Flying Moths

[Wynand N]

Here are some links to Moth sites.

http://www.moth-sailing.org/
http://www.moth.asn.au/
http://web593.server37.greatnet.de/index.html (excellent site)
http://www.moth.nl/
http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk/

Are these the fastest sailing boats - size for size :?:

[Richard Petersen]

They look like --- WAAAHOOOO----- boats. :)

[Andy P]

The frst outing of the first foiling Moth in 1994

The foiler Moth must now be almost the fastest dinghy.
Even before the exceptional speeds of the foilers, they were/are still the fastest 11 footers!

[Doug Lord]

John Ilett builder of the World Championship Moth hydrofoils was recently clocked at 19 knots in a 10-12 knot wind. Rohan Veal ,current World Champion was clocked at 21k a while back and has since gone much faster...

[Wynand N]

Doug,

The two top line photos on the left is in fact Rohan Veal flying.

[Doug Lord]

Thanks, Wynand!

[CT 249]

"Are these the fastest sailing boats - size for size?"

Does anyone know how to calculate it? I did some playing with numbers, trying to find out how size affected speed in dinghies. It's hard to find boats of different sizes but similar design, because smaller boats have ratio problems and are normally designed for less experienced racers.

But it seems that (unlike yachts where big boats are comparatively slow) the speed of a dinghy is roughly proportionate to its LOA all else being (very roughly) equal.

So....using available yardsticks and assuming a 12' skiff is similar in speed to a 14 (12s haven't raced modern 14s for some time, but apparently they're roughly the same) and using the Portsmouth Handicap from the Tiger Trophy for the foiler Moth, it seems to be damn near a tie between the 12' skiff and the Moth.

BUT (very big "but") that's just looking at LOA. If we look at speed for sail area like the Europeans used to (which is perhaps more accurate) the Moth must be miles ahead of any boat. Na, make that light years ahead.

The Moth would be well ahead of the 12 on speed for dollar, but then again on that basis they'd both be way down the listings. (One wonders; would the Laser win on a speed for dollar basis with new production boats?).

According to yardsticks, the Moth is still a minute fraction slower than the singlehanded skiff, the RS 700. HOWEVER my info is that the RS' manufacturer "beat up" the yardstick to make the boat look faster (they do use the yardstick in PR). If that piece of info (which accords with other info) and the Tiger Trophy handicap is true, the Moth is now the fastest singlehanded dinghy; faster than the 16/17' RS700, Canoe and MPS which have spinnakers, racks and traps or planks.

Speed against boards would be interesting; the old Olympic Lechner windsurfer (12'9") was possibly the fastest singlehanded mono until the foiler came along. It would almost certainly still be faster than the foiler under 5/6 knots and perhaps also whenever the Moth starts to struggle in a breeze. In the moderate stuff (15 knots) the Lechner and Mistral are probably on the pace with a Hobie 16 on a windward/leeward course but the Moth apparently beats top A class cats in those winds, so it's mebbe 10% quicker than the board (very, very, very roughly). That's when the board isn't pumping which it can do under class rules (and it makes a HUGE difference).

Formula Windsurfer boats are just 8' ish long and incredibly fast in moderate stuff but they are Optimist food in 6 knots. So overall, it seems to me that the foiler Moth is not just the fastest dinghy for its size, not just the fastest singlehanded dinghy/skiff, but almost certainly the fastest singlehanded monohull.

[Doug Lord]

Was that really Chris 249 writing that assesment of the Moth? Very well done!
But speed of the Moth on foils is in it's infancy and there are giant leaps to come with changes in foil section, manual"gear shift" changes in foil incidence/angle of attack and other incremental improvments leading to lower takeoff speed and higher top end speed.
So many things are being looked at now from the comfort of the incredibly well designed Ilett foil system which provides a "starting point" for refinement leading -probably- to big speed increases.On foilers similar to the Moth but not bound by the class rules easy to change foil configurations will be available as will be Moth size foilers designed to JUMP! Why should the water gnats, kiteboarders and windsurfers have all the fun-jumping in a hydrofoil will be as easy as a twist grip control on a motorcycle-and when it's finally worked out well you'll even be able to survive the landing!
Moth two foil technology will drift into production ,relatively easy to sail, foilers as time goes by so that anybody that wants to can get one-and fly-and jump.Can't hardly wait...

[Richard Petersen]

What is the price range of a beginners Moth. Also what speeds could I expect in my afternoon breezes which start to form small whitecaps? Are they easy and safe enough for 14 year old kids to master? Thanks.

[Doug Lord]

Richard, I've never sailed a Moth so I hope Andy or Chris will chime in here. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "beginers Moth" if you're talking about a foiler. The Moth has a hull about 1 foot wide and can take a long time to get used to enough to just sail normally.But some experienced sailors haved hopped aboard and sailed right off the bat.A big disadvantage for someone interested in racing is that there are no boats(foilers) yet in the US but that will be changing shortly-but not by a lot.
But my guess is that 14 is a great age to start if the guy is already a good sailor , can take a few setbacks and is persistent. You can contact John Ilett and john@fastacraft.com for current pricing and shiping to the US. I think the price is about $8-11,000 US-at least in that ballpark.
The Moth is difficult to learn to sail but extremely
rewarding from what I see and hear and they are the only monohull foilers avalilable.There MAY be other monofoilers -much easier to sail- in the next year or so ...

[Skippy]

I was going to look for a slightly less aggressive model to start with, but then I thought about the Moth, you could always put training wheels on it. (amas) :)

[Richard Petersen]

Lorsail. I webbed USA. Only classic and modern. No foils or mention on club sites. The price is out of line. Add a 5.0L mercruiser and it's hopeless. :eek: Good do it yourself size and weight project. :) Thanks for the help. Rich-----------------------------A closer look reveals the do it your self approaches on the boats. 2 old style hydro foils to use untill they are bored. Then transfer to the single of either foil. I want them to master it, not get frustrated. Thanks to all for the picture postings. Rich

[casavecchia]

Hi all,
two Moth foilers will soon arrive in Italy.
My friend Manuel Vaccari of www.oxosails.com bought in Australia two Moth foilers and together we will try to start a fleet in Italy.
Next European Championships will be held in Campione, Lake Garda and that will be a great opportunity for displaying those fantastic boats.
Hope that all those interested in Italy will contact me.
Another Moth is presently under construction, a Andy Paterson design , one is already sailing on Lake Garda and I heard romours of another one in Trieste.
Comments and suggestions will be appreciated.
Marco.

[John ilett]

I think that there may be some mordern narrow moths in the US already but these are not foilers. There is one being built in CA to be fitted with Fastacraft foils and my own Prowler foiler which is now heading to San Francisco very soon.

A class sailor Manuel Vaccari visited Perth recently to try the moth. He manage to foil for short distances on just his second outing on the boat, the first outing was with just regular foils (no hydrofoiling). They're not easy but if you have the balance then you will learn quick enough. It's not the foiling that makes it tough, that's just moth sailing as any current moth sailor could foil in a minute.

I always tell people that the moths are like another craft or skill that you have to learn like a bike or a windsurfer. The problem is that many current dinghy sailors do not like like the idea of learning to sail again. Lucky that this does not stop the keen young sailors from giving it a go. Like windurfing, once you can do a nice carve gybe you don't look back and you don't have to think so much about what you are doing.

[TaSSie_deVil]

G'day all,

I've been looking at alternative systems to the Illet foil system recently, and I've come across the Air-Chair/Sky-Ski foiling sit-ski/surfboard/windsurfer arangement, and I am considering doing something similar for my testbed moth (very old narrow skiff, with a centreboard case placed very far aft). Any ideas if these things use movable control systems to keep undercontrol in terms of pitch and yaw, or does it all rely upon the "tailplane" foil to avoid nosediving?

I know that having a pair of foils under the water attached to an aft-biased centreboard would be an issue in light winds, due to higher WSA vs. a single foil, but this may allow me to eliminate the need for a T-foil on the rudder to assist in gaining a positive A.o.A.

Has anyone here used an air chair-based foiler, and hence have some opinion to their difficulty in handling? It appeared to me that they derive stability from the aft placement of the foil relative to the centre of mass. Any insights into these "airplane" style foils would be appreciated!

Likewise John, I noticed from piccys from worlds and nats that your latest boat (flying lime) had a centre-hull based control wand. How does that work, and did it show any advantages over the accepted bow mounted arrangement?

For those who don't know what I'm on about, http://www.skyski.com has piccys of their sit skis and foiling boards.

Cheers,
Jon
Int. Moth AUS 9157

[Doug Lord]

Jon, I saw one using the actual air chair foil but built by a Doctor sailing in Merritt Island, Fl. a while ago. The vertical fin was just a little forward of the normal single fin position on a windsurfer. He said he had 3 hrs. time on it the day I saw him and he was getting 15-30 seconds air time. The board was not significantly faster than a "normal" board but the Doc described the sensation as incredible.
The foil did not move so he controlled it 100% with rig and body movement. Said he need about 15k wind to get up and that day was 15-20...
=====================
I couldn't open your url so it may have this but just in case take a look:
http://neilprydemaui.com/itemDetails.php?id=48

[TaSSie_deVil]

Doug,

opened your url, and yes, basically, that windsurfer uses the same foil arrangement as what I am considering, not too unlike a plane. I am only thinking it over for the time being, but as far as I could see, that foil arangement eliminates the need for a control wand by using a tailplane foil that assists to keep the main foil under under a condition of a constantly positive angle of attack, and it has the advantage of being able to support the crew weight a significant distance forward of the main foil without severe pitching problems, and it can be placed a fair way aft compared to the bifoiler arrangements that are being seen in Moths at the moment.

I am sure that with more time and practice, that a moth could get up and foiling on a similar system for longer than 30 seconds at a time, and in less than 15 knts of breeze. Pace though, may be another issue to be dealt with at a later stage of development.

Cheers,
Jon

[D'ARTOIS]

Hey! I won't be last!