Copper Bottoms

[Capthookcc]

I live in Corpus christi, Tx. We have full size replicas of the Columbus Ships, a gift from Spain. I am a member of a group of sailors who have completed a sailing School and have sailed the Nina. For various reasons of no substance the ships have fallen into disrepair. We are making efforts to bring the first of the ships back on line this spring & summer. One of the things we've been thinking about is to put copper sheeting on the hull instead of taking it out every year. So far the cost of the copper sheeting pays for itself in two years.

WE are looking to speak with someone who has experience or could refer us to someone to discuss what we're trying and get some advice on type of copper, thickness, tools, techniques, and what are the real results of this effort going to be. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks;

John Torrey Capthookcc@yahoo.com

[PAR]

What a sad story, but typical unfortunally, of the fleet in Corpus Christi. These are arguably the most authentic built in the last 100 years. Is the Nina still afloat? Are Pinta and Santa Maria still dieing on the hard?

These ships must have a well developed plan for their ability to generate self sustaining funds. Yearly haul outs are just part of the operating costs of doing business with ships like these. Copper isn't a cure for this. If you take a look at the Columbus logs , you'll find these boats leaked as badly as a drunk with several beers in his belly. This is normal for the methods, materials and construction of these craft. The passage I remember most was "pumps manned 15 minutes per hour . . ." and this was normal.

A business executive, a fund raiser and a project ram rod need be hired, first thing. A trust or fund setup for the repairs and initial operating costs must be established. After repairs, a previously arranged schedule for service, what ever that may be, can be undertaken. This isn't easy, as the many historic and replica type vessels of the last 15 - 20 years have proven. The only ones that have been successful, have had long term plans for service, fund raising and closely matched operating costs with income and a little luck.

That barge bashing into Santa Maria and Pinta didn't help, but the project has been run down hill since 1992. I don't know if it's poor management (likely) or other reasons, but these will be the first things that need to be fixed. The key to success in all these projects are passionate people in charge of the money and operations. Not one or the other, but both. A finely skilled team of passion filled operators can do nothing with a board of executives that could care less, because it's not the cash cow they'd hoped for. The same goes the other way around.

Good luck to you and those fine replicas.

[cyclops]

Par. You really should get a copyright on that reply. It should be mandatory to be read at each board of trustees meeting. At all museums.

[gonzo]

I have installed copper sheathing. The use of modern materials between the copper and the planking helps. I use fiberglass felt bedded in roofing tar for bedding. The metal sheetwork is tedious and takes some experience to make it fit right. Also, make shure you recaulk and do any repairs before sheathing.

[PAR]

Here we go. You can skin the underwater portion of the hull with molded veneers of hardwood, entombed in epoxy with a sheathing of cloth. This same could be done with strip planking. Both would help keep the boat drier, but still wouldn't prevent the annual haul out requirement. At the very least the bottom will need to be cleaned, inspected, repaired if necessary and repainted. Corpus Christi is a semi-tropical environment which is quite harsh for the bottom of wooden boats, regardless of the methods employed in the planking or sheathing of same.

[Dr. J]

Here in the pacific southwest of Canada (Vancouver ),I have seen a few people sheath their boats in copper with little change in their overall maintainance schedules. In some cases it has increased the attention required to maintain their boats. The sheathing must be installed with great attention to ensure adequate coverage of bedding, with smooth and tight faying surfaces between the sheathing and hull. In general, the average volunteer may not have the abilities to do so. If there are holidays or bad humps in the sheathing, there exists the potential for marine borers such as teredos (ship's worms ) to infiltrate, especially at the point where the garboard and keel timber meet. Initially, ship's worms are very very small when they infiltrate into the ship's structure, usually through a broken fastening hole or the like. It does not, however, take long for them to grow in size and in the amount of damage that they can do. I have had to replace keel sections as long as twelve feet due to worm damage. As has been stated, there is really no change in the time and effort required to inspect and service the wetted surface, only the approach and methods of maintainance would change. Of course there is also the matter of adequate corrosion protection. I would determine the source of the leaking and address that before I would consider sheathing a boat in any type of material, Be it copper, epoxy, plywood or steel.

[Capthookcc]

Thank you for the replies. We have no leaks in the Nina. Its actually quite tight and in good shape. We were trying to avoid the cost of the haulouts. The bottom would be cleaned by divers and inspected.

We were trying to avoid the cost of the haulouts, while avoiding the barnacles.

Is a copper bottom a solution to barnacles?

John

[greatcircle2]

Anyone know of a good supplier of rolled sheeting. I'm trying to cover a 13ft runabout with meranti plywood bottom. The alloy I'm looking for is 70600 CuNi10fe a copper/nickel, 90/10 used for marine applications ( as per copper.org). Ideally I'd like a 40 inch width (36in would be just too little), trying to minimize soldering joints. I too would probabaly use roofing tar to apply unless there are some other suggetions. I need about a 75ft roll and 16oz/sqft. I can only find 3ftx10ft sections at that thickness. Thanks!

[Dr. J]

I have found that copper sheathing does not act as a long term deterrent to marine growth. I recently had to scrape marine growth off of a wooden hulled boat where there was no difference between the wooden hull sections and the areas that were sheathed in copper. These areas were located below the cooling pipes, and in various sections of the garboard seam. Although copper (antifouling) paint does contain high amounts of copper, it also contains various chemical (poisonous) additives that help deter marine growth. As concerns wooden hulled boats, most often, the antifouling paint applied is of the ablative type which means that it sloughs off little by little due to the movements of the boat. This type of bottom paint is, in relation to non ablative antifouling, softer. Unfortunately ablative antifouling does not last too long and requires reapplication more often than non ablative (harder)antifouling paints. I am not a fan of covering a wooden hulled boat with any materials due to the posibility that it could promote decay and possibly corrosion to fastenings and the like if not properly applied and maintained. I would consider applying more coats of antifouling in those areas that are exposed to sunlight and those areas that are subject to abrasion.

[PAR]

I know you don't want to hear it, but there's little you can do to avoid the haul out in the maintenance cycle of this size vessel. If the boat stays as it currently is, a static display, you can decrease the time between haul outs and keep the bottom clean with divers. If it's life changes, lets hope it does, and she can start sailing for a living, then regular haul outs will need be resumed. Unavoidably, the coatings will need renewing and inspections made on the hard. In spite of the best efforts of your divers, they can't see near as well as skilled eyes on land and the coatings can't be applied at her berth. I'm here across the gulf in Florida. Our conditions are very similar to yours. A quicker death will come to her if you cut corners on her maintenance schedule. This is the last area cuts should be made, if the best interest of the boat is coming first.

[gonzo]

Barnacles and coral grow really well on copper. It does prevent borers from attacking the wood though. For antifouling protection, monel sheating would be better.

[Frosty]

If you mean hauling out as in dry docking then yeah, phew I have to do mine every 12 months and thats fibreglass. But why couldnt you beach it,? thats probably what they would do 100 years ago. That what they' still' do here in Thailand. Thats how yer build em-- thats how yer fix em . Nope --silly Idea-- OK-- sorry

[FAST FRED]

Most sucessfull beaching requires small boats OR large tides.

Unfortunatly large tides are not universal.

FAST FRED

[Capthookcc]

Gentlemen;

Thank you for your replies. It appears that the copper sheeting is not the magic bullet we hoped it would be. We are trying to get a sailing program going again as well as our school to teach square rig sailing. There's a slim chance we may succeed. Right now we are the ONLY ones with any interest in actually taking care of the ships. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks ;
John

[Capthookcc]

There is a supplier of copper alloys at 1-800-926-2600 Ext 253. His name is Bill.

[PAR]

In their day these vessels were heeled and scrubbed, usually with the help of an extra low tide. Tide heights in their home port have a range of a few feet at most.

Capthookcc, email me and we can discuss where you are in the process and what will make the effort in getting these girls wet on there bellies. There are a few ways to go with this and it would be a shame to let them rot away with only a few thousand miles under their keels.

[Corpus Skipper]

Unfortunatly large tides are not universal.
Here in Corpus, it's usually 1-2 feet. No Bay of Fundy! :D John, I sympathize with you, being a fellow resident of The Big Tortilla I know how politics and funding work (rather DON"T work) here. The Columbus Fleet has a sick neighbor, the USS Lexington. She looks great on the entrance (stbd) side, you need a tetanus shot to look at the port side. How long 'till she rusts through? Life in Corpus Christi.
Perhaps a volunteer program for haul out time would be possible? I'm no wood boat expert, but I can scrape barnacles and smear on bottom paint! Maybe you could shame Bludworth's yard into a drastically reduced haul out rate. :D

[Frosty]

Mmmm- well heres another idea you wont like. I dont know how big these vessels are but what about ordering a load of steel plate and build your own submersable dock. Its just a block built of steel ,just weld it all together( ok its a bit more involved than that) buy a second hand deisel engine weld it on a bed and drive a pump. Its not much to em. You can then take out the girls when ever you want and take others out too and charge for it .Hey you might even make money. Any ship breakers near by? use second hand steel as much as poss. I saw them build one in Thailand once for a super yacht. One boat, one time only. Nope-- silly idea-- ok ---sorry

[pungolee]

I visited this boat when it came to Beaufort North Carolina a few years back.The price to board was so high,and you could only walk on deck,everything below was locked up.Take an example from the Elizabeth 2 at Manteo,lower tourist prices,let them see everything.Go for quantity of visitors.This was a great looking boat,very cool.Good luck.Hire a pretty girl thats good with kids as your promoter.