Proposal: Rule Beater in SoCal

The wife and I will retire shortly. She wants to go to (unnamed) CA. The equivalent house here in TX is a Million bucks in this SoCal town. Soooo we will live in the marina. We will get a 50-60 slip, about 14-16 beam. Endtie would be better but there would be some politickin to do for that. Trouble is this marina is somewhat hostile to livaboards. City council and Harbor commission are tying to work with the CG to define "Navigable" The city does not want a situation like Lake Union or Saucilito.

Sooo what is Navigable? Navigable in Lake Powel? Navigable in Anchorage?

So I am imagining a craft that could be assembled on the coast and under its own power on a average SoCal day make the 30-40 mile trip to the livaboard slip.

Hint to designers. To wife houseboat=Trawlwr? NOT! Houseboat is a HOUSEboat.

I am seeing a self powered barge with ahigh pilot house. What do you see?

A nice solution (smaller) is the Japanese house on the www.finot.com site. Shame they do not answer their mail...

I know that his could be a reasonable type of job, anyone interested.

This project would test you skill in archecture as well (think floating Phillip Johnson)

Thanks


Michael Puig

[Portager]

I like the idea of a floating home, I've tried to talk the admirable into it myself. However I think you should consider the intent of the law and try and comply with that, otherwise you will be constantly at odds with the city council.

I think the intent of the law is to keep the water front from looking like a trailer park. Nobody is going to complain if you build something that looks good and makes the water front more attractive, but if it is an eye sore your going to have a constant battle.

I would build a paddlewheel replica sort of like this.

http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=975766&currency=USD&units=Feet

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

WOW!!! It has to be navigable!! A bit over the top for my tastes! I know that there can be a balance here. Thats why I am asking all the experts here for there ideas. I do appreciate you comments and the wife really like the paddle wheeler, if it was toned down a bit...

[Portager]

Yea, I have to agree that the example it is over the top, but it is the concept I like. The paddle wheel could be relatively inexpensive to build and cheap to make navigable. I think I would go with a catamaran to make it easier to move and for maximize stability. Will would probable put rented outboards on it when he wanted to prove it could move. :D

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Willallison]

With all that beam, if you just modified the transom a little - you know - get rid of that padlle-wheely-thingy - you could easily fit 5 or 6 big o/b's on there!
Why have house that can do 5 knots, when you can have one that will do 50!!:D

[Portager]

LOL :D :D :D

Actually mounting a couple of outboards in the stern doesn't sound like a bad idea if your only going to move it periodically and with plenty of advanced notice. You could remove them in the interim and stow them out of the weather or put them back on your other boat.

How fast does this thing need to be to comply with the rules? Would 1 or 2 knots be sufficient?

A small outboard on the front might make a nice bow thruster.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

You guys are wicked... Really I am serious about this. I would think the boat should do at least 8knts on the way up from ventura. And yes outboards (Honda 4 stroke) are the way to go. Did you all look at the boat on the www.finot.com site. I thought that was a pretty good solution, it had a decent hull. I would hust like something that is more boat-like than house-like. Come on ther must be someon around who can think out of the box.

[Portager]

I assume you are talking about the La Houseboat at http://www.finot.com/autreals/houseboat/houseboat_angl.htm

To tell you the truth I wouldn't take that outside the breakwater anyway near Ventura without a very close eye on the weather and a Coast Guard escort. The Pacific Ocean can get very rough and the La Houseboat isn't designed for any significant waves. It also has a lot of windage (the above waterline to below waterline area ratio is the highest I have ever seen) so I'd be concerned in even a slight cross wind. If the wind happens to have a gust frequency near the first harmonic roll frequency you might want to change its name to Elvis (i.e. the King of rock and roll).

One thing you might want to consider is the harbors in Southern California are not very sheltered and when the storms hit from just the wrong direction the liveabords don't get much sleep.

If you want to leave the harbor then you would be better off with a trawler. Then you could take it out once in awhile and visit the Channel Islands or do some fishing.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Willallison]

I'll run with Mike on this one.
For starters anything that is going to be a truly comfortable liveaboard is going to be a) Big and b) Heavy.
Even the 5 o/b's I jokingly siggested are going to be no match for a good headwind and even a slight slop - they simply can't swing big enough props.
You need to decide whether you want a floating home or an occaisional coastal cruiser. If it's the former, have it built (or transported) to where you want it and leave it there. I know this isn't acceptable in the eyes of your law makers, which brings us closer towards the 2nd alternative. I gather you don't intend to go crossing oceans or anything, so how about something along the lines of the Florida Bay Coaster http://www.realships.com/coaster/main.shtml
These vessels come in all shapes and sizes and can be customized to suit your own requirements. They would certainly comply with the navigable aspect of your regs and would allow you to do some pretty decent coastal cruisng in the comfort of your own home. Not only that, but I wouldn't mind betting that you could pick up a 2nd hand one for a lot less than you could custom build a bigger version of your Japanese saki palace for.....

[Portager]

Yep, I agree with Will.

A smaller option along the same line is the Great Harbor 37 http://www.mirage-mfg.com/gh/mainpage.htm .

There is a lot of room inside and you could take it out on nice days. I have never seen one on the West coast though.

I'd suggest you go to www.yachtworld.com and search for something already in California. Set your price and length range and see what comes up.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Boy, now yo all have done it! So much for the Sake Ship! I am familiar with the other two boats you mentioned... They would do it, I think. The spouse likes it all on one level, or if its two levels the she likes to go up. Although it was not a problem on a large catamaran...$
Those two boats are not cheap and the upkeep would be on the high side also. The city fathers would approve though.

What I was thinking about was to buy something like this:

http://www.zagfab.com/65barge.htm

http://yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=407646&currency=USD&units=Feet

( this would work if you extended the house aft)

then build a lower profile structure on it. Done right it would have a sort of refined "Road Warrior" look. I was thinking steel with thick tempered glass.

If push comes to shove I know the trawler will most likely work but clean ones in the 50' range are pricey. The woodies are better but thats a WHOLE different story...

Keep em coming...

[Willallison]

True, the Florida Bay Coaster's aren't bargain basement vessels. But you have to look beyond the intial cost.
For instance, the 45' tug you showed is up for 160K. On top of that you'd have the not inconsiderable cost of refurbishment and at the end of it all the base of it all - the hull - would still be 30+ yrs old.
There's a 42' Coaster currently on the market for 475K. A lot of $ yes - but you may just end up spending that much to get what you want anyway http://yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=652784&currency=USD&units=Feet

[Willallison]

How about something like this - all virtually on one level - nice big windows - most definitely navigable - and 1/2 the price of the Florida Bay (though not as much space)
http://yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=894187&currency=USD&units=Feet

Or if you prefer the Houseboaty look, then there must be a thousand of these sort of things for sale
http://yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_detail.jsp?checked_boats=1005082&currency=USD&units=Feet

Personally, I'd make sure that I'd exhausted all the already available options before I went down the custom built path. It's usually more successful and almost always less expensive

[Portager]

The 55' Bluewater Yachts Cruiser looks like a good option. It is a good liveaboard and it is located in Marina del Ray. It could easily make the trip to Ventura on a good day. You should keep in mind that Bluewater Yachts are really more seaworthy houseboats, not sea going ships despite their looks. Still I think it would meet your requirements.

The 53' Skipperliner MY530 is cheaper but getting it from Iowa to Venture CA would be chore and the city founders might not welcome you with open arms.

I think you should do a cost budget and estimate what your maintenance cost are going to be. When you consider slip fees, annual or bi-annual haulouts & bottom paint, staying in Hotels while the work is being done, ... It might be cheaper to buy a condo. Remember boats are a hole in the water that you throw money into! I'm not trying to throw water on your liveaboard plans but make sure that is really what you want before you dive in. Many people have tried it and ended up selling the boat after 6 mo or a year and loosing a lot of money in the process. Living aboard usually works best when both parties are avid boaters and really want to be on the water as much as possible. I know liveaboards that sleep in the car on stormy nights because the rocking and rolling keeps them awake.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Well, I am really getting depressed here. All this realism! You are all wise for sure. My broker told me about the Bluewaters, yes they could work. But they are wretched looking abberations. I'll make no bones about. I like a "commercial " look. I'll let the cat out of the bag and tell you that the harbor is Santa Barbara, Me, I like Ventura, the wife wabnts SB. NO need to tell you what the prices are in that town, even a condo is a half mil, so in th eharbor is the only solution.(well maybe a camper, but you have to drive around all parts of town to park and sleep. Thats not my idea of retirement)

Now I am thinking about power catamarans...

http://www.seahorseyachts.com/broker/br_listing_detail_handler.jsp?company=seahorsemarine&boat_id=677694&units=Feet&currency=&listing_id=&page=broker&mls_true=&WebLogicSession=PWroihibRpoVLEf1qkWS2F4DZMK436gPk6XcnWMasMiIHetkLX9n|-6453936143666535209/170924118/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1

[WPLANE]

A powercat may be an excellent solution. Even a relatively heavy powercat will still be far more efficient, more seaworthy and less costly to power effectively than a flat bottom barge type vessel or even a beamy trawler type. Catamarans offer a wide and stable platform on the wingdeck level, and added space within the hulls. Of course, there would be greater cost involved in building this type of vessel than in retrofitting an existing barge, etc. I don't know of any existing designs that would fit your needs, so it would undoubtedly have to be custom built. However, I feel it would be possible to build such a vessel relatively inexpensively in aluminum or even steel.

It would be an interesting design project...

[Portager]

I think it will be hard to beat the resale value of a trawler. A custom design may be a better fit for your requirements and it might even cost you less to buy, but you will get less back when you sell.

You will probably have less depreciation with a slightly used boat that a new one, but you won't get it the way you want it, so if you are the type that has to have it just so, I might cost you less to buy new than to buy used and make a lot of improvements.

You can check out the rest of their designs at http://www.seahorseyachts.com

I like the 44' Diesel Duck.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Willallison]

Even though you aren't all that mad about the styling, I'd have a long think about something along the Bluewaters lines.
Remember this is to be your home. Things like ocean-going capability are likely to be of a lower priority to you than things like liveability.
Boats like the Seahorse look like they'd be quite capable cruisers, but if your boat is likely to essentially remain tied to the dock then features like big windows, relatively open living spaces etc are important aspects that shouldn't be overlooked.
Look at Mike's pick for instance - the 44' Seahorse Diesel Duck. The wheelhouse has reasonable windows - but the rest of the living spaces must make do with tiny round portholes - excellent when it comes to pounding through rough seas - but not so geat when it comes to looking out and letting light come in.
It's the oldest of adages - but every boat is a compromise. The trick is to very carefully establish what you want to be able to achieve with your boat and then look about for something that best fits those needs.
(and then of course re-asses when you discover your needs don't quite fit your budget!:( )

[Portager]

Sound advice. Although I love passagemakers, I know they are not for everybody and even I wouldn't want to live in some of them full time. Check them out first hand and if possible spend as much time in them as you can.

OTOH there is not substitute for weight when it comes to comfort at sea or at anchor and it is nice to know you could take it anywhere you want to.

My previous point was that a production boat will have better resale value than a custom boat.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Just back from on board a Bluewater. It was awful. Not that is was shabby or anything but it didnt FEEL like a boat, more like a mobile home. Not a houseboat. It was dissapointing.

[Portager]

I'm not too surprised, the Bluewaters are pretty light, although they are supposed to be the Cadillac of houseboats. I never thought they felt solid on the water, more like a tin can. There is no substitute for mass for a comfortable ride.

Sounds like you should concentrate on trawlers. Here is a list of trawlers http://www.boatowners.com/trawlers.htm you could also look for info at http://www.trawlerworld.com/cw_builders.htm .

A general rule of thumb is that new boats cost ~$10/lb. It seams to run pretty close for most trawler type boats that I have checked.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Hi,
I live in Sweden and we have pretty generous rules. Over 15 metres you can get a loan on the houseboat. We have some HOUSEboats here, a floating and somewhat movable concrete plattform with a house of some kind on it. I think that they are pretty ugly and uninteresting, but then I am more in for a houseBOAT or live-aboard. The only problem the HOUSEboat owners here are having with some marinas is that the marinas want every boat to be able to move by itself, but I guess that could be aranged with a small motor.

Houseboat - in swedish husbåt - could be both house and boat, as long as someone is permanently living on it. In the central parts of our capital, Stockholm, wich is surrounded by water, it is for the moment looking as if you have got to live on a regular boat to get a place to park. I think it is because the politicians think it looks better with boats. (And so do I)

Here are some links with some pictures of HOUSEboats (maby except for the arosdesign...)

I also know that they build concrete houseboats in Estonia. But that is perhaps closer to me than to you.

I don't know what you can get in America for a million dollars but here you can buy 20 aquavillas for that amount...

www.hamnbyggarna.nu
www.sunseeker.se/marinstaden
www.aquavilla.se/
www.arosdesign.se/ (plastic, small and uuugly)
www.johnson-marin.se/ (sandwish catamaran hull)
www.ahuset.se/ (I think this one is a real beauty inside)

//Anette

[badges65]

Have a look at the history other at site and the IVB will give you the most stable platform to build what you want on it plus doesnt require big HP to drive it..
don

[Polarity]

Not really my scene this but I did live on one of these for a year and a half. (63ft + an extension.. for the Jacuzzi!)
Very comfy and all mod cons.. 500K $ might buy you a reasonable one, - much less if one of the enginges was a goner...

Paul

[gonzo]

I think there can be some economic solutions to your answer. Are you looking to buy a design, a completed boat, a kit or some kind of modular system? I can design and/or build whatever you need. However I need to know some more detailed information. For example, the hull material you prefer. Also, other preferences, like interior arrangements. What is the time schedule for a completed project? Let me know if you are interested.

[Guest]

Let's face it my friend. You don't want a boat, you want a house. Houses are expensive here, but a little cheaper if you shop east county. You're just the type of live aboard we don't want in our marinas. And you wouldn't be happy either, trust me. No offense to you personally, but your attitude is smug and deffient, and you sound like a real trouble maker. That's why we restrict who lives on boats here. Otherwise, we'd have a really cheesey trailer park on the water inhabited by people who can't really afford to live here, pay taxes, etc.

A concerned sailor and business man

[Guest]

If you look at classic 20's style "houseboats", you will see plumb bowed, fantail stern single screw motoryachts that offer tremendous space inside. Jay Benford used to live on one in St. Michaels MD, and designs similar craft. His current versions are brokered as "Florida Bay Coasters"by Real Ships International. They have a website showing their 42 and 60. His website is www.tillerbooks.com.

The current designs are steel and twin screw, but obviously could be either.

It would be very easy to get Jay or another designer competent in steel to come up with something you like if you don't like the current ones. You could then get it built at a number of places in the Northwest or in Cotati, CA. (When you get to that point, post again.) If the builder uses CNC it will be relatively affordable. You could also have a CNC kit made, and have it contract built or build it yourself. Several Seattle firms would also be good candidates becauise of their experience in small steel ship contruction, mainly Elliott Bay Design Group , Rick Etsel, Fisker Andersen or Jensen Maritime.

In the interests of full disclosure, I weas involved in the design of one of the subject craft and worked for one of the design firms listed above, so I might be prejudiced, but a quick web cruise would be at least interesting.

[tranmkp]

Let's face it my friend. You don't want a boat, you want a house. Houses are expensive here, but a little cheaper if you shop east county. You're just the type of live aboard we don't want in our marinas. And you wouldn't be happy either, trust me. No offense to you personally, but your attitude is smug and deffient, and you sound like a real trouble maker. That's why we restrict who lives on boats here. Otherwise, we'd have a really cheesey trailer park on the water inhabited by people who can't really afford to live here, pay taxes, etc.

A concerned sailor and business man

The above sounds kind of scary. Just got back from SoCal, spent some time in MDR. Not my favorite but just checking. A few houseboats, some liveaboards and lots of trashy/not used Columbias and Catalinas. I assume from lesser troublemakers trying to make it. Just the demographic the above wants?

Too bad Mr. Businessman, I am really just the kind of person the marina needs. More on that later.

Looks like a Trawler after all is the path of least resistance for the family. The Florida bay boats are very good. They are within the 500k limit I have set. I must say when I read the comments from above (since I really CAN afford to live there) I should find out where his slip is and put a frigging tramp boat with 2" of bird guano next to him...more on this later. Thanks to all for the great insite into this ongoing project...

[SeaDrive]

Here's a thought: http://dieselducks.com/index.html

I like William Garden's 88foot power dory, myself.

[SeaDrive]

I must say when I read the comments from above (since I really CAN afford to live there) I should find out where his slip is and put a frigging tramp boat with 2" of bird guano next to him...

I'm flipping through "How to win friends and influence people" looking for the chapter that advises this approach.

[tranmkp]

Im over it now...