Aluminium Keel Ballast

[Wynand N]

Hi everyone :)

Because of aluminium's low smelting point of 592 degrees C, compared to steel smelting point of 1427 degrees C, is it safe or possible to pour molten lead ballast directly into the aluminium keel box?

[Dutch Peter]

Yes, it can be done .
Pooring lead in alu keels is done in a very controlled manner. And not only the melting point of the alu is the problem, but also the stresses in the keel caused by the heat, these will deform the keel resulting in problems with the straightness.
Pooring is done with the outer surface being constantly cooled with water. A shower system is prefered over a bath as in a bath air bubles form on the keel surface as water starts to boil and this prevents the surface being cooled.
There are several companies in Holland doing this regularly, but I don't think they'll be willing to disclose their working methodes.

[gonzo]

You can also make lead ingots of the approximate shape of the keel and set them in resin or other adhesive.

[Wynand N]

Hi Dutch Peter :)

Thank you for your opinion. What you say rings true, but, Alu has a further disadvantage, it can burn....

Imagine pouring molten lead ballast into you alu keel and, phoof, the goes your labour of love up in smoke if you do not take extreme care. Yip. this is an extreme scenario, but then again, I am born on Friday 13th.

Maar dit is goeie raad wat jy gegee het. Ek sal dit probeer.
Just a sideline people.

Gonzo, ignots can be used and lead shot as well. But I pose the question especially for pouring molten lead into the keel box.
By pouring in molten lead the keel is solidly filled with the heavy stuff, and the CG lower than with ignot or shot. Another advantage is that the lead would be anchored well fast to the keel because of the structural "formers within.

Any other ideas?

[Dutch Peter]

Wynand,

I have to add to my first post that the biggest part of the keels is normally filled with lead ingots before pooring lead. Otherwise it would not be possible to loose all the heat.
The keels are protected against catching fire in the methods I discribe, but I can imagine this happenening when someone goes about it the wrong way.

Met wat voor boot ben je bezig?

[MikeJohns]

Wynand
I would recommend casting separately then lifting into place and bedding in resin or tar. I would paint the aluminium inside , (etch then at least 150 microns of epoxy ) lead and aluminium are (from memory) about half a volt apart on the galvanic scale. If you pour directly into the keel with the metals in contact and get some moisture in there you will have a replating job within 3 months. You cannot treat alloy as you would steel.

[Dutch Peter]

Mike,

Sorry to say, but you sound a little paranoid. How do you get moisture between the alu and the lead when the lead is poored in at, let's say 500 degrees???
In addition, this methode is used at yards that build vessels with an open account!!!
They don't see that vessel back in 10 years, and when they do, it's for a refit of the interior, and not the keel.

[MikeJohns]

Peter

Add aluminium , warm Australian sea water, marine grade alloy and then drop in something more noble (which means just about anything) then sit back and watch it fizz.

I have reported on the result of a 3/4" copper washer that ate through from the bilge to the ocean in just over one month. The mechanic lost the washer so we verified the time scale.
The bilge was damp and unpainted the washer was wedged against a stringer.
Now the owner of that work boat paints his bilge, as we recommend to all Al boat owners.

Even very large commercial craft can have some ridiculous inbuilt corrosion starters, just because commercial boatbuilders do it doesn't mean its ok. I could go on for a while here !

with a bit of flux, lead can be persauded to stick to the surface of steel and the whole lot becomes one solid mass. Aluminium doesn't bond to the lead consequently it works a little and moisture can collect down between the lead and the plate. If it does you have a disaster in short order.

If it is poured then it should be either capped with fully welded plate and or bitumin or resin to fully insulate the bimetal region from any moisture. If you had bare Al and Pb together in a wet bilge the alloy would be lucky to last 3 months before the keel fell off. If you have pinholes in the welds below the waterline then any seawater gaining entry will again cause extensive damage.

Incidentally even with steel keels designers often prescribe either painting or zinc sheeting to line the keel prior to the pour. I have never specified zinc sheeting but I suppose you could use this method with aluminium. The zinc sheet is folded and laid all around the insides of the pour area and the molten lead softens it adheres to it and forms it against the backing metal.

Corrosion inside the hull works quite differently to that immersed outside, you can't work on the ratio of areas to assess likely corrosion rates. The old friend of steel hulls a good alkaline cement doesn't work with aluminium either.

Yep utterly absolutely and totally paranoid when it comes to Aluminium.

[Dutch Peter]

Mike,

Don't see this as me disregarding your experience, but the point I'm making is that this methode is used on yachts of €50,000,000.=. I'm sure the yard knows what their doing. That you have bad experiences with the combination doesn't mean it can go right. You mention several factors that can be eliminated.

[D'ARTOIS]

There is another, more simple method and used by well known shipyards: no, ingots, no molten lead ( although the way Dutch Peter describes it can do no harm ) Wynand, aluminium can burn but not by smelted lead, it burns only at a very high incendiary. In a mass of fire. Not by just coming in contact with a hot item.
No, the simple method is using hail, like hail in a shotgun cartridge.
It is supplied in bags of 25 and 50 kgs and poured bij way of a pipe in the holde of the keel. After that, and the boat have been trimmed again, the ballast is sealed.
As you say, fair winds, oftewel goeie vaart!

[MikeJohns]

Peter

Proff yards are not manned and run by engineers, our involvement is low in the actual building of the vessel, we do the design and the specifications, then you find the yard knows better, and although within the rules the vessel gets approved the corners that are cut shorten the vessels lifespan, all for a few hundred dollars.

The big problem I find is the yard only has to guarantee its work for 12 months then its the owners problem.

I would be very suprised if there is not some sort of basic sealing, even just epoxy paint used in the yards in Holland. If they dont in wet bilge areas than I suggest they will start to do so soon as alloy boats become more common.

D'Artois
Its called lead shot. Problem is the cost and availabiity, in many parts of the world lead shot is around 5 times more expensive than scrap lead. Some builders use lead shot poured in layers and they fuse it together with a gas torch to increase its density.

I have always thought it a good way of handling the ballast since you can shovel it around, shape it and then pour resin over the top. It does need restraining for inversion with capping plates unless its all mixed with resin and runs through the frames.

As an aside, even lloyds gets things a bit skew at times, they approve some dissimilar metals that should not be used.

[Dutch Peter]

Peter

I would be very surprised if there is not some sort of basic sealing, even just epoxy paint used in the yards in Holland. If they don’t in wet bilge areas than I suggest they will start to do so soon as alloy boats become more common.
.

No sealing applied, but to clarify, these keels are generally not connected to the bilges! The area wit lead and alu is dry.


As an aside, even Lloyds gets things a bit skew at times, they approve some dissimilar metals that should not be used.

Have to agree on that point, only argument I can put against this, is that corrosion is a very difficult subject. (and sure all the other class societies make the same mistakes!!! For my re-assurance!!)

[Alan Gluyas]

I have to place around 250 kg of lead ballast in the keel of a 28' semi displacement alloy hull that I launched last year. ( I was being clever with long thin hull forms and slightly overdid it)The keel is welded to the outside of the hull plating and is 80mm wide and about 6 mtrs long. ( See attached photo) Height varies from 100mm forward to 550mm aft where the stern tube penetrates the hull. There are formers every 500 mm in the keel, which is nominally sealed shut ( I have no confidence that my welding is pinhole free, having pressure tested too many alloy fuel tanks. The 3 coats of epoxy paint on the outside of the hull will cover a multitude of welding sins and hopefully seal a few leaks ). I really need to drill a hole in the keel base to find out how dry it is.

I am planning on chopping a couple of oval holes into two adjacent keel spaces about 75 x 50 mm in the upper part of the keel from the outside of the hull and pouring in leadshot mixed with epoxy resin. The resin is supposed to achieve two objectives: first it is supposed to seal the lead shot and minimise the galvanic effects of contact between the lead and the alloy. Secondly, it will stop the lead shot rolling around in the bottom of the keel space and migrating along the keel base through the rat holes in the bottom corners of the keel formers.

I do not underestimate the potential for a galvanic reaction between the two metals but effectively encapsulating the lead shot in resin should moderate this. If not I may need to graft on a new keel eventually.

My original plan had been to cast up some lead bricks just narrow enough to drop in the keel and cut bigger access holes in the keel side, but the lead shot will be much quicker. I will weld patches back into the keel side when I have finished.

Lead shot will cost me around AUD$4.00 per kg, when I could buy scrap lead around AUD$1 to AUD$1.50 kg.

If all turns to custard I will let you know.

Cheers

"May your keel never fall off" ( Old Western Australian proverb )

[Pavel]

My designer has suggested to fill up the space between lead and aluminium with oil, wait for a week to get it to every cavity and then preassure test it. If it does not leak, leave as it is. Might that be a solution to the galvanic corrosion problem? Perhaps even some transformer oil with enhanced corrosion resistance property would do even better?

[Dutch Peter]

My designer has suggested to fill up the space between lead and aluminium with oil, wait for a week to get it to every cavity and then preassure test it. If it does not leak, leave as it is. Might that be a solution to the galvanic corrosion problem? Perhaps even some transformer oil with enhanced corrosion resistance property would do even better?
Very nice, and what happens when it does leak?? You're gone weld it??

[Pavel]

Very nice, and what happens when it does leak?? You're gone weld it??

Good point, of course you pressure test it first to about 3psi and then fill it with oil (checked the plans again). Also checked the book 'boatbuilding with aluminium' by Stephen F. Pollard and he suggest to pressure test the keel to above mentioned preasure and seal it by welding (no mention of oil).
Also when pooring lead, stronbacks about six inch appart are recommended to hold it together. Hope this helps.

[gonzo]

You can pressure test with air, oil will explode if you try to weld it. I don't know where you are, but check for environmental regulations, specially for transformer oil; it is toxic.

[Thunderhead19]

I would like to add a little point about moisture when pouring lead or or any other molten metal. Water expands around two thousand times it's volume when it vapourizes, and superheated steam can contain even more energy. Imagine heating an ounce of water to 800 degree superheated steam in less than half a second. BOOOMMM! all the water must be driven out prior to pouring.

[Pavel]

You can pressure test with air, oil will explode if you try to weld it. I don't know where you are, but check for environmental regulations, specially for transformer oil; it is toxic.

yap right, of course you air pressure it, it comes without saying. Then fill it via that test ball-valve with oil and leave it as is. If transformer oil is not good enough, try Monini extra virgin olive oil, its rather good one. Its new to me that in US you guys do care about environment. Good.

[Dutch Peter]

Although I have no actual experience with lead in alu keels, I have a lot of confidence in the yards that use the methode I described before. My notion is still, that a yard that builds 30-50 million euro yachts knows what it's doing and doesn't look at saving a couple of hundred bucks for not coating with epoxy or taking a chance of losing a keel due too corrosion.

[kapnD]

Alan, I'd hesitate to use epoxy as a medieum for the lead shot. Its bonding properties are severe overkill, its extremely expensive, and then the chemical hazard. I'd look for a glue on the lines of "Parabond" or similar. (I'm no chemist, but I think they're called polymer or aliphatic glues?) They cleanup with water when wet, and remain resilient when dry. In a deep sailboat keel, I'd suggest a small sump with a pipe up through the lead to monitor moisture and pump out if necessary.

[ted655]

I'm facing a similar delema. Reading these threads gave me an idea. I don't need every inch (mm) of space to achieve my ballast ratio. I'm going to use lead shot (hail) and pour it into short lengths of 6" PVC pipe. Plastic covered ingots. Then, after trim, pour a gravy of epoxy & thickining agent to seal everything tight. Thanks for having the discussion. I to was ready to "pour".

[MikeJohns]

I have been a bit busy lately, been meaning to post these photo's.

I had an insurance report on this very topic.

Here is a photo of 8mm 6000 series plate that was hosting poured lead ballast. The plate has been cut out for replacement and is lying on concrete (visible through the holes).

Overflow water from the chain locker sump had occasionally over the last 8 years made its what had been considered a dry bilge.
The lead was on a thick film of aluminium oxide scale, the oxide layer was consistent and around 5 to 7mm thick the hull had corroded through in a number of small areas and while at sea the outer paint film failed and the water seeped slowly in.
In reality the damage is minimal and the owner caused much damage ripping out the furniture to find the source of the new spring. She was taking around 5 litres per hour.

The insurance will not cover either his damage nor the re-plating. The builders (lawyer) to whom we sent a very detailed report, claim normal established procedure although there was no barrier epoxy coat or barrier top coat.

In the same vessel there were some trimmer lead pigs lying in a thick bed of epoxy under the engine in a damp bilge area. When they were finally jack hammered and prized free (on my insistance for inspection) the hull was pristine underneath.

The Moral is if you pour molten lead into alloy then isolate the area somehow to keep it dry. Capping with a welded plate and ensuring an airtight seal would be sensible if there is any chance of moisture ingress.

[PAR]

Look folks, if you pour molten lead into anything it will shrink a bit when it cools, so a tight fit isn't possible, cast ingots to fit the keel. They're removable and can be sufficiently coated to prevent any dissimilar metals contact issues from rising. The other option with lead is to use shot or ground up bits and embalm them in the goo of choice, before during or after the placement. I'd recommend you use the ingots (pigs) because they can be removed for repairs, or to lighten the load in a grounding, both very good reasons not to bond the stuff to the plating.

[AlexMorozov]

Hi,
as per my expirience, good way to use the lead gots, loaded in heavy primed/painted aluminum keel. The sides/bottom of the keel is heavy covered with PU paint/primer or sealant. Then loading the gots and pured with concret mixing. layer after layer. On top of last concrete layer, the epoxy is applied. And surely some crossbars are welded at top of ballst block.
So, it is not expensive, take short time, good for fire protection (just3-5 mm of epoxy), no deformation and no problem while grounding as it is solid block with outer layer of sealant/promer+aluminum. Also possible to take out the balast, if required, but it take much more time then loading it.
good luck

[Wynand N]

Hi,
Then loading the gots and pured with concret mixing. layer after layer. On top of last concrete layer, the epoxy is applied. And surely some crossbars are welded at top of ballst block.
and no problem while grounding as it is solid block with outer layer of sealant/promer+aluminum.....Also possible to take out the balast, if required, but it take much more time then loading it.good luck

Im curious:confused:
Just how do you propose to take this "ballast block" out of the keel after being grounded?....start with the welded cross bars;) Another thing thought, I do not sail a bare hull and deck....

[MikeJohns]

Here's an email I just received on this subject I consider worth answering here. I'd also like any one else's suggestions.



To Quote:


Sorry for bothering you in this way but the thread I was reading is long closed.
By accident I found your very interesting comment on lead filled aluminium keels.

I fear I have encountered the problem you described with my 15 year old 44ft aluminium sailboat.
When preparing for the season I found a tiny hole in the keel surface leaking moisture. Further examination of the interior found a crack in the sealed keel cover. The lead was sealed by the yard with resin (probably polyesther) . I imagine the occasional bilge water finding a way through this crack between the poured lead and the 8 mm aluminium plating.

I had a marine surveyor do a sonic thickness test on the keel plating and he found 2 other spots also approx 3 cm below the “lead – level”. He advises to open up these three spots and weld 3 new plates of 10 x 10 cm in them. Then dry the boat (heat the keel for a couple of days) reseal the interior bilge.

My question is if you think this will solve the problem. How can I be sure no other “weak spots” exist ? What method of repair did you use ?

Your help is highly appreciated.

Jop Dutilh
Rotterdam,



Jop

Remedial work is always a compromise in these situation.
You have a highly reactive metal in contact with a much more noble one with a small void and if you introduce an electrolyte there is unfortunately no cheap simple solution .

In the case I posted about Initially we thought it would be a few small patches….
Lots of drain holes were drilled down to the keel base several of which weeped, compressed air was blown in some of the holes which drove water out of others, it also blew some new small holes but it tended to balloon the plating slightly and care was required .
It was washed as well as possible with fresh water and then by forcing ethyl alcohol through and heating with an electric heat gun.
Alcohol mixes readily with water and the mix evaporates much more easily and is a common partial drying process, follow with heat .It was heated until vapor stopped venting out of the drilled holes.


In the end more and more plate was cut away as the extent became apparent , in fact nearly 1/2 of the entire keel plate was removed on one side, All the bad parts looked like the photo I posted in this thread with lots of grey paste and white powder with numerous pits. The only way to stop the process is to replace the plate since the corrosion products trap too much electrolyte. Injecting epoxy and similar gap filling mechanisms would have no remedial effect once the corrosion has started and the moisture and ions and corroded alloy are all nicely mixed into a paste in full contact. Local corrosion cells form in this goop and the whole lot corrodes quite rapidly.

The trick is getting rid of the moisture, but it is very hard to do when trapped in such expansive voids.

When you have wet corrosion products trapped in the interface it will carry on self corroding . Unfortunately the first repair will probably only slow the problem down, stopping further ingress of water from inside and try and catch any thin bits before they pit right through and re-introduce more electrolyte. If you can do this eventually it should peter out, the full extent of the problem will become more apparent when the first effected areas are cut out.



I'm sorry I cannot give you a magic bullet. I'd really like builders and designers to understand that this can be a significant problem.

cheers

[flying dutchman]

thanks for the quick reply. One more question: you talked about replating the keel surface. Can this be done in a safe manner with the ballast in place ? In our situation the keel has 5 or 6 sections each of which are filled with lead. Welding from the inside sounds difficult.

Regards,
Jop

[Guest62110524]

what I usually do is throw in as big a pieces as possible, some up 20 30kg, then pour molten around it then seal then TEST USING NOTHING OTHER than manometre If the keel is properly constructed designed and built and welded there will never be a problem But if you have overlooked a pin hole and you say crack a plug weld, then you are introuble, because then you would have to cut open one side, flush with fresh water and dry , the slightest and I mean slightest hint of moisture and alloy will not weld
In 30 years I have not had a prob, but saw Taberlys Pen Duick, with spent uranium or was in plutonium waste, was cracked in 78 Whitbread in AK , IMPOSSIBLE to fix in that short time
To reiterate the manometre is the only test that is failsure

[MikeJohns]

Yes Stu this is the best solution; to cap and pressure test the welds.

Jop

Yes you re-weld with the lead in place. I'm not an alloy welder and whoever you use should have enough knowledge to accomplish this.

With 8mm the plate welded form one side only the edges are prepped with a Y shape the first root weld is onto the base of the Y and should only just penetrate through then the remaining V is welded multiple run, the lead will melt if it comes in contact with the weld, if there is any room a thin stainless steel plate can be pushed down behind the joint as it is welded to isolate the joint from the lead, it's pulled out after welding.


Any comments Stu ?

[mydauphin]

Don't put lead in a aluminum boat unless you seal it very, very well or you end up with a battery and no boat.... SIMPLE

I have seem some big boats using lead sheets for engine room sound insulation. After a few years eventhough aluminum was painted the lead leeched something into bilge and corrode unpainted bilge and area around shield. Very bad, holes in hull bad. Same goes for copper pipes, people do it but it is a problem in no time.

[MikeJohns]

Another issue has been the corroding of inbuilt water tanks, many have corroded through within a short time when unpainted. The Chlorine and other contaminants such as minute traces of dissolved copper from copper water-pipes quickly corrode unpainted alloy. Interestingly alloy gutters on buildings quickly corrode if there is any copper roofing just from the minute amounts of dissolved copper in the rain water. The same can occur from condensation that forms on more noble metals and drips onto bare alloy, as incredible as it may seem this is probably what happened with the lead insulation.

[Brent Swain]

For my current boat I made a mold the shape of the keel fore and aft and made ingots to fit, then stacked them in and poured concrete around them. I started the engine for vibration and the air came bubbling out. Don't overdo the vibration or cement and sand will separate.
I've seen major distortion with hot lead pored in an aluminium keel. It's very unpredictable. No such problem with steel keels I've seen.
Brent

[cvzzr]

I am currently looking for aluminum hull ballast options as well. One thing I had dreamed up was to pour concrete inside the keels (I am considering a twin keel design), then bolting on a lead bulb at the end. This would concentrate the weight lower, and the concrete inside the keels would keep the size of the bulb manageable.

Any ideas about how this could work? Of course, the lead and the bolts would have to be isoloated from the aluminum with some HDPE or something...

Here's the pic that got me thinking:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/metal-boat-building/9422d1159817634-brewer-aluminum-design-g2612179.jpg

[cvzzr]

Sorry for posting again, but here's another pic that I find interesting and it may be relevant to the original poster:

http://www.fr-lucas.com/fpdb/H36BKFLittorAl01.jpg

It seems that as long as the lead and bolts are electrically isoloated from the keel, it should be no problem, with the added benfit of a lower COG...

[Crag Cay]

Alu has a further disadvantage, it can burn....
This need squashing: aluminium doesn't burn or else you couldn't weld it, melt it to cast anything, recycle it or even smelt it.

After the Falklands War the newspapers started all the nonsense about the aluminium used in British warships 'burning', but all the subsequent official reports completely refuted this. A google search will find all the relevant papers.

Contributors to a Boat Design Forum should know better than to recycle these flights of fancy that spout from the backsides of sensation seeking tabloid journalists.

[Brent Swain]

Those bulbs at their aft end will be nasty for fouling anchor rodes. I had that problem before I ran a heavy flatbar vertically from the tip of the trailing edge to the hull. I now make the trailing edge vertical, for that reason. Experimenting with a piece of string and couple of keels on a board will make obvious what works and what doesn't . When you foul a rode there in a bit of wind or current it is very difficult to get it unfouled. Could be dangerous on a lee shore.
On those keels, being more vertical, the trailing edge or flatbar should run slightly aft to where it meets the hull. This is another example of how what works well on paper and in the math, doesn't work out in the real world , or shows the importance of hands on cruising experience.
The rudder looks as flimsey and fragile as they could possibly make it, and very prone to fouling.
Brent

[mydauphin]

It is amazing that people build Aluminum boats to make them lighter and then add lead to make them heavier... Oh, Aluminum, Lead, Copper, Concrete, or anything touching Aluminum will corrode it. Buy and read the boat Metal Hull Construction. Aluminum is great, but electrolysis, crevice corrosion, poultice corrosion, electrolysis will all eat your boat a live and turn it into swiss cheese. Many people will tell you what you want to hear. Learn it for yourself before you pour anything anywhere... CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.

[cvzzr]

Those bulbs at their aft end will be nasty for fouling anchor rodes...
The rudder looks as flimsey and fragile as they could possibly make it, and very prone to fouling.
Brent

Hi Brent,

I agree with the fouling and rudder comments. This designer has a bit of a better setup on his 31', with the rudder skeg triangulated back to the hull via the propeller shaft skeg. I would change the design of the keels to eliminate the extension of the bulbs.

I do like the idea of the bolt-on lead as it gets the COG lower, though. I would still want some ballast in the keels (concrete, maybe) to maintain some stability if one lost the lead off the bottom due to a severe impact or whatever.

I am still considering your 36' hull, but I am finding that aluminum is relatively cheap right now, and I have some experience working with it having built a welded aluminum 17' skiff. I want to stay with the twin keel idea for the ability to keep a boat without moorage (it may be a little more crowded down where you are once I get a boat in the water :) )

[Ilan Voyager]

what I usually do is throw in as big a pieces as possible, some up 20 30kg, then pour molten around it then seal then TEST USING NOTHING OTHER than manometre If the keel is properly constructed designed and built and welded there will never be a problem But if you have overlooked a pin hole and you say crack a plug weld, then you are introuble, because then you would have to cut open one side, flush with fresh water and dry , the slightest and I mean slightest hint of moisture and alloy will not weld
In 30 years I have not had a prob, but saw Taberlys Pen Duick, with spent uranium or was in plutonium waste, was cracked in 78 Whitbread in AK , IMPOSSIBLE to fix in that short time
To reiterate the manometre is the only test that is failsure
Happily it wasn't plutonium a very toxic metal (a part radioactivity) it was waste uranium. Almost as inert as lead. The lone problem with "poor" uranium that it must be very well sealed as it dissolves in salt water maybe as fast as sugar in hot coffee.

All the hot pouring I have seen (2 or 3 times) were finished after the tests of leaking with compressed air, by pouring a very fluid epox resin and making a very slight vacuum to take out any air bubble. Sorry I have no more infos, I was just looking as spectator

[Brent Swain]

Hi Brent,

I agree with the fouling and rudder comments. This designer has a bit of a better setup on his 31', with the rudder skeg triangulated back to the hull via the propeller shaft skeg. I would change the design of the keels to eliminate the extension of the bulbs.

I do like the idea of the bolt-on lead as it gets the COG lower, though. I would still want some ballast in the keels (concrete, maybe) to maintain some stability if one lost the lead off the bottom due to a severe impact or whatever.

I am still considering your 36' hull, but I am finding that aluminum is relatively cheap right now, and I have some experience working with it having built a welded aluminum 17' skiff. I want to stay with the twin keel idea for the ability to keep a boat without moorage (it may be a little more crowded down where you are once I get a boat in the water :) )

It will get a bit more crowded, as another 36 is due for launching in a couple of weeks, but there is still room, if we pick some good spots out . The recession probably killed plans they had to extend the breakwater further west.
Brent