new round the world record

[yipster]

just watched ellen macarthur & nigel irens on bbc world tv.
http://www.teamellen.com
http://www.solarnavigator.net/ellen_mac_arthur.htm
http://www.yachting-world.com/yw/home.htm

[dougfrolich]

Go Ellen Go!!! 15knots+ Ave. speed 'round the world, simply Amaaaaazing!!!

[preacherman]

Congratulations to that amazing 15+ knots, sincerely.
It surely is a gargantuan task for a human being, but I can't still stop asking why; with all that backup of the industry and the press and don't know who else, she also should be asking why ?
Tomorrow there will be another pilot like Schumacher ( or was it Senna ?) who will be better equipped with hardware, sponsors, tacticians, sleep-trainers, nutrition experts and so on, who will make 16+ knots.
If you want to make speed, do it on the runway, if you want to go around the world (such a dream for so many of us) do it the right way, in your own style. Knots don't count, hours and minutes neither.
If I do my humble 5+ knots in my corner of the med in my restricted time, I certainly feel the same satisfaction, and less stress.

I have all the respect in the world for that lady, but I can't comprehend.

[Richard Petersen]

The personal risks put here along side Evil Kenivil.

[Doug Lord]

She is the greatest! And one hell of an inspiration!
Congratulations to her for a tremendous job and to Nigel Irens for setting such a high standard in trimaran design!

[sorenfdk]

do it the right way, in your own style.
And that's just what Ellen did. Hats off!

[D'ARTOIS]

An "IRON LADY" (in fact she just is officially!)

[water addict]

Any good links showing details of her boat out there? I can only find PR type stuff.

[MikeJohns]

At the risk of sounding dour about Ellen's admitedly impressive personal achievement

I think the real heroes were people like Slocum,Pidgeon, Gerbault, Chichester , Rose, Dumas and others who self funded with often poorly suited even self built or restorted wooden vessels managed to self navigate without any electronic aids and push the boundries of possibility rather than just performance.

Now with sponsership autohelms computer interfaced equipment long term weather forecasting satellite phones and state of the art boats (and sophisticated rescue services) we just repeat that which has been done before, just faster.
The next hero will average 0.1 knots faster

So much depends on your luck with the weather chasing speed records.

[amolitor]

People still die out there in the southern ocean. This business where someone reels off a list of the technology and implies that these New Kids are not the Iron Men of Yore irritates me at this point, with apologies to you MikeJohns. Yeah, that stuff helps, but at the end of the day people die out there, it has not been made Easy or Safe. On a little bit easier, a little bit less dangerous, and when things do go wrong, maybe some other people who are Just Like You will undertake some remarkable effort and save your life. Maybe.

I don't care if the next hero does it 0.1 knots slower. It's still insanely difficult and dangerous, and these are no-kidding remarkable people.

Slocum would likely have looked on people like Ellen as a) remarkable sailors and b) remarkably crazy. Slocum didn't do that idiotic Drake Passage **** -- that's DANGEROUS. He took the Straits of Magellan. He avoided the southern ocean almost completely, went over the top of Australia, went through the mid-Pacific, and the Indian Ocean.

[mistral]

hey Mike, you can give me all electronics aids of the world, but i wouldn't survive 6 hours in a trimaran punched by force-7 seas, no to mention force 8-9......no matter how many web connections, weather files, GPS, and tricky stuffs i have on board
different sail ages, different motivations, different people, but anyway great seamanship and great sailors, and most of all, the same gray howling, roaring cold ocean out there, ready to get rid both of your hyper technological trimaran and of your classic heavy schooner.

Mistral

[dionysis]

...and she looked so good too! Fresh as a daisy.

I think she did a wonderfull thing. Piting herself against the sea that way, shows courage, determination, and seamanship, and a quite ridiculous sense of adventure.....but what the hell, would'nt you like to be in her place?

[gybeset]

At the risk of sounding dour about Ellen's admitedly impressive personal achievement

I think the real heroes were people like Slocum,Pidgeon, Gerbault, Chichester , Rose, Dumas and others who self funded with often poorly suited even self built or restorted wooden vessels managed to self navigate without any electronic aids and push the boundries of possibility rather than just performance.

Now with sponsership autohelms computer interfaced equipment long term weather forecasting satellite phones and state of the art boats (and sophisticated rescue services) we just repeat that which has been done before, just faster.
The next hero will average 0.1 knots faster

So much depends on your luck with the weather chasing speed records.

A farmers tractor could circulate the montecarlo grand prix track as well, eating his lunch and having a smoke. thats the difference/point GET IT??

At the speed they did, and the luxury of not having to 'press on' , in fact they could anchor behind any rock ,any idiot could do it without aids and in shitters.

The pressure of the clock magnifies every incredible action of the modern record-breaker, nowhere to hide, no where to relax, the ultimate utilisation of thousands of years of evolving boatdesign(.net)

[K4s]

Congratulations to that amazing 15+ knots, sincerely.
It surely is a gargantuan task for a human being, but I can't still stop asking why; with all that backup of the industry and the press and don't know who else, she also should be asking why ?
Tomorrow there will be another pilot like Schumacher ( or was it Senna ?) who will be better equipped with hardware, sponsors, tacticians, sleep-trainers, nutrition experts and so on, who will make 16+ knots.
If you want to make speed, do it on the runway, if you want to go around the world (such a dream for so many of us) do it the right way, in your own style. Knots don't count, hours and minutes neither.
If I do my humble 5+ knots in my corner of the med in my restricted time, I certainly feel the same satisfaction, and less stress.

I have all the respect in the world for that lady, but I can't comprehend.
Why not,people get their kicks in different ways,yours appear to be cruisy and laid back,Ellens sure arent as you say she probably shares the same ammount of satisfaction as you,and possibly is asking the same question as you.There are plenty of people who appear to not only thrive on the stress but actually need it to be fully satisfied,Im not one of them by the way :cool:
There really isnt a right or wrong way I dont think,but to figure out which is right for you means actually plucking up the courage and making it happen, :( one day maybe.
K4s

[K4s]

At the risk of sounding dour about Ellen's admitedly impressive personal achievement

I think the real heroes were people like Slocum,Pidgeon, Gerbault, Chichester , Rose, Dumas and others who self funded with often poorly suited even self built or restorted wooden vessels managed to self navigate without any electronic aids and push the boundries of possibility rather than just performance.

Now with sponsership autohelms computer interfaced equipment long term weather forecasting satellite phones and state of the art boats (and sophisticated rescue services) we just repeat that which has been done before, just faster.
The next hero will average 0.1 knots faster

So much depends on your luck with the weather chasing speed records.
Dont know ,maybe wrong but Im pretty sure its not a compition to find out who is or is not a hero

[PAR]

Considering the extremely small handful of people that have accomplished this feet, much unlike the few thousand who have climbed of Mt. Everest, MikeJohn does seem dour. Slocum was notable, being first, but it did take two years, Ellen bested the wildest ideas of a science fiction writer's dream of (his thinking, quite imposable) 80 days.

[MikeJohns]

I did say it was impressive, ( said defensively).

But these vessels are huge expensive and high tech. A classic Golden record breaker................ If you can get the gold and some luck then you can break the record!

There are thousands of capable sailors who could have done it on that boat, but they didn't get the opportunity.

I would say the designers deserve much of the accolade too.

Yes OK it's still impressive.



At the speed they did, and the luxury of not having to 'press on' , in fact they could anchor any rock (sic) ,any idiot could do it

Cichester was 67 with cancer a problematic vessel and no backup team. For his courageous feat it took a man who was head and shoulders above many of the others of his day. I remember his trip I was in England when he arrived. I watched Ellen go around too, and I look foreward to reading her account. A circumnav could not have been achieved by (your quote) "any idiot" then or now.

[mistral]

A circumnav could not have been achieved by an idiot then , but I suspect it could now. ( No slur on current circumnavigators)

ok, so, leave the dock, spread your sails and go, we'll all wait for your news
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Mistral

[gybeset]

"There are thousands of capable sailors who could have done it on that boat, but they didn't get the opportunity"

NO

there aren't several thousand who could sail that boat around the world or have the intense training and knowledge of the complex systems to kep it going,she can rebuild engines,electrical sytems,computers and water makers just for starters,phycological and biorythm and expert on the human bodies capabilities;
and far far far less that could do it in that record time, a handful

oh yeah she been "set" for that distance, a spe******t, and like spe******ts you MAKE your own luck

Do you realise it's the 4th fastest time EVER ,crewed or not crewed,man or woman, in an age of "G" giants ( theres 5 in the Indian NOW!) ; and it's the fastest time ever for a boat under 110 foot

like the thread on S Anarchy there seems to be an idea that if a small staured gal did it, it must not be difficult to do, these may be that percentage that keep there wives at home and shopping I fear.

Like her performances in OPEN 60 monos, it is truly at the pinnacle, as 2004 much lauded Francis Joyon agrees

[water addict]

Why the denigrating remarks from some towards this notable acheivement? There are always the folks out there who say that junk I guess. "Yeah I could have done it if I had the chance".

That's the point. 99% of life is making the chance for yourself to actually proceed with the pusuit of your goal, not someone else giving it to you.

Off my soapbox now. Have a nice day!

[MikeJohns]

Remember a forum is all about venturing an opinion, even starting a debate. I wanted people to consider that she is not the pioneer , just the latest in a long line , and a highly funded, team supported solo circumnav.

I am happy to say again it is still an impressive achievement !

I edited my last post to make clearer my reply to the idiot comment by "gybeset" in the days of Yore children (or close thereto) for example would not have been able to circumnavigate yet now they do so in comparative ease (compared with the days of yore).

Now on with the forum

In Australia we have a number of very capable women sailors who would have sold their souls for the opportunity. It seems large sponsorship deals tend to go elswhere.

If you want a golden record breaker what chance would you have if you were a Pakistani or say an Eritrean sailor ..... zilch

[yago]

I have been living in la Rochelle, France for many years living on my boat and met many of the aspiring racers then.

These people had a determination to sail and to race that left room for nothing else. They all had many years of crusing behind them and had started racing early. Getting a project up and running, just to participate wth an older boat required an anormous amount of work, human qualities, organizational and social talents. All of them were first class sailors, and all of them had to go through years of active racing before anybody even would pay them 5 dollars for sticking a bumpersticker on the stern of their first, borrowed 5 year old and outdated mini-transat or fastnet hull. Many of them spent years just fitting other peoples boats out and earning peanuts and living from nothing, just to get in.

Sposorship does not fall from heaven anywhere, it has to be fought for and it has to be earned the very, very hard way on the boats, on the water, in banks and meeting rooms and it leaves many of them without a penny in the end and a loan on their house. All those people I met in these days were great characters, great friends.
Somebody mentioned Schumacher here - that guy does not win because of ferrari but because he was already racing carts when others were in the kindergarden ;-)
Every single sailor out there on these machines is the best sailor you will ever meet. Saying that thousands of others could do it given the money is just silly.

Gerd

[Doug Lord]

Gerd, that was the most astute comment yet. Well said!

[MikeJohns]

Sposorship does not fall from heaven anywhere, it has to be fought for and it has to be earned the very, very hard way on the boats, on the water, in banks and meeting rooms and it leaves many of them without a penny in the end and a loan on their house.
Every single sailor out there on these machines is the best sailor you will ever meet.
Saying that thousands of others could do it given the money is just silly.

Gerd


I think you are supporting my dour observations. :) Forgive me for plowing on, but I do not agree with some of what you say

This is the level we have to get to now to be in the running for a time record you have to be rich or be able to attract huge amounts of sponsorship, this in turn means being an effective lobbyist and marketer on top of being an already famous sailor.

If you can succeed then the personal investment is repaid considerably. Its a bit like politics a mix of good contacts, personality, drive, and ambition. People like Pete Goss really struggled to compete because they lacked the financial support, others whom you have never heard of failed to get the backing or went bankrupt trying to build the boat.

If you can sail well that's a good start but to be elevated to Ellens enviable position means you made it to the top of the heap. She has my admiration for this, she would probably make an excellent company CEO.

I have one interview with a French sailor who had completed (won?) the open 60, he said "The hardest part of the race was the fundraising. If you can sail you can sail but to get the funds to build a decent boat................"

You do not need to be a good tactical fleet competitor to be a good round the world sailor, and I do think there are many capable people who can sail very well who could do the deed, but lack the charisma and the drive to achieve fundraising.

My hat still goes off to her

[yago]

This is the level we have to get to now to be in the running for a time record ....

Mike. this is really nothing new. I do not think that there has ever been a time when high-level racing was done from pocket money. It always needed excellent sailing skills, determination and lots of money.

Actually I think it's just the contrary of what you seem to bee saying if I understand you right: Today - as opposed to the times when racing was ONLY for the rich - EVERYBODY can really make it and none of the people I met were born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

If you look at the people in single handed ocean racing today, how they started and how they got there, and then look at the gentlemans racing a hundred years ago, I think you will agree that ocean racing has become much more accessible to everybody with the talent and the guts to go and do it. Just got to vendeeglobe.org and check out the participants backgrounds.

Racing Budgets are big, yes, and they always were. Good thing that the big companies now find it profitable to fork out that sort of promotional cash and that we do not have to rely on a few wealthy individuals.

As to "Slocum, Pidgeon, Gerbault, Chichester , Rose, Dumas etc", this is another type of sailing, and it's still being done today and by many more people than were circling the globe in their times.

[yago]

In Australia we have a number of very capable women sailors who would have sold their souls for the opportunity. It seems large sponsorship deals tend to go elswhere.

Send them to France to live in a tent from dry bread and get some cheap old mini. ;) That's were the budgets are, they have daily prime time coverage of these races on TV and an enthousiastic public.

[dionysis]

In the past - before technology became such a large part of our lives, if a person broke a record or accomplished something extraordinary - it was down, at least to a greater extent that now - to their inate abilities, their own resourcefullness, intelligence. This is why we admired them so much. They did it with so little.

The point I think that Mike is making - is that the influence of better technology, money and backing, is making the accomplishment of extraordinary feats like Ellen's, less and less a matter of those human qualities we associate and love with sailing, and more and more and perhaps as well as, those admitable qualities, that we associate with boardrooms, and banks etc.

As yago says: was is ever really different? Perhaps no, in terms of racing - but yes in terms of opening up possibilities for others, in the tradition of Slocum and others.

[yago]

The point I think that Mike is making - is that the influence of better technology, money and backing, is making the accomplishment of extraordinary feats like Ellen's, less and less a matter of those human qualities we associate and love with sailing, and more and more and perhaps as well as, those admitable qualities, that we associate with boardrooms, and banks etc.

I know what you feel, and many of us feel that, but if we are really honest with ourselves we have to admit it's a matter of perception.
In those good old days before modern technology, they had to - just as today - make use of all the modern technology at their disposal in their days and find the neccessary funding to do so. It just looks "simple" to us today. Looking back on it from our GPS screens and sattelite routing and kevlar rigs. You can still sail as simple as Slocum, many do, and for my personal plans I feel much closer to him than to the next America's challenger (just check out my website for a my own "simple" design ;) ) but whenever they were racing fifty or a hundred years ago it was never with a Spray replica build in a field and a kitchen arlarm boiled in oil ... they did not have any carpet tacks either

I think we all agree here that Ellen did an absolutely fantastic job, but just wait, in fifty years, when somebody will fly a foiler around dressed up in a spacesuit in 20 days for a billion dollar budget everybody is going to say: OK, nice job, but you can't compare that to the days of Slocum, Knox Johnston or Ellen McArthur.... they did not need that sort of money, they were real sailors! ;)

[gggGuest]

Seems to me in some ways it was shed loads easier in Slocum/Chichester's days, when a couple of hours sleep wouldn't mean that you were ready to hit something that was out of sight when you turned in. In boats that (according to quite a few on this forum) were far more seaworthy. In boats that didn't hurtle across the water throwing you around like a runaway train wreck.

[dionysis]

Yes, perhaps after all, that "matter of perception" has something also to do with the difference in temperament between racing sailors, and cruising ones.

I have visited your site. What can I say, internal ballast - an excellent solution. I think more people interested in building their own cruisers should consider internal ballast.

Refreshing website too. Cheers.

[CT 249]

Gerd, I agree with much of what you said, apart from "Every single sailor out there on these machines is the best sailor you will ever meet."

Do you really mean that the guy or woman who runs at the back of the Mini Transat fleet is better than Robert Schiedt at sailing?

If these guys are so incredibly good, all of them, how come McKee could come so close to success with such a short programme and so little experience in the field?

By the way, I have HUGE respect for McKee who is IMHO one of the world's best; you don't get a full set of Olympic medals in the family across three classes without being someone very special. But he doesn't get to the front that quickly in other classes so how can ALL the mini guys be the best?

[yago]

... you don't get a full set of Olympic medals in the family across three classes without being someone very special.

just my point ... must be another one of the best ;-)

[CT 249]

Yes, but to get those medals, the McKees trained hard for years. It took them a lot of training and experience to get to the top in some of those classes. In some classes (like 49ers and 18' skiffs) they were full-time sailors but never made it right to the top. In others (Tasars) where they sail full time, even part-time sailors can knock Jonothan off in about half the races.

In contrast, Jonothan had very little experience in Minis or shorthanded ocean racing and yet he was dominating the race. He doesn't dominate like that in other classes.

It just seems a bit strange that you're implying that a class in which Jonothan was winning by a long way, despite a huge lack of experience, is stronger than classes in which he has enormous experience yet gets beaten half the time.

[DGreenwood]

One must remember that there are natural abilities that play strong in the MT. You can practice sailing a Mini till you are blue and if you can't tough out the lack of sleep, poor food, cold wet nights, making repairs under way etc. you aren't going to do well. Occasionally a natural talent shows up in OD racing and kicks butt when they aren't practiced enought to "deserve it" but that does not detract from the quality of the racing or the level of skill required. The MT is damn tough and many a dinghy sailor has underestimated it and suffered. That did not make the MT a greater or a lesser type of racing---just suited for some.
I think Jonathan is just tough as an old boot.

[brian eiland]

I ran across this analysis that I thought had merit.

From Don Watson:
I can get on to the second part of the letter I wanted to send yesterday which is that impressive as Ellen's achievement is, I am still amazed at Francois Joyon's previous voyage. He sailed an old boat with old sails around the world one day slower than it had been sailed with a full crew. He did the refit himself and had no website, no shore team, no sponsor and no weather routers. He broke the record by 21 days.

Ellen had Joyon's target to aim at, a brand new boat, new sails and a professional support team. Ellen is amazing and given any kind of reasonable weather in the Atlantic might well have taken five days off the record, but, for me, Joyon's seamanship and pure sailing talent are unmatched.

Brian added: Now I think the weather routing item is particularly important. There certainly is an advantage there. And think of how extra hard you drive yourself when you are chasing a recently established record. Granted a single-handed sail around the world, and at this speed average is phenomenal, but I still think Joyon's acomplishment was greater.

[DGreenwood]

These sorts of discussions somehow remind me of the old "Ford is better than Chevy" discussions from High School.

[Doug Lord]

Go Ellen! You're the greatest!

[CT 249]

One must remember that there are natural abilities that play strong in the MT. You can practice sailing a Mini till you are blue and if you can't tough out the lack of sleep, poor food, cold wet nights, making repairs under way etc. you aren't going to do well. Occasionally a natural talent shows up in OD racing and kicks butt when they aren't practiced enought to "deserve it" but that does not detract from the quality of the racing or the level of skill required. The MT is damn tough and many a dinghy sailor has underestimated it and suffered. That did not make the MT a greater or a lesser type of racing---just suited for some.
I think Jonathan is just tough as an old boot.


I agree with much of that, in that I'm not saying the MT is a lesser type of racing; I just can't find any evidence it's a greater type of racing as Gerd said.

I'm not much up on the MT, who were the top dinghy sailors who underestimated it and suffered?

I always think it's almost impossible to work out the "toughest" or "best" class.....apart from everything else, I can't work out how well I sail from class to class and I can't rate the standards of the classes I sail in, so how can people from outside a class know how well people in it sail????

[kkimble]

People who belittle Ellen's achievement because of high tech or big sponsors should read her book. She started out way behind most of us a few years ago and lived in a shipping container on a dock while working her way up. Her knowledge of boat systems is amazing as well as her tactical and weather abilities. I think she has the stuff that would have enabled her to be one of the 1960's circumnavigators

[Doug Lord]

Ellen, is one of the greatest ever-without a doubt....

[MikeJohns]

I think a classic example of the sponsorship spiral was the Transat OSTAR when the Frenchman Alain Colas turned up in Plymouth aboard a 236 foot alloy 4 master equiped with everything from state of the art Nav aids to electric furling. He was physicaly disabled at the time (with a crushed foot from a prior accident) but the boat (ship) had a high level of automation.

The Royal Western Yacht club reacted quickly to put a stop to what they described as "such madness" overall lengths were restricted and in a knee jerk reaction, electronic navaids were banned!

They were trying to keep the big sponsership Francs away from the event so it could still be competed by the likes of Hasler, Lewis, Chichester, and others who did not have the advantage of Millions of Dollars for massive fast boat development and production. Colas was essentially buying victory with massive sponsership. Sportsmanship was dead .

Many French companies and even Governement wanted to kick stupendous amounts of money into National-pride by producing the fastest boats. Denied subseqent OSTARs they set up their own races starting the first essentially open classes. Sizes and technologies quickly moved into giant mono and multihulls and designs which were downright dangerous but very fast.

There followed what can only be described as an explosion of commercial sponsorship. The money flowed freely and quickly the boast became high technology beds with hitec autopilots, shore based team support, weather routing, radar collision monitoring ,and tactical team decisions for the "SOLO" sailer .

This is the world in which Ellen has just had her success.

[DGreenwood]

So what you are implying is: If Ellen were limited to a budget that more people could afford she would not do as well? Are you saying that out there somewhere is a down-on-his-luck sailing genius that could stomp her record if he just had the chance. Or are you saying that it is folly to spend money to ratchet up the technology? Sorry I am confused as to what you are trying to say here.

[yago]

There followed what can only be described as an explosion of commercial sponsorship. The money flowed freely and quickly the boast became high technology beds with hitec autopilots, shore based team support, weather routing, radar collision monitoring ,and tactical team decisions for the "SOLO" sailer

Exactly. Great. Fantastic. ;)

[sharpii2]

So what you are implying is: If Ellen were limited to a budget that more people could afford she would not do as well? Are you saying that out there somewhere is a down-on-his-luck sailing genius that could stomp her record if he just had the chance. Or are you saying that it is folly to spend money to ratchet up the technology? Sorry I am confused as to what you are trying to say here.

I think he is saying that our entire lives are so dominated by money that everywhere we look, the pound, the dollar, the euro, seem to be the determining factor in the out come of EVERYTHING. I solute Ellen and her great accomplishment, but somehow it just does'nt inspire me the way the old pioneers did. Although it is true that yacht racing in the past was just as expensive back when as it is today, few people remember the great yachts men of yore in the way they remember Slocum, Pigeon, Dumas and Montesuir.
Why is that?
I have a theory.
Those four and their accomplishments seemed to imbue me with the 'I can do' spirit, where as Ellen and her peers tend to remind me of an 'expert class' that is unapproachable on its pedestal. Such an 'expert class' now dominates practically EVERY aspect of our lives. It seems that most of us have reached the point of being of being mere watchers rather than doers. Since most of us have no hope of EVER comming near their level of talent, luck, and accomplishment of these 'experts'. Everytime I think of them, the same six words come to mind: Ican't, I can't, I can't.
I can't match their talent (and that's a given).
I can't match their luck (being at the right place at the right time and being noticed by the RIGHT people).
And I probably can't even match their dedication.
In a world where pure competition is the highest value, Addicts and fanatics tend to rule.
Such a world can be rich in progress and achievement for some, but may, in its own way, be quite spiritually poor for everyone else.
In closing, I'll ask this one question:

Were Slocum, Pigeon, Dumas, and Montesuir the best sailors of their day?

I'll bet they weren't.

And maybe that's the BIG part of thier charm.

Bob

[CT 249]

From Mike

"There followed what can only be described as an explosion of commercial sponsorship. The money flowed freely and quickly the boast became high technology beds with hitec autopilots, shore based team support, weather routing, radar collision monitoring ,and tactical team decisions for the "SOLO" sailer ."

Exactly. Great. Fantastic. ;)


Interestingly, the fleets in the big-boat shorthanded races haven't grown, though. Biggest OSTAR was 125 boats, the last was about 25% of that.

So it's great and fantastic to watch, but in terms of keeping a strong sport the technological advances seem to result in little advantage.

I think Bob/Sharpii has it right, personally. Isn't that part of Ellen's appeal, perhaps? As a small women, maybe there's an (incorrect) assumption in the mass mind that if she can do it, anyone could given the guts and gear??? Does she therefore connect better to the rest of the population than if she was 6'3" Viking type of guy? I don't know, but maybe people think that way- IIRC it was supposedly part of the very strong appeal Nigel Mansell had to the British public, the fact that in some ways he was one of them. That was part of Alec Rose's appeal; he was the common man to the sponsored Chichester.
If that's true, the technology, sponsorship and hype may actually be dis-connecting sailors from the public.

And I'm NOT, repeat NOT, saying the "if she can do it so can I" idea is correct in any way. Hell, Ellen did her round Britian sail at what, 17? In a 20' cruiser she found 50 miles inland and bought for a thousand pounds or something like that. True grit.

[gybeset]

Remember a forum is all about venturing an opinion, even starting a debate. I wanted people to consider that she is not the pioneer , just the latest in a long line , and a highly funded, team supported solo circumnav.

I am happy to say again it is still an impressive achievement !

I edited my last post to make clearer my reply to the idiot comment by "gybeset" in the days of Yore children (or close thereto) for example would not have been able to circumnavigate yet now they do so in comparative ease (compared with the days of yore).

Now on with the forum

In Australia we have a number of very capable women sailors who would have sold their souls for the opportunity. It seems large sponsorship deals tend to go elswhere.

If you want a golden record breaker what chance would you have if you were a Pakistani or say an Eritrean sailor ..... zilch
I feel she made the opportunity, from the times of her being 17yo and buying/sailing an old cheap boat in the Round Britain race

[K4s]

I think he is saying that our entire lives are so dominated by money that everywhere we look, the pound, the dollar, the euro, seem to be the determining factor in the out come of EVERYTHING. I solute Ellen and her great accomplishment, but somehow it just does'nt inspire me the way the old pioneers did. Although it is true that yacht racing in the past was just as expensive back when as it is today, few people remember the great yachts men of yore in the way they remember Slocum, Pigeon, Dumas and Montesuir.
Why is that?
I have a theory.
Those four and their accomplishments seemed to imbue me with the 'I can do' spirit, where as Ellen and her peers tend to remind me of an 'expert class' that is unapproachable on its pedestal. Such an 'expert class' now dominates practically EVERY aspect of our lives. It seems that most of us have reached the point of being of being mere watchers rather than doers. Since most of us have no hope of EVER comming near their level of talent, luck, and accomplishment of these 'experts'. Everytime I think of them, the same six words come to mind: Ican't, I can't, I can't.
I can't match their talent (and that's a given).
I can't match their luck (being at the right place at the right time and being noticed by the RIGHT people).
And I probably can't even match their dedication.
In a world where pure competition is the highest value, Addicts and fanatics tend to rule.
Such a world can be rich in progress and achievement for some, but may, in its own way, be quite spiritually poor for everyone else.
In closing, I'll ask this one question:

Were Slocum, Pigeon, Dumas, and Montesuir the best sailors of their day?

I'll bet they weren't.

And maybe that's the BIG part of thier charm.

Bob
Or perhaps it has something to do with the numbers of people who are now attempting this adventure.In the OLDEN days only a few,youve mentioned probably 90% of them even attempted it,now as of TODAY there are approx 100 currently haveing ago.This doesnt include the 100s more who are cruising around and are unheralded to the general public.
Maybe the mere fact that so many(in comparison to times past)are living the adventure is the true reason that the charm is diminished.
k4s

[sharpii2]

On my 02 18 05 post, I never meant to disparage Ellen and her accomplishment.

Now I would like to clarify how I feel about her.

It seems that other than being a world class sailor, perhaps the best in her feild (long distance single handed races), she has at least one other talent. And that is that she appears to be an excellent judge of boats. She seems to choose boats that are very similar to the boats of her competitors so they look like the others. But there are usually notable differences. As far as mast support and rigging goes she seems to be very conservative. She will often pick a modern design but eschew rotating wing masts with deck level spreaders and their like. She will stick a conventional fixed mast and spreader rig in their place. She may go a little slower in the short term but probaly sees that the price to be paid for less worry and headaches down the line. And, by her record, It appears to be worth every 1/2kt paid. In short, she seems to be able to pick the technologies that are most relevent to her goals and least likely to cause her trouble down the line.
I imagine, in the days of Slocum, Pigeon, Dumas, and Montesiur, she would have fit right in.

She probably would have been one of them.

Bob

[K4s]

Disregarding a mishap it looks like the NEW RECORD will be chalked up in around 2 weeks time.
No mater what people think of Peyron,his crew and he are setting an amazingly high bar for the next challengers.
Already around the horn and heading for the finish.Over 2000 nm ahead of both Jules Verne and Abosolute records!
Go ORANGE Go
k4s

[K4s]

Orange2 hits a whale at 25-30 knots,damage to port dagger and rudder,boat not in danger,no leaks.Will have to stop and send a diver under the boat to check the damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope this isnt "the spanner in the works"
Go ORANGE Go
k4s

[brian eiland]

....a few more details courtesy scuttlebutteurope:

ORANGE II HITS A WHALE
Bruno Peyron called Race Headquarters this evening to announce that the
maxi-catamaran Orange II had just had a violent collision with a whale or
an orca whilst making between 25 and 30 knots off the Argentinian coast.
It was between 1700 and 1800 GMT, when the boat hit a big sea creature,
initially with the port daggerboard, then with the rudder. Contacted
shortly after 1900 GMT, Bruno Peyron confirmed this double impact, adding
that the boat was continuing on course downwind. The appendages do not
seem to be broken and all of them will be carefully tested in two days
time, as soon as the weather conditions enable the boat to be brought to a
stand still and a diver to be sent under the hull.

Contacted by telephone at 1935 GMT this evening, the skipper of Orange II
had the latest information on the incident: "The two successive impacts
were fairly severe. The first one involved the port daggerboard, then
just after a second impact with the rudder. The boat is not in danger.
There doesn't seem to be any leakage, but from the outside, you can see
that some bits of material have come away. There is a vibration coming
from the port rudder and for the time being we have the wind on the aft
quarter to keep the boat flat and not put pressure on the appendages.
We're going to have to slow down and then bring the boat to a stand still
as soon as we can, doubtless within the next 2 days, so as we can send one
of the crew down to inspect under the hull.

Aboard Orange II, the debate is on as to what decisions to make and when?
Bruno Peyron: "Remove and repair the rudder? ... possible but how will we
get it back on? Finish the record attempt with a single rudder? ...
possible but at a reduced pace! It's a shame that it's the port rudder
which was hit as 3/4 of the round the world is on port tack (with the
starboard rudder being more important than the other)... and the final
quarter of our voyage must be raced on starboard tack, that means with the
port rudder! ... "

http://www.catamaran-orange.com

[yipster]

and another around alone flyer is up and away http://www.globalflyer.com/MissionControl/Tracking/index.jsp http://www.globalflyer.com/images/the_route_main_tcm206-4077.gif


i'll say geronimo

[boby boy]

shes great

[yipster]

with geronimo and chyenne out hitting debree from the recent tsunami its orange winning the vendee globe also breaking the jules verne record. vendee globe sails again in 2008.

[Doug Lord]

You mean Orange is about to win the Jules Verne. The Vendee just ended-mono's only.
And the other multis were racing the "Oryz Quest and I think but I'm not positive that "Doha" and maybe one other boat are still in that race around the world..

[yipster]

yes, orange II speeds towards ushant and will finish tonight......
and steve fossett's cheyenne dismasted off the argentinian coast, sorry!

[K4s]

NEW RECORD.........BIG CHALLENGE BEEN SET.........Who's going after it i wonder

[Robert Miller]

This is a letter I wrote to Nick after I learned of his keel falling off, and his (thankfully) safe return to shore, and read Nick's comments in the Skandia newsletter that he needed a "new dream".

All of that caused me to think about the present state of yacht design and the high-tech, high-money, way ocean voyaging, racing, and record-setting are approached these days.

I know that there are many who will not agree, and I, for one, admire Nick and Ellen very much for their accomplishments. I cannot, however, avoid thinking that something has been lost since boats were required to be seaworthy, or seaworthy boats were the only choice an ocean voyager or racer would think to make. There were no shore teams making weather and other technical decisions. Self-sufficiency and resourcefulness were the tools of the sailor. Something has been lost.

Please do not misunderstand. I take nothing away from Ellen and Nick, and I followed them both very closely. But, if you think about it, is their accomplishment quite as inspiring as for example: those of the Hiscocks, Pardeys, Bernard Moitesssier, etc? ... and many others whose names we'll never hear.

I suggest a return to seaworthy boats, that belong at sea, and ocean races that depend completely on the self-sufficiency of the sailor and good wholesome design of the boat.

Keels don't fall off good boats.

What follows is a copy of my letter, and a reply from Helen King:

"Thanks Robert

I have passed on to all who may be interested, we shall see what happens *

Kind regards
*
Helen
hk@offshorechallenges.com"


> Dear friends:
>
> "We need to find our way again, we need another project, we need to
> dream."
>
> I was much struck by this line in the letter from Nick in the Skandia
> newsletter that arrived today.
>
> I was much inspired by Nick's journey, and followed things especially
> closely after the keel fell off. *Problem-solving, and resourcefulness,
> are the way of the sea. I am thankful that the ending is a happy one in
> this case.
>
> I followed Ellen with equal enthusiasm, and looked forward to her daily
> updates. *I must say she was a significant inspiration to my children
> and wife as well.
>
> Extraordinary people do extraordinary things.
>
> I have a bunch of thoughts regarding these boats, and races, and Nick's
> experiences. *While I am much impressed with the personal abilities of
> people like Nick and Ellen, I am definitely very concerned about the
> dependence on technology employed by both.
>
> Pure and simple, keels should not fall off boats.
>
> That it did, only speaks to the nonsense that yacht design has
> become... among the few.
>
> Additionally.... teams ashore, making the decisions regarding weather,
> and all things technical, flies in the face of the self sufficiency
> developed by most of those who choose to go to sea.
>
> As we speak, a very large number of people are sailing the world's
> oceans, many with children, most will never face a terrible emergency
> or failure. *Wasn't it Eric Hiscock who pointed out that if a voyage
> was uneventful, than it was a successful one? *The gods of the sea run
> for cover in the face of extreme designs like Open 60's. *(I would call
> them poor and unseaworthy designs.)
>
> Nick is looking for "the next dream"? I suggest the following. *Bring
> the dream home... for the many. *Build a wholesome boat, strong enough
> to keep its keel, deep enough to not broach in following heavy seas,
> simple rig to single hand and reef (so sail area can be large). Easy to
> heave-to in extreme conditions. *To hell with racing design rules that
> result in such extreme boats that their keels fall off. *How about a
> real boat? *Now that would be refreshing. *And that would be inspiring.
> And that might just begin a trend back toward sailboats that are
> actually seaworthy.
>
> And then... *sail this boat around the world. *Be completely
> self-sufficient. *Have a recording barometer, and thermometer for
> tracking currents, and a good log... and make your own weather
> decisions. And while we're at it, we could do away with GPS, if we
> wished, and use celestial... (this last recommendation is something
> that needs consideration).
>
> Imagine a fully self-sufficient circumnavigation (no "shore team"), in
> a truly seaworthy boat *(one that actually belongs at sea), that is
> uneventful in all respects. *UNEVENTFUL. *A true seaman carries out
> voyages that are uneventful. *Remember? **Or is that really
> disappearing?
>
> But with Nick's obvious seamanship, do it faster and better than anyone
> else. *And, I assure you, that accomplishment will be of far greater
> inspiration to the many than the stuff going on now. *It will inspire
> others to learn and to sail the oceans.... uneventfully, and well! *And
> will capture the interest and imagination of all of us.
>
> Now that would be a challenge worth taking on, don't you think? *Like
> Nick said, "we need to dream".
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Thoughtfully, and with best regards,
> Robert E. Miller
> millersail@cox.net
>

[D'ARTOIS]

Robert, actually I agree fully with what you wrote. However we do not live anymore in the Bernard Moitessier era - that's over and final. Nonetheless the reputation of Slocum, Moitessier, Gerbault, Juan Baader et. al remained unspoiled along all those years and I firmly believe that all of us like their adventures from the past.

In a year or so, another one is going to brake Ellen Mc Arthur's record and in a few years time her name will be forgotten just like Clare Francis' and Isabelle Autissier, the French girl that had to be saved by the Australian Navy and: No thanks to the Australian Government issueing a frigate to rescue her from her helter-skelter.

In that respect Robert, you are right. Moitessier was not "sponsored" - he did what he did in his own capacities.

No individual - save for the extremely riches - can go for a world record on own behalf.

And that makes the recordbrakers in fact unsignificant because some company with a bit more money on the balance can make it possible for any accomplished sailor to go for another record.

The kitchen manufacturer had a few days of glory - (not their clients)
Miss Mc Arthur even so.

In a year or so, another recordbraker comes.......and everything about the
effort of Miss Mc Arthur is forgotten.

Lot's of money through the drain that had better been used to improve the company's overall efforts.

No, Moitessier will not be forgotten......

[dionysis]

"Wholesome and seaworthy" designs will not get you around the world in 80 days. They may get you around 80 times though.

[brian eiland]

...courtesy of Scuttlebutt...

COMMENTARY
(In Scuttlebutt 1798 we carried an excerpt from commentary by Andy Green
published on The Daily Sail subscription website. In that piece, Green
discussed Ellen MacArthur's impact on sailing as well as the media returns
of Oryx Quest 2005. In the following response, Oryx Quest 2005 Race
Organizer Tracy Edwards takes exception to some of Andy views.)

Qatar is ecstatic with the massive coverage they have received for the
event in their key target markets of Middle East, Asia, the Far East and
the USA. The UK is not a target market for Qatar. It is important for me
obviously because although I do not live there at present it is still
ultimately my home and the home of many people who would have really
enjoyed it if the British Sailing press had used the information that we
made available to them and written more about the event.

I think it is sad that they chose instead to concentrate on the fact that I
had to borrow money to get the Oryx Quest up and running and the fact that
I have stared personal ruination in the face on a number of occasions to
bring to the sailing world what we believe is a great opportunity to open
up the 'arena' and therefore the sponsorship market for big boat offshore
sailing.

Ellen has done a fantastic job and is the absolute heroine of my five year
old daughter who thinks he mother "looks a lot older" works too hard, is
permanently tired and doesn't "bounce around the netting like Ellen does"!
She spends as much time looking at Ellen's website as the Quest website and
as I think that Ellen is a great role model I have encouraged this
absolutely! (Let's keep the boy bands at bay for as long as possible!)
However, this is not a competition on who gets more press and I am sure
that Ellen would agree with me on this.

Fame and fortune is not what drives me or Ellen or in fact most ocean
racers. What we do is try and make the impossible dream happen, to achieve
something in the sport we live for. When we succeed it helps to make
sailing available to a wider audience and we hope it encourages the next
generation of sailors in all countries across the globe. This includes my
daughter who tells me that she is going to sail around the world single
handed when she is old enough. Ten yrs old she informs me!

As we near the end of the Oryx Quest 2005 I hope that the winner (who will
obviously be British) will be feted in their achievement in the UK and
people will realize that the fact that two boats didn't make it all the way
round the globe is a testament to all those "Who go down to the sea in
boats."

Tracy Edwards MBE

[brian eiland]

BE: Lets hope they give a little more time for the participants to get organized properly this time!!
________________________
THE NEXT BIG EVENT
According to the race organizers, entries have flooded in for the next
sailing event in the Quest calendar, which has now been confirmed to take place in September 2007. Billed as a staged world circumnavigation race, with stopovers in key locations, the event has already generated huge international interest. Race headquarters has been inundated with enquiries from yacht owners and crewmembers alike, suggesting that the race is likely to be open to mono as well as multi hull yachts to cater for the levels of interest.

The other skippers in the current Oryx Quest 2005 will certainly be meeting again in 2007. Olivier de Kersauson, skipper of Geronimo (which was forced to retire from Oryx Quest 2005 in the early stages) is particularly eager to compete again. Steve Fossett, whose yacht Cheyenne was also forced to withdraw from Oryx Quest 2005 following her tragic dismasting just east of Argentina, also feels his boat has some unfinished business. "Cheyenne is on the market now and we hope that she will be bought by a team committed to the Quest Series." Daedalus, also expects to be involved in 2007 with a new owner. Tony Bullimore has begun discussions with interested parties in the Middle East regarding its purchase.

Tracy Edwards has begun putting together Team Qatar, which will represent the Gulf State in the race and be headed by HE Sheikh Hassan Bin Jabor Al Thani, Chairman of the Qatar Marine Sports Federation (QMSF), who partnered the Quest team in facilitating Oryx Quest 2005. Team Qatar is currently in discussion with French naval architect, Gilles Ollier, who met with His Excellency in February to discuss plans for a new boat. The obvious favorite to skipper Team Qatar and lead the Qatari crew to victory is Brian Thompson.
<www.qisel.com>

BE: Oh! and have you heard about Disney's (yes, as in mouse) sponsoring one of the new Volvo racers as a promo for their next "Pirates of the Caribbean" movie. Pretty exciting actually.

[JimCooper]

"Wholesome and seaworthy" designs will not get you around the world in 80 days. They may get you around 80 times though.


Agree absolutely Dionysis I also like the points raised about the solo sailors actually being the driver for a team.


I just sailed the Caribbean and looked at the hurricane wrecks littering the shores on some of the islands, boats such as modern Benetaus broken in half and utterly shattered from groundings while heavier built vessels survived the same groundings and were pulled off without damage.

These record breakers are light by necessity of speed and unseaworthy by the same requirement.

IMHO (in my huble opinion)
Jim

[Vega]

Yes, BIG little woman, no doubt about that.

Talking about records, what do you think of this one?

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/bruno_peyron_orange_II_catamaran.htm

Seven days is also a BIG difference.

"Bruno Peyron is today the record holder of the greatest number of miles covered in a maxi-catamaran (295,000 miles). He has beaten the 24 hour record on four occasions (1982 / 1995 / 2000/ 2004).
He is the only skipper to have covered more than 700 miles in 24 h, and since last summer, has been the holder of the Mediterranean crossing record."

[lazeyjack]

nope, do not agree on all you said, its a great deal harder climbing a 100 foot stick than a 40 foot one
Also life in a beast such as hers is like driving a formula one car on a greasy track, and you need all the help you can get as things happen fast
Driving(helming)an old crapper 6 knot boat is like watching grass grow, I like somewhere inbetwixt
My heroine will always be Isabelle,

[lazeyjack]

sorry all that was in reply to an old post, questioning EM achievement

[Stuart Dodd]

I think you also need to take account of the whole story. Its all very fine saying she sailed around the world with loads of support and that made it easier (I strongly disagree.. she was making the calls and taking the risks in a boat pressed to the limits), the rest of the story of how she made it to the start of the Vendee, determination, living in a freight container, hundreds of rejections before convincing a company to sponsor her - that's the whole story.