flat bottomed sail boat

[woodsnwater]

I'm told the Dutch used to use flat bottomed sail boats as barges in the canals and the North Sea. I'm wondering if any designs or versions of a flat bottomed sail boat exist. The cargo they carried acted as the ballast. Running aground or having the tide go out was not an issue with the flat bottom. I'm thinking of building a boat like this for use in Lake Michigan and area rivers. Most sailing would be on calm waters along the lake coast. I'm thinking of something in the 27 foot range...

[nero]

Did these boats have round, daggerboards mounted to each side of the boat?

[yago]

You might want to have a look at the boat I am currently building: http://www.justmueller.com/boats/

Gerd

[Sander Rave]

Dear woodsnwater,
Today still these flatbottoms are a common sight at dutch waters. Nowerdays they are just used for leisure, as they were working boats in the old days. they even sailed to London until the last century freighting eel (alive).

to give you an impression, visit this link:
http://www.vaartips.nl/visserij.htm
Pitty it's in dutch, but this is a site with pretty much pictures to give you an idea of the types used. the smalest are about 3.50meter, up to 33 or more... build in wood or steel. Second you can try to do a picture search in google on "platbodem" (flat bottom) it gives you some idea

One of my favourites is a Lemmsteraak or Lemmeraak (they are even build today) They got often named after the city of origen as many cities have their own tradition of boatdesigns.

If you are interrested, I can help you searching for your specific needs.
Regards,

Sander

[yipster]

good link that is on traditional dutch stock Sander as i never could tell one of those designs from the other but they are still very popular here

i lived on a frends old botter (http://www.militaritaeten.de/modellschiffe.html) a long time ago, sailed it, motored it, kept it from sinking in a storm (as many went that way) but never got to like it or understood these ancient designs exept for that we do have shallow waters here

[safewalrus]

hey buddy there's some interesting flat bottom boats nearer to home for you; from the New England area (and others) call 'em dory's. Two styles of boat the Continental Americans made their own where schooners and dories! and you lot produced some beautiful models after we GAVE you your independance (up until then you were of course English Colonials - so that's how you came to be so good!)

Ask your Coastguard why they are so good! (formation date has something to do with it!)

[yipster]

building a flat bottom sailing boat consider a sharpie

[safewalrus]

Yipster - Yeah sorry, forgot about them - how do you forget about the most prolific of all American small vessels?

[LP]

There is also the gulf coast sailing scows. I believe they were most prolific along the Texs coast.

[tspeer]

And then there are the scows of the Inland Lakes Yachting Association (ILYA (http://www.ilya.org) ). Several classes, including the 20' cat-rigged C scow (http://www.ilya.org/cdrawingnew.jpg), 28' sloop rigged E scow (http://www.ilya.org/edrawingnew.jpg), 38' A scow (http://www.pyc.org/2004AGroup-06.jpg) (a development class according the the ILYA rules, and a one-design class in the opinion of the remaining manufacturer), and the 16' MC (http://www.ilya.org/mcdrawingnew.jpg) and M scow (http://www.ilya.org/mdrawingnew.jpg) classes. The MC and M which share the same hull shape, but the MC has a cat rig and is sailed single-handed while the older M-16 class is sloop rigged and sailed with a crew of 2.

Then there are the M-20 and I-20 (http://www.windwardboatworks.com/images/NLYC%20NATIONALS/DSC_6979.JPG) (basically the same boat), in which the bottom actually humps up in the middle (http://www.windwardboatworks.com/images/NLYC%20NATIONALS/DSC_7004.JPG)! The I-20 is a skiff trying to morph itself into a catamaran.

Before the advent of the modern multihull, the Inland Lakes scows were the fastest sailboats in the world.

[floridasailor]

were good because we kicked your asses

[catamaran29]

Depending on your level of ambition there be plenty of proven designs out there. For the really historic minded you can get a pretty good set of drawings, with offsets, from the Smithsonian Institution (Check for catalog of american water craft). I have a set of drawings for a Pistcataway Gundalow. It's about 29' though. Since it was designed to move cargo it doesn't come with a lot of creature comforts designed in. But if you like "old" styles it really is a pretty neat looking boat - Lateen sails, leeboard, and all. THere are also scow drawings for a San Francisco Bay scow schooner (29").

For newer ideas, try "BOLGER" sites. there are sites out there that lead you to some pretty simple flatbottom designs. Try Jewel Box, Music Box, AS29, and/or Chubaco Boat in your browser.

Clark Craft has plans and rigging kits for a 21' and 27' sailing 'dory' that look good in pictures. They have a web site too.

[yipster]

ok for history's sake this old dutch botter drawing

[Vega]

There are also several traditional sail flat boats in Portugal.

http://www.av.it.pt/aveirocidade/pt/barcos/barcos.htm
http://www.net-moliceiro.inovanet.pt/

http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/ancbtradicionais-sul.html
http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/ancbtradicionais-norte.html
http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/ancbtradicionais-centro.html
http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/ancbtradicionais-tejo.html

[catamaran29]

Do they have an English site. Pretty neat boats, but I can't read a bit of Portugee

[yipster]

http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/bt-073.jpg interesting rigging in that last link!

[Sander Rave]

Sorry guys I'm off to Russia for a month, so I will not be following these threads for a while. The "scheepvaart museum" in Amsterdam has an extensive library of drawings of dutch flat botommed boats. The Sail parade had a lot of the replica's and originals sailing. When I return, I'll post some pics.

Have a good time all!
Regards,

Sander

[SailDesign]

interesting rigging in that last link!

I _THINK_ I saw Greek, Roman/Italaian, Norse and Egyptian influences in there.
Interesting, indeed :)

[Vega]

Sorry Guys, That site has not an English version. Best I can offer is an automatic translation.

I will post the translation (no images) and then the original page with images ( in Portuguese).

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.multicascos.com.br%2Fembarcacoestradic.htm&langpair=pt%7Cen&hl=pt-PT&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

http://www.multicascos.com.br/embarcacoestradic.htm

[Vega]

I _THINK_ I saw Greek, Roman/Italaian, Norse and Egyptian influences in there.
Interesting, indeed :)

Good eyes.

I don´t believe in the Norse influence (influences are older than that) and that's true, there is a strong oriental influence, but it is not Egyptian, but Phenician and Charthaginian (Carthago was once a phenician colony). There are also Muslim influences being the most remarkable the Latin sail.

About all those influences it is important to remember that Greeks and Phenicians have been here, settling Colonies, long before Christ. Later the Carthaginian made an alliance with Lusitanians against the Romans (Anibal is still a popular name around here) and settled more colonies. Then the Romans dominated, after that came the Visigods and Suevos and then it was Muslim territory.

With all this cultural influences we can understand the large diversity of the Portuguese traditional boats in such a small territory.

[Vega]

http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/bt-073.jpg interesting rigging in that last link!

And the stange thing is that all those sails were not used to go forward, but sideways :)

[LP]

Woodsnwater,

Here's a link to a flat bottom sailer by H. I. Chapelle. Southwind (http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/South) I love the sailplan on this one. It's probably a little compact in size, most sharpies are limited that way, and it's traditionally built. With a know-how, I'll bet it could be strip-built with epoxy and a bit of glass.

There are a lot of sharpie plans available on the web. L. F. Herreshoff did a 33' version of one in his book, Sensible Cruising Designs. There is a complete set of plans for the "Meadowlark" in the book and this one looks quite roomy, for a sharpie. The Meadowlark is unique, because Herreshoff designed it with leeboards to maximize cabin space.