The Ultimate Sailboat

[Brasstom]

Hello all! I've been browsing this site for about a year now and have finally decided to contribute something to these discussions! I'm also hoping for some constructive commends about an idea I've had for a few years now, since I first became interested in building sailboats.

First of all I have to admit to being a complete amateur in the field of boat design. I admit it because I'm sure it will become obvious soon enough! I'm an amateur builder with two small boats under my belt and am working on a 22 foot plywood sharpie design right now. But my dream boat is the one I'm going to describe now...

What I want is a sailboat with the capabilities of a do-it-all adventure boat. I'd like to build a boat with a length of about 50 ft and a beam of about 15 ft. What would make her unique is that in the center of the hull would be a 10ft by 8 foot bay, like a cargo hold, in which you could put either a very small 1 atmosphere or a decent sized ambient air dive submarine. The bottom of the sub would have clamshell-style doors which would open to lower the sub into the water when the sails are down and an anchor is lowered, providing stability. It would be lowered using a modifed boat lift-crane mecahism until it was below the bottom hull, where it could then shoot forward.

I'll try to get some of the rough sketches I have of this concept online as soon as I can, or email me. They're VERY rough, mostly drawn by an unskilled hand on loose scrap paper. Basically the deckhouse would look like a backwards C with the bay in the open part of the "C." Staterooms fore, galley aft.
This idea has been in my head for a long time and I know VERY little about boat design But I want to take this to the next level to make my dream some kind of reality and so I thought I'd start to trouble shoot the theory. There's MUCH more I have in mind for the design but I'm trying to keep this post to a reasonable novel-like length, lol. But in a nutshell:

I want to hang a very small ultralight seaplane off the back of the boat. The plane's exist and are very light, the greater issue is a stable storage rig for it. Maybe some kind of storage hold in the very front of the boat for a motor-bike or two, should I decide to go larger with the design.

Problems I see: <--and I KNOW there's more!
-Clamshell doors...how in the hell??
-Weight allocation and distribution, something I know very little about
-Mast or location or locationS
-the bay, which I think must necessarily go in the center, will make fitting two staterooms and a galley difficult...but not impossible, I think.

Well...please read, comment, and gimme a hand! Feel free to email me with questions, suggestions, ideas, critiscism (of the friendly kind I beg you!) or offers of help! Lord knows I need it!!

Thanks,
Tom

[MikeJohns]

It sounds like one of those fantastic popular mechanics designs . Great fun but a lost cause.

I'm afraid you have no hope at 50 feet, a vessel like this that still needs to be able to sail and have sufficient bouyancy for all her cargo would need to be considerably larger, the sub dock will add considerable cost weight and complexity, for successfull sub docking the vessel would need to be very stiff and stable.

The ultralight will corroded horribly at sea if slung of davits.

Far cheaper to go big, sling the sub off a broad stern and put your ultralight in the hold.

Look for an old sailing barge from Holland would do the trick admirably.

[stevel]

Too many compromises and too locked into specific non-sailing purposes for large portions of the boat.

[Packeteer]

I agree with other posters comments

if it were a pure motor boat then you might get by with 50ft, but not possible if you want to sail

[JonathanCole]

This is not such a bad idea. But maybe the way you are going about it is impractical. If you want a submersible that you can launch easily from a boat, it must be designed to dock with the boat. In other words the two parts must be designed together. I can imagine a catamaran with hulls that sit pretty high out of the water and pretty far apart so that a submersible could go in between the hulls and mate with some kind of docking apparatus. You might not want to do this in heavy seas. But perhaps your docking apparatus could be a hinged-at-the-top, ladder-like device which the submersible could dock to while it is well below the surface and then be pulled into its berthing position by a winch. That would allow you to bring the sub on board with less risk and a less complicated device than a crane. Besides a crane would raise the center of gravity so high that on a 50 foot boat she might topple. In every imaginable case you need a very light weight submersible. Attached is a picture of human powed one designed by some Russians that might do the trick.

The ultralight is less of a problem because you could use an fan driven parasail that could be stowed in a locker on the stern deck.
Check it out at: http://www.paratoys.com/skymotors.html

[Brasstom]

Thanks to all for the great comments...always thinking...

I've thought of most of the things you guys have mentioned, except for corrosion on the ultralight...thats going to rack my brain for a little while. I like the paraglider idea, I just think it would be difficult to launch from the water, and it IS a big piece of equipment to stow. But as I said, pondering!

First, I don't think the submersible bay is as impractical as you all might worry. First of all the sub will be VERY light, basic, and easy to handle. Something like THIS DESIGN (http://www.scubatow.com/Sub.html) bug modified to be a tad shorter and wider for two people to dive together. Since I'm designing an adventure yacht for the scuba-diver, and not a deep-sea explorer, I think an ambient air submarine is the way to go. Its light, cheap, easily maintained, smaller, and far easier to use. And it has the benefit of being able to LEAVE it to swim around in shallow waters. Before I forget to ask, where did you find that Russian sub design? I like it!

Second, the submarine will be INSIDE the hull at all times, except when diving. It'll be kept at a relatively low position inside the hull, though I think her weight at a couple hundred pounds should be relatively insignificant. As for the elevator, it would lower the boat right out through the bottom, and yes, would have be done in relatively calm seas. I'm trying to think of a way to deploy to heaby weights or anchors amidships on both sides of the boat to steady her...but its just an idea.

I still think this can be done, I think it can work. I'm full of ideas, though, and I know this thing has flaws that need ironing out. Thanks for your help, all! I'm shopping around for a designer (maybe a student?) who might like to work with me on this...anyone have any suggestions of where to look?

-Tom

[Brasstom]

Oh and I almost forgot! The submarine wouldn't be lowered or lifted by a crane. It would be more like a boat lift. A rig that the sub would settle in and onto and then pulled straight upward through the bottom of the boat (the doors are still MY biggest worry for the deisgn). it would be pulled up at all four points of a square and would only go up and down, so it would be more stable than maybe the winch and crane system you all may have been envisioning. Does this make more sense??? More to follow.

[BillyDoc]

and use the bottom of the sub as the bottom of the boat when it is in place.

Perhaps the mother-ship (boat) could be a twin-keel design, with a concavity amid-ship into which the top half of the Russian sub pictured can be pulled snuggly against something soft. Except, instead of the gull-wing doors shown, use a central topside lock that mates with a similar fitting on the mother-ship. If the design of the sub places the access lock higher than the water line of the mother-ship, then you don't even have to worry about blowing the lock to clear it. It would function something like a center-board trunk.

This way you wouldn't actually lose much internal space, and if you lose the sub your sailing configuration will be draggy, but will still work.

Of course if you lose the sub, there might not be anyone to sail . . . so THAT issue would be moot.

[dougfrolich]

Where is the Glomar Explorer? Bet you could buy it for scrap value. It might even come with part of a submarine.

[mackid068]

Glomar Explorer? Definatley not....though a good model if you are serious and have a lot of money!

[Brasstom]

This submarine isn't an LA class or the Kursk...its a very lightweight, probably plywood (fiberglass covered) constructed semi-dry ambient air submarine. Since I'm talking to boat-ers and not submariners I should explain...

Ambient Air submarines are not sealed off from the water and are not, strictly speaking, air tight. This means that as you dive deeper the air in your tanks, lungs, and sub are all compressed. Deeper than 120 feet this starts to have a toxic effect on your body. Ambient air submarines are shallow scuba-dive submarines, therefore. They're meant for shallow exploration and fun.
A Semi-dry sub means that only part of your body is out of the water, usually at the torso level. In the case of this boat, only your upper torso and head are out of the water. Your body and even most of the controles are underwater.

The benefits of them is that you can enter and exit this kind of sub with ease, and it makes an excellent "base" to put at 20 or 40 feet to return to with your dive buddy to discuss discoveries or plans of action instead of having to return to the surface.


The pictures here represent the TYPE of sub I Want to go inside of my yacht. I want to modify one to be shorter (this one is over 11 feet) and wider (its only 4 feet wide) to accomodate a second rider. You can find plans for this submarine HERE (http://www.scubatow.com/Sub.html), and many other places on the net.

I hope this gives you all a better idea of what I'm thinking, and might even sway you all to thinking this could be possible. Open your minds, free yourself of the constraints normally placed on sailboats everywhere! A sailboat CAN be the ultimate adventure-carrying dream boat that motor yachts are. It just requires more innovation..

PLEASE continue to help me! Thanks!

-Tom

[mackid068]

It could be done! Try a LONGER and WIDER boat and you can have it mounted in a hold with a "garage" style opening for dropping out OR you could mount it on the rear and drop the sub out the back.

[Brasstom]

at 3:3 this is a tough poll to decide, lol. thanks for the comments, all.

[BillyDoc]

Ah! The feeling of power!

[mackid068]

Oh no it's not :D

[Brasstom]

hey now! thats just mean! lol

[BillyDoc]

Ah, well. It was a great feeling while it lasted.

Wait! How come I can't vote more than once? I'm in America! We have deep traditions of electorial fraud to maintain! Just look at our last 3 national elections. No one made Dubja play fair!

I'm going down to the cemetary to get some more names to vote with . . . be back soon!

[safewalrus]

Nothing wrong with the idea - the fish well or 'moonpool' has been around for somet time look at most of your dive support vessels of various kinds throughout the world! Same with the microlight on the back? Hanger on deck above the moonpool maybe? The idea's 'old hat' tis the scale that is the problem 50 foot 1 man sub, 1 man microlight - auxilary sails (not the total works) yeah why not? Why not go for it - take a bit of designing stabilitywise but........