Is there law on high seas?

[tarrysailor]

Your pardon for asking a dumb question.

Let me put it this way. Suppose I have a big container on my deck growing my favorite herb. (Parsley, naturally.)

Along comes someone who decides to take my parsley and maybe take my boat, too. Mind you, I'm bothering no one, just sailing along on the high sea, mellowed out, watching the sun set.

And being a staunch member of the NRA, from my cold dead hands I produce my trusty fifty caliber, swivel mounted, fully automatic cannon and shoot him full of fifty zillion holes. Nothing special, just what Charlston Heston and Moses and your average NRA member would do, you know.

What does this get me at the next port --- well, assuming I get even that far?

[guest]

It all depends on which country happens to claim rights over the piece of water you are in, and to a lesser degree how far you are from land.
the registration of your vessel has an impact.

However I wouldn't suggest pulling a gun on someone. Anyway I imagine if a USCG cutter pulled alongside wishing ill of your herbs, and you were to wave a fire stick at them they might very well continue negotiations until you ceased to exist (that probably goes for a lot of other people that might approach your vessel with less than honest intentions)

Sun Tzu: never engage the enemy in frontal combat unless you have absolute superiority of position, numbers, and firepower. (kind of like US foreign policy... :D )

read the thread on piracy.

[FAST FRED]

With a US vessel your DOOMED to follow current US law.

However US "law" can be stretched to cover most any action in the world.

Remember the kidnapping I current imprisonment of D Noreiga?

Not a "nice guy" but certainly not covered under any US "law".

Satelites can read any license plate , or discover your crop with color or infrared sensors, down to the last seedling!

FAST FRED

[matt in miami]

drink beer instead, and ofer a few to the hostiles. you ll get farther.

[tarrysailor]

Excuse me for thinking. But I think it's pretty bad when you can't grow your own tree in your own back yard, without gomeone spying on you and arresting you for it. That sounds like Nazi Germany to me. Next, I suppose I can get arrested for harboring a Jew in my back yard.

Call me naive if you want, but I've never thought about the legal (down)side of sailing. How do you go about registering a ship in Panama? Suppose I don't want to fly the U.S. flag. The U.S. is not regarded well in certain areas of the world. That is to say, I don't want to be kidnapped and have my head sawn off for visiting the pyramids or having to put into the south Phillipines for repair.

One thing I'm not naive about. I go armed. I figure the U.S. Navy is too busy over in Iraq protecting Shell Oil for it to be concerned about protecting a little fish like me in the South Pacific. Am I wrong?

[RThompson]

don't want to fly the U.S. flag. The U.S. is not regarded well in certain areas of the world.

Flying the US ensign from your boat is just as likely to cause instant price inflation for goods and services as it would generate hostility. (probably more likely as you will go into port more often than you willl be threatened, ...hopefully)

Don't underestimate the legacy of (cash-cow) US tourists/boats overpaying for everything. Not really their fault, they just don't understand the (subtle)difference between big american city and little remote island village economies. Sorry, I'm not being very fair to the honest (US) live aboard world cruising grottie yachtie's.
:)
Rob

[FAST FRED]

Although its not "legal" many US boats will fly the German flag while in a port.

The bum boats know the Germans are not particularly generous ,
and go sell/beg elsewhere.

Simple solutions for simple problems,

" I figure the U.S. Navy is too busy over in Iraq protecting Shell Oil for it to be concerned about protecting a little fish like me in the South Pacific. Am I wrong?"

Completly , most of the Irac oil goes to Euroland , almost none to the US.

WE get the competative drilling contracts (the Russians and French get the (5X as E$pensive) Bribed equippment contracts) and the Euros get the oil.

Simple too,

FAST FRED

[Guest]

Note that most super yachts fly a British Commonwealth flag, even when the owner is a US citizen.

[FAST FRED]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Note that most super yachts fly a British Commonwealth flag, even when the owner is a US citizen."

This is so the vessel won't violate the Jones Act , and need e$pensive US crew, and keep logs for waste disposal etc.

Most can't be rented out in US waters .

No sales tax is charged on these boats delivered "forign" , so there is a huge savings.

FAST FRED

[tarrysailor]

So, if I fly the U.S. flag on my boat and on a visit to the south of France, I find a charming French maid who wants to hire on and travel with me, I couldn't say, 'Sure, cutie, let's go to my bearth where we can discuss it in complete privacy?'

Where do I find a book about this subject --- one with practical suggestions for work-arounds for odious laws and regulations? Like, how do I register in Panama?

In the same vein, I read in one of the numerous action/adventure novels (maybe by Clive Custer) that a large number of the rustbucket freighters that do business, don't actually have owners you can find. They are registered in Panama and if you go hunting for who owns them, you get a post office box in Bimini. Salary for crew is paid from a bank account in the Bahamas or some other bank-secrecy country. Is this true?

[D'ARTOIS]

Making often the tour Holland-South of France, through the Gibraltar Strait (not the inland channels) I come across many vessels from abroad, US, UK, German, Swedish, you name it.
First of all, US ships carry their flags, and why not?
Save for some Spanish ports, US boaters wouldn't be overcharged as long as they know what they are doing. If in doubt, you will always find a guy in port who speaks the local lingo and will help you buying your stuff.
Of course, stay away from the drugs scene. Particularly that's the problem Dutch boaters often have to cope with. Local coast guard and port authorities are not so fond of the red, white and blue for reasons that the Dutch Government, drugusers in their student years, have no strong laws to suppress import and export of soft drugs and only some on hard drugs.
I kept a Winchester 30. - .30 on board, not loaded and not ready for direct action, only as a last resource...
Over the time I forgot the gun and lying in the small fishing port of Monnickendam my neighbour came and asked for some tools.
I was sitting on deck and said him to check one of the starboard lockers.
He saw the gun and raced off to the Police. When I came back from a small trip, the jetty was loaded with the mucho bravo's, still waiting till I had moored the boat.
Then one of them stepped forward and asked if I had any concealed weapons on board.
I remebered the neighbour, and also the Winchester in the locker.
I could not explain for nor could I get away with it They confiscated the rifle and I had to come with them for the red tape plus the rest.
Finally, I got away with the loss of the rifle only. The judge listened to me when I explained the situation and the State Attorney confirmed that the weapon was not ready to use and that there were no signs of that it could be made ready for firing within a short span of time.
I could also explain that I bought the rifle officially in France and that I was allowed to carry a gun on board (at that time and in France only) and that I forgot about the rifle.
What it means is this: in Europe, any weapon on board is prohibited as long as it is not declared at the local port authorities. Specifically the Dutch are very cautious about arms on board. If you have, you may rest assured that they will impound them upon your definite departure.
In Holland it is arms and no drugs, in the US it is no arms but drugs.
The only excisting law, on land and on sea is: Who is the strongest.
Going through the Strait of Gibraltar I was suddenly followed by a Spanish coastguard vessel that saw the red, white and blue.
They followed me from Tarifa till Puenta Europa and when they saw that I had no intention to go to Ceuta or M'diq (largest smuggle port in north Morocco) they gave me the slip and disappeared whilst honking their horn.
As a yachtman, you have a lot to loose. For the exception of European waters, where you can wave your flag freely, you cannot do so whilst going to other continents without the clear available danger of being threatened.
In the discussion about piracy some issues had already passed the forum.
Officially there is a regular law of the sea that excists when Governments are in open disputes or even conflicts. If a Dutch frigate holds-up a US yacht in the Caribean, or vice versa, even when that ship is in extra terriotorial waters, they can do as they please. If they see a Russian warship, they will think twice. Really it's just a matter of who is the strongest.

[Richard Petersen]

I can't resist this one!! If your dead- don't worry about anything. If you feel they are going to do you in- do them in first. Then first get a damn good lawyer and let him earn his money. Rich.

[Holland]

You can register you boat in places like Mongolia or Armenia which are landlocked and have quite a bit of freedom from legal responsibilities that you might find in other places.

[safewalrus]

Get a BIG gun, hide it deep, if you HAVE to use it ensure NO witnesses (shoot, sink, kill), everybody dump gun carry on with your voyage, say nothing - only thing is IF you have untrustworthy crew members they have to go to [you needed a new wife anyway!]

If he's bigger than you, depart at speed, and do not let strangers rummage around the boat - trust no one!

[MattZ]

Excuse me for thinking. But I think it's pretty bad when you can't grow your own tree in your own back yard, without gomeone spying on you and arresting you for it.

Well when people inhale the smoke from a smouldering piece of this herb, it's a nuisance to society. Common sense is uncommon enough as it is, the last thing the world needs is more stoned dough-heads.

As far as maritime law goes, if I crime is commited in international waters, it's the responsibility of the country of the next port of call to make the arrest. That's my understanding from an incident where a murder occured on a cargo ship in international waters.

A person on a vessel in territorial water is subject to all laws of the nation overseeing the territorial water. This is regardless of the person's nationality, or vessel registration.

[Bergalia]

Two quotes from the above discussion: From MattZ - "As far as maritime law goes, if I crime is commited in international waters, it's the responsibility of the country of the next port of call to make the arrest."

And from D'Artois - "....stay away from the drugs scene. Particularly that's the problem Dutch boaters often have to cope with."

Which possibly explains why the Flying Dutchman is doomed to sail on, and on, and on..... :D

[safewalrus]

Bergalia

Guess you got it in one there! Like it mon!

[marshmat]

...how do I register in Panama? Ask the Canadian Prime Minister, Paul Martin. When he owned Canada Steamship Lines (whose boats never leave the Great Lakes) he re-registered his fleet to a few little 3rd-world dictatorships so they wouldn't have to pass Canadian inspection and pay Canadian taxes. This is common practice; even $700-million cruise ships do this.

...a large number of the rustbucket freighters that do business, don't actually have owners you can find. They are registered in Panama and if you go hunting for who owns them, you get a post office box in Bimini. Salary for crew is paid from a bank account in the Bahamas or some other bank-secrecy country. Is this true? Yes, this does seem to be the case an awful lot. Libya and Liberia are popular countries of origin; they declare the home port as Nassau and run the $$ out of the Caymans or something similar. Even boats that never leave the Med, or the Great Lakes, are often done like this.

Each country's different as to what it enforces. I like to think flying the Canadian flag is safe, but this isn't true everywhere. Same goes for the US and most European flags. A lot just don't paint a home port under the name, and carry a dozen different flags that they can change as needed. In Canada for instance, it's customary to fly a Canadian flag along with the flag of your home port when in our waters. Not everyone does, it doesn't really matter. But in some countries etiquette is the difference between a warm welcome and a military interception.

On the east coast of Canada, over the Grand Banks, any fishing vessel flying anything other than the Maple Leaf automatically comes under suspicion. Caution is the name of the game. If you're carrying arms and/or drugs, HIDE THEM WELL! (and be prepared to bribe port officials).