can we start drawing yet...? [Archive]

Willallison

07-08-2002, 07:02 PM

These are both images from previous posts of mine. Aspects like deadrise, engine installation (single or twins?) etc still need to be addressed.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=95&size=big
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=94

"Liz" is a fine example of what can be fitted into a 24ft (7.4m) hull. We have given ourselves the luxury of a few extra feet. I think that provides the opportunity to locate the head up fwd. This will allow better sightlines from the helm and open the entire cabin / cockpit up. On the downside, it will make the entire boat taller, in order to create sufficient headroom in the fwd cabin and head. Eliminating the separation between cockpit and cabin maximises the living space available. In my experience, the greatest impediment to spending long periods aboard a small boat is space - and being able to avoid 'tripping over one-another'.
An intelligent canopy system can work very well regardless of climate. It also reduces weight up high and with a colapsing radar arch can reduce trailering height. On the downside, you lose the security of a lockable main cabin. Heating is no problem - on my Searay, we use a "Heat Pal" - a little metho heater which uses very little fuel and warms the entire boat in no time.
Lay it on me boys - lets hear some constructive criticism.....:p

duluthboats

07-09-2002, 01:34 AM

Heat Pal??

OK, here’s my vision of O-1, it’s similar to Mike and Will’s vision except. We add about 5’ to the LOA on Blue Jacket. Give the forward cabin standing head room. Remove the berth from the forward cabin. Place head, galley and dinning in forward cabin. Raise pilot house and cockpit deck to self bailing height. Shorten the pilot house. Place a sleeping cabin aft, with standing head room in the center, single berths on each side extending forward under cockpit benches. We get 8knots to put some workboat styling on everything topside. A soft top might work. And a storable bug screen for the cockpit area.

So how do I make my vision your vision?

Gary

tom28571

07-09-2002, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by duluthboats
Heat Pal??

OK, here’s my vision of O-1, it’s similar to Mike and Will’s vision except. We add about 5’ to the LOA on Blue Jacket. Give the forward cabin standing head room. Remove the berth from the forward cabin. Place head, galley and dinning in forward cabin.

>This will increase the windage forward by about 50% unless you intend to make a very deep forefoot.<

Raise pilot house and cockpit deck to self bailing height.

>Bluejacket's pilothouse sole is right at the waterline now and the cockpit is already self draining truough transom scuppers.<

Place a sleeping cabin aft, with standing head room in the center, single berths on each side extending forward under cockpit benches.

>Now we are really talking windage and where is the engine to go? Remember, this boat has a maximum beam of 8ft 4in.<

A soft top might work. And a storable bug screen for the cockpit area.

>If the main sleeping cabin is aft, where is the cockpit to go?<

So how do I make my vision your vision?

Gary

Please don't take this the wrong way Gary but the boat in the link below has all that you want in your vision. To me, this is pretty near to a nightmare. Tell me you don't really mean it.

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001731;p=2

Ducking behind the taffrail, I remain, y'r 'umble serv'nt,

Tom:D :confused:

Jeff

07-09-2002, 05:14 PM

LOL - gasp - groan - choke - need oxygen please

--the only thing it needs is an open air deck on top, a taller radar arch, and a smaller bow :eek:

tom28571

07-09-2002, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Willallison
These are both images from previous posts of mine. Aspects like deadrise, engine installation (single or twins?) etc still need to be addressed.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/index.pl?photo=95&size=big
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/index.pl?photo=94

"Liz" is a fine example of what can be fitted into a 24ft (7.4m) hull. We have given ourselves the luxury of a few extra feet. I think that provides the opportunity to locate the head up fwd. This will allow better sightlines from the helm and open the entire cabin / cockpit up. On the downside, it will make the entire boat taller, in order to create sufficient headroom in the fwd cabin and head. Eliminating the separation between cockpit and cabin maximises the living space available. In my experience, the greatest impediment to spending long periods aboard a small boat is space - and being able to avoid 'tripping over one-another'.
An intelligent canopy system can work very well regardless of climate. It also reduces weight up high and with a colapsing radar arch can reduce trailering height. On the downside, you lose the security of a lockable main cabin. Heating is no problem - on my Searay, we use a "Heat Pal" - a little metho heater which uses very little fuel and warms the entire boat in no time.
Lay it on me boys - lets hear some constructive criticism.....:p

Will, I wrote a lengthy reply but lost it in copying stuff and am too mad to redo it now.

Tom:mad:

Willallison

07-09-2002, 06:46 PM

1. Heat Pal - is simply the brand name of the methylated spirits burning heater that I use on my boat. It is light, compact and folds away for easy stowage.

2. Sorry Gary - I'm with the others on your aft cabin idea. There are a few examples of where it has been done before:
http://www.nimbus.se/displayModel-history.asp?ModArchiveID=6&ModArchiveName=Nimbus%2026,%202600%20:and:%2027

but the fact that few if any such models are still in production today must tell us something about the success of their design. And for me, any boat that doesn't have an aft cockpit, with simple access to a boarding platform, is a boat which is designed to stay tied to the dock!

3. Tom, LOL! I look forward to your re-write!

Portager

07-09-2002, 08:38 PM

Will;

My personal preference would be to have a hardtop. Since I am the worlds most efficient UV collector ;) , I need to limit my solar exposure. Since I would never or almost never take the top down, I'd prefer to have a hardtop and lockable cabin. In addition, I hate looking through waive Eisenglass.

OTOH, since I know I've got the minority view, I'd settle for a removable or optional hardtop.

If you are going to drop the top and lower the radar to reduce trailer height, won't you need to hinge the windshield? I think we should keep it as simple as possible (i.e. fixed radar arch, windshield, ...) until we determine we have a height problem. You can go to 13' 6" or higher on the trailer in all the USA and I think Canada. I don't know what the limits in Europe and Australia are.

I don't think the head forward will work. Once the bow starts curving upward there wouldn't be enough head room for a stand-up shower. A vee berth would be a better usage of that space.

Duluthboats AKA Gary for info on the "Heat Pal" see http://www.origo-sweden.com/products/heater.asp . Will, I'd be very careful using an alcohol burner unless you have good ventilation (my problem is I never know how good is good enough ;) engineering has made me overly safety conscious).

I've been kind of quiet lately because I've been researching heater, stove and water heater options. I'll try and post a good summary tonight.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

duluthboats

07-09-2002, 09:49 PM

LOL!! I’m thinking nobody else has the same vision as me. :D First off the description above was of a boat I hope to build someday. It could work for O-1, but might just be a little off center for many to fall in love with. I knew that, but hoped it would draw out a few of the new members to take some shots at it. The great thing about words is I can write what I see in my mind and then be amazed at how people interrupt it. Actually I couldn’t open Will’s link so I don’t know what he pictured but Tom, :D I laughed when I first saw that picture on WB forum. The lines aren’t done and the many discussions here have led to lots of changes, but the description is still to the point. Someday I will share it with you. If you want a hint take Dave Gear’s Crackerjack, put it on a Sea Bright hull and add an outboard. The aft cabin works great for hiding the outboard, and if designed right would allow easy access to a folding swim platform. All this would fit on O-1, except for the hull form which I choose for many reasons, speed not being one. Enough dreaming.

Below the water line the C-Dory and Blue Jacket are very similar, except for the dory bow. BJ’s bow gives added volume without adding to LOA. For me this is a plus, we need the space. As for Wills topside my concern is with the soft top up, which it would be most of the time in a cold clime, how easy is it, to be docked single handed. I like the pilot station close to the cockpit.

Gary
Here for the duration. :)

Willallison

07-09-2002, 10:36 PM

hmm... shame you couldn't use the link, try going to www.nimbus.se and click on the "models history" button, then I think it was one of their 26 / 27 footers. I had a sneaking suspicion that your description had more to it than met the eye...

As for the soft top, I live in a fairly cold climate and have a similar canopy set up. I find that on a truly cold day I have my heater going so warmth is not a problem. If there's any sunshine about, the cockpit warms up nicely on its own and my boat seems warmer than a more traditional hard-top. When it is warm, I simply progressively "peel back the sides and / or lid" to suit.
As for docking single handed, I'm not sure what your concern is. If I'm approaching a dock, I roll up one of the aft side curtains giving immediate access to the side deck. I have a zipper rear door which gives similar access to the boarding platform.

I also see no reason why Mike's idea of a removable hard-top - indeed perhaps a full hard-top version couldn't be incorporated - something like this:

tom28571

07-09-2002, 11:22 PM

OK, I have recovered my composure after losing the previous coments on Will's post.

Will > "Liz" is a fine example of what can be fitted into a 24ft (7.4m) hull. We have given ourselves the luxury of a few extra feet. I think that provides the opportunity to locate the head up fwd. This will allow better sightlines from the helm and open the entire cabin / cockpit up. On the downside, it will make the entire boat taller, in order to create sufficient headroom in the fwd cabin and head. <

Visibility from the steering station was a big goal for me. I set it up so that my eye level is the same whether sitting or standing. That is a subtle thing but very nice. I find the all round vision excellent. I expected that vision to the aft quarters might be limited but I have had no problem with that and think the arangement is fine, at least for me.

Will > Eliminating the separation between cockpit and cabin maximises the living space available. In my experience, the greatest impediment to spending long periods aboard a small boat is space - and being able to avoid 'tripping over one-another'. <

Could not agree more that plenty of space is a plus rather than crowding too much stuff in the limited volume.

Will > An intelligent canopy system can work very well regardless of climate. It also reduces weight up high and with a colapsing radar arch can reduce trailering height. On the downside, you lose the security of a lockable main cabin. <

I wanted to fit a canopy aft but it just looked too high over the self draining cockpit. It also limits quick access to the side deck although that is no problem for us since we do all the mooring and anchor work from the anchor well through the forward hatch. I am still toying with a partial canopy over the forward part of the cockpit. The self draining anchor well is such a great idea that I took from other designs that it will be on any boat I design or build from now on.

Will > Heating is no problem - on my Searay, we use a "Heat Pal" - a little metho heater which uses very little fuel and warms the entire boat in no time. <

Sounds fine to me but I expect that the others will want a more sophisticated heating system.

Will > Lay it on me boys - lets hear some constructive criticism.....<

Here is a boat with a quart stuffed in a pint pot. Lots of amenities but not much room. It's not a full planing hull so will not fit our profile.

http://home.fox.nstn.ca/~bobrsbro/

Gary, the C-Dory hull is nothing like the Bluejacket. It's a nearly flat bottom with very little deadrise fore or aft. Like most dorys, the bottom is fairly narrow with a lot of hull flair. I don't push the Bluejacket as being fast in rough water but it is positively smooth compared to the pounding ride of the C-Dory. Interior of the C-Dory is also pretty crude and the sleeping cabin is kind of cramped. It does not have a self bailing cockpit which I could not accept. They now make a 24 footer that I'm not familiar with.

http://www.c-dory.com/C-Dory%2022.htm

There is another boat called the Badnam Launch built in Britain that was featured in a boat test article in Practical Boat Owner recently. A very handsome 25.5 footer that has a deeper forefoot and higher foredeck to inclose a forward head. The interior is very open and they claim a very smooth ride with a much finer entry than "Liz" has. It's equiped with refrigeration and freezer, shower, hot and cold pressurized water, gas heater, etc., etc. The hull is molded of three layers of 3mm ply which seems kind of light to me. That fine entry results in less overall interior room than the Bluejacket though and top speed is over 25% less at a top of 16kts with the same power.

Getting more speed in waves than Bluejacket will mean more deadrise and a finer bow. That will use up some of the extra length we are giving her and will also mean a higher displacement length ratio for equal stability with the deeper V although I could increase the deadrise to at least 12 degrees with no ill effects since I think I was a bit conservative there. An aft section deadrise of about 15 degrees might be about right for O-1.

Portager

07-09-2002, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by duluthboats
If you want a hint take Dave Gear’s Crackerjack, put it on a Sea Bright hull and add an outboard

I thought of Crackerjack when I read your description. I'd rather just keep Crackerjack as it is. Inboard diesel and all :).

Will;

I like the hart-top option and my bald head likes it too. I even think it looks a lot better!

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Willallison

07-09-2002, 11:57 PM

Tom, by incorporating a one level, self-draining cockpit - which also houses your living spaces - I believe that you can quite successfully completely enclose the cockpit with covers. Then, with a slightly raised helm and the head located fwd, there is nothing to impair vision. (My refernce to "Liz" was indeed about the vision aft - with small children and dogs aboard, I like to be able to see every quarter....)
I'm still a little baffled by the concern over side-deck access - it takes me less than 5 seconds to unzip one of my side curtains. I have immediate access to anywhere I want. I modified the operations of the covers on my own boat to suit my own needs - I'll try to post a pic if I can find one....

Gary - alas I can't find a site showing the "Crackerjack" to which you refer - any suggestions...
Here's another small aft cabin cruiser. But once again - there ain'i no cockpit to speak of - where do you sit?

Willallison

07-10-2002, 12:00 AM

'nother thought....
I would agree with Tom as far as deadrise - indeed 12 degrees is the figure I had in mind. But I think we could successfully sharpen the entry a little without losing too much interior space - not as much as the Badnam...

http://www.boats-uk.co.uk/Pages/Red%20Fox%20Yachts/Badnam.htm

Portager

07-10-2002, 12:05 AM

The Badnam Launch http://www.boats-uk.co.uk/Pages/Red%20Fox%20Yachts/Badnam.htm is very nice. The beam is only 7' 9". If you scaled the Badnam Launch up to 8' 6" it would be 27' 5" long. Not very far from O-1.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Portager

07-10-2002, 02:14 AM

As I said earlier, I've been investigating heater, stove and water heater options.

The best reference I found online is http://www.uaf.edu/seagrant/boatkeeper/boat-heat.pdf very informative.

I looked into combined stove, furnace and water heaters, but the problem with these units is you can't get hot water without heating up the cabin. This might be very inconvenient in the summer ;), so I discarded this option.

The next option was to combine the water heater and space heater. By using a Hydronic heat system (hot water with liquid to air heat exchangers aka radiator) we can provide highly controllable zone heating and hot water. I figured I could use a propane water heater with hydronics, but it turn out some tankless systems don't hold up to this well. I did find the Takagi TK-2 can be used. http://www.energyfirsthomes.com/Takagi.htm . Suggested list price is $1497.00.

There are several diesel systems that can be used for Hydronic heat and hot water. I checked into several systems and I think the Webasto Thermo 90S looks like the best choice. I got pricing from a dealer. The cost of the unit is $1,750.85 but the complete install kit (including the heater) is $3,209.00 this includes exhaust pipe, muffler, mounting brackets, 100' of hose, ...

I assume the installation cost for the Takagi would be about the same as the Webasto, but the propane system will also require a propane locker and gas sniffers ~$250. Propane tanks are more expensive than diesel tanks and must be stored higher on the boat to meet the propane locker venting requirements.

Stoves: I think the real kicker is the stove. Gas stoves are much cheaper and easier to use. Diesel stoves weigh more and they take longer to heat up and take longer to cool off, so they heat up the cabin more. Another option would be to use a portable butane stove ~$59 which could be moved to the cockpit if it gets too hot in the cabin. One disadvantage is you don't get an oven. The Butane canisters could be stored in a bag attached to the aft rail.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Portager

07-10-2002, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by Willallison
alas I can't find a site showing the "Crackerjack" to which you refer - any suggestions...

I could scan it form "The Nature of Boats", but would I violate copyright laws if I posted it? I could reference the book or maybe somebody knows how to ask Dave Geer for permission?

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Willallison

07-10-2002, 02:53 AM

Mike, from all that we seem to be left with the propane tankless system as the only sensible option.
I did manage to find one site which looked promising http://www.homeportcommunications.com/ , but the system is still under development and when I made enquiries about its suitability for our project I got almost nothing in reply.....

Portager

07-10-2002, 10:09 AM

Will;

I wouldn't say the propane tankless system is the only sensible option. The Diesel heaters are more mature and safer. I was in error when I said the diesel stoves were more expensive than propane. I forgot how expensive marine propane stoves are.

One thing I forgot to mention is the Hydronic heat systems can draw a fair amount of electrical power from the battery bank for the circulation pump. This will necessitate a larger battery bank for very cold climates.

For the Butane stove I'd use something like this US $64.99. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=10786&outlet= and the canister storage bag is US $29.99 http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=28322&store_num=&store_name=&subdept_num=&subdept_name=&class_num=&class_name=&outlet= .

Here is a two burner propane drop-in range US $399.99 http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=10777&store_num=&store_name=&subdept_num=&subdept_name=&class_num=&class_name=&outlet= if you want a stone and oven then here is a typical one for US $1,149.99 http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=10766&store_num=&store_name=&subdept_num=&subdept_name=&class_num=&class_name=&outlet=

Here are some diesel stoves for comparison http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/shop/categories-stoves.asp . The Bristol Diesel Cookstove with Oven is US $1,008.00.

Here is an example of a propane locker (although a handyman could build his own for le$$) US $549.99 single 10 lb bottle. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=10810&store_num=&store_name=&subdept_num=&subdept_name=&class_num=&class_name=&outlet= and a double 10 lb bottle box US$ 649.99 http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=201&prrfnbr=10811&store_num=&store_name=&subdept_num=&subdept_name=&class_num=&class_name=&outlet=.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

tom28571

07-10-2002, 12:15 PM

I used a 2 burner cooktop that I got from sears about 25 years ago that was built into a portable wooden "galley" containing the small 17oz propane bottle, utensil drawer, frypan and small pot. I used it in a sailboat and a campervan until I sold the boat. Then I could not find another similar and used a portable Coleman for 10 years. Recently I found a stainless drop-in cooktop that works great but requires an additional regulator to work with the small bottles. It's available from Vitco and is far cheaper than anything bought from a marine store - about $85.

http://www.vitco.com/ws/2_Burner_Stove_2.html

It can be had in stainless or white enamel built in to a portable box and the quality looks just as good as the high priced stuff.

We have always screwed the bottle on when for use and removed afterwards. The bottles are stored in the cockpit in an overboard draining locker. We mostly cook in the cockpit anyway and this keeps odors and heat out of the interior. We don't mind the camping lifestyle as long as there is plenty of comfortable room to avoid "cabin fever".

On the vision thing, the Badnam vision seems to be poor. The skipper pokes out through a hole in the cabintop to see over the bow. In bad weather, he must sit much lower where forward vision is very limited. Not good. There is also an outside steering station on the aft cabin bulkhead where he also looks over the cabintop.

Making the pilothouse sole self draining with the cockpit would make the top at least 8 inches higher and it is already as high as I'd want on a small and light boat like this. The sidedeck access on "Liz" would be limited by a cockpit canopy because the side decks are so high you would bang your head on the canopy climbing out of the cockpit. There are ways around this but not on my boat as it's built.

Portager

07-10-2002, 05:33 PM

Tom;

I think the portable stoves are fine provided the gas bottle is removed after use and stored in a vented locker as you do. This saves a lot of cost and allows you to use the stove in the cockpit on warm days. A locker for the small propane cylinders could be built-in just about anywhere. I would like to see a simple clamp or latch to hold the stove in place if you fit a wake or one hits you unexpectedly.

All;

How about Sam Devlin's Surf Scoter 25'? http://www.devlinboat.com/dcsurfscoter25.htm . It is very close to O-1's objectives (except for the hot shower, it is a semi-displacement hull, ...). With the added length you could make the head/shower bigger and/or increase the area in the cockpit. It doesn't look like the Surf Scoter 25 mid-cabin is self bailing though. I'm not sure we have enough beam or low enough CG to raise the mid-cabin enough to do that (at least not without getting rid of my hardtop;)). Our outboard will produce a higher CG than the Surf Scoter diesel stern drive.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Polarity

07-10-2002, 06:47 PM

What about kerosene/white spirit/parrafin - basically all the same stuff more or less refined.
My Taylors cooker and seperate heater (with a Hot water option) works great!, its cheap, easy to store, if there is a leak you get a smell and a wet patch. No Kaboom! Ok so you have to burn a little meths/alcohol/vodka to get it heated up but that takes 20 secs then it's just like gas. ...
Cooker: http://www.chillington-marine.co.uk/taylors_030l.htm

Heater: http://www.chillington-marine.co.uk/taylors_079d.htm

Seperate pressurised tank and the stuff is about as flammable as diesel. - ie not very!
You can just imagine one of these beauties in 8's One hour sketch on a cold Alaska day. Warms you to the toes dont it...

Paul
(Barcelona where it is presently V Hot!)

Willallison

07-10-2002, 07:12 PM

As I've said before, I use a little portable methylated spirits burning heater. As long as you ensure sufficient room ventilation, it works extremely well. And it uses the same fuel as the Kenyon 2-burner spirit coocktop that I have.
All these systems are great - as are many of those that others have posted. The problem is coming up with a system which will also provide hot water.....hopefully I'll have an alternative by days end.....watch this space.......
Incidentally, I recently installed a Magma bbq on the back of my boat (heat bead type). It's fantastic! Suddenly I can have roasts, fish, steak - you name it - and all the smell and mess stays outside.........

duluthboats

07-10-2002, 08:33 PM

http://www.nimbus.se/docpic/15.history.jpg

Will, the site opens here at work, and this boat has more room in the aft cabin then I was thinking.

Tom, I went to the C-Dory dealer to check the hull. I could have saved myself the trip. :D For some reason I remember them with more deadrise.

Mike, I like all of Devlin's boats.

Gary

tom28571

07-10-2002, 09:00 PM

I hoped to see the Surf Scoter 25 last year at Port Townsend but Sam said that the only one was in use by the owner and not available. I am fairly familiar with Devlin's boats and the 25 does have a lot of the same features of Bluejacket but it is a far, far heavier hull. Heck, the 22 is much heavier than Bluejacket too. His boats are very nice although not true planing boats and pretty expensive for my wallet. I drove the 22 in Puget Sound some years ago. It kind of shoulders it's way through waves rather than jumping over them and for it's purpose a very nice boat.

Portager

07-10-2002, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by tom28571
I am fairly familiar with Devlin's boats and the 25 does have a lot of the same features of Bluejacket but it is a far, far heavier hull. Heck, the 22 is much heavier than Bluejacket too. His boats are very nice although not true planing boats and pretty expensive for my wallet. I drove the 22 in Puget Sound some years ago. It kind of shoulders it's way through waves rather than jumping over them and for it's purpose a very nice boat.

Although not exactly what O-1 is intended to be, it is closer to my likes. The Pacific here in Southern California can get rough and I have learned that what goes up must come down. I've had enough of the coming down part, so I am looking for a boat that goes up less.

Sam claims the Surf Scoter 25 will do 26 knots max and cruise at 18-20 knots with a 135 HP diesel duo-prop stern drive. Sounds pretty good to me. I'd gladly sacrifice a little speed on the flat for better speed and comfort in the rough.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

Portager

07-11-2002, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by Polarity
What about kerosene/white spirit/parrafin - basically all the same stuff more or less refined.
My Taylors cooker and seperate heater (with a Hot water option) works great!, its cheap, easy to store, if there is a leak you get a smell and a wet patch. No Kaboom! Ok so you have to burn a little meths/alcohol/vodka to get it heated up but that takes 20 secs then it's just like gas. ...
Cooker: http://www.chillington-marine.co.uk/taylors_030l.htm

Heater: http://www.chillington-marine.co.uk/taylors_079d.htm

Seperate pressurised tank and the stuff is about as flammable as diesel. - ie not very!
You can just imagine one of these beauties in 8's One hour sketch on a cold Alaska day. Warms you to the toes dont it...)

According to this web site http://www.solentmarine.co.uk/product-Taylors%20Cookers.html the Taylor 030 is £999.00 that is US $1,548 and http://www.solentmarine.co.uk/product-Taylors%20Heaters.html the Taylor 079 is £599.00 or US $927. I know these are only list price and you could probably find a better deal, but so are the rest of the prices I provided.

Do you have the water heater option in your stove? If so how well does it work?

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

tom28571

07-11-2002, 12:57 PM

It's all about choices Mike. The volume and cruising amenities of Bluejacket and the Surf Scoter 25 are very much alike. Where they differ most is in weight and cost. Few believe me when I say that I built and launched "Liz" for $15,300 including the expensive four stroke and a new tandem axle aluminum trailer but I have the records to prove it. The Scoter 25 would set you back at least $80,000 - plus power and trailer. Total would probably be over $100,000. That is just out of my league and out of the league of most who would undertake to build their own.

Yeah, I agree that the Scoter would be more comfortable in rough seas and Sam builds a fine boat so there is no complaint on that score. Another thing is the trailing weight, which would be at or over 6,000lbs. That would require the purchase of a special costly vehicle that I have no other use for. I tow my 3,000lb package with a GMC V6 Safari that is our primary vehicle.

This past weekend I made a 120 mile trip on the local sounds and ICW with the first 30 miles into a fairly stiff northeaster. Yes, it was a bit rough but not unbearable and the other boats, all heavier and deeper hulls, faired somewhat better but not a whole lot. No one was real comfortable until we turned the corner into more protected water.

If I did not favor the trailerable aspect so much, I might be inclined toward more displacement and size. But, as I said, it's all about personal choices and compromises. We can get to our chosen cruising grounds fast and spend less time in the boat, so the lack of what, to some might be essential features, are not such a big deal to us.

Polarity

07-11-2002, 03:31 PM

Ahh yes, despite my ravings "cheap" was not a word I used! They do however last at least a lifetime. I don't have hot water installed, but I could see that basically all that was required was a copper coil wound around the heater. i think I am more of a fan of the fuel than of specifically that manufacturer. I like the fact that I could pull up to a barge in Holland and for 20$ buy enough fuel for cooking and heating for a couple of months! You can even use Av-gas if you have a good supply...

Cheers Paul

duluthboats

07-11-2002, 08:01 PM

“The Scoter 25 would set you back at least $80,000 - plus power and trailer. Total would probably be over $100,000.”
Tom Lathrop

Tom, Sam will build you a Surf Scoter for $50K. All you add is a motor. For the home builder the outlay would be less than $12K before the motor. Plywood, glass, and resin aren’t all that expensive. The labor is what gets you.

Gary

Portager

07-11-2002, 10:06 PM

Tom;

I didn't intend to insult you or Liz/BlueJacket. I was just pointing out that the Surf Scoter 25 sounds more like the type of boat I want/need.

You are correct that the cost would be higher and I could not tow it with my 2002 Bravada :mad: OTOH where I live in Southern California there are very few sheltered areas. As soon as you leave the harbor you are in the Pacific Ocean. We don't have an ICW and the fishing and diving gets better the further out you go.

I know the Surf Scoter 25 would cost more, but a boat isn't much good if I can't use it or if it won't get me where I want to go.

Polarity;

So when you said it was cheap you were talking about the fuel, but not the stove and heater? If the cost of the alternative is equal to or more than a good diesel stove, I'll choose diesel. The fuel is available at nearly all fuel docks and the combustion is totally contained and vented outside. Even clean burning fuels consume oxygen and can cause oxygen deprivation.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

tom28571

07-11-2002, 10:12 PM

>Gary said, Tom, Sam will build you a Surf Scoter for $50K. All you add is a motor. For the home builder the outlay would be less than $12K before the motor. Plywood, glass, and resin aren’t all that expensive. The labor is what gets you. <

Gary,

Take a look at Devlin's website.

http://www.devlinboat.com/dcfp.htm

The 22 lists for $46,000 w/o power or trailer. The 27 lists for $103,000 in the same configuration. No price is listed for the 25, so I just interpolated but I'll bet that I'm pretty close on the estimate.

I know about the hours, having put in a lot of them.

I'm a fan of Sam's boats and would have a Topknot if I won the lottery. People often ask if my boat is a Surf Scoter and I take that as a complement.

tom28571

07-11-2002, 10:35 PM

Mike, I took no offense. We must be able to challenge each other's ideas or opinions or we will never get anywhere. It's part of the deal.

I completely agree that if a boat is to satisfy the user, the design must take the intended conditions and intended use seriously. One thing that I notice is that most people think their local conditions are tougher than most others. I live near three of the most dangerous capes in the US so bad water is a fact of life.

Still, I chose to go for a boat not intended to challenge these bad boys. If I intended to run to Catalina there or out to the Gulf Stream here on a regular basis, you can bet I would want a more sea kindly hull. I'm pretty sure which one of those is the tougher trip too. The lack of inshore cruising in Southern California and it's relative abundance on the east coast here makes our choices potentially different.

duluthboats

07-11-2002, 11:03 PM

Tom
:) My point was that to compare the Scooter to LIZ in cost you have to figure what it would cost you to build a Scooter. Not the cost to buy one from Sam.
Gary

Willallison

07-12-2002, 06:34 AM

Ok, so here are a few pics of "Incentive", my 27ft Searay. These show how I've altered the covers to make the cockpit a far more pleasant environment. Previously the covers were dark blue and had very little in the way of 'clears'. I show this as an example of the way that I envision O-1 as the soft-top option.
From the rear view, you can see that I simply zip open the rear 'door' to gain access from the back. All the side covers can be rolled up for easy access to the side decks. And of course all the various parts can be individually removed altogether. I'm currently playing around with some very lightweight (parachute type material) curtains which can be put up inside. They will be velcroed in place and will help to preserve the interior from the sun.

I've loaded the pics into the gallery:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=124&thumb=1

tom28571

07-12-2002, 09:04 AM

Gary,

As Cool Hand Luke's chain gang boss would say "What we have here is a failure to communicate." Yeah, I probably should have said that more clearly, but thought the difference in cost basis was obvious.:D

We might have taken something like Sam's Black crown 27 as a starting point but am not sure how he would feel about that. The Black Crown is just a big Scoter. It's not a scooter, by the way, a surf scoter is a sea duck. Liz is a birdwatcher and keeps me straight on that stuff.:cool:

Will,

I can see how your boat gets warm in cold sunny weather. I've traveled the ICW in winter with and without such a cover on sailboats and can really appreciate your setup. Comfort and misery are separated by such a rig. I'm working on a 20 ft version of the Bluejacket and will use such a cover on one option. I am toying with using an arch over the aft end of the convertible top so that the top folds aft against this instead of forward over the windshield as is normally done. The aft curtain wall would attach to the arch also. What does anyone think of this idea and has anyone seen it before?

Willallison

07-12-2002, 09:04 PM

Tom,
Really need a sketch to be certain about what you are suggesting. The 'roof' of my covers zip apart about 1/2 way back. The rear section folds and rolls around a hoop support at the rear. This works well as it enables us to completely uncover the aft section of the cockpit if we want to. One thing I would suggest, is to ensure that you have full standing headroom under the covers - had to raise mine by a couple of inches to achieve this. Otherwise, even with the covers rolled back, you will be forever banging your head on the 'hoop'.
You're right about the difference decent covers can make - the changes I made (from dark blue to white, slightly higher, and more 'clears) have completely transformed how we use the boat. We virtually live in the cockpit now, as regardless of weather it provides a pleasant environment.

Willallison

07-12-2002, 09:07 PM

Thinking more about your idea Tom, I think you are suggesting something a hardtop with a sort of large fabric sunroof and roll up covers in place of the rear cabin bulkhead.
If so, I think it's an excellent idea. Reminiscent of the big Sunseekers and Pershings etc out of Europe.
The only downside, is that you lose the security of a lock up cabin, which may or may not matter....

tom28571

07-13-2002, 09:09 PM

Will, Here is a simple sketch of what I was working on a couple of years ago before I decided on a fixed pilothouse. I'm now looking at it again for the 20 ft model. I guess you could call it a roll bar except that sounds kind of stupid. Anyway, it forms a very stable rig to secure the opened convertible top and hang the aft curtain wall from.

Since I would have a self draining cockpit thhat would step down at just forward of the curtain wall, it would definitely be possible to bonk your head going forward but I'm willing to put up with that to get standing headroom under the top and keep it lower.

Maybe Hinckley will want to sue me over the sweeping curve of the side wall.:D

Willallison

07-14-2002, 06:25 PM

.....more 'traditional' in appearance. but otherwise very similar to the soft-top option I put forward for O-1.
Two suggestions. The first is that if possible, I'd hinge the forward hoop from the base of the 'roll bar' (radar arch?). That way when you fold the covers back the whole thing will be more compact. It may encroach on you headroom too much, I'm not sure.
The other is that, whilst it makes the styling more difficult, I'd try to incorporate as much height into the side sections of the windscreens as possible. The newer types of clears are good, but they aren't as good as glass. On my boat, with its swoopy profile I find that I'm quite often dipping my head down to look through the glass to get a clearer view.

Don't think Hinckley have built a soft-top picnic boat have they? But then given that they were the first to ever use Lobsterboat styling, I guess they must have...?!?

tom28571

07-14-2002, 07:48 PM

I don't thik it will work very well for the forward hoop to be permanently attached to the arch. Unless the canopy is pretty short, the geometry doesn't work out. The hoop could be on an short interior sliding track or moved from the arch to the forward location. I spent several hours yesterday on a boat with the upper forward part of the canopy made of vinyl in order to get standing headroom on a 17 foot boat with a self bailing cockpit. It was possible to look out through the thing but at speed visibility was definitely not good. I would try for a windshield high enough for good vision standing or sitting but in smaller boats it gets awkwardly high.

I would laminate the arch of wood and make it oval shaped with the upper part lined up horizontal in the major axis. It would make an excellent place to install antennas of various types. It would be made strong enough to take abuse such as a heavy crew hanging onto it for support. It takes a little away from the traditional appearance that I prefer but seems very practical.