Political blurbs and agendas [Archive]

trouty

11-27-2005, 10:41 AM

I think that political agendas and ***opinions*** should be kept out of the forum.

If were gonna keep opinions outta the posts - the boards will be bereft of comment in no time.

Doesn't Opinion - include all opinions about boats boat building materials and boat designs?

Better not have an opinion on anything?:rolleyes:

Polls of this kind always remind me of "the ol police - fit up question!".

So when did you quit beating your wife?

By answering at all - you immediately allow yourself to start defending something, you may never have done ever - so why go on the defensive?

By answering - you allow yourself to be tried for something you may never have done - that someone else has deliberately pushed you into a position of defending?

When did you STOP being a pedophile?

I don't like polls like this, it isn't worded properly - it may mean something entirely different from how it's been interpreted...by those replying to the poll.

Ergo...

Poll: Which statement do you agree with:-

A) It's acceptable to beat your wife?
B) It's not acceptable to beat your wife (unless she cheats on you)?.

Wheres option C?

Option C (which is usually deliberately missing at the intention of the oriiiiiiginal pollster) should say something like:-

C) It's never acceptable to beat your wife under any circumstance!

But polls such as we have here don't allow for such opinions outside the perameters of the original poll question - which is questionably worded to start with.

Risky bidness web forum polls...don't like em one bit.

Besides - you should never beat your wife.....it's much more fun to beat someone elses!! :D ;)

Cheers!

gonzo

11-27-2005, 11:14 AM

I didn't deliberately leave out any option. It was my intention to find out what the opinion of the forum members was. I think that if horse racing people were to start using this forum to post race results and horse lineages, they should be deleted too. However, political agendas bring a lot of disention; more than any other subject. Obviously, even though I put limited options, you were able to voice your opinion. Tongue in cheek comments are OK, but propaganda is not. I think you posting is facetious, because "opinions" refer to "political. Read your 3rd grade grammar book.

kach22i

11-27-2005, 01:54 PM

If I recall correctly - back when this thread was started many moons ago, the political comments leaked into the main forum.

Boat guys don't like leaks.

What was happening as a tit for tat fight in between posts (between a couple of opposing view points) in the middle of a boat topic - this was disruptive for many.

The few threads that were started on a political topic did seem to spill over into the other forums and individuals were branded trolls because of previous comments and prior comments and not because of any actual bad behavior at the time.

More trouble than it was worth was the consensus.

trouty

11-28-2005, 12:04 AM

Tongue in cheek comments are OK, but propaganda is not

One mans Terrorist / Geurilla (sp?) is another mans freedom fighter!

Thats the trubble with political comment - depending whos side your on and the timing of when it's written, it might be later construed as something totally different from what was originally intended.

The victors get to write history.

<moderator's note: controversial text removed>

h_zwakenberg

11-28-2005, 05:16 AM

I read somewhere that politicians and diapers need to be changed - for the same reason... :)

bye
Hans

Jeff

11-28-2005, 09:18 AM

Thats the trubble with political comment - depending whos side your on and the timing of when it's written, it might be later construed as something totally different from what was originally intended.
...
Only History can judge that - makes the moderators role - pretty hard no?
I like to moderate the forum as lightly as possible; however, I agree with the majority (24:3 as I write this) that serious political debate quickly starts to overshadow the focus of the site: boats. There are lots and lots of forums, on the Internet and off, for discussion of politics -- we're surrounded by almost continuous political debate now -- but there are only a few forums for great discussion of boat design and construction. With innumerable better outlets for political discussion, I don't see keeping these forums on-topic as censorship; rather, if left unchecked, I fear heated political discussion spilling into every forum would quickly act to stifle on-topic discussions.

JPC

11-28-2005, 10:52 PM

I certainly don't think there's a significant 'thin skin' problem that needs protection, and the banter is definitely part of making a good community. I'd also think that self-policing is better than a structural ban, particularly given that it's a pretty regular circle of steady participants.

The problem from my perspective is thread responses that don't contain any on-topic content. That is, reasonable jabs/etc. are just fine, and fun, if they are an addition to an on-topic comment. But when a comment is 100% off-topic it just doesn't belong, no matter how clever. We all want to add our card to the game when the exchanges get going, but I think the value of the forum requires the self-discipline to only do so if it's been "earned" -for the given post- by a contribution to the actual topic.

This is particularly acute for those who regularly check in via the "unread posts".

In some cases, I wonder why the private message system is not used for some exchanges - it gets to be like someone barking away on their mobile phone in a restaurant.

I don't mean this to sound like a complaint (none of us is forced to read): I've been exasperated a number of times, but the good aspects of the forum have far outshined that; this topic, however, invites the comment.

Best regards,
JPC

trouty

11-28-2005, 11:52 PM

Boat Design Forums > Open Discussion > Open Discussion

Says it all really!

Cheers!

JPC

11-29-2005, 01:24 AM

True enough, Trouty. I was more thinking 'thread topic' when I wrote the above.

JPC

trouty

11-29-2005, 04:38 AM

:D I just find it very 'ironic', that you can't 'openly discuss', any item of a supposed 'political' nature - in a poll thread about whether political opinions should be allowed or not, on a forum supposedly named "open discussion" which is anything but open due to it's moderation policy?

I realize - no one likes to think about dead women and kids in todays world - especially where, the particular nation hosting the website we're posting on has such a dubious record with regard to "collateral damage" - and when potentially so many of the readers might ostensibly either be service folk currently involved or the parents for example of service folk currently involved, in actions overseas that we'd sooner not have to think / talk about or discuss.

Sadly - it was the same in the Early Vietnam days.

Sadly we are doomed to repeat our mistakes, as long as we can't face up to them, and admit them.

So I guess - more decent kids will have to go to war again sometime to kill more innocent women and kids, all because we don't dare discuss it - due to "political correctness / suppiort for the troops" etc etc...

Sad statement really - about the state of our world and the future for collectively - everyones kids in that world - including those who will in the future have to serve.

Even sadder because we haven't the stomach to discuss it, which could probably help prevent the same mistakes in the future.

Irony is an ironic thing!;) "Support for the troops" - could eventually get the troops themselves (not to mention their kids) killed....and for what? Gas at 5 bucks a gallon?

Methinks thats too high a price to pay - in human terms.

Mooderate me at will - I've been baned from websites in the US before today for being a pacifist, I actually take it as a compliment, because unless I'd hit a raw nerve, I wouldn't have been mooderated!

Shalom!:)

Bergalia

11-29-2005, 06:20 AM

A good many points validly made in the above note from Trouty. However little blame should be laid at the American nation as an whole. Without exception, Trouty, the 'Yanks' I've met (and through my navy service I met many, many hundred) were genuine, concerned, down to earth, and logical thinking humane people. Blame for much of the present day woes lays not at their collective doors, but with their administration - as with ours (Australian); the UK's, Israel's, Palestine's etc etc etc ad infinitum...
You must never confuse political dogma with reality; what our 'leaders' claim, and with what we the 'led' believe.
And without meaning to patronise my American 'cousins' (whom I delight in teasing) it must be understood that the severest form of censureship is applied via their major media outlet - Skye TV (and I'm ashamed that it is the bastard child of a renegade Australian). Skye viewers, and if Murdoch's word is for once to be believed, occupy ninety percent of American homes.
Which means candidly that ninety percent of the American nation have no true picture of what is happening in the world beyond their shores, accepting only the distorted ramblings of the US adminstration's pet mongrel Skye, which barks to White House orders, as the truth.
"Why do they hate us ?" was the classic question posed by one interviewee following the Twin Towers butchery...Skye has yet to tell her.
Decades of banditry, interference and treachery by US government condoned covert operations. That's the answer. But who's going to tell her when rich financial rewards depend on corporate silence.
That this forum is no place for political comment, is I believe, ill considered. Every forum - by it's very nature as a forum - should offer space for its members to raise genuine concerns, and for other members to respond to those concerns as they see fit.
The suggestion that 'there are adequate, and special places' to discuss politics is false. Politics, whether we like it or not, now taint every activity of our existence. Surely it is only right that in our every activity we should retain the right to protest at that interference. Not to do so, is by our silence, seen as condoning that which cannot be condoned
Only by shouting at every opportunity will real people eventually be heard.

trouty

11-29-2005, 09:23 AM

Me thinks you've been drinking the same moonshine as me!;)

Perhaps it's the time we spend upside down that makes the blood rush to our heads!

Being a charter operator - I too have sat in a boat, with a few Americans chewing the fat. Like you, I too find them a generally agreeable bunch.

Had one poor sod do just what you said, only weeks after 9/11.

He'd been in a building looking at the twin towers as they went down - saw the folks jumping from the roof - the whole 9 yards as they say!

Asked - why do the terrorists hate us!

Then took offence when I tried to hint to him in a polite sorta way - so I shut up out of respect for his feelings (he was down here on a holiday to try n get over the stress afterall!).

Thing is...that "rah rah" (support for the troops, all rally around the flag) is a very patriotic thing for the Americans.

We on the other hand - are just a penal colony of Mother England, we rebelled against the flag (remember the Eureka stockade?) - we don't as a general rule - tend to be quite so "loyal" - we do still tend to think for ourselves, analyse - question authority etc...

Gets me into more strife than you can poke a stick at on US web boards - fishing or boating.

But - whats the point of a world wide web, if it's Americo-centric, by virtue of the fact - the majority of the web sites are US hosted / moderated and as such only "rah rah / support the troops / flag" rhetoric can see the light of day?

Propaganda - is the right term for such content.

Free speech on the other hand is an entirely different thing.

I've had a lot of Americans, who I like and respect, tell me - that they would die to defend my right to free speech, not 5 mins later they are moderating what I've said - or banning me - because members (usually whose advertising supports their site) have emailed to say they don't like what I've said / posted.

Truth and free speech matter not one iota apparently - in the land of the free and the brave so it would seem.

Rhetorics fine, it's folks actions show how their society really operates and what it's core values are.

Thats how I see it anyway!

Cheers!

marshmat

11-29-2005, 09:35 AM

I'm all in favour of keeping our politics out of our boating forum. One of the things I love about boats is that they keep me too occupied to get into that kind of mess! So here's to self-policing, discipline, thoughtful posting, and reporting the occasional bad apple to Jeff if need be.
So what to do with the TP52 thread.....?

cyclops

11-29-2005, 02:43 PM

Our buddy is not governmental politics in that sense. More like Sadist and Masochistic, between his ideas of boats and a lot of other peoples ideas. :)

Skippy

11-29-2005, 03:15 PM

One thing that pisses me off about political posters is there's always some weasely little trick they use to confuse the discussion and mislead people.

Trick #1: Including evidence that supports one's view but ignoring anything contrary to it.

trouty: Boat Design Forums > Open Discussion > Open Discussion
Says it all really!

trouty: I just find it very 'ironic', that you can't 'openly discuss', any item of a supposed 'political' nature - in a poll thread about whether political opinions should be allowed or not, on a forum supposedly named "open discussion" which is anything but open due to it's moderation policy?

I find it "ironic" that you quote the name of the forum, but fail to mention the topic of the thread itself, which is:

Political BLURBS and AGENDAS

That's not opinions expressed in a political thread in the open forum. It means signatures that inject politics into every thread in every forum the individual posts on. It means serious propaganda stinking up nonpolitical threads on nonpolitical forums.

Trick #2: Over-interpreting a moderate, reasonable statement to make it sound extreme and unreasonable.

gonzo: I think that political agendas and opinions should be kept out of the forum.

trouty: If were gonna keep opinions outta the posts - the boards will be bereft of comment in no time.
Doesn't Opinion - include all opinions about boats boat building materials and boat designs?

Better not have an opinion on anything? :rolleyes:

I don't know how much of an Einstein you have to be to guess this, but I think the word "political" was meant to apply to both agendas and opinions. It's political opinions that should be kept out of nonpolitical forums. Obviously no one is going to say opinions about boat design should be banned from a boat design forum. I find it hard to believe that anyone capable of operating a computer can't at least wonder if maybe that's what the poster meant and ask him to clarify.

Trick #3: Making unfair comparisons with something unrelated but emotional to generate an unthinking knee-jerk reaction.

trouty: Polls of this kind always remind me of "the ol police - fit up question!".
"So when did you quit beating your wife?"
"When did you STOP being a pedophile?"

Inserting an accusation into a question is a slimy trick. A simple yes/no poll does exclude the middle ground, but that's not the same thing. There's no accusation in a yes/no question. It's more of an over-simplification. Notice those trick questions both ask WHEN something happened. The answer they both ignore is precisely the kind of options that are included in the poll: "No, I never beat my wife." or "No, I was never a pedophile." No, we should never allow serious politics in nonpolitical forums.

gonzo: Tongue in cheek comments are OK, but propaganda is not.
trouty: One mans Terrorist / Geurilla (sp?) is another mans freedom fighter!

It's true that what one person considers funny might offend someone else. But I think how the poster him or her self feels about the comment is not the point. I think the important thing is how other people take it, especially anyone directly affected by it. If two or more people razz each other for fun, that's fine as long as they all enjoy the teasing and they all know it's not really serious. But that has nothing to do with guerilla warfare. There's no such thing as people agreeing to being killed just for fun.

Trick #4: Including an accusation in a seemingly innocent statement.

This is very close to the tricks trouty was talking about above.

JPC: I certainly don't think there's a significant 'thin skin' problem that needs protection, and the banter is definitely part of making a good community. I'd also think that self-policing is better than a structural ban, particularly given that it's a pretty regular circle of steady participants.

First of all, I don't think anyone wants an outright ban on even mentioning politics. It's a question of Jeff's judgement in where and how to draw the line.

Second, this is just the kind of spin doctoring I don't like seeing on a nonpolitical forum. It implies that anyone who disagrees with the poster is being overly sensitive. If you say nothing, you're accepting an insult to people who don't want the forum stunk up by politics. But if you call him on it, then you're "thin-skinned" just for responding. A forum without political BS isn't a "problem", it's just a good forum. I also don't like the suggestion that partisan BS is the same thing as a couple/few guys razzing each other without them getting offended. If you're serious about it or other people object to it, it's politics. If you're not really serious and other people don't mind, then it's fun.

And finally, self policing is a joke. If someone vents their politics on the forum, then by definition they're not self policing. If you mean the group as a whole should self-police, then first, only the moderator has the power to actually delete posts or take other action. All the rest of us can do is complain, which mucks up the thread even more. And second, I don't enjoy cleaning other people's diapers when they can't restrain themselves. I appreciate any moderator who keeps their forum clean so I don't have to be distracted by political garbage.

Trick #5??

[trouty??] <moderator's note: controversial text removed>

Jeff, did you really do that? If so, what or how bad was it?

JPC

11-29-2005, 04:56 PM

Thanks, Skippy; you clarified my error- it's always tough to convey a meaning when the audience isnt' there. You won't get sly implications or 'sneaks' from me; if it looks like there's one, it was my mistake.

-No implication of thin skin; I only meant that a motive for de-politicizing was to stay on boats, not to protect someone's ears.

-By self-policing, I meant at the most 'self' level, -the individual poster- not the forum. My intention was to say that a responsible poster would decide at the keyboard that, as much as he might want to vent or share something, if it's not related to the thread at hand then it doesn't belong and he would refrain. -this as opposed to 'structural' things like Jeff pulling stuff out. I think a free forum is appropriate - but when I open a post on hydrodynamics, I'd like to read about hydrodynamics -at least a little bit.

I certainly wouldn't want to take the colour and character out of posts, nor do I think that people or their ideas should be muzzled. But the valuable contributions that embody this forum get a bit eroded if a significant amount of the material under a given heading has nothing to do with that heading.

Political contributions, etc. - go for it; just name it what it actually is if it's not related to, or included with a contribution to, the boat topic. Most of it that I see is just sharing thoughts with one's community -that is: we like our discussion group, so the conversation roams a bit - I think that's good, but it needs to be judged by each poster as to whether the roaming has eclipsed the topic and should be forked off to a new thread or forum. For pure non-topic stuff, I would think a poster would want to find an audience who was tuned to the 'new' topic.

Crudely, I'm describing a kind of civic-mindedness as opposed to censoring: if the job at hand is to be done, and well, then individuals need to stick to the game at hand.

artemis

11-29-2005, 05:13 PM

"If all Mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of a contrary opinion, Mankind would be no more justified in silencing him than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing Mankind.

"We can never know if the opinion we are trying to stifle is false, and even if it were, stifling it would still be evil!"

Skippy

11-29-2005, 06:11 PM

Thanks JPC. I'm pleasantly shocked to see real communication. :)

boltonprofiles

11-29-2005, 06:19 PM

I am new to the forum and feel like I am not a 'true' boat man here with some members (except for my love of them and the fact I am building my fourth steel kit yacht at the moment with my own two hands and that I have sailed all my life and that I make boat kits every day, davits, boat hoists, ROV high speed cable drums and numerous other products which are all boat related which I thought would have been enough) in the sense that I am not building or designing them to the same extent as you guys, who incidentally I genuinely have the greatest respect for, and so some may say quite rightly that I am not entitled to an opinion in the same way as some of you who have far more right than me especially all the senior members who in my opinion should actually choose what should happen here in this respect in conjuction with the moderators or in fact the moderators themselves. Basically post guidelines to say exactly what you want.

I am no longer sure what is 'correct' or 'incorrect' to post so I will limit my replies to only pure boat related topics in a matter of fact manner when I can if at all with my limited knowledge but it strikes me as getting to know all the great boat community people would entail a lot more than just pure boat talk and any kind of general talking or fun on the forum must upset some people. I am sure a lot of new less knowledgable members like me will not be able to get to know anyone else unless areas of free discussion exist within the forums so that we can eventually become the senior members having the benefit of all the knowledge and experience which has gone before. Perhaps the forum is not for getting to know people, only for posting information (which is fair enough if that is what you want) and as some people must want. I thought this 'open' forum was the area where this type of topic was ok, was free and relaxed and a great area to get to know other members. Is it just politics which is unacceptable?

In business I use my personality, and although all the tees are crossed and the eyes are dotted there is still room for a little non disruptive banter, in moderation of course, perhaps in a similar way to here.

I can understand the reasons why politics can be disruptive and can actually drive a wedge between people so perhaps if it is only politics that you are objecting to it may not be so bad but I am not sure it is only politics and there have been comments about any type of deviation other than information posting. If that is what you all want in a site then it should be limited to only that and members should be told of that from the onset.

On a personal note, I think it is wonderful that Thunderhead for example feels cofortable enough with the forum to feel like he belongs amongst friends to be able to start a thread to say he has quit his job and is having a really bad day and perhaps with some joking or political satire from the members that he actually feels better after reading them but does it have anything to do with boats - yes - it sure bloody does as the community is helping that man feel better, this boating community.

As a new member I am really surprised that anyone would want to limit an open forum, if you object don't go there, and the suggestion for a new member to privately speak to other members outwith the forum if they want to discuss anything other than boats is completely rediculous as we simply wont know anyone to contact in the first place.

I am a new member, yes, but already I have met and talked to friends here who have personalities and this is undesputedly a great site and I want to be a participent here for a very long time, if you will have me.

trouty

11-29-2005, 10:47 PM

:rolleyes: Opinions and debating an issue is tricks now?

Nuff said!

Cheers!

safewalrus

12-01-2005, 02:28 PM

Phew fellas this is heavy - normally I'd just bail and leave you too it but I believe that certain bits are right, certain bits are wrong!
gonzo - if you don't want the politics why start the bloody thing in the first place?
Jeff - I like your light but sensitive touch (that could be misconstrued by a few hairy men from the northern lands!)

My view is that there are times when a few political comments are right on line and need to be said; there were a few mighty pissed off southern gennlemen after 'Katrina' messed up their gardens and who can blame them! It's up to the rest of us to politely ?listen? comment and then remind 'em what we're about! Most of the people that get on these forums are seafaring people to a greater or lesser degree - we listen, talk, sort and get on with it! IF this approach fails and with who we are, it seldom does, then it's up to Jeff to slap the perpatrator's wrist firmly, but not too heavily at first!

But bottom line NO I DON'T Think we should stop a certain amount of political talk - now what about stopping talk about bloody motor boats, old stink pots upset every God fearing sailor going! See what I mean? sorry Bergalia I'll go back to frivollous now:D or I would If I could spell it:cool:

gonzo

12-01-2005, 04:03 PM

The reason I started this thread is that many posters use threads to post unrelated political ideas and agendas. If you think that, for example, a boat building material in inapropiate and say so, it's OK by me. However, if you start ranting about communism, fascism, democracy, monarchy or whatever, then I think it should be deleted. I think political comments are appropiate online and in person, in the appropiate setting. That is, in a political or personal forum. This is about boats and other marine related subjects. There can be political things that are related to it. For example, there were concerns by many about doing business in China. The apparent problem was that their form of government doesn't allow suing for damages like Western governments do. That is, in my opinion, a proper reference to politics. When used to insult or degrade other posters, definitely no.

Bergalia

12-01-2005, 05:30 PM

Walrus, in all sincerity I take my cap off to you. An excellent, and no slight intended (for once) sober, summing up. :cool:

RThompson

12-01-2005, 07:37 PM

So what to do with the TP52 thread.....?

Let it run free.
I read it every now and then, its like the single line comic strip in the newspaper.
A little light entertainment between the real reason's we'r here.

You are right on the button Safewalrus.

safewalrus

12-02-2005, 02:45 AM

Bergalia

12-03-2005, 05:55 AM

Lordy sakes! people are starting to agree with me whoops! :o better get back to my old self :D (but hey thanks for agreeing with me fella's:!: it is I believe the only way to go and keep er? :idea: sane!)

I think there is a subversive political agenda hidden in the above quote... All those 'smilies' make me suspicious...:D

D'ARTOIS

12-03-2005, 06:53 AM

Politicians are my natural enemies and therefore I am guilty of allowing my cynical remarks run free, now and then.
I am very dependent with the marketing of my projects of international politics, and the way politicians behave and each political move may have grave influence on my projects.
So when certain decisions that are biased politically are an issue on this forum, I shall feel free to reveal the true reason for such a decision.
For the remaining, I agree with Gonzo: there is no need for debates, if regular items are discussed, to get political.

For example: the Piracy thread - well is that politically related or not? So IF political issues are to be avoided, then this sort of issues cannot be discussed.

If somebody designs a warship, and put it on the Forum, he might resat assured that political issues are part of the debates.

safewalrus

12-07-2005, 03:08 AM

Hey Bergalia no political thread on the smileys, only just found the button and got excited (simple things!) is all!:rolleyes: :cool: :confused: :mad: :D

Bergalia

12-07-2005, 05:46 AM

Hey Bergalia no political thread on the smileys, only just found the button and got excited (simple things!) is all!:rolleyes: :cool: :confused: :mad: :D

I'll reserve my judgement until I've received the FBI report.... :mad:

trouty

12-07-2005, 06:58 AM

You can reserve your judgement all ya like Bergalia - thing is - with the PC police swarming all over the place - one doesn't dare write or speak it in public.

Whats the world commin too?

Weapons of mass dissapearance is what - and the PC Police hereabouts swallowed it all, hook line and sinker!

Then they get antsy when you point out how thick they are!

Reminds me of the Greenies issue...over the trees all those years ago...and the resultant car bumber sticker...

The only true wilderness left - is between a greenies ears!

I think the PC police hereabouts rate about the same level!

Cheers

P.s - for the thickheads herabouts,PC stands for "politically correct"!

Bergalia

12-07-2005, 07:19 PM

[QUOTE=trouty]You can reserve your judgement all ya like Bergalia - thing is - with the PC police swarming all over the place - one doesn't dare write or speak it in public.

Dammit Trouty - your last note just landed Alexander Downer (Liberal Party's version of Ronald McDonald) on my doorstep accompanied by five hundred members of the ASIO 'snatch squad', Five Collins Submarines moored offshore (unfortunately they sank) and ten Blackhawk helicopters hovering overhead - all wanting to know where these Weapons of Mass Disappearance are... Full body search (and Downer didn't wear gloves) - turned my kilt inside out... Thank God I was wearing my wife's knickers at the time....
Biggest gripe is that they all stayed for tea....:mad: :mad: :mad:

Just be careful what you write in future...Little Brother Johnno is watching...

gonzo

12-07-2005, 07:42 PM

I think you guys are trying to sneak in political comments again. This is exactly what I am complaining about. You get off topic to introduce your political agendas.

artemis

12-07-2005, 09:53 PM

Isn't it about time to close this "poll".

Willallison

12-07-2005, 10:16 PM

Keep em out!
I've been a member of this forum since 2001. There are a few who have been lurking around for longer, but not that many. The reason I joined - and most importantly, the reason I stayed - is that this is a place to talk about BOATS.
Period
Every now and then the lines are blurred, I admit - but only when politics impacts on BOATS
Nobody's trying to restrict your freedom of speach - just suggesting that there are more appropriate places for you to voice your political opinions.....

safewalrus

12-09-2005, 05:16 AM

Willallison me O-L-D mate wot's a boat? do we talk about 'em or use 'em haven't got time for both tooooo many political agendas to look at!:rolleyes:

Willallison

12-11-2005, 05:21 PM

do we talk about 'em or use 'em haven't got time for both ....

Speak for yourself - I just had three maginificent days away on the BOAT. Met up with a number of others doing the same thing - you know....getting away from it all. We even managed to squeeze in the odd political argument!;)

Bergalia

12-11-2005, 05:34 PM

....Nobody's trying to restrict your freedom of speach - just suggesting that there are more appropriate places for you to voice your political opinions.....

Hey Will - which part of Australia do you live in ? Perhaps you don't realise that the 'Sedition Bill' press-ganged through Parliament last week does exactly that. Your freedom of speech, as an Australian - is now restricted. More than restricted - it's been removed entirely. Just try raising your voice against the present administration - or any 'friendly' administration through the normal media channels.
This forum - this excellent forum - is one of the very few areas you can still mutter in discontent. :(

Willallison

12-11-2005, 09:55 PM

I live in Tassie - where we don't brawl on the beaches! But where we love to talk about BOATS.....

Bergalia

12-11-2005, 11:39 PM

I live in Tassie - where we don't brawl on the beaches! But where we love to talk about BOATS.....

Me - I'm on the 'Far South Coast' - well away from the Sydneyites...We not only talk about boats - we also mess about in boats... :D

RThompson

12-12-2005, 12:11 AM

Hey Will - which part of Australia do you live in ? Perhaps you don't realise that the 'Sedition Bill' press-ganged through Parliament last week does exactly that. Your freedom of speech, as an Australian - is now restricted. More than restricted - it's been removed entirely. Just try raising your voice against the present administration - or any 'friendly' administration through the normal media channels.
This forum - this excellent forum - is one of the very few areas you can still mutter in discontent. :(

Viva La Revolution!!!
Of course only if it can be done during half time...

Oh no, its that pesky political opinion thing. Its spreading. OhhhhHHHH!!!

Bergalia

12-12-2005, 05:53 PM

Oh no, its that pesky political opinion thing. Its spreading. OhhhhHHHH!!!

Here's a question young Thompson - How come my patch of the Great South Land is flooded with tourists whose car number plates proclaim: "Victoria - the Place to be..." Question is - if it is - why aren't they :D

Vega

12-12-2005, 07:05 PM

I think that political agendas and opinions should be kept out of the forum. .... I propose that postings with political positions, arguments, added on blurbs, or any other political agenda should be deleted.

It looks to me that you are a bit radical about the issue.

Take a look at some comments, opinions and political views that you have expressed in the thread "New propulsion systems for ships ":

.... To blame multinationals for every ill in the world is plain idiocy and a refusal to take responsibility for your own actions. We choose who to buy from. If alternate fuels are better and/or the market demands it, the multinationals will produce and sell it…….Hitler and Stalin both tried to clean the world with such methods. It created war, which in turn created a healthy economy with an increase of population and energy use. History shows it doesn't work…..We are on a time of radical changes. I think it is comparable to the 19th Century's Industrial Revolution, or the opening of America to European conquest. Not everyone will adapt. Fuel and other sources of energy are also sources of power. However, that is nothing new. It may have been horses in the middle ages, or ships in the 1700's. There may be technologies though, that make possible to create energy economically in small quantities. This will change the world, like the internet did. I mean that the ability to control power sources is spread out more and accessible to a larger group...[/.

It seems to me that there are here a lot of opinions and political content not directly related to that thread. Opposite your opinion I don’t think that it should have been deleted.

I think that Jeff has a better approach to the problem:

I try to moderate with a light touch, in general ignoring things that I don't agree with rather than deleting them, but if something has nothing to do with boats and is offensive to other members, I agree - it has no place here.

I agree with Bergalia when he says:

That this forum is no place for political comment, is I believe, ill considered. Every forum - by it's very nature as a forum - should offer space for its members to raise genuine concerns, and for other members to respond to those concerns as they see fit.
The suggestion that 'there are adequate, and special places' to discuss politics is false. Politics, whether we like it or not, now taint every activity of our existence.

Politics are the way men interact in society and therefore all significant actions made by men have political implications. How can any sector of human life exclude Politics?

Gonzo, nothing personal here, I hope you take no offense, because none is intended. It’s just political talk, just a difference of opinion.;)

gonzo

12-14-2005, 09:38 AM

I think that political opinions or an observation of a political influence on a subject is appropiate. My problem is with people that sneak in politics-blurbs- in threads when it has nothing to do with the discusion. Also, when they use politics to insult and degrade other posters because they are not capable of intelligent discussion.

RThompson

12-14-2005, 04:09 PM

Here's a question young Thompson - How come my patch of the Great South Land is flooded with tourists whose car number plates proclaim: "Victoria - the Place to be..." Question is - if it is - why aren't they :D

Well, first of all, regarding this cosy little threesome of islands: North Island, South Island, and West Island – I come from the North Island.
So don’t be accusing me of knowing what motivates any Australian. However I suspect it may be Victoria’s lack of penal settlements. They must travel to your corner of the island (with its penal settlements) in order to be close to their long past kin, and confirm their Australian-ness. like a pilgrimage.

"...capable of intelligent discussion" am I willing? - yes, but capable... well... that might be pushing it.

Rob

Bergalia

12-14-2005, 05:48 PM

Succinct reply Rob. All is now clear... ;)

gonzo

12-14-2005, 06:21 PM

Bergalia

12-14-2005, 06:59 PM

I suppose that if opinions with a political inclination where germane to the topic and intelligent, it wouldn't really be a problem. This thread seems to be collecting a huge amount of inane political comments. Apparently they go hand in hand: out of place political comments and lack of intellectual content.

Come now Gonzo (an east coast Scots name for spider crab) since when has intelligence and politics been spoken in the same breath ?
Seems to me you're sounding grumpy this morning... Too many Reds under the bed ?????:confused:

Skippy

12-14-2005, 07:35 PM

Just as an example of what I consider out of line: I complained about JonathanCole's joke about the doctor and the horse's ass in the "Aft End Design" thread in the Design forum, and Jeff has removed it. That was just tasteless garbage. It had nothing to do with the thread other than a general association of "transoms". :rolleyes:

safewalrus

12-16-2005, 06:07 PM

One mans meat is another mans etc....

You may not like what the guy has to say but at least let him say it! It's one of the cornerstones of our civilisation (thats everybody on this forum where ever they come from!)

Just remember a LOT of good men have fought and died for that right, in every country in the world (and still are) Please don't let it be in vain - it looks rather like that's the way we're heading, AGAIN!

Bergalia

12-16-2005, 06:14 PM

A bit scarey when you sound sober, Walrus - and your spelling is pristine...But dammit - you force me to agree with you...:rolleyes:

gonzo

12-16-2005, 09:56 PM

Once more, it is not that any political comment should be banned. The problem is that they appear in the middle of threads without any connection. Also, some posters use political comments to insult and degrade others. Why do you find it so difficult to understand the difference? Are any of you honestly saying that political comments completely out of context are in any way constructive to the forum? If you have an opinion you can start a thread.

Vega

12-17-2005, 09:51 AM

....some posters use political comments to insult and degrade others.

I agree with you on that....but who is going to decide the intention of the poster? Only if the intention is clearly offensive, and most of the offensive or disagreeable comments that I have seen addressed in this forum, and they are remarkably few, have not anything to do with politics, just bad education.

Thus, I would say that it is far better to let a guilty man walk free than to put an innocent man behind bars.

What you have initially proposed is far more restrictive than what you are saying now.

The part of your initial suggestion I disagree with is:

I think that political ...opinions should be kept out of the forum. ... I propose that postings with political positions, arguments ...should be deleted.

The funny thing is that you seem to disagree too ;)

safewalrus

12-17-2005, 02:23 PM

this is going nowhere, why not agree to disagree and leave it at that! Anybody want to go on let them, it's there backside that gets smacked for the rest there's the on / off button! for this one I'm using :mad:

gonzo

12-17-2005, 06:49 PM

Vega: you are misquoting me. I said political agendas.

Vega

12-17-2005, 07:07 PM

Vega: you are misquoting me. I said political agendas.

No.... read your first post, you have said:

I think that political agendas and opinions should be kept out of the forum.

gonzo

12-17-2005, 08:01 PM

Exactly, you deleted agendas the first time. It is my opinion that they are bad for the forum. There are many political forums available.

Vega

12-19-2005, 03:23 PM

Exactly, you deleted agendas the first time.

I didn't delete anything, I didn't misquoting you, and I resent to be falsely accused of wrongdoings that I didn’t do.

I have said:

The part of your initial suggestion I disagree with is:

And I have quoted you:

I think that political ... opinions should be kept out of the forum. ... I propose that postings with political positions, arguments... should be deleted.

I didn't delete or add anything.

This sign........means that it is not an integral quotation and that in that place there were words or sentences that had not been quoted.

In this case they were not quoted for the good reason that, as I have stated, I am saying what I disagree from your proposal.

(Political) “agendas" are not quoted because I don’t disagree that they should be kept out of this forum.

"Political...opinions" is quoted because I disagree that they should be kept out of this forum.

Of course you can always say that I have changed the meaning of your sentence, that is:

"I think that political agendas and opinions should be kept out of the forum."

But if political is not an adjective qualifying opinions then you are even making less sense to me, because you are saying that all opinions should be kept out of this forum.

I sincerely hope that you didn’t mean that. But if it is the case I apologize, because I assumed that you were referring to political opinions and not to all opinions.:rolleyes:

gonzo

12-20-2005, 03:36 PM

I think that taking things out of context is misquoting. It changes the original meaning.

artemis

12-20-2005, 07:00 PM

I think that taking things out of context is misquoting. It changes the original meaning.
Please, Jeff, close this thread before I make derogatory comments about gonzo's obvious anal retentiveness and his complete lack of comprehension of the "English" languarge. If I had not forsworn making politcal remarks in this forum, I would say that his responses bear a striking similarity to the lame and contradictory statements of George Bush.

gonzo

12-20-2005, 11:17 PM

You just did. Be honest

artemis

12-20-2005, 11:50 PM

You just did. Be honest
:D :D :D

gonzo

12-21-2005, 01:05 AM

There is a group of people that keep on posting insults with the same political bend. Are you guys capable of discussing the subject. I proposed something to see what other points of view there were. Suggestions that I should not change at all are just stupid. The object of a discussion forum is to learn. Sarcasm and comparisons to politicians you apparently hate only show a narrow mind and a lack of intelligent discourse. My command of English and three other languages is above average. If there are such flagrant mistakes or errors in my use of English, can you point them out?

safewalrus

12-21-2005, 06:16 AM

Some smartasses can make stones fight and should be treated with the contempt they deserve by the rest of mankind, until they dry up and learn!

Skippy

12-21-2005, 04:29 PM

Gonzo, you objected to simple opinions along with the worse behavior of agendas and blurbs. I agree with Vega and maybe some others that you may have gone a little too far there. In fact, I think you accepted that as well. I would say Vega has been petty in playing "gotcha" and rubbing your nose in that minor mis-statement. But his quoting you with the other parts of your statement removed is not a misquote. He did not change your meaning, all he did was emphasize the part that was relevant to his point. The last few posts look to me like they have more to do with ego and scoring "points" than the thread topic.

Willallison

12-21-2005, 06:06 PM

Come on Guys! By my count there have been 26 posts in this thread since anyone made mention of BOATS in any way shape or form - the very reason why I agreed with Gonzo in the 1st place - it's because political views (whether you agree with them or not) have a habit of distracting, redirecting and generally just buggering up otherwise sensible and interesting discussions.
Now, can we please desist from this unending to-and-fro of insults and get back to it....

Skippy

12-21-2005, 06:59 PM

Willallison: Come on Guys! By my count there have been 26 posts in this thread since anyone made mention of BOATS in any way shape or form
Will, this is a thread about politics in an "Open" forum. It doesn't have to be about boats.

... political views (whether you agree with them or not) have a habit of distracting, redirecting and generally just buggering up otherwise sensible and interesting discussions.
Couldn't agree with you more. Politics tends to stink up conversations and needs to be quarantined.

Now, can we please desist from this unending to-and-fro of insults and get back to it....

Will, were you interpreting my post as derogatory? I was trying to be critical but fair. I would point out that it's mostly safewalrus who has been calling people names ("boring b@$#%&s" and "smartasses"), and he's one of the people in favor of allowing politics in the boat forums. Gonzo and Vega have been a little petty recently, but I don't see them insulting each other.

artemis

12-21-2005, 07:41 PM

And my two posts above were meant to express sarcasm - that was the intent of the ":D :D :D " for the second posting. :)

Willallison

12-21-2005, 09:02 PM

:eek: awww don't go all defensive on me - I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone! It's just that none of this has anything to do with why we are all members of this fabulous site...
...now there are 30 non-boating-related posts... including mine!!:(

Skippy

12-21-2005, 11:21 PM

Willallison: awww don't go all defensive on me - I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone!
Then what exactly did you mean by "unending to-and-fro of insults"? You were "pointing the finger" at everyone who has posted to this thread.

Willallison: It's just that none of this has anything to do with why we are all members of this fabulous site...
It has everything to do with defining what this site is NOT about. Specifically, what kinds of political comments are inappropriate or out of line.

Willallison: Come on Guys! By my count there have been 26 posts in this thread since anyone made mention of BOATS in any way shape or form
Skippy: Will, this is a thread about politics in an "Open" forum. It doesn't have to be about boats.
Willallison: ...now there are 30 non-boating-related posts... including mine!!

Speaking of insults Will, do you even read other peope's posts before responding to them? Both of those comments of yours are irrelevant, because this is a POLITICAL thread in an OPEN forum. This thread has enough BS from the political types, I don't think it needs any more from you.

gonzo

12-22-2005, 01:16 AM

safewalrus

12-22-2005, 05:44 AM

Bloody Hell Gonzo, that makes sense, careful you'll have me agreeing with you in a minute!:rolleyes:

I think we've established what Political comments are about and how they should be used and for Willallisons sake we could now go back to boats! I for one am exhausted with all this:mad:

gonzo

12-22-2005, 10:09 AM

OK, I'll take my soap box back into the attic.

SamSam

12-22-2005, 11:25 AM

I think that my original post was not limited enough. Political comments are sometimes relevant. For example, there was a thread about doing business in China. Their system may not allow suing for damages like we are used to. Discussing a political situation, in this case would make sense as long as it was limited.

I sort of think it was too limited. The choices should have included a grey area such as "sometimes". The question could have been better defined about people bringing politics into an established boat thread as opposed to whether people should start a political thread in a boating NG in the first place. Better yet would be to ask whether off topic topics have any redeeming social value in a boating NG. If you feel it's OK to start threads about child pornography in this NG, I can't see how you can object to political threads in this NG. Sure, I agree it's an important problem, so is DUI and continuing human slavery. If you bring up child abuse and pornography, I can easily connect that to religion, then I can connect religion to fear, ignorance, ego and power, and here we are, right back to politics. I can see your point about inane BS cluttering up a thread but it seems easy enough to ignore since there isn't much of it. I can definitely see your point about political and other topics becoming disrespectful and infecting the rest of the NG. Since there is no third choice, I voted no. I believe the people in this group are quite capable of regulating themselves and if a little discussion can't bring the out of line back in line, we have a very reasonable Andy of Mayberry moderator to throw them in the slammer until they shape up. (Unlike the Yahoo Bolger group who apparently have a quivering Barney Fife on the moderation trigger. As Raymond from Hong Kong would say, the guy has a lack of the sense of humous.) Sam

Willallison

12-22-2005, 05:21 PM

Skippy - ok - I'll point a finger - middle digit, pointing upwards!... of course I read all the posts. And if I didn't think this was a worthwhile discussion, I wouldn't have joined in the 1st place.
Perhaps YOU should read things a little more carefully... this thread, which I think Gonzo was very sensible to raise before things get out of hand... was NOT a political thread - it was a thread to discuss the appropriateness of political comment on this forum. That it degenerated into a name-calling exercise is, as I said before, a perfect example of why politics (in the sense that Gonzo intended) should have no place here. :mad:

Safewalrus, Gonzo... thanks!:D ;)

safewalrus

12-22-2005, 06:03 PM

Willallison - you said it! Despite the heavy language and seriousness of the debate, it was I believe something that we all can and should learn from! Gonzo may come from a different angle than most (he's an Engineer with a capital E, that's what Engineers do, make us think!) :rolleyes: I might not agree with ALL he says (passionately at times) :p but I will NOT DENY his right to say it! And I will I hope learn from it! may be not what he wants me to learn, but thats life - ain't that politics? :confused: in it's own form ..... But please can we have a rest from thinking, I'm only a simple sailor and my brain hurts. Remember these forums are mainly for entertainment, other wise we become a bunch of grumpy old men (and the wife rekons I be one of those anyway - the five year old calls me 'whingey-nija'!!):D :D

Skippy

12-22-2005, 08:32 PM

Willallison: Skippy - ok - I'll point a finger - middle digit, pointing upwards!...
First of all Will, thank you for reading my post. :)

Willallison: Perhaps YOU should read things a little more carefully... this thread, which I think Gonzo was very sensible to raise before things get out of hand... was NOT a political thread - it was a thread to discuss the appropriateness of political comment on this forum.

Second, if you insist on quibbling over semantics, then fine, it's a thread about political comments rather than a political thread. But your hair-splitting over terminology doesn't change anything. You complained that posts on this thread have not been about boats, even though that's not the subject of the thread. That was my point, and I hope you can forgive me for not using perfectly exact language. :rolleyes: Do you mind if we discuss "political comments" on this thread rather than boats? Or does that still bother you?

Willallison: And if I didn't think this was a worthwhile discussion, I wouldn't have joined in the 1st place.
Third, I would again dispute the contention that you have "joined the conversation" in any constructive way. Your main point seems to be that we shouldn't be having the conversation in the first place! Your only other point has been to accuse people of insulting each other.

Willallison: Come on Guys! By my count there have been 26 posts in this thread since anyone made mention of BOATS in any way shape or form
Skippy: Will, this is a thread about politics in an "Open" forum. It doesn't have to be about boats.
Willallison: ...now there are 30 non-boating-related posts... including mine!!

Willallison: ... of course I read all the posts.

Willallison: Now, can we please desist from this unending to-and-fro of insults
Skippy: I would point out that it's mostly safewalrus who has been calling people names
Willallison: That it degenerated into a name-calling exercise is, as I said before, ...

Will, do you really, truly believe that you are responding to other people's posts in a way that takes them into account? Because if so, then you're blind to your own closed-mindedness. You complained about non-boat posts, ignored my explanation of why they're not a problem, and complained about them again. Then you accused people of insulting each other, ignored my point that only one individual has been doing that, and accused people again, this time of "name-calling". To repeat yet another point that you have ignored, most of the posters on this thread have not been insulting each other or calling each other names. Or giving them the finger.

To clarify more of my imperfect language, by "reading people's posts" I meant to suggest that if you both read and understand people's comments, then maybe you shouldn't repeat those comments after someone shows that they're unfair or irrelevant. It's not a constructive contribution to the discussion, it's just more BS.

boltonprofiles

12-22-2005, 10:47 PM

For heavens sake, this debate has caused more blooming rows than the politics.
Its Xmas, just leave it and lets all get on, life is too short for all this.......
Can't we just close the thread? We understand and I think mostly agree with what Gonzo was trying to say, although he may have put it slightly better.
Personally I do not agree, as the old saying goes, 'I hate what you say, but I will defend your right to say it', especially in an open forum.
Anyway merry Xmas all and have a great 'Scottish' New Year.

Skippy

12-23-2005, 02:42 AM

boltonprofiles: For heavens sake, this debate has caused more blooming rows than the politics.
Its Xmas, just leave it and lets all get on, life is too short for all this.......

First of all, I'm not sure a discussion about politics is going to be any less contentious than the politics itself. That's just the nature of the beast.
Second, Paul, nobody is forcing you to participate in this thread. The "rows" are not caused by a debate, they're caused by rude individuals who call other people names, give them the finger, or try to have the thread closed. Gonzo and Vega seem to have patched up their little misunderstanding, and the only people I see being rude are the ones who object to either the content of the thread or the thread itself. As far as I'm concerned, those people should take your advice and leave the thread to those of us who are interested in it, instead of being rude or trying to get it closed down.

boltonprofiles: Can't we just close the thread? ... Personally I do not agree, as the old saying goes, 'I hate what you say, but I will defend your right to say it', especially in an open forum.

With all due respect Paul, can you really be so naive as to believe you're defending people's right to free speech just moments after asking for a thread to be shut down??? That's absurd! If you mean people's right to vent their political agendas on the boat forums, nobody has that right unless Jeff says so. Use of this forum is a priveledge, it's not a public square. If you mean you defend people's right to discuss limitations within the forums, then asking to close this thread is just plain hypocritical.

And now that you're explicitly advocating for the thread to be closed, I would like to discuss one more thing:

boltonprofiles:
I am no longer sure what is 'correct' or 'incorrect' to post
Perhaps the forum is not for getting to know people, only for posting information
In business ... there is still room for a little non disruptive banter.
I can understand the reasons why politics can be disruptive and can actually drive a wedge between people so perhaps if it is only politics that you are objecting to it may not be so bad but I am not sure it is only politics and there have been comments about any type of deviation other than information posting.

Paul, I have never seen anyone complain on the boat forums about anything except political BS. If you've seen any objection to simply joking around, I would like know where those comments are if you can find them, because that sounds very strange to me. As far as I know, nobody here expects people to act like little information-exchanging robots or otherwise stop being human beings just because they're talking about boats. :rolleyes:

What worries me is that you seem to be having a lot of trouble seeing a middle ground between either having no rules about politics at all, or everyone behaving like little robots. I believe you're an experienced businessman, aren't you Paul? Is it really that hard to allow people to chat and have a little fun without preaching politics? Just don't use the boat forums for your own personal agenda, and I'm sure everyone will welcome you. I don't see what about that is so hard to understand.

boltonprofiles: Anyway merry Xmas all and have a great 'Scottish' New Year.
Merry Christmas, I hope you have an enjoyable holiday.

safewalrus

12-23-2005, 02:42 PM

Skippy IF you read this properly you'll find I haven't insulted anybody personally ..... yet! Nor have I wrritten in Bold to indicate shouting! Get frustrated a little, yes! But as too shouting my head off NO!

Here we go - UNLIKE YOU, WHO SEEMS TO DELIGHT IN WINDING UP! I take it from the description of where you come from (cornfields) that it's somewhere many miles from water, thus you probably don't know what a boat even looks like (except in your marvel comic books) - so go find a farmers forum to disrupt, or have they already sent you packing? My comments on "stones fighting" seems to cover your good self, So enjoy your cold turkey and goodnight

gonzo

12-23-2005, 03:12 PM

I agree. Hail our benevolent dictator! The thread brought up many good points. If I had the perfect answer to start with, it would've been unnecesary.

boltonprofiles

12-23-2005, 03:55 PM

Skippy, I don't feel like I have to defend myself on my opinion and I am not a hypocrite but I don't do middle ground as you either have a rule on what is acceptable or you don't. I have already said most people agree with Gonzo so that should be enough for us all and I respect the wishes of this majority so I will adhere to the middle ground without any problem whatsoever from now on.
The reason I mentioned the critical issue of shutting down the thread is simply to avoid this very thing, a more volatile situation than the politics are between members. I am surprised to say the least on the verbal attack and the strenght of feeling when I have said all along that I was a supporter of completely open threads on any subject in open forum but enough is enough in my opinion and as I said I will respect the opinion of the majority in this case. I have no desire to fight against the majority further which will only cause more ill feeling, although I have bit my tongue on several occasions like now.
I have no wish to fall out with anyone so I will exercise my right not to participate in this thread from now on and I genuinely hope you do have a good Xmas and a super New Year.
I have followed some of your other threads and I like your spirit and fight for what you believe in but to me there is always a cost in this respect.

Skippy

12-23-2005, 04:12 PM

safewalrus: Skippy IF you read this properly you'll find I haven't insulted anybody personally ..... yet! Nor have I wrritten in Bold to indicate shouting!

sw, you used the terms "boring ^&$*#s" and "smartasses". If you weren't referring to people posting on this thread, then who were you talking about? No, you didn't name names. But all that means is that your name-calling was vague enough that it could apply to anyone who has posted here. All it means is that you didn't have the guts to admit who you were calling names. Who were you calling names, sw? It sounded like it included me, and I don't appreciate that at all.

As for the bold type, ask someone who's familiar with internet etiquette. Bold type does not indicate shouting, all capital letters do. And even the bold type I've only used to set off quotations from what I'm saying in the post.

safewalrus: Here we go - UNLIKE YOU, WHO SEEMS TO DELIGHT IN WINDING UP!
THAT is shouting.

safewalrus: I take it from the description of where you come from (cornfields) that it's somewhere many miles from water, thus you probably don't know what a boat even looks like (except in your marvel comic books) - so go find a farmers forum to disrupt, or have they already sent you packing? My comments on "stones fighting" seems to cover your good self, So enjoy your cold turkey and goodnight

Goodnight sw. I see you're insulting me directly now. What happened to "You may not like what the guy has to say but at least let him say it!"? Am I boring you? Is that what free speech is all about to you sw? Entertainment value? The only thing I'm disrupting is your rude behavior toward other posters, which you're now directing at me. You're the one disrupting an open discussion of the thread topic. Whether or not I "delight" in pointing out other people's bad manners, at least I don't call them names, try to shut down their discussion, or make fun of them based on where they live. It sounds like all your noble platitudes about free speech evaporate once someone disagrees with you or doesn't entertain you enough. Why don't YOU find another forum to disrupt.

Skippy

12-23-2005, 04:21 PM

gonzo: I agree. Hail our benevolent dictator!
Sorry gonzo. I assume you're talking about me. Here in the "cornfields", people have a strong sense of good manners and fair play, and it makes my blood boil when people toss around BS and insults like it's just the "good ol' boys havin' some fun". It's not fun for the people on the recieving end, it's just BS. I'm sorry if I've been a little heavy-handed about it.

Skippy

12-23-2005, 04:50 PM

boltonprofiles: I don't do middle ground as you either have a rule on what is acceptable or you don't.
That's fine Paul. It just seemed like your proposed rules were a little extreme. Teasing and fun are not the same as politics. That's all I meant.

boltonprofiles: I will adhere to the middle ground without any problem whatsoever from now on.
Glad to hear it.

boltonprofiles: The reason I mentioned the critical issue of shutting down the thread is simply to avoid this very thing, a more volatile situation than the politics are between members.
I guess it didn't work. :) I like to think we're all more grown-up than that, but I probably shouldn't dispute the issue, you may well be right.

boltonprofiles: ... to me there is always a cost in this respect.
Good point, that's very true. Unfortunately, some of us benefit less than others from going along with the crowd, and benefit more from speaking our minds because we have more to say. Thanks for the response.

boltonprofiles: I genuinely hope you do have a good Xmas and a super New Year.
Likewise to you.

gonzo

12-23-2005, 09:37 PM

I meant Jeff is a benevolent dictator in the way he manages the forum. He is very lighthanded in how he does it.

Skippy

12-23-2005, 10:40 PM

Really??? You mean I'm off the hook??!!! Yippeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) But now I'm not sure what you were agreeing with. :confused: I guess I can't lay any claim to being "lighthanded". :rolleyes: But yes, Jeff has been very understanding with all of us.

safewalrus

12-24-2005, 07:21 AM

Even me!:o

safewalrus

12-24-2005, 07:22 AM

But don't worry Skippy my fishing rod will be back out in the New Year!:eek: I promise not to miss you :D

Skippy

12-24-2005, 11:08 AM

That's good sw. I wasn't too worried about it. :p Have an enjoyable 2006 sw, I hope you catch lots of big fish you can tell your friends about. Please have an extra pint of grog for me over the holidays, that hasn't been in my diet for a while. :( Take care, and Happy Xmas. :)

safewalrus

12-24-2005, 05:47 PM

No grog in the diet, good heavens Skippy you'll have to have some at this feastive time! Unless of course it's medical, in which case comiserations mate!:o
Whatever have yourself a Happy Christmas and a good New Year;) during which I'm sure we'll have some interesting conversations/ arguments - really look forward to it :D enjoy:D

safewalrus

12-24-2005, 05:48 PM

No grog in the diet, good heavens Skippy you'll have to have some at this feastive time! Unless of course it's medical, in which case comiserations mate!:o
Whatever have yourself a Happy Christmas and a good New Year:cool: during which I'm sure we'll have some interesting conversations/ arguments - really look forward to it :D enjoy:D

trouty

01-24-2006, 12:12 PM

:rolleyes:
moderator's note: controversial text removed
Right back from the start!

As we are being softenbed up in the media for the inevitable push into Iran - probably by March... one wonders f this thread will last long enough to prove my point.

My original point which was removed by Jeff - inimated - that one mans terrorist, may be another mans freedom fighter.

Media manipulation people - it's what the spook agencies do - on behalf of their govts. It's just that after so many years of it...they aren't very good at it any more (if experience has taught you what to look for!).

I just pointed out in my orooiginal post - that not everyones opinion - based on what they 'read in the media' will eventually stand the test of time.

From memory I think I pointed out - in the text Jeff removed - how even my own country - does just the same things as yours - in terms of 'screwing the pooch' as we like to call it downunder.

That is - to usurp the natural resources of another nation thru industrial espionage, call it investment, call it capital backing - call it whatever you want. The facts are - we look around for nations weaker than ourselves so we can get fioscal advantage by taking ownership of their natural resources for our own profit - to keep us in the manner to which we have grown accustomed.

The USA does it to OZ - we in turn do it to East Timor, and so on it goes - on down the line.

I remember when Janana Gusmayo was a Terrorist, because we were in cahoots with the indo's during Keatings reign, when our future was belived to lie in the Asian Tiger economies. Thats why Keating passed compulsory superanuationn contributions as part of any wage rises...then invested all our retirement / superannuation funds in Imelda Marcos' shoe collection!:rolleyes:

Yes Ol Janana, he was a bad guy - because we didn't know about the timor sea oil and gas fields...so the balibo 5 were expendable and our respective govts turned a blind eye as Head hit man for the Indo's Wiranta murdered 2 Aussies Two Poms and an American journalist! :rolleyes:

Then we found out about "peak oil" (Google Search it.. I dare you!).

Then Janana was a Fretlin "freedom fighter" or somesuch...

Then leader of the resistance

Then - the Dili Massacre occurred!

Then Aussie troops took east timor and Made ol Janan Gusmayo into El presidente - just like Kahzi is head of Afghanistan and the other See Eye Ehh man is head of Iraq.

All Gusmao had to do was sign over Timors rioghts to the Timor Sea Oil N gas!

Thats how the world Oil oligarchy work...

Course Jeff will have no option but to delete this as well - because those boys at the ol see Eye Ehh - don't want everyone knowing what ol trouty knows - doesn't look good when the truth outs! :)

And so - like Korea and then Vietnam before - (you) will end up not having the political will to stay the distance......someone will promise to bring the troops home and you'll elect him and he'll do that and the "terrorists" will have won.

It's just what happened in Afghanistan when the See Eye Ehh was backing the Mujahadine against the Ruskies with arms, cash and intel.

Only now - it's the Ruskies thru the Iranians, backing the insurgents in Iraq with weapons and manpower...to grind down the USA - just as the Mujahadine ground down the Russian invaders...

History repeats you see...

Soo - why will we be in Iran in only a few short months?

Sigh...

OK.

Iran - has started up it's Nuke reactor which Russia just built for them...
Last time they did this - the Israeli's flew a sortie over the middle east in close formation f15's? that had a radar signature which loooked like a passenger jet...

At the last minute they broke formation and bombed the Iranian reactor.

If the Israeli's don't likewise bomb this new reactor, I'll eat my hat.

You see...Even if they don't - the USA well might.

Whats it all about Alfie?

It's not about Nuclear Proliferation that much I can tell you!

If it was Kim Jong Ill wouldn't still be a walkin talkin time bomb!

So - whats it about?

You guessed it...Oil!

Here it is in a nutshell folks.

Weapons of mass dissapearance in Iraq?... Nahhh - Likewise it was about oil - and the state of the US economy! The gold standard is gone and the value of the US currency is pegged to the cost of west texas light (sweet) crude.

Why did we have to democratise Iraq?

Because that madman Saddam was selling OIL to the Eastern Europeands and frogs in Euro's! :eek:

If that was allowed to contnue and world oil contracts got signed in Euro's - what would keep the value of the US$ up?

Answer?.. Yup, Nuthin, Nada, big fat zero - enter another "great depression"! like the one of the 30's.

Sooo - easy - invade Iraq - and problem solvered...everyone gets the message! Hopefully!.

Except That idiot in Iran, Khatami?,....who is selling Iranian oil to the Russians and Eastern Europe - in yep - you guessed it - Euro's! :eek:

OOps - here we go again...look out Iran here we come.

And so - on and on it goes - more poor US kids from the lower socio demgraph go off to die in some sand hole in the middle east to preserve the American way of life...Oil at a buck a gallon! :rolleyes:

To do so - they will committ a LOT more "collateral damage (thats dead wimmin and kids to the uninitiated).

And so them evil islamics will hate us all the more and want to suicide bomb us and blow up our buidings etc etc and destroy our economy and so on and on it goes...

Someone tell me where the offramp is?

It coulda been different, cept for that dreadfull day in Dealey Plaze Texas...when the "peoples president" JFK met his dreadfull end, and the country we know as the home of the free and the brave gave up it's right to be gioverened by the people for the people and gave over power without a struggle, to the oil oligarchy who run this world today!

Guess this won't last long - should I save a copy for later review?

Who knows what the future holds for any of us - but for those who can read the signs..it's not looking good IMHO.

Soo - just what are the Russiands saying about the fact that it LOOKS very much like Iran is about to be on the recieving end of shock and awe...just Like Iraq was?

You decide for yourselves.

http://www.rense.com/general69/tiddosdzdd27makes.htm

Cheers!

kach22i

01-24-2006, 01:01 PM

Trouty, I have two web forums for you. They mix cars and politics, not boats and politics................but close enough.

Small friendly group (Car Nuts):
http://www.carnuts.ws/viewforum.php?f=1

Larger more active Porsche group:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=31

Trouty, I trust this helps your need to express yourself. If it does not, and you want to dance with some very well read people, and no Trolls - I recommend the Charlie Rose forum.

C.R. Forum:
http://boards.charlierose.com/board/

A Cool little blog site (for fun):
http://www.apostropher.com/blog/

trouty

01-24-2006, 01:37 PM

ut the fact is this is a boating forum and politics affects boats and boating whether we like it or not...and our open discussion forum is anything but open as proven by jeffs deletion of my original post...for "objectionable text"..

Who's objection?

Hardy Open discussion if someone can object and then remove a post..is it? - which is after all what this threads about (before it drifted off into a slanging match).

Here - this fella says it bettter than me!

http://www.teamliberty.net/id215.html

or this

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=9995

Just what is "objectionable text"?

Is it anything that doesn't agree with the big 5's media propaganda push to soften us up for the impending war with Iran?

I guess so, if Jeffs moderation of my original post is anything to go by!

That is after all the only 'reasonable' conclusion that can be drawn.....at such behaviour...on a thread debating 'political content' on a open discussion forum..

It doesn't surprise me at all..

I often get "banned" from al manner of websites all over the wordl becase people generally don't want to know "the truth".

Most are happy living with lies.

More power to em - there are many days I too would sooner live with the lie!

Cheers!

trouty

01-24-2006, 01:39 PM

Live with a lie - than face the unpalateable truth!.

Cheers!

kach22i

01-24-2006, 02:14 PM

I often get "banned" from al manner of websites all over the wordl becase people generally don't want to know "the truth".
There has got to be an easier way to earn a living.:D

Try this one - is it political?

The Canoe Race

A German company and an American company decided to have a canoe race. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race. On the big day the Germans won by a mile.

Afterward, the American team became very discouraged and depressed. The American company decided the reason for their crushing defeat had to be found. A Management Team made up of senior executives was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. They discovered that the German had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and one person rowing.

The American Management Team hired a consulting firm to assist in analyzing this data, happily paying their considerable fee. After six months of hard work, the consulting firm concluded that too many people were steering the Americans' boat, while not enough people were rowing. So the American Team
acted:

To prevent losing to the Germans again the following year, the team's management structure was totally reorganized, to include 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the Rowing Team Quality First Program, with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. In an all-out attempt to further provide empowerment and enrichment's to the rower, new paddles and medical benefit incentives were promised in exchange for a victory in the next competition.

The next race the Germans won by two miles. Humiliated, the American Management Team laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles and canceled all capital investments for new equipment.

The money saved was distributed to the senior executives as bonuses for a job well done.

safewalrus

01-24-2006, 02:34 PM

Katch your getting as bad a trouty with unpalatable truths -only more entertaining!:D

Jeff

01-24-2006, 02:43 PM

ut the fact is this is a boating forum and politics affects boats and boating whether we like it or not...and our open discussion forum is anything but open as proven by jeffs deletion of my original post...for "objectionable text".. What I strongly object to is recieving email from members who have contributed 100s of posts about boat design - the primary focus of this site - that they have enjoyed the forum but are now choosing to leave because threads are wandering off-topic or because the political threads have offended them.

I don't like to moderate heavily, but at the same time, my interest and the focus of this site is boat design and boat building. Any time off-topic posts which are not directly relating to boat design or boatbuilding start causing us to lose on-topic contributors, those posts will go.

kach22i

01-24-2006, 02:55 PM

I did find that untimely political "barbs" were being launched in the middle of prefectly good boat threads. Unfortunate that the self restraint was not there. Some had theories that lack of a political section warrented such antics - can't buy that as there has always been a "Open Discussion" section here.

As much as I'd like to start with political jokes or funny pictures of GWB and the like, I have no control over where it would lead - so I must restrain myself.

I hope to see Trouty in the car forums I gave links to, there seems to be good seperation in those forums - can say why, just is, that's all.

safewalrus

01-24-2006, 04:19 PM

I agree thoughly with Jeff on this; whilst it was a 'useful' discussion which did raise some rather heavy arguments it is now time 'to put it to bed'.

I therefore propose that we all, voluntarily take what we've learned from this, keep it to ourselves and move on! I for one fully intend to!

Vega

01-24-2006, 05:12 PM

:rolleyes:

... Janana Gusmayo ...was a Fretlin "freedom fighter" .. leader of the resistance

Then Aussie troops took east timor and Made ol Janan Gusmayo into El presidente ...

Xanana Gusmão was a Fretilin fighter and the leader of the resistance.

Indonesians, after years of international diplomatic lobbying (UN, EU, US) by the Portuguese government, delivered East Timor (an ex-Portuguese Colony) to their rightful owners, their inhabitants. The Indonesian delivered sovereignty to the US nations, represented by Australian and Portuguese forces, that successful organized free election. Xanana Gusmão was elected President.

The Oil deals were between Australians and Indonesians and yes, it was oil the motivation for the Indonesian invasion of the Island...and it was those advantageous oil deals with Indonesia on Timor oil that "prevented" Australia to take in due time a rightful position about the lawless Indonesia occupation of the East part of the Island.

I will not write more about this, but I was appalled by the "particular" description of well known and documented facts given by Trouty.

Willallison

01-24-2006, 07:02 PM

Bloody Hell!... When are you blokes going to get it?
It's not what you say that is the problem - it's simply that this isn't the place to say it!:mad:
You don't fart at the dinner table when you're at your mums house. You don't swear in front of your young kids. You don't pick your nose when your trying to impress a lady....
Don't bugger up an otherwise terrific BOAT design forum by prattling on about politics. It's simple!

trouty

01-25-2006, 12:35 AM

What I strongly object to is recieving email from members who have contributed 100s of posts about boat design - the primary focus of this site - that they have enjoyed the forum but are now choosing to leave because threads are wandering off-topic or because the political threads have offended them.

I don't like to moderate heavily, but at the same time, my interest and the focus of this site is boat design and boat building. Any time off-topic posts which are not directly relating to boat design or boatbuilding start causing us to lose on-topic contributors, those posts will go.

Just how many emails have you had from me Jeff? Complaining about ANYONES posts or threatening to leave?

Exactly, not one!.

If panty wads want to take their bat n ball and go home - well good riddance and don't let the door hit em in the back on the way out! (is how I personally feel - about what you have posted above!).

If you want to pander to the vocal minority - then fine.

You won't find me emailing you about it.... nor in my 'mooderating' (deliberate pun) days would I have ever have deleted someones "work" (typing doesn't come easey to all) because I didn't agree with their point of view - or because someone else whined about it.

I too happen to like talking about boats - but if I have to have one typing hand strapped behind my back, while I give my opinion lest it offend some panty wad minority whinger - then I'd sooner say nowt.

The deletion - has made a mockery of an "open discussion" forum and the poll.

If you don't want "Open discussion" then don't have a forum for it and run polls on it - i.e. keep the place a purely Boat oriented site...and remove ALL political content from every post on every forum as a matter of course, i.e treat EVERYONE the same - don't just react to emails from panty wads minority whiners and penalise those who don't complain, but contribute equally!

My point - in answering the poll - was to make an overt example - that natural justice was not prevailing at the site - despite the forum and poll question. No one emailed me or PM'd me to object about my post, and you didn't discuss it's removal or alteration wiith me before hand, i.e I was denied natural justice.

I just pointed that out is all.

Because, it is related to the poll topic.

The land of the free and home of the brave...people who might not like what I say, but would fight to the death to preserve my right to say it.

Americans tell me thats what they love about their country, but in many instances, I see where they don't actually LIVE by the values they publicly espouse.

When you point this out - they take offence. :confused:

Hey - tis like water off a ducks back to me - who'd want to be a member of ANY web site that would allow ME to be a member (with apologies to Woody Allen)!:D

Last I'll say on it because I have amply made my point!

One mans terrosist, may be another mans freedom fighter, dependng upon which nations oil we are stealing this week!

Sadly - that is the way of the world under the now world oil oligarchy! (Whether any of us like it or not!).

Cheers!

Jeff

01-25-2006, 12:45 AM

The deletion - has made a mockery of an "open discussion" forum and the poll.
How would you feel if you offered me a free trip on your boat and I offended a number of the rest of your friends to such a degree that they were jumping overboard?

I do not like you chasing other people off this forum, at all.

Willallison

01-25-2006, 12:46 AM

Trouty. I like you. But for F#$%s sake shut up!:D
35 - 10 agree with me (poll results)
And leave Jeff alone - we love him!:p

trouty

01-25-2006, 12:53 AM

If you want to upset someone - tell em a lie, if you want to upset EVERYONE - tell em the truth!.

Sadly collateral damage (dead wimmin & kids) is not something, that sits easily with me..so I choose to tell it like I see it, and it upsets plenty.

I think I owe at least that much to the dead wimmin & kids and my God, who I suggest wouldn't take to kindly to the treatement we hand out to others in our desperate addiction to oil (including the oil we burn in our boats engines).

The only way to change the world is to stand up and be counted.

I've done that - always will, because it hels me sleep well at night.

My opinion in this matte won't be swayed, whether people jump overboard or not, that is THEIR choice if they can't live with their consciences...not mine.

I'll say no more - finito from me - we will just have to agree to disagree is all.

Cheers & let natural justice prevail for ALL. :)

Oyster

02-26-2006, 01:48 PM

mmd

03-08-2006, 08:46 AM

IMHO, the only political discussions to be tolerated on a boat-related forum such as this are those related to boats, such as licensure of boats & designers of boats, legislated safety and operational rules, etc. Trouty is out of line in the context of this forum's intent to provide a place for friendly off-topic conversation among boat enthusiasts. He is free to mount his soap-box on the street corner and shout his views to the world, but if he insists on doing so inside the walls of a private meeting place, he should expect to run the risk of being stifled or ejected.

Using the metaphor of the BoatDesign Forum as the office that we work in, we go to work and do work, think about work, and talk about work. Then we take a coffee break. During this break in the coffee room at the office, we talk about other things with our colleagues - the kids, what we did on the weekend, the big game last Sunday; general chit-chat stuff that is the social grease of our daily dialogues. The Open Discussion section is the coffee room at the BDF. I come here to have pleasant conversations with colleagues with whom I have some common interests.

Some people seem to spend most of their day in the coffee room.

Some people come to the coffee room just to be disruptive and pick fights.

Some people who don't even know anything about the work done at the office come to the coffee room to be disruptive and pick fights, and won't stop when asked.

I support the notion that the coffee room should have a security guard/bouncer to encourage the belligerant non-employees to go someplace else. Warned the first time, sat down and told to mind their manners the second time, and ejected and barred from the office on the third incident. Don't like the tough love? Too bad - you are free to mount your soap-box and rail about it to the world...outside.

Corpus Skipper

05-09-2006, 12:14 PM

Hey folks, if you want to vent your political rantings, check this place out, it's ripe for the picking! http://www.headsneedtoroll.org/forum/index.php

gonzo

05-21-2006, 01:44 PM

I think that politics do affect boating and some of it must be talked about. For example, in the context of regulations. My problem was, and is, with blurbs. These are unrelated commnets; out of context with the topic discussed. It beats me why some posters insist a boating forum must allow them to use it as their political soapbox. There are literally millions of political forums to choose from.

Figgy

05-21-2006, 03:45 PM

Sean Herron

06-11-2006, 10:21 PM

Hello...

I am one to invariably get myself into trouble on occasion...

I do not agree with eliminating politics from any human endeavour or discussion...

Politics is a human invention and should remain front and center for same - it seperates us from the hunters and gatherers...

Boat design - and by the simple the use of the word design - implies the need for discussion and input - the simple fact that this is a discussion of like minds to a common purpose creates a discussion framed around the absolute base of Democratic politics - which I believe to be the BEST example of same in our modern world - and for this matter - representative of our Democratic freedoms - as such - we must always accept freedom of opinion, freedom of speech and of public assembly - it is a foundation...

Importantly - and against what we feel emotionally - we must also allow for freedom of non majority opinion - in so much as doing same will keep that which is argued within the focus of proper media and prevent that which may be disagreeable from going underground where it can be lost to the majority ignorance and the Hollywood media - keep the enemy front and center and above ground - and thus within view of majority law and of those who respect same...

For that matter - I am not interested in some homogenous 'nothing place' - I am interested in the politics, the religion or anything that drives the man or woman of any race to attach themselves to the boating industry...

Money wise - it is market research - personally it is reaching out from where I am - let it all flow...

As for 'soapboxing' - go to Piccadilly or other now - and just listen to the hate spewed against that which offers sanctuary and good shoes to the announcer of same...

This is politics - and there is no getting away from it today...

Cheers...

SH.

Figgy

06-11-2006, 10:46 PM

Why? Why must we bring polotics into it? What purpose does it serve, other than piss people off? I understand it play a major role in everyones life, but for a few minutes can't we pretend it didnt? Just you and me and everyone else talkin' about boats...

longliner45

06-11-2006, 10:52 PM

this is about boats not politics ,,,,,if I wanted to talk politics ,I would go to another site,,,dont see how politics can help me paint my boat or make modifcations to it ,

Sean Herron

06-12-2006, 01:17 AM

Hello...

Cheers...

Same is same against the foundations of our Democracy...

As in Dante's Cave - the red dots are against the wall behind you - the shadows of what you perceive to be real, and if you can see that much - the threat is behind you again...

Keep turning around until they are beside you...:)

I suppose the above cannot register against those who do not know same - so I will just carry on in ignorance...

Show me your boats...

I know what you want, and I want it too - but it does not exist - if you start painting your boat and one man walks up and pitches some advice - welcome to the world of politics - no one has to get bombed out of house and home - but you may end up wanting to poke this guy in the eye with your brush while we all laugh and herd him out of the yard - it is all politics - hehe...:)

I guess I am argueing in favour of the worker who sweats and bleeds - literally - into the boats that he or she builds - and comes here to share same - some real experience for down time - where he or she finds a self appointed majority who seems to want to remain ignorant of the monetary truth of the world - where same carries on swallowing the beatnik ignorance of a time long gone by in any daily struggle...

Tell me how I should go about installing a six inch fiberglass exhaust bypass tommorow - and I will consider your future opinions...

Cheers again...

SH.

gonzo

06-12-2006, 08:09 AM

Sean Herron: my comment on blurbs is because of posters, that, like you, use a thread to talk about politics that are unrelated to the subject. You claim to be arguing for the "worker who sweats.." There are proper places to do so. You also say working on boats without politics entering into it "doesn't exist". Perhaps not, but it is because of people like you that won't stay on subject. Unless you can explain why it is a political issue to "pitch some advice" about painting techinques. It sounds paranoid.

DanishBagger

06-12-2006, 01:11 PM

I have to put my two "øre" (my form of "cents") here.

I think it would be nice if it were allowed to make political threads. The thing is, I like most of the people that I have had the fortune to meet through here, and it would be interesting to hear what makes them tick (and tick off) in more than "just" boats.

Although 100 percent sure this wasn't directed to me (I was taking a break from all things internet), I still would like to comment on it:

How would you feel if you offered me a free trip on your boat and I offended a number of the rest of your friends to such a degree that they were jumping overboard?

I do not like you chasing other people off this forum, at all.

Let me start by p'ing some people off, by saying that you're completely wrong.

Although I do see that we/you/the site won't live if everybody leaves, making a blanket rule saying that if people disagree and bitch about it, then those type of threads have to go. How do you discern what is politics, what is "offensive"?

Also, in the example, you're making a parallel that is both extreme and doesn't really hold water (no pun intended). The example is extreme because it states that the "offense" is so severe that people will jump overboard. Now, using the same example, but saying that "If I came aboard your boat, and people we're so offended by the brand of deodorant I was wearing that they jumped over board", I certainly wouldn't ban that brand of deodorant.

Secondly, the example is using the term "over board", and since that is an extreme, I would go as far as saying that people are perhaps just a tad oversensitised.

If the threads were in a dedicated place, then noone should take offense. What is next - deleting all the threads about speedboats because some eco-junkie find them offensive?

DanishBagger

06-12-2006, 01:14 PM

Hmm, I just realised that perhaps all of you guys are now discussing political "blurbs" in a thread that is already going, and is talking about something like, say, screws, or something?

Please tell me it is so?

Btw, I just realised, what if I make a thread about copper antifouling, it will be very hard not to talk politics, unless I merely ask where to get it.

Sean Herron

06-12-2006, 06:36 PM

Hello...

Well - I managed to get the six inch fiberglass tube exhaust bypasses' into both sides of the boat today - each about a 20 foot run downhill and then out the bottom of the swim grid...

Isn't that very interesting...

It is indeed boat related - big boat...:)

I had to hold back the fiberglassers until the whole thing was graded and roughed in but they still managed to do their part of the job today as well - so tommorow we can hang the lifts and mufflers - mufflers the size of a little man...:p

The intrigue and suspense of custom boat building - oooh...

SH.

longliner45

06-12-2006, 07:12 PM

sean my boat was designed in vancouver by john brandlmary,,,,,maybe you can tell me something about these boats ,,its 32 ft sloop,thanks

Sean Herron

06-12-2006, 11:22 PM

Hello...

I think you may mean John Brandlmayr - built by Spencer Yachts which was near the end of No. 6 Road in Richmond BC - If my memory serves me and it does not beyond finding my last stashed bottle - they were beside the glass shop that lays up the hulls for Monaro Marine which is owned by Dan Parker - an old Sonny Levi and Aranow disciple...

Spencer may still be going - I can actually check on my way home some day - and have the builder Email you...

You have probably been to this site http://www.spenceryachts.net/information.htm ...

I have no personal experience with same other than when I used to go pick up a Monaro hull - a Spencer has not come through the shop or the yard - which might speak for their quality - I remember them taking an otherwise LONG time with the detailing on the deck coring (a good thing) - but I have not been around same all that long to date...

As for the ongoing politics - I LOVE IT ALL - and can hold my own - and always will - and when I don't - I just let the air out of some deserving tires...;)

Remember - I may be thinking of someone else all together here - they come and go...'

Gonzo - I offer a humble handshake - and offer this - you and many include the word choice in your arguements here - do not use this word lightly when argueing opinion against belief - this site is where I 'chose' to spew and vent and rant and I may lose it once and awhile, so what - I do this S'hit for a living (as do many) and I choose to relax here - because I can - this because I assume that this site is inherently frequented by like minds, builders and designers and workers who by same nature are more likely to understand the mental meandering of a professional (daily grinder) boat builder - I am NOT argueing with anyone or with you - but I do prefer the company of what I assume to be 'like minds' - perhaps you have simply misunderstood me (I am used to it...:p ) and my intent and what is my lot in life - if this is not enough for you then let the politics reign and this campfire shall be smothered - as I say...

This is a very good site and I believe an open policy will preserve same - even if that policy simply preserves a 'professional space' for RANTS AND FOWL - that is what I think should be the new title for a new forum space - boatbuilders are a strange lot - many are hardened and many are worn out, some are idealistic beatniks, others are ignorant but willing newbies - I suggest a forum for the hardened internal men and women who like me do it 40 or more hours a week and want to vent a bit - how about that Jeff - same could generate a lot of sideline intereset but would require some internal and inherent (same) and STRINGENT (legal) guidelines - which men and women who do same daily adhere to - 'agree to the job'...

SH.