Westlawn School

[JCFARER]

Ahoy there mates...

Need a little help. My son has given some serious opinion to the wife about taking the coursework at Westlawn. I apparantly will have to dish out the $8K plus $$ for all the other stuff that will need to be purchased. "I don't mind the money" (my wife said that I'm supposed to say this) but when I went to see what kinds of books are part of their curriculum...they only have supplementary books that are required to be purchased in order to graduate.

Has anyone here gone through all 4 courses and have a list of the books and their authors that I can research to see if this $8K plus will be worth the finances? I ask this because it's distant learning and feel like I need to protect the money that can go towards building a boat instead. Actually, and hopefully, I will be able to make a massive argument as to why he should get a @$$%^%^^%%*** job and pay for it himself (I paid for my masters degree when I was growing up) but the wife say's that I'm suppossed to know "that was different". :confused:

Any help will be greatly appreciated and if you should think about joining me in a united front it would be even better. :idea:

Jay

[CDBarry]

Please read the various threads on Westlawn and a career in the small vessle industry in general.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

You have a very tricky call here - obvious - since you have bothered to put it to this forum...

First off - Westlawn is a good bit - it is registered (somehow) within the States - it was affiliated with MIT and The Arts School of Design on the west coast within their automotive design school which is a brain pool for 'the big three' - as they stand just now I cannot say...

Some of the most motivated and famous designers have Westlawn under their belt including Dave Gerr and Tom Fexas and hell - even Dan Parker - whom I have worked for - (search Monaro Marine) - BUT - being distance learning your kid has to very - EXTREMELY motivated and able to create and MAINTAIN a schedule for himself - when I did it it was open ended - now they have a set time for each of the four modules and a 'no money back' offer against same - very much a contract - you and the school - you and your kid...

Now bear in mind the cost for this and him staying at home versus same hitting you up for undergrad and further studies at an out of state school - that sounds like a second mortgage to me - and if he stays at home let him do the lawn work, the kitchen mods, walk the dog, take out the trash, clean the garage (it can work in your favour 'out of kind repayment') - an enforced slave for his future - what else are kids for... :)

Westlawn might be a good option against same - if I were you I would take him to the pub and draw up a contract - front him the money under him getting a job a paying it back if he is SERIOUS about things - free rides are for senators sons...

I will stop there - and go listen to some old CCR tunes...

'when you ask them how much should we give - the answers always - more, more, more... - then they point the cannon at you - yah - it ain't me - it ain't me - I ain't no senators son - yah'... :)

OK - the truth - I am for the kid really - you piss him off now - think about when you have to retire - who are you going to call to move your bits to the home... :)

Cheers - best of...

SH.

[JCFARER]

Hello CDBarry...

Care to point in which direction?

Thanks
Jay

[JCFARER]

Hello Sean Herron...

I guess this means that you won't be in the trenches with me when I make my last stand...but all your ideas sound great. I'm just not real convinced that there are enough Westlawn successes to justify this school instead of a regular college education. Know what I mean? Get college and then get this sounds fine to me but not the other way around.

Don't get me wrong, I want for him what he wants for himself but how many Westlawn grads are actually making enough to live and not exist. There may be a lot but I don't know more than you named and I saw on their site. It just seems that if he isn't successful at it then he has a non successful education and will have to get another, again.

How do they go from MIT to car design to Boat design? Geez...

Okay... if anyone has a list of the books that they use for coursework, ... you know...help me.

Thank's

Jay

[MRJones]

I just started Westlawn. I have a 4 year degree, a BS in business economics. I have been working in the marine field for 1 year. I have to agree that one has to be motivated to do this course. Here is the list that I asked for while I was looking at Westlawn. I hope this helps.



Tight Lines,

Matthew Jones

[JCFARER]

Ahoy Mr. Jones...

Thank's for the response. The PDF list you enclosed is the same one I looked at on their site which are the supplementary books that they require. I was more interested in looking at the technical content of the 28 books that they say is included in the tuition and the course is based upon.

The other PDF is a given because if the kid needs the tools then he needs the tools.

Fair winds...
Jay

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Drinking black coffee and rye - morning after maintenance... :)

So it sounds like you are still looking for the old 3R's approach to life - which is justified - if the kid completes studies at a known college - it shows he has some sticking power for future 'working for the man' and he has some socialization skills - plus the job interviewer won't be asking 'what is Westlawn' - I agree that formal studies within a social group of people doing the same, the competition, the women, the pub down the road - all contribute to personal growth beyond the formality of the degree granted - where home study does not...

That said though wherever I have gone within the marine industries - Westlawn rang a familiar bell...

How about downloading trial versions of the CADD and 3D bits and trying them out - I would have to say that the student savings are pretty damned significant over commercial liscenses - kind of shows you how much these studios are making in profits... :)

Right - hope it all works out - lastly I agree the kid needs to at least make a showing at trying to meet entry requirements for a standard program of education - Westlawn should not be an excuse for fear of a proper college go around...

Yup...

SH.

[JCFARER]

Hello Sean Herron

Thank's for the post...was a little hard to follow, but I guess it said the same thing I'm thinking.

Jay

[chandler]

J.C.
Are you a multi degree holder earning a ton of money?
Is your kid an over or under acheiver. Does conventional college not appeal to him or her? Did they do so well in their sat's that you feel they should be in medical school? Did they do so poorly that community college is their only option. Do you care what they want to do? Is the bottom line of their income your only concern.
I grew up in a family that a degree was mandatory, fortunately my father mellowed with age. I was able to pursue my chosen field which after 21/2 years of university was carpentry. I've made a decent living building homes for the last 25 years. I'm now embarking on a new career as builder and designer of boats. Primarily for my own use. I live in Maine and want to sail to warmer climes, but I can't afford a home in Fl.
Take these ideas into consideration when you contemplate your childs future.
If the child is over 21, get a job and pay for it themselves!
chandler

[CDBarry]

Look under the education forum.

The point is that Westlawn should probably be considered the last resort if what is desired is a career as a designer in the marine industry. (If it's a hobby, then it doesn't matter).

Also, your son should try to investigate the field first - try to find a working design firm and get an informational interview.

In the general marine field there are a lot of low cost alternatives and support for higher education. The best school in the US, Webb Institute, has zero tuition, for example.

[JCFARER]

Hello there Chandler:

I will try to answer these as best I can although it doesn't exactly help me to get the list of books that I would like to scrutinize before paying for the course at West lawn.

J.C.
Are you a multi degree holder earning a ton of money?
I guess I can be looked at that way...I'm double degreed and worked in my field until I was able to retire comfortably at the age of 42 from the interest on investments I made overseas. I don't measure money by weight, by if had to make a good guess, I don't think I make it by the ton.

Is your kid an over or under acheiver.
I believe him to be both depending on his mood at the time and whether it benefits him to be one or the other, but it isn't consistently long term in either end.

Does conventional college not appeal to him or her?
Actually it did for a little while...but see answer above for more clarity.

Did they do so well in their sat's that you feel they should be in medical school?
Actually they did, I think my daughter maxed out hers and he did about 1150, but I never really thought about pushing them to be anything outside of what they wanted to be in life. I just gave them direction and guidance and protected them from deceipt and deceivers.

Did they do so poorly that community college is their only option.
Nope... I can actually say that I'm proud of their accomplishments, but it's for this very reason that I say that Westlawn is not his only option. I always tell them to "be the best that they can be and do the best that they can do and then be and do everything else." It's sick I know, but on closer inspection a doctor can be a nurse but a nurse can't be a doctor.

Do you care what they want to do?
That question is self answered because if I didn't I wouldn't be here looking for answers in order to better advise him on future endeavors. In the end, he may do what he wants anyway, but failing shouldn't become the normal because you get used to it fast and then make it a practicing habit.

Is the bottom line of their income your only concern.
If it was, I definitely would not be considering Westlawn. But you better believe that it is definitely a concern right after his young and hurried desires.

I grew up in a family that a degree was mandatory, fortunately my father mellowed with age. I was able to pursue my chosen field which after 21/2 years of university was carpentry.
Good for you. I hope that he also decides to continue his trade (electrical). I come from a long line of tradesmen but some of us didn't just decide to frame homes, we decided to study the materials and design those home also. Me, I grew up in a family where everyone wanted a degree because no one had it.

I've made a decent living building homes for the last 25 years. I'm now embarking on a new career as builder and designer of boats. Primarily for my own use. I live in Maine and want to sail to warmer climes, but I can't afford a home in Fl.
Again, good for you. I don't care what you do for a living as long as it doesn't include putting a gun in your hands and taking someone elses living from their pockets. I wish you well in your endeavor to become a builder and designer of boats and whom said that you have to live in florida to sail in warm climates? I sail all the time and the minute I get past So. Carolina, its warm and its cheap. Live on board if money is really the issue. I have the money to splurge when I cruise and I still wash my clothes by hand. I do my own repairs and sew my own sails. If you want the comforts of home stay home.

Take these ideas into consideration when you contemplate your childs future.
Chandler, It is an indisputable fact that those concerns, all those concerns, crossed my mind from the moment the children were conceived, unequivocally and long before you thought about those ideas, but thank's for the advise.

If the child is over 21, get a job and pay for it themselves!
That's what I say, but I also remember that my father took the time to overlook my stupid attacks and didn't allow the brain fart to cloud my judgement. He showed me options and possible outcomes of my decisions and then gave me direction and advise. I need to do this for him because in the end, I made good decisions and I made bad decisions, but I never suffered from tunnel vision in order to get my way "no matter what".
chandler

Now, all people of this forum if we can just focus on the question at hand instead of making this a blast daddy (grandaddy) session... do you have a list of the books for the Westlawn courses so that I can take a looksie at whether they are written by starving playwrights or if they will offer technical, scientifically proven and published data. Math is math, he can learn it in college, art is art, he can learn that in college, naval architecture or marine enginnering he can learn in college. Westlawn should be supplemental to a college degree because with a degree at least you can take on the most thankless jobs of all...teaching. The wifey is upset now because she was a teacher.

If you find yourself needing some advise in the future...e-mail me, I now feel committed to help after this whole personal rhetoric. Geez, you and everyone here now knows enough to be family. Oh, the wifey said to lighten up a little bit and don't be so angry. :D

Jay

[mackid068]

Always, always always listen to your wife! (I'm not married but I know this from experience, as should everybody)

[fede]

It is a very delicate situation you find your self in JC.
I guess future today is so uncertain for all of us...
I'm living in a country (Italy) where things are all messed up,sometimes i meet people with a good degree that are starving,sometimes i meet people that did not complete the high school that make a lot of money...of course sometimes I meet people with a deg. that make even more money!! eheh
What I get now that I'm entering my 30's is that if you want something bad enough you will get it deg. or no deg.
it's the person you are that makes things different...and of course, school helps becoming a better (sometimes worst) person...no doubt.
Sometimes kids need theire parents taking decisions for them,I've seen many friends taking bad decisions and regreting later.
Sit down with yuour kid, with college brochures a detailed westlawn brochure, some facts about the people coming out of those schools, explain deeply your concerns about his future,listen to his concerns,try to let him understand you have to join forces to make his life the best it can be...
Try not to separate your decision and his decision...try to make it one let him work on your point of view...let your self work on his point of view.

[Raggi_Thor]

I think you shold consider the MacNoughton school as well. There you pay as you go so it's less risky, also the fees are a bit lower and the teachers are practicing yact designers.
http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/school.htm

[Willallison]

JC - I am almost through to the end of the Westalwn course. The text books are proprietry books written by recognised authors specifically for the course. Their 'cost' is covered by the tuition fees. All are in the process of undergoing a thorough modernisation. I would suggest that you talk directly to the school - they are very approachable and I'm sure would be very happy to answer any questions that you might have.
I have learned an enormous amount from doing the course. In spite of CD Barry's remarks (he has very srong feelings on this, over which we've clashed before! ;) ) I would recommemd it to almost anyone. It is not the be-all-and-end-all - it is a 1st step into a career in yacht design (like all forms of education). Depending on what field your son wants to enter, it may or amy not be suitable - but note, it is not for the faint of heart (read motivation & dedication) there is a lot of work to be done and a lot to learn. Finsih it and he will have achieved something of which he can be proud.....

[water addict]

Can you convince him to go to a 4 year engineering school for Nav. Arch?
I've looked through a lot of the Westlawn stuff, and know one guy who went through the course. He ended up going back to 4yr engineering school and is working as a civil engineer because he couldn't make any money in yacht design. I went to 4yr nav. arch. school and had multiple job offers. If he goes to a 4 yr engineering school, he can pick up the westlawn texts and learn the yacht design specifics in a matter of weeks, or even days, if he digested the engineering. Plus he can get a good paying job, if he doesn't have yacht design work pounding in his door (which he won't). The reverse also won't hold, i.e. if he graduates from Westlawn, he won't be an engineer.

IMHO, to maximize your education investment, get the 4 year degree first.

[Raggi_Thor]

I agree, if he can stand 4 years at university level and then do the Macnaughton shool part time afterwords (while he has a well paid job).

[ChrisF]

The trend is toward increasing regulation in yacht design. I'm 58 and believe I can just about squeak through the rest of a yacht design career (in the US) without an engineering degree, but I think it's safe to assume that a youngster starting out in this field must choose between being a degreed engineer, or a draftsman (an underpaid slave who gets to draw other peoples' ideas).

[SeaDrive]

If you look back through the comments on the discussion board at the MacNaughton site (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/disc5_toc.htm) you may be able to find when he says that no one has ever finished the course. The reason given is that the students all get jobs first. The real reason is.... well, I don't know if there is some other reason, but it's not a recommendation.

An engineering degree is the way to go if possible, but the NA courses and the current license exams are not focused on small craft. The current situation is unsatisfactory, and the trend is in the wrong direction.

[FRANK BARRETTO]

My Name Is Frank M.p.barretto.
Sorry To Bother You Mr. Jc Farer. I Don't Have The Kind Of Information You Are Asking. But I Would Like To Say That I'm In The Same Situation As Your Son. I Want To Attend For Some Yacht Design Course, But Havent Decided Between Westlawn Or The Macnoughton Yacht Design Course. All I Have To Say Is That My Father Told Me That He Would Do Anything To Help Me Get My Freedom, Not To Be A Slave Working For A Salary. And These Words Made Me Feel That My Father Is Really My Best Friend. No Matter What I Do With This #"%&%& Degree, He Is Happy That I'm Trying To Be The Best That I Can.
Of Course I Won't Let Him Pay, But Those Words Ment So Much...

[chandler]

Hi J.C.
That was a great post. I'm using the Mcnaughton course for the same reason as Raggi Thor. If I feel I've learned what I want , I can move on without a huge commitment of time and money. My only knowledge of Westlawn is what I've read in their brochures and website. I can't imagine the book list would include any fluff as Mcnaughtons does not.
Take a look at Mcnaughton. If it doesn't pan out it would definately be less of an investment and definately not a waste of time.
Chandler

[JCFARER]

Hawdy all...

I'm not exactly sure what I have started here but thank you all. I'm not sure for what, but it sounds good, so my hat off to all of you.

I have in fact looked at the list of books...and it looks like the kiddo might have some serious reading to do, so I don't feel so bad...but, I also decided to look at the McNaughton group and I am quite impressed with their approach. I am enclosing below the e-mail that was sent to me when I inquired about the school. I have put in bold, the things I think are important for personal and spiritual growth and am almost inclined to take up the course with my son since I will probably have to sit with him and break it down anyway.


"You can find negative comments about every school. We have had 3 students in our 15 year history who quit mad, despite our best efforts, and one of them said the most amazing and twisted things about us on the Internet. So I would be cautious about negative statements about Westlawn or any school. They may not be justified. The best thing is to follow up with the school about any negative comments and see what they did to try to resolve the situation. That can tell you a lot about their attitude.

Distance learning mostly takes the passion to keep going. The limitation that Westlawn has for your son may be in the limits on the way they teach. We make it very clear that if your math and drawing skills have problems we will help you to any extent you need to learn these things. Westlawn very specifically, in letters I have been shown, tells students that it is not their job to teach them math and drawing. The only requirement like that which we have is that students must be reasonably fluent in English. This is not out of lack of desire to help those coming from a different language culture but simply our own lack of ability in other languages. We have students who have had great trouble with multiplying and dividing and students whose first boat drawing was completely unrecognizable as a boat. We work with them to evolve procedures and methods that get them around these problems. Another point, if you are worried about your son’s discipline, is that we charge on a per lesson basis, there are no time limits, and there are no “late” or “extension” fees.

Yes, Westlawn does have a lot more “hype” than we do. But please remember that it is a matter of choosing a style of promotion that will bring in the type of students you work well with. They try to paint a picture of prestige and dominance because there are many potential students out there who are very impressed with that. We try to present a humbler, more personal, style because that works best at attracting the students we work best with. They are looking primarily for people who wish to get jobs in the drafting departments of boat “manufacturers”. We are looking primarily for people who want to get jobs with or found independent design firms or perhaps be in house designers for custom yacht builders. Their glossier style is also more appropriate to the “mass market” advertising that they do, whereas we do no advertising whatsoever. We simply rely on word of mouth to bring people to us either directly or by getting them to look at our web site. The “glossier” approach is not very appropriate to this type of promotion. So really these are just different marketing approaches, each appropriate to the target audience.

As to size, remember that the size of any school of yacht and small craft naval architecture is, of necessity, limited. As near as I can figure at any given time there are no more than 1,000 people seriously interested in studying yacht design in the whole world at any given time. This places a severe limit on how large schools can get and the number of viable schools. At present there are only four real schools of yacht design in the whole world. Our YDS and Westlawn are the two largest. The other two are relatively very small programs but do a good job at what they are attempting. Be careful of statistics though in comparing schools. Either Westlawn or YDS can be called the larger school depending on which statistics you quote. The difference is that we don’t want to be known as the larger school. We are much more interested in emphasizing the personal nature and focus on the individual student of our school. As to how long schools have “been in business”, that too is a matter of which facts you choose. We started teaching students as they came to us very quietly in 1989 and the school evolved steadily and slowly until we reached a “critical mass” in the late 90s when there were so many people recommending us that it suddenly started to “chain reaction”. Since then, we have grown very big, with quite a staff. So you can say we are 15 years old, still under the direction of the founder and with an evolving staff learning the traditions of the school as they join us and work with us. On the other hand there was a school named Westlawn decades ago. Somewhere in, I think, the late 1960s the original owner sold out to the NBBMA who put in their own staff and shortly thereafter completely re-wrote the curriculum to more effectively compete with the late great Yacht Design Institute, of which we are the spiritual successor. Was Westlawn then a new school of the same name as the old one, or the same school? About a year ago the same thing happened again. The Westlawn name and student list was sold to ABYC who fired the entire staff and put in their own people. Does that make it the same school or a new one? So you see many of these things are a matter of interpretation.

Do be sure to ask all the questions you want.


Sincerely,
Tom MacNaughton
Naval Architect
www.macnaughtongroup.com"


You see gents, these are things that make a difference in a person no matter what they want to be. I can tell you right now that with those principles, that cheap tuition with the option to get out anytime you want is irrelevant in my mind. Those values are priceless. My father taught me not to be a snob and sneer down at people regardless of how high you are on the ladder because one day they will sneer at you snobbishly while you're on the way down.

I don't see anything wrong if my son sat down with a poor broken down dreamer to design a work of art for them at at a loss. I would resent him if he didn't make time to do that so that he can sit with a rich healthy opportunist. Anybody see the difference?

Well, I plan to definitely look into this option and have every intention of giving the kiddo my findings, (objective) so that he can make a more informed decision.

For now, I have to answer all these other posts as it would be rude if I didn't.
Jay

[JCFARER]

In the general marine field there are a lot of low cost alternatives and support for higher education. The best school in the US, Webb Institute, has zero tuition, for example.

All true, but regarding the above...there is nothing for zero.:)

[JCFARER]

Always, always always listen to your wife! (I'm not married but I know this from experience, as should everybody)

Hello there bachelor...
Always have always will...not sure whom I would be or where I would be if I had'nt or don't.

[JCFARER]

It is a very delicate situation you find your self in JC.
I guess future today is so uncertain for all of us...
I'm living in a country (Italy) where things are all messed up,sometimes i meet people with a good degree that are starving,sometimes i meet people that did not complete the high school that make a lot of money...of course sometimes I meet people with a deg. that make even more money!! eheh
What I get now that I'm entering my 30's is that if you want something bad enough you will get it deg. or no deg.
it's the person you are that makes things different...and of course, school helps becoming a better (sometimes worst) person...no doubt.
Sometimes kids need theire parents taking decisions for them,I've seen many friends taking bad decisions and regreting later.
Sit down with yuour kid, with college brochures a detailed westlawn brochure, some facts about the people coming out of those schools, explain deeply your concerns about his future,listen to his concerns,try to let him understand you have to join forces to make his life the best it can be...
Try not to separate your decision and his decision...try to make it one let him work on your point of view...let your self work on his point of view.

Hello Fede...

I think I believe with most of what you say but there are some things that I'm not sure I would agree on.
Kids need parents to advise, guide and direct them instead of making decisions for them. If you inform them and give them wisdom to be able to reason out solutions to crossroads, then you have succeeded because in the end, they will unknowinly decide that which you most emphasize. After all, how can a 20 year old teach me how to be 21? :)

[JCFARER]

Can you convince him to go to a 4 year engineering school for Nav. Arch?
I've looked through a lot of the Westlawn stuff, and know one guy who went through the course. He ended up going back to 4yr engineering school and is working as a civil engineer because he couldn't make any money in yacht design. I went to 4yr nav. arch. school and had multiple job offers. If he goes to a 4 yr engineering school, he can pick up the westlawn texts and learn the yacht design specifics in a matter of weeks, or even days, if he digested the engineering. Plus he can get a good paying job, if he doesn't have yacht design work pounding in his door (which he won't). The reverse also won't hold, i.e. if he graduates from Westlawn, he won't be an engineer.

IMHO, to maximize your education investment, get the 4 year degree first.

Hawdy...

I'm not really into convincing anyne to do what I think they should do. I want him to do what he wants, but not because of compulsion. He needs to look at this systematically and methodically and then decide with passion. It's for him and not me...

[asathor]

If he reads half of the books and remember a third he'll be alright.

I would look to see if there was enought structure in the program to make that happen yet enough flexibility for him to follow his own course, selfstudy or excess rigidity is usually not the best aproaches with students with variyng levels of interest and commitment.

If $8000 could buy him a job he wouldn't need to go to school - if he doesn't learn anything it will only buy him an interview.

Get the degree first, if he doesn't want to go give him the $8000 in cash so he can start his own business building canoes and do it his own way.

Without experience "make believe degrees" are not worth anything - just ask the 100.000 IT folk who became "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers". A lot of them would have been better off if they had learned to build benches instead of sitting on them.

[JCFARER]

My Name Is Frank M.p.barretto.
Sorry To Bother You Mr. Jc Farer. I Don't Have The Kind Of Information You Are Asking. But I Would Like To Say That I'm In The Same Situation As Your Son. I Want To Attend For Some Yacht Design Course, But Havent Decided Between Westlawn Or The Macnoughton Yacht Design Course. All I Have To Say Is That My Father Told Me That He Would Do Anything To Help Me Get My Freedom, Not To Be A Slave Working For A Salary. And These Words Made Me Feel That My Father Is Really My Best Friend. No Matter What I Do With This #"%&%& Degree, He Is Happy That I'm Trying To Be The Best That I Can.
Of Course I Won't Let Him Pay, But Those Words Ment So Much...

No bother Frank...

If I can be of any help, just ask. My advise to you will probably be the same I will give my son You have to live with yourself before you can live with anyone else, so be someone you can live with and do what you want to do to live instead of doing something else so you can exist. Keep it real and be realistic...there is nothing wrong with making money because you have a degree or have accomplished a goal in any field. The wrong thing is having a degree or accomplishing a goal that didn't elevate your understanding and knowledge to a higher level. Yeah okay, you won't let him pay and he'll crawl on glass to make sure you don't pay for it...this is the dochotomy of parenthood and "sonhood". ;) Who can explain it. You should pay for it...it will give you a better understanding of the struggle to get what you want but we don't want you to struggle. Go figure. :D

[JCFARER]

Hi J.C.
That was a great post. I'm using the Mcnaughton course for the same reason as Raggi Thor. If I feel I've learned what I want , I can move on without a huge commitment of time and money. My only knowledge of Westlawn is what I've read in their brochures and website. I can't imagine the book list would include any fluff as Mcnaughtons does not.
Take a look at Mcnaughton. If it doesn't pan out it would definately be less of an investment and definately not a waste of time.
Chandler

Hawdy Chandler...the passionate one.

Thank's for your compliment but you need to understand that the post was just honest, no more and no less. Be patient and all things will materialize before you. I don't think you should move on once you feel you learned what you want because it sounds very limiting. Finish the course and then write them and ask about what else they have that you can learn. I think that learning is lifelongand if someone can teach you something without you having to overcome all the tribulations, then learn it. It hurts less and it lasts longer. ;) I now have the wifey telling me to practice what I preach so I might look at McNaughton too...I can give up some sail time I guess. :(

[Zewe]

I am with CD Barry about shooting for an informational interview. How about contacting Dave Gerr and asking him for an interview.

Randy

[CDBarry]

Webb is underwritten by donations from its alums and the marine industry, so it actually has zero tuition. There is a room and board, and books charge there, however, but I don't think it's excessive (Webb alumis might be able to comment re food). I guess they hope to get it from the students later ...

[water addict]

Hawdy...

I'm not really into convincing anyne to do what I think they should do. I want him to do what he wants, but not because of compulsion. He needs to look at this systematically and methodically and then decide with passion. It's for him and not me...

That's true- but if you are soliciting opinions in a public forum from people who work in the marine field....
It helps from a business perspective to have:
- qualifications
- successful, demonstrable experience.
He won't have experience, so qualifications can get him started to aquire the experience. Also, devoting oneself to be as qualified in a profession or field of endeavor, whatever it is, is the mark of quality craftsmanship. Deciding with passion may be fine if you are an artist, but if you are going to design a complex vehicle on which someone's life may hang in the balance, getting the best training you can might be prudent.

[JCFARER]

That's true- but if you are soliciting opinions in a public forum from people who work in the marine field....
It helps from a business perspective to have:
- qualifications
- successful, demonstrable experience.
He won't have experience, so qualifications can get him started to aquire the experience. Also, devoting oneself to be as qualified in a profession or field of endeavor, whatever it is, is the mark of quality craftsmanship. Deciding with passion may be fine if you are an artist, but if you are going to design a complex vehicle on which someone's life may hang in the balance, getting the best training you can might be prudent.

Hello there water addict...from the sound of your name, you must be passionate about what you do...

I'm not certain that I was soliciting opinions in a public forum from people that work in the marine field. :confused: I remember asking for a list of books to scrutinize...but hey that's just an oversite. From one engineer to another...please pay attention to the details and eliminate oversites since "someones life may hang in the balance". :D

All in all, I agree with you 100% except for the passion part. There is silent passion and passion with a rage. Both bring results that have meaning. Without passion anything worth doing is worthless and it becomes a machinized procedure as a means to an end. Done passionately, there is meaningful purpose to the cause and the result is priceless and full of anima. ALIVE WITH ENERGY!!! <~~~Just a little joke there to break this up...

Thank's for your thoughts...

[JCFARER]

I am with CD Barry about shooting for an informational interview. How about contacting Dave Gerr and asking him for an interview.

Randy

Pirates abeam...
Prepare to repel boarders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you think that asking their Director and or any staff at the school might lead to conflicts of interest and little "truthful lies or lying facts" (the wifey loves the contradiction when I say that...). I can't after all ask the shark to stop smelling my blood now can I?

"I seeeeee" said the blind man after he fell in the hole. <~~This gives you an idea of my condition if I ask them to articulate their beliefs on the school...blind, in a hole and hurt, but completely lucid and clear about my condition. :eek:

[CDBarry]

Start at the beginning of the alphabet: http://www.antrimdesign.com/

Give Jim my regards.

[Willallison]

JC - not sure if you caught my post 1st time around, so I'll repeat the bones of it:

JC - I am almost through to the end of the Westalwn course. The text books are proprietry books written by recognised authors specifically for the course. Their 'cost' is covered by the tuition fees. All are in the process of undergoing a thorough modernisation. I would suggest that you talk directly to the school - they are very approachable and I'm sure would be very happy to answer any questions that you might have.
I have learned an enormous amount from doing the course. I would recommemd it to almost anyone. It is not the be-all-and-end-all - it is a 1st step into a career in yacht design (like all forms of education). Depending on what field your son wants to enter, it may or amy not be suitable - but note, it is not for the faint of heart (read motivation & dedication) there is a lot of work to be done and a lot to learn. Finsih it and he will have achieved something of which he can be proud.....

[Sean Herron]

Hello again...

You know - it sounds like (to me) that the McNoughton group thing might be a good compromise - you seem not to want to shell out the big bucks and you also seem suspicious of your sons commitment levels against doing so...

MN group looks like a way of getting your feet wet without commiting to getting across the lake - nice new metaphor... :)

Or popping the glass out of a 79 Pontiac and going dirt tracking on the weekend to see if you might want to spend umteen bucks on getting into NASCAR - your son can "get a feel" (maybe when he does he will forget about boats all together) - no wait - different topic far more long term money commitment too... :)

I say dip your toes first - then commit...

Yup...

SH.

[JCFARER]

JC - not sure if you caught my post 1st time around, so I'll repeat the bones of it:

JC - I am almost through to the end of the Westalwn course. The text books are proprietry books written by recognised authors specifically for the course. Their 'cost' is covered by the tuition fees. All are in the process of undergoing a thorough modernisation. I would suggest that you talk directly to the school - they are very approachable and I'm sure would be very happy to answer any questions that you might have.
I have learned an enormous amount from doing the course. I would recommemd it to almost anyone. It is not the be-all-and-end-all - it is a 1st step into a career in yacht design (like all forms of education). Depending on what field your son wants to enter, it may or amy not be suitable - but note, it is not for the faint of heart (read motivation & dedication) there is a lot of work to be done and a lot to learn. Finsih it and he will have achieved something of which he can be proud.....


Willallison...must have missed it. There was just so much to consume. Sorry!

Its good to hear that someone is almost finished with it and I appreciate your honesty about the level of commitment. I too am a little worried that he might be setting himself up for failure...it just seems like a fever came upon him and I can't figure out the cause.
Jay

[JCFARER]

Sean Herron...

This sounds like a great plan, but it seems short term. I like the idea of damage control. :D

Jay

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Does the kid have a tech. mind - does he dream up and build things...

Does he have more artistic aptitude over mathematical...

Is he a romantic with thoughts of escape or travel...

Does he or did he like airplanes and the idea of flying...

Did he play with Lego and Meccano...

Does he like the idea of 'remote control'...

Today I kind of had some time to think about why I have ended up where I am now... :)

SH.

[Willallison]

Just one more comment that I think it's worth making.
You don't need to be a mathematical genius to understand and successfully complete the Westlawn course - at times there's a fair bit of it, but it's all pretty basic stuff....
I say this because that was my greatest concern before I started. It's over 20 years since I did any high-school maths, and my abilities are... well... lets just say ... limited ;)

[dgerr]

Westlawn has produced more practicing small-craft designers than many of the other institutions in the world combined. Our alumni are a who's who of boat design. It's all posted on our website (along with a whole lot more information) for anyone to see at: http://216.119.80.31/who/success.asp

I haven't posted this list direct to boatdesign.net before because the list is quite long and because it's constantly being updated and enlarged. But maybe it's time I put it up . . . so it's below.

A list like this only covers the highlights. It doesn't include the many, many other alumni working as: surveyors, or at production-builders, as marina managers, and as designers in larger design offices. Some of these builders and offices have (and have had) two or three Westlawn alumni working currently, and others have hired nearly a dozen different Westlawn alumni over the years.

General review of the Westlawn website (http://www.westlawn.org/) will provide still more information as will a call to the school.

Dave Gerr
Director
Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology

---------

Success Stories

Westlawn Has a Remarkable Record Supplying
Talented Designers for the Marine Industry

Partial List (last updated 3/11/05)

Designers (Westlawn alumni*)

• Tom Fexas, Independent Designer
• Bruce King, Independent Designer
• Jack Hargrave, Independent Designer, Designer for Hatteras, Burger, others
• Gary Mull, Independent Designer
• Bill Cook, Independent Designer
• Bill Shaw, Independent Designer, Designer for Pearson
• Charlie Morgan, Independent Designer, President Morgan Yachts
• Rod Johnstone, Independent Designer, Founder & Designer J/Boats
• Dave Gerr, Independent Designer
• David P. Martin, Independent Designer, Designer for Ocean Yachts, Egg Harbor, Pacemaker, others
• Rodger Martin, Independent Designer, Chief Designer Derecktor Shipyards
• Britton Chance, Independent Designer
• Ted Brewer, Independent Designer
• Robert Harris, Independent Designer
• Lynn Senour, Independent Designer, Designer for Nordic Tugs, American Tugs, Delta Marine
• Dudley Dix, Independent Designer
• Stephen Pollard, Independent Designer
• David Beach, Independent Designer, Architect for NMMA
• Jay Coyle, Independent Designer, Technical Editor for Yachting Magazine
• Doug Zurn, Independent Designer
• John Cherubini, Independent Designer, Designer Founder Cherubini Yachts
• Bob Loeser, Head Of American Bureau Of Shipping Yacht Division
• Walter Altmann, Architect/Designer for Knight & Carver
• Richard McBride, Independent Designer
• Dave Napier, Designer, Bertram
• Fred Geiger, Designer, Trumpy
• Robert F. MacNeill, Independent Designer, Marine Consultant, Former President Carver Boats
• Walter G. Hahn, Designer, American Custom Yachts
• Gerry Douglas, President and Designer, Catalina Yachts
• Richard C. Lazzara, Designer, Lazzara Yachts, Gulfstar
• David Pugh, Designer, Maxum Yachts
• Livingston Brooks, Designer, Hatteras Yachts
• William C. Frank, Designer, Offshore Yacht Design
• Ken Hankinson, Independent Designer, Designer Glen-L Marine Designs
• Richard S. Brooke, Independent Designer, Surveyor for RINA
• Don Beeck, Designer, Burger Boat Company
• G.M. Bruce Livingston Jr., Director/Plant Manager, Grand Banks Yachts
• John “Chad” Chadwick, Designer, Jack Hargrave and Hargrave Custom Yachts
• Eric Henseval, Independent Designer, Architect for Van Peteghem-Lauriot-Prevost (MVP-VLP), Arradon Team
• Patrick J. Bray, Independent Designer
• Massimo Gregori, Independent Designer
• Luc St. Onge, Designer, Doral
• Bruce Roberts-Goodson, Independent Designer
• George Meese, Independent Designer
• D.A.J. (Dan) Parker, Designer & President, Monaro Marine Ltd.
• George Menezes, Designer, Sabre
• Daniel L. Chamberlain, Designer, Luhrs/Mainship, Engineer SP Systems
• Jack Hornor, Independent Designer & Marine Surveyor
• James Loeschen, Designer, Jack Hargrave and Hargrave Custom Yachts
• J. Henry Martinak, Independent Designer, Designer Café Yachts
• Thurber Whitey, Project Manager, Rybovich Spencer
• Stephen L. Davis, Marine Illustrator
• Peter Eikenberry, USCG Officer, Boating Safety
• Lysle Gray, USCG Civilian Supervisor Of Boating Safety, Former President American Boat & Yacht Council
• Nicholas DiMatteo, Designer, Tom Fexas Yacht Design
• John Kingdon, Designer, American Bureau Of Shipping
• Bob Basnight, Marine Artist, Designer, Newport News Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co., Norfolk Naval Shipyard
• Norman Nudelman, Independent Designer, Former President Westlawn
• Andrew Eaton, Designer, Bakewell-White Yacht Design
• James "Kimo" Worthington, Director Of Sailing Operations America3 Team
• David Fox, Designer, US Navy Combatant Craft
• John Swarbrick, Designer “Taskforce” Australian America’s Cup defense: “Kookaburra I, II & III”
• William A. Schumacher, Independent Designer
• Rodney Cull , 2nd Engineer, 375-ft Lurssen Motoryacht "Pelorus"
• James Backus, Independent Designer, Designer For Pearson, Robert Perry, Former President Westlawn
• Ivan Erdevicki, Independent Designer
• William Lynd, Designer, Sparkman & Stephens, American Bureau of Shipping
• Edwin E. Echols, Jr. , Chief Designer, Alan C. McClure Associates, Inc.
• Glyn Hutchinson, Captain 150-ft Palmer Johnson Motoryacht "Amorazur II"
• Don Blackman, Designer, Blackman Boats
• Kevin Dibley, Independent Designer
• Brad Wood, Designer, Craig Loomes Design Group Limited
• Dave Robertson, Independent Designer, President Gig Harbor Boatworks
• Harold Conway, Managing Member, C&S Boatworks LLC
• Wolfgang Schneider, Independent Designer, Designer Marine Concepts, Invader Boats, Silverline
• Bill Lind, Designer, Sparkman & Stephens
• Jerry Swartz, Designer, Island Packet Boats
• Rolf ven der Sleen, Designer, Grampian
• Mike Waller, Independent Designer
• Arch McTainsh, Designer, Nautic Marine

*Many Westlawn students have gone on to successful careers in the marine industry even without completing the entire Westlawn program.

Designers, Organizations & Professional Associations
(in addition to the above who have employed Westlawn alumni & students)

• Sparkman & Stephens
• Farr Yacht Design Ltd.
• Robert Perry
• C.W. "Chuck" Paine
• Pedrick Yacht Design, Inc.
• Tripp Design, Naval Architecture
• Riechel Pugh
• Glade Johnson Design, Inc.
• Paola D. Smith
• Jack W. Sarin Naval Architects
• Alan Andrews Yacht Design
• Alan C. McClure Associates, Inc.
• John W. Gilbert Associates, Inc.
• M. Rosenblatt & Son, Inc.
• MacLear & Harris, Inc.
• Kelsall Catamarans
• A. E. “Bill” Luders, Jr.
• Laurie Davidson
• Paul Bieker
• Francis & Francis
• Nigel Gee & Associates/BMT Group
• Studio Scanu
• Benford Design Group
• Glen-L Marine Designs
• Van Peteghem-Lauriot-Prevost (MVP-VLP)
• Craig Loomes Design Group Limited
• Arradon Team
• Glade Johnson
• Seltzer Design
• Bakewell-White Yacht Design
• Marine Concepts
• Sharp Design
• Michael Porter
• International Marine Enterprise
• North Sails
• Z Sails
• Southern Spars
• United States Coast Guard
• United States Navy
• Naval Sea Systems Command
• Boeing
• Jamestown-Yorktown Foundation
• SP Systems
• Berti and Lewis Replicas
• Union River Boat Company
• Aerospace at Sea-Level LTD
• American Bureau of Shipping
• American Boat & Yacht Council
• National Marine Manufacturers Association
• Panama Canal Commission
• RINA (Registro Italiano Navale)
• Boating Magazine
• Sail Magazine
• Yachting Magazine
• Offshore Magazine
• America’s Cup – 12M “Weatherly” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “Defender” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “Courageous” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “American Eagle” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “Taskforce” Team - “Kookaburra I, II & III,”
• America’s Cup – 12M “Nippon Challenge” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “Challenge France” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “Stars & Stripes” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “USA” Team
• America’s Cup – 12M “America3” Team
• America’s Cup – “Young America” Team
• America’s Cup – “Team New Zealand”
• America’s Cup – “Team Alinghi”
• America’s Cup – “BMW Oracle Racing Team”

Boat Builders (who have employed Westlawn alumni and students)

• Admiral Marine Works
• Advanced Fiberglass Industries
• Allied Boat Company
• Amels
• American Custom Yachts
• American Tugs
• Avondale Shipyards
• Bayliner
• Bertram
• Blackman Boats
• Bluewater Yacht Builders Ltd
• BMC Design Ltd
• Bradford Marine Group, Inc.
• Bradley Boat
• Britton Boat and Canoe
• Broward
• Burger Boat Co.
• C&C Yachts
• C&S Boatworks, LLC
• Cabotcraft
• Cabo Yachts
• Café Yachts
• Cape Dory Yachts
• Cape Yachts
• Carver Boats
• Catalina Yachts
• Chantiers Navales de Biot
• Cheoy Lee Shipyard
• Cherubini Yachts
• Chris Craft
• Christensen Shipyards
• Cobalt Boats
• Columbia Yacht Corporation
• Conrad Industries
• Delta Marine
• Derecktor Shipyards
• DESCO Marine
• Dickson Marine
• Doral
• Douglas Marine Craft
• Driscoll Boat Works
• Dyna Craft
• Eagle Yachts
• Egg Harbor
• Elan
• Ericson Yachts
• Ferretti
• Fibercraft, Inc.
• F.lli Marchi Boatyard
• Fjord
• Fountain
• Four Winns
• General Dynamics/Electric Boat
• Godfrey Marine
• Gowen Marine
• Grampian
• Grand Banks
• Gulf Craft
• Gulfstar
• Halmatic
• Hans Christian Yachts
• Hargrave Custom Yachts
• Hatteras Yachts
• Henderson Yachts
• Hi Star
• Hinckley Yachts
• Hodgdon Yachts
• Huckins Yacht Corporation
• Hunter
• Hustler
• Intermarine Savannah
• Invader Boats
• Island Packet Yachts
• Islander Yachts
• J/Boats
• Jefferson Yachts
• Jersey Yachts
• Jongert
• JS Yachts
• Kanter Yachts
• Knight & Carver
• L’arte S.t.l.
• Lantana Boatyard
• Lazzara Yachts
• Luhrs/Mainship
• Mapso
• Marchi
• Mares
• Mariah Boats
• Marine Concepts
• Maxum Yachts
• Mickelson Yachts
• Mikazaki International
• Mochi Craft
• Monaro Marine Ltd.
• NASSCO (National Steel and Shipbuilding Co – General Dynamics)
• Nautaline
• Nautic Marine
• Navar Inc.
• Network Marine
• Newport News Shipbuilding & Dry Dock Co.
• Nimble Boats
• Northwind Marine
• Nordhaven
• Nordic Tugs
• Norfolk Naval Shipyard
• North American Fiberglass Molding
• Ocean Sky Boatworks
• Ocean Yachts
• OMC
• P.A.E. Boatbuilders
• Pacemaker
• Pacific Seacraft
• Palmer Johnson
• Pan Oceanic Marine
• Pearson Yachts
• Prairie Boat Works, Inc.
• Pursuit Fishing Boats
• Ranger Yachts
• Riostar
• Robertson and Caine
• Royal Denship
• Rybovich Spencer
• S2 Yachts
• Sabre Yachts
• Santa Cruz Yachts
• Santana Yachts
• Seacraft Shipyard Corporation
• Seafarer Yachts
• Seaforth Marine Group
• Seaswirl
• Service Marine
• Shipbuilders Ltd.
• Silverline Boats
• Skipper
• Solcio
• Southern Spars
• Spectrum
• Sunwand Yachts
• Swiftships
• Tan Boat Ltd
• Tartan
• Tayana Yachts
• Tiara Yachts
• Todd Shipyards
• Tomco Marine Group, Inc.
• Tornado
• Trumpy
• Viking Yachts
• W.D. Schock Corp.
• Wellcraft
• Westerly Marine, Inc.
• Westport Shipyards
• Whitby Boatworks

[asathor]

I appreciate that you have contributed to the leaning of many fine designers Mr. Gerr.

However as an educator you are surely aware that our contribution as educators (yours included) is much like that of the boat builder - we can make a good boat design better but we can't make a bad design good.

This thread started with a fathers question about the suitability of your school for his son.

Please take a moment to answer the fathers original questions. For good measure I have added some of my own:


Are you able to provide the individualized counseling, coaching and attention that a somewhat "immature" student require.
Do your instructors have the time to spend with students when they get frustrated or lack motivation because that "can't see the end".
Do you offer support and coaching when the preparation the had does not measure up to what is required for your cousework.
One thing is to provide the "best and the brightest" with the tools they need to do what they are going to do anyway, another is to have the capability of turning a diamond-in-rough in to a valuable beautiful stone.

I am not belittleling your expertice, just redirecting this back to the original topic.

[dgerr]

asathor:

To answer these questions, I refer you and everyone to the Westlawn website (http://www.westlawn.org/), which extensively details the operation and curriculum of the school. There is a vast amount information available easily and immediately about all aspects of Westlawn: history, operation, faculty, current news, accreditation, continuing-education courses, and more. This information is far more extensive and better organized than any answer I could post here.

It should be evident--with Westlawn’s extensive track record of highly successful alumni--that Westlawn provides the extensive interactive support and assistance needed by our students. Again, more on the Westlawn website.

Selecting any school is a deeply personal decision. My strong suggestion is that those considering Westlawn study the Westlawn website and then call the school if they have further questions.

Dave Gerr
Director
Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology

[Willallison]

Asathor - ask a car sales person if his car are best and of course he will say yes. Ask someone who's bought one of his cars and you will more likely get a completely honest answer.
So, once again, as a current Westlawn student, let me give you the benefit of my experiences with the school:

1. All correspondence is direct with your instructor. Most questions are answered within 48 hours - usually much less. The responses are always encouraging, to the point and useful. I generally correspond by email, however I know other students who both phone and fax.

2. About midway through the course, I was contacted by my instructor to see why he hadn't received anything from me for a while. I had - as you suggested - lost my enthusiasm for the course at the time. Through a few short messages, he had me back on track. I'm now only two lessons short of finishing the course.

3. Not exactly sure what you're asking here, but certainly if there's been something I've not understood, my instructors have spent the time necessary to help me understand things before I moved on.

Lastly, I think I had already answered JC's original question about the text books.
I'm sounding a bit like a car salesman myself here :eek: If you didn't know me better, you'd think I was on some kind of commission! Take a look back thru my posts over the years you'll see I'm not..... and whilst it's not for me to promote or stand up for the Westlawn, I've been happy with the service they've provided me with, so I'm only too happy to do so.

[JCFARER]

Mr. Gerr..

Thank you for the list... it is most impressive. I now have a bigger picture of the Westlawn success...what is the number of students that enrolled and did not complete or succeed in being hired or becoming independent designers in comparison to the list that you have presented here? This obviously has no bearing on the school because every person is an island in themselves but it will give me a bigger picture of the percentages in success as your list equals 100 percent success and I don't believe that is representative of any school. Out of the list that you have presented, how many had degrees when they enrolled and how many may have already been employed in the field when they enrolled? What was the percentage difeerence of students that were placed with degrees compared to the students without degrees.

As far as placing the most students than any other school better be an automatic since the school has been in business the longest, but how many students do you enroll yearly and how many complete and get placed? How many do not complete and get placed?

I also am from NYC...Coney Island, 2 blocks from the sand. It wasn't until I decided to check things out for my son that I heard about Mr. Dave Gerr or any other Nautical Architect or Nautical Engineer in NYC and I have been here since the day I was pushed out and screamed WHAAAAAAA. Is a matter of fact, I think I was born on the same boat I was conceived. How many Nautical Architects currently exist in NYC? How did you manage to pull it off? I only ask because it could prove useful to know whether my son may have to relocate from this city that you have cornered in order to make a living, or if perhaps he will be placed in your company because of proximity. Would you hire the degreed individual first if all else was equal or would you only consider proximity?

Thank you for all your time and trouble and welcome any and all questions that will assist you in assisting me in my inquiry.

Jay

[dgerr]

Jay:

For completion rates refer to the post at:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2783&page=2&pp=15

There's a great deal to discuss about what might suit your son best. Call me at the number on our website (http://www.westlawn.org/). I'll be happy to discuss things with you.

Dave Gerr
Director
Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology

[JCFARER]

Hello everyone...

Thank you Mr. Gerr, the more I find out the more I am becoming confident that all schools seem to be very good and it may be an excellent idea for my son to consider any school including Westlawn.

He has decided to look around some more and then decide what he will do...said he isn't in a hurry. Hmmm.

Anyway I oferred to buy him some tools, since I don't really want to part with my own. I offered to give him my curves but he said that he wants the copenhagen ships curves. I told him that I would get him the set and now he said he wants me to make them for him. Geez.

Anybody know where I can get patterns for them or what type of material I can use to make them? He said he saw a picture of them on the McNaughton site but it sounds like they will be difficult to create that way if they are not in actual size. If anyone can be of assistance it would be appreciated. Compensation for time and expenses can be discussed.

Jay

[Willallison]

Jay - a little shopping around is important here. I bought a set of 11 curves (all that your son should require) for under $50. I've also seen sets retailing for over $1000!! I bought mine from a guy here in Australia - so you'd probably want to find someone more local.
Not something that you could easily make yourself - unless you have the patterns, the it would be easy....

try here:

http://www.draftingsupplies.us/ships_curves.htm

or here:

http://www.suppliesnet.com/Curves/ship_curve_set.htm

[dgerr]

A good source of ships curves and all other general drafting and drawing supplies is:

https://www.charrette.com.

They offer a very inexpensive group of ships curves suitable for student work. Current price is $15.39.

Log on to Charrette. Go to "Drawing Measuring & Model Supplies," then to "French & Ships Curves," then to "Ship Curves Set."

Westlawn students get discounts on drafting instruments ordered through Westlawn as well as guidance on the instruments and supplies needed.

Dave Gerr
Director
Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology

[yipster]

thats a nice set of 4 curbs for $ 15. with a bigger set of curbs selecting can be frustrating not finding the one you want.
before curving the pc i used a flexible curve (same site above french ship curves) ok, not as handy to work with but for only $ 6 you do draw all curves, good to have one extra.

[JCFARER]

Thank's everyone...

I feel the same way about the # of curves...I only have 9 curves and I havent found a single junction that I couldn't fair out with a little ingenuity. I think I had 15 at one time and they just took up space after I spent more time trying to "fit" the spline to the line. I think he wants me to make them for him because the ones that my father made and gave to me have both sides raised and set back a little creating an offset from the table. This insignificant although somewhat noticeable height allows inking of the plans without having the ink smear under your curve...not even sure if inking out your vellum is even practiced anymore but I would think that those plastic curves can be easily cleaned if needed. Can they be cleaned easily?

Thank's for the info...I'll look around.

My son has me doing so much research to figure out the value of education and tuition that I'm starting to consider enrolling myself just to learn something else. Oh my GOD!! :eek: LOL

[chandler]

JC
Maybe buy the curves, use them as templates, make something very special for your son, then sell them on ebay at a profit!
I think a full set would be great to own but just confusing to use. Splines and weights are the way to go with a few curves, some long and relatively straight and a few tight ones.

[JCFARER]

Hello Chandler...

Well...I guess that I can buy some curves, trace them and make the curves or... I could just buy the patterns...choose the ones that may best fit the purpose and then make them. I'm not going to sell the curves I buy...I would probably just give them away to a youngen starting out.

I'm thinking of making the curves in wood...maybe a quarter sawn greenheart in the brown/purple range with lots of heartwood grain. I know the wood is heavy but they'll be on the board most of the time, they'll feel good and stiff in the hand, there is no way they will warp and the edges will be superior. With a nice finish...there is no way ink will get in them. Probably use up a couple of router bits to get them done though...that's a tough one on the tools.

In any event..it will be resistant to the marine borers that he may unknowingly draft below the waterline. TEE HEE. <~~~ Joke. :D

Okay...comments, questions, suggestions?

Jay

[CDBarry]

If you are in NYC, you and your son could go by Sparkman and Stevens office for information on the yacht design profession, since they are probably the most prestigious firm in the US. Webb Institute is also in Glen Cove, so it's an easy ride too. (As is Kings Point and SUNY Maritime).

[JCFARER]

Ahoy there CD...

I know the SUNY site well...called and checked out some stuff. I managed to get my son to get into methodology so he is looking at all options. The fever rush seems to be dying out.

Anyway...we were discussing some tools and he thinks a planimeter is better than an integrator. I don't think so. He keeps eyeballing my stuff so I'm designing an impenetrable steel cage (so he can't get in) and inescapable (so he can't get out if he gets in) I always had an integrator...and it did more than a planimeter...is a matter of fact, I think that it is more related to NA&ME than a planimeter because it solves for area, size of mean heights of diagrams, mean square heights, center of gravity, volume of solids of revolution, moment of inertia and centrifugal moment of areas, centroids, moments, etc., simultaneously I might add. Granted, you don't take it anywhere without a handtruck...but who takes those out anyway? Just putting it out there for some thoughts.

Jay

[CDBarry]

There is also the CGA in New London.

[westlawn5554X]

He... I must admit that Westlawn sure is patient with International student and answer FAST!!!, I dont like a55 kissing procedure, but I have test the people and they reply with good nature, very professional.

It is ok for American with so many schools to choose from for University but International student find Long distance offer great flexiblity and opportunity to learn lastest cutting age technique that our origin country might lack.

The teacher and student relationship is like friends in a same field. I do feel at home, because everywhere I buy stuff I use westlawn student title to get discount and have a lot to buy:)

Even Charrette repond better and quicker by knowing me as a student in Westlawn, I think they gave me disc on delivery. Thanks

Student

[Scottg]

JC, here is a thought from a current student at Westlawn. I wasn't 100% sure if I wanted to pursue boat design as a career possibility. For about four years now Ive thought of the idea of designing and building boats for production. Maybe a semi-custom boat builder. Who knows, time will tell. I was given alot of negative feedback on how its not really a high income business to pursue, risky, etc. My father is hard-nosed about getting a degree. A degree from a traditional university. My sister just graduated from FSU. Any degree really. I went University of Miami and to make a long story short never completed my degree.

Started working for dad and thats when I stumbled across the Art Institute of Ft.Lauderdale. I was actually helping a employee find classes in game design. They had a program for yacht design...BINGO! (I thought). Took the tour of the school and still my gut wasnt agreeing with me. It was a new program at the school and to my recent knowledge isnt really that great for yacht design- its mostly how to draw a yacht, etc.

Well, my search continued for a school for design and building. Whats really frustrating is that Ft.Lauderdale is considered the yacht capital of the world and they dont have classes for this stuff!! Unreal. Then I found Westlawn. I did my research and even talked to Dave Gerr over the phone. I initally signed up for the full course. After starting the course I still felt it in my gut that this wasnt the right avenue for my future. I then returned the course material.

About a few months later I discovered that they have a Yacht Design Lite course. It covers some of the main topics in deisgn. More of a overview of yacht design. If you complete the program you can transfer those classes into the full program. My suggestion is if anything, have your son take the "taste test". Enroll him in the Lite course and let him get his feet wet. If he enjoys it then transfer to the full course. I trying to complete the Lite course by December, then go to college to finish my degree and then complete the Westlawn course completely and then hopefully to building my own boats.

Never to old to go back to college. But I understand from your view 100%. My father is the same way. University of Michigan doesnt sound like a bad a idea either.