double humbug....)
But back to Kudu's query.
Bill Tilman was a great fan of the Bristol Cutter - he owned three. For a bit more detail on these beautiful little gaff-rigged craft you might try:

www.complay.net/tilman/body_sea_breeze

Great photographs - but unfortunately no plans.
Bear in mind it's best part of two decades since I lived in the UK, but you might also contact the City of Bristol Museum (I'm sure they have a web site) and will probably be glad to point you in the right direction (builders, privately owned craft etc - even model builders so you can scale up the plans). Anyway, good luck. She's a classic craft and in my youth (turn of the 18th century) I can remember them ploughing through the channel, on our way to Cardiff and all points Welsh... :rolleyes:

[Vega]

Not really a Cutter, but close.
http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/imagesheets/103-pic.html

[Bergalia]

So close as to make little difference, Vega. Beautiful, and dressed for the ball...Well spotted. ;)

[kudu]

Many thanks to everyone that responded! Vega, that double ender from Burnett Yacht Design is flirtin' with perfection! She is soooo sweet from both ends! Any idea what her length might be? I'm going to investigate further...Thanks again

[Bergalia]

Pssstttt...Kudu - Vega prefers to be called Paulo...it's his boat which is Vega. (Vega II)
:D
But in salivating over the Burnett Cutter - I admire your taste. ;) On the other hand don't forget that 'Fast Fred's' warning that double enders are slower than transoms (tee hee hee....) :D

[FAST FRED]

The canoe sterned boats get sucked down far more at speed than the better boats with a normal transom.

Perhaps rowing as a lifeboat backwards to pick up survivors the canoe stern will excell, but for speed there not quite as fast as most.

The usual "rule" is 1.34 times sq rt LWL for conventional sterned boats.

The doubble enders usually only get 1.15 or so before the stern sinks alarmingly, dragging a wall of water.Not a big deal on a 28ft LWL , but enough to be slower.

I spent a couple of years as outfitter for the CT Westsail dealer , so have sailed these boats in many weather cond.

Lots of times the owners were novices and would need help with reefing and the use of storm sails ect . So I'm used to pushing them toward hull speedwith reasonable (20 to 40K) of breeze.

Their not as bad as many would say , as the sales folks used the "all up ready to depart for the Horn "weight as disapmacement. Not the real vessels weight.

The West coast constructed hulls were fine , the East coast boats may have SEVERE structural hassels , Keels departing ect.

Caviat Emptor!

FAST FRED

[SailDesign]

Not really a BCC either, but double-ended and with an extremely cute butt -

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2102/size/big/sort/1/cat/500

Steve

[Vega]

Many thanks to everyone that responded! Vega, that double ender from Burnett Yacht Design is flirtin' with perfection! She is soooo sweet from both ends! Any idea what her length might be? I'm going to investigate further...Thanks again

Yes, she has 37'. You can see all details here, even photos:

http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/103psyche.html

Take a look at this one. This is a 30ft boat.

http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/imagesheets/010-pic.html

[Vega]

Pssstttt...Kudu - Vega prefers to be called Paulo...it's his boat which is Vega. (Vega II)


well, there is no problem in calling me Vega. Mr Vega is what sounds strange to me :p

Bergalia, take a look at the other traditional designs from Burnett, I know you are going to love it.

http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/saildesign.html

If i had to chose, it will be this one:

http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/imagesheets/116-pic.html

I have owned a boat of this kind, 20 years ago (traditional Portuguese sail boat) and I miss arriving to a port and see lots of sailors disappearing inside their boats.... and coming back with a camera. :)

[DGreenwood]

Take a look at this guys stuff, it is pretty good. If I knew what size range you were looking for it would make it easier to direct you. There are soooo many beautiful choices to be made. If I could keep a stable of them......

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail3.php#winrow

[DGreenwood]

If you want to see some REAL heartbreakers in this size range, check out the Danish spitzgatters or how about Aage Nielsons designs or some of Bob Perrys designs (I don't want to hear any lip here about the Westsail 32, he did a lot of other really great double enders).
Cast an eye over all the Scandeheuvian boats...it sounds like you are more drawn to those more than the English designs....just a guess.
If I am wrong take a look at the Oystermen and Cocklers of England. Many people in North America confuse the Smacks and Bawleys ( and their modern yacht evolutions) with the Pilot Boats of the Bristol channel. Different beasts really. Take a look at the French smacks as well they have some lovely lines.

[SailDesign]

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail3.php#winrow

Now, Design No. 106 on that page (near the top) comes closest to a Bristol Channel Cutter with a canoe stern. Too frikkin' cute!
Steve

[kudu]

She's a fine looking boat! If only she was a 28 to 30 footer. Thanks

[kudu]

I firmly agree...She's sweet! Are there any able designers within boatdesign.net who could stretch her to 28-30 feet?

[Bergalia]

Paulo - for a 'foreigner' :D you have immaculate taste...
Don't tell them - but I'd swap my wife and two daughters to own a lady like that ;)

[DGreenwood]

He has some others that are not on his site. The plans for a 30 footer that Wooden boat sells that is just a heart breaker. An ex employee of mine had him do a custom design for him...sweeet. He seems fair about his prices too. He doesn't do a bad double ender either

[DGreenwood]

How about a spitzgatter??

http://www.yachtsportarchiv.de/yachten/klassen/klassenrisse_b/rissespitzgatt-1.html

[DGreenwood]

Too cute...
http://www.esail.de/album/Seiten/segeln4_jpg.htm

[DGreenwood]

And of course there is the great Aage Nielson

http://www.hugohein.com/classic.sail/holger.danske/holger.danske.specs.htm

[SailDesign]

DGreenwood - why not just admit it , you've been in love with the Tumlaren since you first saw one in 1963....

[DGreenwood]

Of course we must not forget Knud....hey...how did you know how old I am? ;?)

[SailDesign]

Just a guess, DGreenwood, just a guess. Based on your suggestiuons above, but basically a guess.
I mention Tumlarens simpkly because I fell in love with them at first sight in 1963 (I was 8 at the time)
Steve

[kudu]

I got some feedback from a boat designer regarding this thread. When I asked him if he could draw plans for a 28 - 30 foot double ended Bristol Channel Cutter, he informed me that a double ender at that length would not perform as well as a transom stern. I would like to ask here...Does anyone know the hows and whys of what this designer speaks of ? I know nothing of hull design but to me it all seams relative. If a double ender is good for say a 38' or 48' sailboat and all things being equal, why not a 28 or 30' ? Please unconfuse me :confused:

[Bergalia]

I got some feedback from a boat designer regarding this thread. When I asked him if he could draw plans for a 28 - 30 foot double ended Bristol Channel Cutter, he informed me that a double ender at that length would not perform as well as a transom stern.

My first thought is that he may not know how to design 'double enders....'
But of course I may be wrong... ;)

[FAST FRED]

"he informed me that a double ender at that length would not perform as well as a transom stern. "

As a boat goes faster it begins to climb her bow wave .

The transom stern helps hold the stern up by having more displacement than the canoe stern.

Therefore the canoe sterns sink furthur in the water at top speed , dragging a biger stern wave , loosing energy , limiting top speed.

Unless your in a whole gale and have unlimited energy , when the stern will go down a couple of feet and drag a big hunk of ocean with it.

Any boat , with a short amount of overhang will begin to drag big water when run at "over" hull speed.

On our 33ft Motor Sailor this can be used to great advantage.

A 3 cyl antique Volvio MD 3b is rated at 15 hp when used as a one cylinder, 25 hp when built as a 2 cyl and downrated to 35hp in the 3 cylinder config.

AS the boat has a "cruising prop" intentionally oversized to reduce cruise rpm she can absorb a bunch of power.

After all day on the waterway , being passed by marine motorists with NO concept of hoe to pass safely and quickly we can have FUN.

The motorists usually tie up early , so we simply go full throttle dumping 45hp into the stern wave. The Maurice Griffiths design has a big transom but short overhang and when severly overpowered for a min or two will go down 18 inches.

This creates a delightfull stern wave for the motorists tied alongside a dock.

Of course they cant believe a small sail boat made such a wave , whemn they scream on the radio , we just tell 'em it was a M motorist they didnt notice.

Getting even is half the fun!

FAST FRED

FAST FRED

[kudu]

Thanks for the input FastFred...Is it possible to design a double ended stern that IS radically more efficent ? Or, are all double enders created equal?
Also, how much of a loss of forward momentum are we talking about, two or more knots?
I need to back up...What if a canoe stern was designed instead of a double ender, then what? Does the additional width of the stern negate the issue you speak of, or is it the same difference? kudu

[kudu]

Does anyone have some input concerning which stern is better, canoe vs a double ender? Crunchin' the numbers, who's the winner? Thanks :p

[FAST FRED]

two or more knots?

Perhaps on a HUGE vessel ,

the usual difference a conventional stern boat will get to the sq rt of the lwl times 1.34 with a good breeze.

In the same breeze the doubble ender will only go 1.15 /1.20 or so before dragging the ocean along.

Plug in your LWL and see the difference , half K at most sizes that ordinary folks can afford.

Weather the added resistance of a big stern wave will cause large following waves to break sooner , is also a concern.

FAST FRED

[kudu]

I'm still in search of a sailboat design that mirrors the durability and looks of the 28 foot Bristol Channel cutter with a nice round butt. There have been a few suggestion that come very close except for the "round butt" part, all either had a transom or were shorter in length. Thanks

[CapnTodd]

I cruised a BCC (Sam L Morse Co, Hull #4) for 2 years, and mine had a nicer backside than most, being the only GRP hull fitted with a teak transom overlay. Here are 2 pics. What it does is visually reduce the giant billboard of a transom. Note the white border to further provide the illusion of a less prominent flat area. If you end up with a BCC, then this may be an answer.

I looked over many, many designs, and I never saw a double-ended clone. The only thing I feel you would lose in a double-ender is the excellent storage of the stock BCC. Bicycle, extra 40 gal of water, lines, spare parts, etc. all went in there. It is a very deep space. Actually, considering the junk that collected there, maybe you would be better off without.

To my eye, the lines could be improved by slightly increasing the rake of the transom, but that is just my opinion.

Good luck with your quest - please post what you find. Thanks to all the members here for providing many hours of enjoyable reading.

T

[Bergalia]

The only thing I feel you would lose in a double-ender is the excellent storage of the stock BCC. Bicycle, ....etc etc
T

(Shocked voice)...A Bicycle :confused: Good God...what kind of membership is this forum attracting....Hasn't CapnTodd read that superb poem: A sailor's farewell to his horse....:D

[chandler]

Nobody mentioned Colin Archer,those are classics!
Ed Burnetts designs are soon to be classics. He is a very nice guy to boot!
Several years ago I tried to obtain plans for Roxane, A collaboration between Burnett and Nigel Irens. Ed was very cooperative however the design was in grp production and the design was not available. To make a long story even longer; that is what led me to this site. I'm in the process of designing a larger version of Roxane, to suit my needs. You have to see Roxane!
You may see my design someday here. I'm in the lofting stage so the next post should be in the boatbuilding forum I guess. Anyway check out Roxane, she's on Ed Burnetts website.
Check out Colin Archers designs, probably the preeminate designer of double enders.