Any good wooden CC Corinthian resources?

[salimbag]

Yup, I'm doing it. Jumping into a 1967 Corinthian as a fun(?) and rewarding (?) project. Actually, the boat is in reasonably good shape. The survey revealed a wealth of minor problems (belts, hoses, clamps, detectors, etc.) but nothing major, so we'll keep our fingers crossed.

I'm writing because despite lurking in libraries and cruising the web I am finding very few resources about this boat. I have managed to scrounge manuals for the engines (427 Ford gas), transmission (I think it's the right one), and most accessories. Was there something akin to an operator's manual for this boat? Is there anything out there, a manual or book, that relates more to the structure of this specific boat? For example, things like removing the headliner, messing with the control console, linkages, etc?

I will be refinishing the hull, and fortunately am finding what I think are good resources out here. Sand, treat with penetrating epoxy sealer, caulk with 3M 4200/5200, paint. (I have been corresponding with the Rotdoctor, besides numerous other resources. I also just ordered Jim Trefethen's book.)

So to boil it down any general advice would be appreciated, but the specific question is are there any books or manuals specifically addressing the Corinthian? I see Commander and Roamer support groups and books galore, and occasional Constellation goodies, but little out there for the lowly Corinthian. Any help?

I found this on the web, liked it, just in case we need a dose of humility:
"Now a 30 year old 40+ foot long wooden boat with two finicky gas motors is a cantankerous contraption that will defy nature and science to remain broken down and in the dock. They have a mind of their own. If they don’t want to run, don’t make them. By their very nature, the boat wants to sink, the engines want to break down and the gas tank wants to explode. Things like electrolysis actually dissolve metal, anything steel rusts, wood rots. Top it all off, the seagulls steal anything shiny, and crap on anything flat. There is an infinite number of variables at play, and they all work against you."

Glad I could cheer up your day!

[gonzo]

The one modification that will save you money, time and agravation is to convert to electronic ignition. It is a bolt on swap for the points and condenser.

[salimbag]

Thanks. This is something I had have seen fleeting references to and planned to look into. I have been active in experimental airplanes and remember similar conversions that people made to the VW-based aeronautical engines, and they were pretty simple - swap out the distributor and bold on the ignition module. Do you know of any sources for parts or instruction for EG conversion for the 427 Fords?

Thanks!

[Kyle]

Salimbag,

You might try searching e-bay under chris craft. There is always an engine manual for 427f's and sales lit. on your model. It doesn't happen weekly but I've seen them there on occasion. Hundley chris craft out of Dallas, Tx. may also have some parts that you might need. He parts out alot of 60's model cc cruisers. Kind of high priced, but if ya gotta have it. One last place is the Mariners museum. Chris Craft donated all of there archives to the museum.
Good Luck.
Kyle

[WoodButcher]

I am afraid that I have to disagree on the subject of replacing
"points and condensers" with electronic ignition.

I rarely mess with inboard engines, but have a whole bunch
of experience with older outboards; personally, I would
NEVER convert any of my (about 150 total) outboard
engines to electronic ignition.

Points and condenser ignition systems are easy to
diagnose and repair, cheap to buy parts for, and
reliable in that failures generally occur slowly, providing
plenty of warning (through poor running) that
a problem is occuring.

Electronic ignition, on the other hand, is easy to
damage, expensive to buy replacement parts for, and
prone to fail all at once with no warning. The last time
I had to be "towed-in" (1980) was due to an electronic
ignition failure. True, this was an early version but later
versions suffer the same failure mode; i.e. one second the
engine runs, the next second it does not.

Plus, the conversion does not elimanate ALL the parts of
the ignition system that may fail; the coil for example.
Or wiring, which is the cause of many "failures."

I suppose the argument can be made that electronic ignition
gives one a slightly more efficient engine, but the difference
between electronic ignition and a well-tuned "points and condenser"
system is not that great.

Here is a "good read" on the benefits of simplicity when
talking about engines operating in the marine environment:

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasEngines.htm

[salimbag]

Thanks for this. I'll keep reading. Part of the fun is this is learning all this, reviewing the various opinions.

I'll be working overseas for awhile, so probably won't get a chance to experiment with any of this for few months, but I'll keep you posted.

[salimbag]

Oh, believe me, I've searched and searched. I did find the 427 manuals you referred to, as well as manuals for the transmission (I think it's the right one). I'm looking for something more specific to the boat itself - bulkhead panels, electrical systems, headliner, plumbing, routing of control cables, etc. Was there ever a shop or repair manual or even an owner's manual to aid in such work? The tangle of cables and wires crammed in the control duct is a pretty intimidating mess. I know that with patience and time I could decode it all, but a manual of some sort would sure help!

[gonzo]

Woodbutcher: electronic ignition is more reliable than points and condenser. It has a much lesser failure rate and longer durability. For example, 100 hrs is the recomended service life for points. Electronic components don't need servicing. As for troubleshooting, it is easier too. All you need is a multimeter. Other advantages are more precise timing that doesn't get out of adjustment with wear. Less warranty claims show that electronics are more durable and reliable too.

[WoodButcher]

I respect your opinion, but the engine that I currently
have mounted on my 1957 Crestliner is a 1940
Johnson PO-15 that, at far as I can tell, is
running on it's origninal set of points.

I did replace the condenser (opposed-twin
cylinder engine with one set of points & one
condenser) but that was not to correct a
problem, but rather to experiment with
matching-up the microfarad capacity of modern
condensers with the old square-shaped condenser
that was original equipement to the engine. The
motor was still running on the old condenser.

For the same reason, there is a float in the carb
made from a bottle-stopper cork; I like to
experiment.

I have dozens of these old engines. For example,
the 1950's OMC engines (main & auxilary) that
I run on my "main" boat have points & condensers
that cost me about nine bucks for an "engine set,"
so I have been replacing them every few years.
But I have other 1950's era outboards that, as
far as I can determine, still have and still run on their
original factory-installed P's and C's,

Some electronic ignition can be trouble-shot with
a multi-meter, and some can not; depends upon
the system.

Even dealers have trouble "figureing-out" electronic
ignition; I have seen repair invoices for outboards
with multiple "black-boxes" replaced. I guess that I
am supposed to beleive that it all "crapped-out" at
the same time.

Two examples below; both engines reported "no spark:"

Example A; early-'90s 40 hp Mercury. Got a new stator
and a new switch-box. Invoice over $600.00 parts
and labor. Certified Mercury dealer.

Example B; 1962 40 hp Evinrude; Cost of new points,
condensers, plug wires, plugs, coils (if cracked) total
about $80.00 (retail) for parts, plus about 1 to 1 1/2 hour of
do-it-yourself labor. Work done by me (not certified
by OMC, but probably "certifiable.")

One would have a very hard time convincing me that
electronic ignition is worth mounting on an engine that
originally did not have it.

[PAR]

Do you (WoodButcher) honestly think that every, yes, every engine manufacture would change out a reliable (as you call it) system for the less reliable (as you call it) electronic package? I've had more trouble with burned points and spent condensers then any electronic ignition system. Gonzo has much more experience in his authorized service centers, then I, but clearly the facts are quite simple to read.

Maybe you've had great success with your conventional ignitions, but no manufacture is cutting costs by reverting back to them. After the billions that get spent on research and development are proven out in the dramatic drop in warranty claims and repair reports, your argument doesn't hold a spark. This says nothing of the advantage of integrating the electronic ignition with a fuel delivery, timing, shifting and host of other packages to further increase the level of reliably and durably.

The best thing you can do for the standard ignition is toss the contents under the cap and load up an electronic package, replace the coil, wires and plugs while you're there and forget about it for the next 1000+ hours.

[WoodButcher]

Mr. PAR;


"The best thing you can do for the standard ignition is toss the contents under the cap and load up an electronic package, replace the coil, wires and plugs while you're there and forget about it for the next 1000+ hours."




Do you really think that 38-year-old gasoline engines
have another 1000+ hours of life left in them?

And a lot of the parts you are changing in the above
quote are not related to the elctronic "package;"
i.e. you would have to change them anyway.


The existing ignition system worked fine for the
first 38 years of these engines' existence. With
a good "tune-up," the original system will probably
last as long as the engines will last. Merely replace
all the parts that you mentioned replacing (plus
the cap) and substitute new points, condenser,
and rotor for the much more expensive "electronic
package."

There will be plenty of other opportunities to expend
cash on the boat in question; save the cash for these
other "projects.".

You gentlemen are entitled to your opinions
and I am always happy to engage in discourse on
subjects of varying content, but in the interest of
avoiding boring the readers I will let matters stand
that I will never convince you to just leave these
old engines alone, and you will never convince me
to install expensive "high-tech" electronics on engines
that worked fine for 38 years without them and that
maybe have only a limited amount of life left
in them.

[salimbag]

Here's a good one: Is there any advantage in fuel efficiency with either standard or electronic ignition? (I can't imagine there is.) But now that I've made this elegant segue, what CAN be done to help efficiency? Other forums have mentioned more modern carbs that can be leaned way out. Any word on that or other ideas?

Back to my original post: Any good resources about the construction and maintanece of this boat?

[WoodButcher]

A retrofitted electronic ignition system will have
a SLIGHT advantage in fuel burn over standard
ignition in those old engines.

In my opinion, keeping your existing ignition and
carbs in good "tune" will provide the most
"cost-effective" boost in efficiency; i.e
the most "bang for your buck.".

But, no matter what you do, a 38 foot planing
boat with (2) 1960's technology big-block 300 hp
engines is never going to qualify as an "economy"
boat when it comes to fuel consumption.

If you really want to save fuel, repower with a
pair of new small-blocks with fuel injection and
electronic ignition and a warranty.

Of course, that will cost a lot more money "up-front"
than running what you have already bought, assuming
what you have already bought has some life left.

Considering that most pleasure boats are actually
run very little, I personally think that fuel costs
will be a minor portion of the total expense associated
with this boat.

[gonzo]

You make some good points. The reasons for better fuel economy are higher spark voltage, less current which makes plugs last longer and timing doesn't change.

[WoodButcher]

By the way, I am assuming that this
is the boat @ Willie's Hidden Harbor.

[Richard Petersen]

Salimbag, why are you running this same subject on POWER PROPULSION ??

[Richard Petersen]

See---www.marinersmuseum.org-------have your boat or hull number ready for CC information. :)

[salimbag]

By the way, I am assuming that this
is the boat @ Willie's Hidden Harbor.

That's the one. There was a survey done about two years ago that put it in pretty good shape, and I think it's been on the hard since, although the marina folks tell me it was in the water last year, which frankly I don't buy. Aside from a small hole in the hull (is this a bad thing on a boat?) behind a damaged splash rail, things seem to be in pretty good shape. The survey lists pages of recommendations, of course. Nothing too scary, just a lot of worn belts and hoses and clamps and the like, some small spots of dry rot around the windows. And it is being left uncovered this winter! Of course, the hull will need to be refinished before it's put back in the water. As to the winterization performed on the boat, I have only the marina's word. I'm generally a trusting guy, which may not be a good idea in a boat purchase.

All in all thje project will be a lot of work, but compared to the half dozen other boats of this type/vintage I've looked at it's very clean. Still, I think Willie's claim that it's in "Great Shape" is being a little charitable.

I placed my original post with a little too much enthusiasm when I said I was "jumping into the project." I should have written that I have every intention of jumping into it if I can work out the numerous details associated with the sale. There's another boat I am interested in in Duluth, but if I can work it out this CC is currently my first choice.

I see you're a midwesterner. Do you know the boat, or did you just see it on the web?

[salimbag]

Salimbag, why are you running this same subject on POWER PROPULSION ??

Is this a problem? I suspect "powerboats propulsion" and "wooden boat restoration" would each have potentially different readerships, each of whom might be able to help me. And even though neither could (so far) answer my original questions, each thread nonetheless took off in its own direction, each providing unique and valuable information, for which I am thankful.

I also thank YOU for your suggestion regarding Mariners Museum. I had been to the site before but somehow didn't quite "get it." I'll fill out their form now!

[WoodButcher]

Others have occasionaly taken issue with some of my postings,
but I would wager that they will take not issue with this statement:

This boat is going to eat you alive.

This boat will chew you up and swallow your money
and spit-out your bones.

I have not seen this particular boat, but I have seen this
particular story many times: Enthusiastic Guy (E.G.) finds
Huge Decrepit Old Boat (H.D.O.B) in back-row of marina storage
lot that can be bought "cheap." E.G can picture himself cruising
up and down the Mississippi River in freshly-painted H.D.O.B. in
a mere 6 months. That's the "vision."

The "reality" is that, in 2 or 3 years, E.G. has morphed into
B.F.E.G (Broke Formerly Enthusiastic Guy) and is looking to either:
1) Locate a fresh E.G. to take this pig (still on blocks in the
back row) off his hands, or 2) has turned-it over to the marina
for unpaid storage. And the marina owner has a call into his
lawyer to talk about wage garnishment for unpaid storage.

You seem to be relying heavily upon the photo-copy of this 2-year-
old survey that you have. Well, a lot can happen to a wood boat in
two years, plus you have no idea whether this surveyor was any
"good" or not, plus assuming he was "good," you don't know if he
was paid enough money to make it worth his time to do a "good'
survey.

Best thing you can do with this 2-year-old survey is to fold
it up into a paper boat; it will most likely be a more "seaworthy"
boat than the Corinthian is.

Since you have apprently not actually bought this boat yet, the
smartest thing you could do would be to walk away from it without
looking back.

The second smartest thing would be to find a surveyor with
extensive experience with wood boats, and pay him $600.00 to
$800.00 to do a thorough survey on this pile of C.C.C.W. (Chris-Craft
Cord Wood.)

If you are the least bit concerned about writing a check for $600.00
to $800.00 for a really thorough survey, then that is a very good
sign to stay away from an old wooden boat of this size and complexity,
as writing checks of $600.00 to $800.00 frequently is a prerequisite
of ownership.

If you have to have a wooden boat "project," find an old Chris-Craft/
Trojan/Owens or similar single-screw 25 or 26 footer, pay someone
to haul it to your house, so you can work on it any time you have
a spare hour or two (with no yard sotorage fees) , and don't
plan on havng it in the water for at
least two years.

That's my opinion.

And I always have one.

[Richard Petersen]

WoodButcher is 99 % correct. You have a better chance of becoming the president of the USA. It is that bad of a endless repair job. Know when to say NO objectivly and LOGICLY. You can do a lot better. I still look at big old boats. We all do.

[salimbag]

Oh, I have no objections to your post. Well, a modest objection, and that objection is that "Enthusiastic guy" does not necessarily equal idiot:

I have seen the boat. I have been on it a dozen times. I have crawled all over it inside and out. I have unscrewed access panels I could barely squeeze through and dove into every corner of the hull with a headlamp and a digital camera, crawling on my belly like a spelunker. I have modest knowledge of wooden boats, but moreover I have a cousin in Long Beach CA who sells yachts, and would rate as a foremost expert - a REAL expert. He regularly buys and sells wooden boats for his own use, preferring them, (he just picked up a 40-year old 29' wooden sailboat for $4000 that he is personally restoring), and he is involved in the decision making. I have purchased every book I can find on pertinent issues, corresponded extensively with dozens (West Epoxy and the Rot Doctor are sick and tired of hearing from me) about what this might take. I have dragged poor unsuspecting souls who have some knowledge of boats to come check it out, and am hounding people on forums like this.

I may have been misleading in that I may have made it sound like the purchase was a "done deal," I didn't think that revealing precisely where I was in the buying process was that important in this quest for information. Let's call it an "almost done deal." Notice I am buying all the manuals and information for the boat NOW before the purchase, and will have another survery done (This is for insurance. I'm content with my cousin's opinion for purchase). I am spending hundreds on the decision-making process before I buy. I'm OK with that because even if the deal doesn't go through I am having tons of fun learning all this.

Boats like this are a "bargain" because they do require a lot of work (I have no intention of paying anything near the asking price). I can do most of the work myself, which I enjoy (hard to believe), fully expecting to substitute my time (and that of my poor unwitting brother in law) for money. I fully acknowledge that there's a chance that your predicitions of disaster will pan out. All I can do is to take every precaution in hopes that it doesn't, and be willing to accept my fate if I am wrong and you are right. Such risks are inherent in any "good deal." But I bet I'll persevere.

So, let's see what we have: Cynical Presumptuous Old Fart (C.P.O.F) condescends to Middle-Aged Conscientious Cautious Potential Boat Buyer Who Although He Has Modest Experience With Boats Has Undertaken Numerous Other Ambitious High-Knowledge Projects Like Experimental Aircraft and Home Construction (M.A.C.C.P.B.B.W.A.H.H.M.W.Q.B.H.U.N.O.A.H.K.P.L.E.A.H.C.), trying to discourage him from what could very well be a disastrous enterprise. And C.P.O.F. is right to do so. But I think those people who have objected to C.P.O.F.'s posts in the past might prefer if he first questioned whether they were approaching the deal smartly rather than assuming they weren't.

The reality? We don't know. Who knows where (M.A.C.C.P.B.B.W.A.H.H.M.W.Q.B.H.U.N.O.A.H.K.P.L.E.A.H.C.) will morph. But if a year from now he does morph into a happy (although probably nonetheless exhausted and broke) boat owner C.P.O.F owes him a beer.

[Richard Petersen]

Let me stick my neck out, with your money. If you find a big old boat RUNNING and LOOKING GOOD in the water, that is JUST old. And then passes a tough, close and detailed inspection that will cost less than 1/3 of your honest maximum funds. BUY IT NOW. ------------Is that a reasonable deal guys? :)

[salimbag]

Thanks. This is all good fuel. Incidentally, hello. I'm writing this this from Rutgers.

[Richard Petersen]

Jersey burned up most of it's marine fire wood years ago. You can look at our other boats a lot closer. :)

[pungolee]

When an electronic ignition equipped outboard goes bad,it dies,right there,right quick.There is nothing the operator can do at sea unless he carries spare modules.When a point system acts up,the operator can do a dozen things to get the thing running again to get back home.This applies to older outboards that came with conventional point systems.It also applies to older inboards of any ilk.Would I change my new Yamaha to points?No.Would I change my 1955 Johnson 25 to electronic?No.

[Richard Petersen]

I agree totaly. Carry a spare Thunderbolt distributor and coil. That is my quick fix. Fuel-- I still need a spare 2002 Merc. 2 bbl carb. :)

[gonzo]

An outboard and an inboard systems are very different. I'd like to see you take the flywheel of an outboard at sea to change the points. I continously hear opinions against electronics from people totally ignorant of them. Electronic technicians will use modern technology unless they are restoring something for sentimental reasons.

[Richard Petersen]

I have never had to replace the points or condenser or coil of any outboard motor . It was always fouled plugs and bad adjustments due to old gas in leaky gas tanks-condensation build up. 2 strokes are much more reliable than 4 strokes. Reason the OB'S have so few problems, is so few parts. Reed and petal valves outlast any OHV valve train, 10,000 to 1. Cork floats sink. Thats in motors +20 years old. Thats it for keeping it running, unless the person takes it apart. If your on a deserted island with a old OB. Guy on the other side is fixing his new 2005 computer OB. Who is leaving and who is staying?

[gonzo]

Richard: if what you claim is true, outboard parts manufacturers would be out of business. Maybe the guy with electronic ignition wouldn't be stranded in a desert island to start with. If I remember correctly Gilligan had points and condenser.

[Richard Petersen]

If we had a $50 bill for every part that is changed needlessly and charged to the customer, we would be on a private yacht living the good life. Everybody has a learning curve. Some never get off the curve. :)

[gonzo]

Richard I agree with you on that. I don't charge my customers if I change a part and it doesn't solve the problem. Of course sometimes there are related problems. For example, you can make an engine start to find out the risers are corroded through.

[Richard Petersen]

You would loooove Florida. Risers rust out fast, tied to a dock year round. $$$$$$ :) :) My brother in law had his almost sink tied up. Party boat.

[WoodButcher]

"... I'd like to see you take the flywheel of an outboard at sea to change the points. I continously hear opinions against electronics from people totally ignorant of them.."




I have pulled outboard flywheels on the water, and yes
I carry a puller.

Have also changed a pump impeller (and yes I had the
spare impeller)

You are entitled to your opinion, but the last time I did not
return "to the dock" powered by the same outboard motor that
took me out was back in 1979 and it was due to electronic
ignition.

I may be ornery but I sure aint' ignorant.

[gonzo]

Lets get back to helping Salimbag

[WoodButcher]

Lets get back to helping Salimbag
__________________
Gonzo






You diverted this thread to ignition systems,
and you set the tone, my friend.


As for Salimbag, the best advice I
can give him is what I already have;
walk away from this project and find
something much more modest to start
with.

[lprimina]

Salimbag, Here is an example of a beautiful old boat that needed minor repairs.
A friend of mine bought an old wooden boat (24 ft) that needed minor repairs(beautiful lines). Well at the same time I started building my first boat (28ft) I finnished before him and spent less money.
But good luck with what ever you deside to do.
Now with the word war going on. I have been reading Gonzo's posts for a while now and 99% of the time when I have disagreed with what he has stated I ended up wrong. He has been in the business for a while and I havent seen him give bad advice yet.
Ben

[salimbag]

Salimbag, Here is an example of a beautiful old boat that needed minor repairs. A friend of mine bought an old wooden boat (24 ft) that needed minor repairs(beautiful lines). Well at the same time I started building my first boat (28ft) I finnished before him and spent less money.
But good luck with what ever you deside to do. Ben

Sorry I haven't been on board the forum for a bit; eveything's on hold as I'm working out of the country for a spell, and internet cafes are difficult to find here.

Anyway, Bill, thanks for this. This message is not directed at you, just at the forum in general.

I SELECTED this boat because I BELIEVE, after extensive research and examination, that the boat needs "minor" repairs. Isn't that the approach I should use? That said, my HOPE is that MINOR repairs means, say, months of dedicated work and five, say ten thousand dollars (considering that virutally all the labor is free). More than that, and I'll be disappointed, but it won't kill me. I have a shed to work in and time to dedicate.

Some people like projects; don't discount that. Remember my cousin, the yacht broker in Long Beach whom I mentioned purchased a beat up old wooden sailboat to refurbish? He's a YACHT BROKER; he has a marina with dozens of the best boats manufactured that he can sail anywhere anytime. So why does he have a hopeless beater in pieces in his garage?

Again, this is not directed at you, Ben, but I think it's unfortunate that my time on this forum has been spent for the most part defending myself.

I hope to put the whole project on a website so naysayers et al can chart my progress.

Thanks to all, I have gotten some good stuff here.

[428]

What decisions did you make on the Corinthian?
I notice it's still at Willie's.
Nice original that needs some work. Looks like it would be a great inland lake or weekender boat. Don't think I'd want to Loop cruise in it though.

For all interested, here is the link to said vessel. I was inquiring into it as well but having it delivered to my area added to much cost. Over 5K in trucking fees.

http://www.boattraderonline.com/addetail.html?75117843

The boat really is in decent shape. It has some cosmetic issues inside and roof, window and seam leakage has caused water damage on some of the interior wood.
I was thinking of about a two year restoration for an inland lake boat. I was also thinking of removing the huge fuel tanks for much smaller formed poly tanks for space. No need for 300 gallons of fuel on our lake, it would spoil or the tanks would condensate before being used. Comments?

The Ford 427's are of concern due to lack of available parts but for a lake cruiser and weekender it would have very intermittent duty anyway.
There is another for sale in this area, 38 footer with Chevy 283's, much more practical for puttering around a lake and engine parts are more available. But the price is more than double.
I have to agree that I don't see a reason to switch ignitions. The carbs would probably be fine but personally I'd overhaul both engines. The generator looked questionable and the wiring defintely needs an upgrade and get rid of those fire starting room heaters, but the hull work needed was my major concern. I'm sure she'll leak like a seve as she's been out since '03 and in a severe freeze thaw climate.

From what I've seen of this boat there is no way I'd do anything less than a complete resto, even if you do most work figure at least 15K and two years. 6 months to a year might get her back functional but not where I'd want her to be. All depends on how much time you have.
She'd be a beaut, and would turn heads but high maintainence, kinda like other beaut's that turn heads.