Chinese Junk Rig

[Wynand N]

Hi everyone, :)

Is the chinese junk rig worth considering?

A lot has been said about the efficiency and simplicity of this rig and sailplan. Can it really goes to windward well?
I have never came across a junk rig in my part of the woods so it is a complete mystery to me.

How would such a rig work on a modern hull or should it be avoided like the plague? It is ugly though.

Fair winds

Wynand Nortje

[tonyr]

The standard work is Junk Rig, by Blondie Haslar and another guy (can't remember his name). If you are talking about small boats, Todd Bradshaw in "Canoe Rig" has a pretty good treatment of the subject, along with lots more.

I looked at a junk approach for a 17 ft Whitehall sailboat, but decided that a fully battened balance lug was simpler and every bit as good. I have been pleased with the desision. For larger boats, Haslar makes a reasonable case. That is not to say that I would go that route, since there are so many easy-handling devices for sails out now that there seems to me to be little need.

Tony.

[sharpii2]

Hi Waynand

Of chinese junk rigged yachts, two examples come to mind. One is a folkboat so rigged called Jester the other is a stock design 'blue water' cruiser called Gazzele. One was used in the old OSTAR single handed transatlantic race (When it was still an interesting race of ideas rather than wallets). When Jester first appeared in what I believe to be the first race, she was the smallest in the fleet. She had a single, junk rig sail and an unsual cabin design that allowed her to be worked from below. She worked so well that she participated in at least five of those races. She never won or even placed, but she always finished. This fact alone should hint at some of the graces and shortcomings of this rig.

The Gazzele was a Thomas Colvin design of the early '70's. She was a steel, chined, full keel schooner of about forty two feet. She carried two chinese lugs. The sails were so heavy that they had to be hoisted with electric winches. That being said, with her high stern and broken sheer, she was a salty looking thing and off wind and down wind she perfromed well.
Upwind, I understand, she was not so hot. Her flat sails could point better standard cambered sails but they produced little drive. She would have to fall off a few degrees before she would start moving. I believe in any tacking duel, even with another full keeled schooner, gaff rigged, she would come up the loser. That being said, her sails did not flogg or flutter when she rounded up, and she could be reefed while still underway. Reefing was acomplished by simply slacking off on the halyard and, with her heavy battens, mean old mister gravity (who I have never known to conk out) would do the rest.

As I see it, The beauty of this rig is that instead of having heavily loaded ropes and cables (with the exception of the halyard, of course), it has sturdy battens and light strings. It has a profusion of small or even tiny fittings (to control each batten), but these fittings are relatively simple and can be hand made in a pinch. The sail cloth only has to span between battens so does not have to be of the best quality. The mast is usually free standing because stays and shrouds tend to cause the mast to break at their attatchment points. Because free standing masts tend to be frowned upon in open water, they are sometimes fitted with loose shrouds that are designed with some stretch in them. Gazzele, I believe, had such shrouds. It is my speculation that the great weight of the rig, at least twice that of any other rig with a yard or gaff (according to Mr. Colvin himself), dampened the sharp pitching and snap rolling that would, otherwise, bring a free standing rig of more conventional design to grief.

It seems once or twice a decade or so, I see this rig appear in a design reveiw. It appeared most recently in "Small Craft Advisory" Nov/Dec '04. It was for a micro cruiser (18ft) with deep water ambitions. As with what is typical of most recent appearences, it is a cat rig. It has a generous sail area of 247sft (23.4sm) for a loaded displacement of around 4000lbs (1818kg). It appears to have no shrouds. This boat is clearly not designed to win races (it doesn't even have a cockpit) but to go to far corners of the planet where standard yacht fitting may be very expensive (if they can be had at all) and making do is the order of the day. This is the use (in my humble opinion) that this rig is best suited.

Bob

"Efficiency and reliabillity are often opposits."

[tonyr]

Nice long message with plenty of good information! I think you did a useful job in nailing the trade-offs with junk rigs. Jester, by the way, was Blondie Haslar's boat (see my earlier post).

Tony.

[Tad]

See the following for info on Junk Rig (http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/junk/tutorial.html)

While I generally agree with what has been stated above, there is a great deal of mis-information presented as well.

Practical Junk Rig was written by HG (Blondie) Hasler & Jock McLeod, it is the most thorough coverage of the subject. Tom Colvin' various books, Cruising As A Way Of Life, and Steel Boatbuilding cover the subject in a different style. There is also a small book, The Chinese Sailing Rig, Designing & Building Your Own, by Derek Van Loan, which is a good primer on the subject and will provide good information to build an experimental rig.

To paraphrase Phil Bolger writing 20 years ago, "I don't know much about the rig, but I am impressed by the quality of the people who advocate it." Haslar, McLeod, and Colvin have all sailed thousands of miles offshore with variations of the Chinese Balanced Lug Rig. I've sailed offshore with the rig and it's awesome. I note Bolger currently using his own variations of the Chinese Lug rig more and more.

In the first OSTAR race, 1960, Haslar sailed Jester, a Folkboat with his modified rig and deck, to second place. He finished in 48 days, only 8 days behind first place finisher Francis Chichester in Gipsy Moth III, a 40' ocean racing yawl. Smallest boat in the 1960 race was Jean Lacombe's Cap Horn, 21', who finished in 74 days. The other two entrants were 25', equal to Jester, one was a standard Folkboat (63 days), and Cardinal Vertue, 56 days. But Haslar did even better four years later in the 1964 OSTAR, finishing in 37 days, again 8 days behind Chichester, but only 10 days behind Eric Tabarly in his 44' ultra light ketch, Pen Duick II.

I'd say that was definitive proof of Colvin's contention, that the rig is equal or better to any "western" rig on a given hull. The idea that the sails are so heavy as to require powered winches to hoist is nonsense. Colvin would certainly not stand for that, and had no electricity aboard Gazelle. Multiple part halyards yes, but no powered winches required. The yard is heavy, but no more so than a gaff, and battens are light wood, aluminum or fiberglass tubing. Most of Colvin's Chinese Lug's carry a jib on a forestay; his masts also include shrouds, reflecting his use of steel or aluminum tubing for masts. Haslar/McLeod rigs are generally un-stayed, reflecting hollow built tapered wooden spars.

The real beauty of the Chinese Lug sail is the ability to spread lots of sail area with a low center of effort. The sails can be large because they can be reefed and sheeted with zero effort. You can achieve average cruising performance with a rig made of very simple parts, no NC machined SS jewelry required. The likelihood of losing the rig because one tiny highly stressed part breaks no longer exists.

Colvin's Gazelle below.


All the best, Tad

[sharpii2]

Thanks Tad for setting the record straight. I guess I only remeber Jester's later races.

And I wouldn't be surprised if I was also wrong about Gazzele's winches. I read about them such a long time ago.

Other than that. I' sticking to my story.

Bob

[K4s]

An article in November 2004 issue of Boating New Zealand seems to be topical to this disscussion,Titled Loads of new Junk.
K4s
ps. Email:editor@boatingnz.co.nz or for back issues WWW.nzmags.co.nz

[aussiejoe]

I am considering buying a part completed 42 ft Colvin junk rigged Schooner for single-handed extended ocean cruising (I am 76) What does anyone think about it's suitability? Also how do you reef the large jib without going out on the 8.6 ft bowsprit? (can a roller reefer be fitted to it?)
geoffrawson@hotmail.com

[Brent Swain]

The name says it all.
Friends who sailed with a junk rig for years, then switched to marconi ,said the marconi sailed far better , pointed much higher and was easier to sail. They were embarassed to have sailed so long with the junk rig.
Other friends broke all their battens between BC and Frisco, then broke all their battens again between Frisco and Hawaii, then broke all their battens again between Hawaii and BC. They say chafe was a major problem. Both went for Marconi on their next boat.
Junks go to windward at warp speed, speed only attainable by warping the truth. I have , along with other boats, sailed circles around junk rigged boats all day , proven by video evidence and many witnesses, only to have the owners later brag about having sailed circles around us all day.
Allow for a huge ******** factor when listening to junk enthusiasts.
While I can walk into most used equipment suppliers and walk out with a sail for under $300 and be sailing in an hour, there are few used sails available for junk rigs. Most have to be built from scratch. There is nothing simple about a junk rig . With over 300 ft of running rigging on a friend's 44 ft two masted junk schooner, it is anything but simple.

[Manie B]

Wynand i can across this video of a small boat with a Junk Rig

it gives an idea of the complications

like the guys have said - its junk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKprDvV7-po&feature=player_embedded

way too much traaaaaabel

[BeauVrolyk]

Hi everyone, :)

Is the chinese junk rig worth considering?

A lot has been said about the efficiency and simplicity of this rig and sailplan. Can it really goes to windward well?
I have never came across a junk rig in my part of the woods so it is a complete mystery to me.

How would such a rig work on a modern hull or should it be avoided like the plague? It is ugly though.

Fair winds

Wynand Nortje

Wynand,

Unfortunately, "A lot has been said" that is simply wrong!!

I have sailed a couple of boats rigged this way, many many years ago, and they fail on one key boat - complexity. They are neither "simple" nor are they "efficient".

Let's start with "simple": There are lines running all over the place, the battens chafe on everything, especially along the mast and shrouds, and they have about as much drag going to windward as a square topsail schooner (one of my favorite rigs, but not a paragon of simplicity). The one "simple" thing about them is that there is only one sheet and because the rig is balanced, like a balanced spade rudder, that sheet has less load that a un-balanced rig, like a marconi or gaff. That said, for exactly and precisely all the same reasons that many cruisers dislike balanced spade rudders, cruisers should dislike the Junk Rig sail. Finally, if you look at any picture of a Junk Rig you should make a list of all the things rubbing on something else and imagine maintaining that mess.

Let's finish with "Efficient": They aren't. Certainly, the Junk Rig does fine on a broad reach or run, where it is most similar to a square sail. But, on the wind, the place were efficiency really matters to most folks, it fails due to an inability to stabilize the leading edge of the sail. When sailing up wind you'll constantly be backwinding the sail, and unlike a marconi or gaff mainsail it won't just luff, it tries to tack the boat. Most Junks are set up with two sails, at least, precisely because a single masted Junk rig would tack at all sorts of embarrassing times. When sailing to windward you must set the forward sail to be stalled relative to the aft sail, meaning that you've sheeted it in too far. That way when the aft sail backwinds, and it can do it with a vengeance in a strong breeze and big seas, the forward sail will keep the bow of the boat pointed down wind and avoid an "auto-tack". If you sail with both sails trimmed to the correct angle, a small wind shift, like what you find at the top of a large wave at sea, can spin you around onto the opposite tack very quickly. This is not acceptable, from a safety perspective, in any serious boat.

While it is certainly true that folks from China sailed these boats all over the world during the 1400s, it is NOT true that they would choose to do so if they'd had a modern rig. Keep in mind how the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria were rigged, would you sail such a boat on purpose, not hardly. There is a reason these rigs exist only in movies and amongst ancient boat fans, they're a pain. I would strongly suggest that you avoid them - seriously.

Modern rig design is a massive improvement over what existed in the 14th through 19th century. They are simply safer, faster, more efficient, and less expensive.

'nuf said,

Beau

[MastMonkey]

of the junk rig and am confused by the disparity of replies and information I read about it. Several accomplished sailors recommend it, yet others disparage it. I wonder if this is due to many Junk rigs being built and designed by amateurs?

I am considering using it on a double outrigger sailing canoe rigged as a ketch and have ordered "Practical Junk Rig" to study it further. My interests comes from an interest in older style rigs but also by my need to reef the sail quickly. Thus, the Junk has appealed to me. Plus, I like the idea of sailing SF Bay with a Junk rig. I have never seen one on a boat here, but it used to be very common for working boats in the bay.

Could one of you who suggests that alternatives outline an example? I need a rig for a 24' outrigger sailing canoe that is easily and cheaply built or could be cheaply acquired, can be quickly reefed without having to leave the cockpit, and uses an unstayed mast, as this boat comes apart for easier storage.

I'd really like some suggestions, but the Junk seems closest to these satisfying these constraints.

[Brent Swain]

I can reef my 31 ft marconi main in under a minute . For a light 24 footer it should be even easier . With single line reefing it should be easy from the cockpit. Roller furing makes reefing the jib easy. Far less complex than a junk.

[BeauVrolyk]

Mast Monkey,

I, as one who was disparaging the Junk Rig, should probably reply to your reasonable request for alternatives. First, on a 24' boat that is as light and unstable as an outrigger, you will not need large sails. Indeed, I saw a great example of an insanely simple boat that just had two laser masts mounted. When it blew the boat dropped the after most rig and sailed on the forward rig alone, very simple reefing. The reefing was accomplished by simply pulling the rig out of the socket in the deck and laying it in the bilge.

Similarly, if you really must have a mast that is somewhat fixed, the simplest way to set and strike sails is to have small ones that are set free flying. By that, I mean that your jib has a strong luff rope and you don't go to the bow to set it on hanks as is usually done. Rather, you have a line that leads from the tack of the jib, through a turning block on the bow or bowsprit and back to the cockpit. Similarly, you have a halyard that leads to the cockpit. You then simply hoist the halyard, tighten the downhaul (dragging the sail out to the bow) and once the jib is "set" you haul in the sheet. This is how "flying jibs" were set back "in the day" and it really works wonderfully well. The mainsail can be done in a similar way by not attaching the sail to the mast. Some fear this, but that's from lack of experience. By freeing the sail from the back of the mast you reduce its efficiently, but when it's small you can simply bundle the entire thing up under your arm and stuff it in a bag when it comes time to take it down. I live in San Francisco, and I'm guessing that with our typical winds you'd be just fine with a mainsail about the size of a laser and a small jib.

All of these sorts of rigs, including the lateen etc... are all much lighter and easier to use than a junk rig. Consider the weight of hoisting all those battens, which are not doing anything for you, and the chafe on everything. You'll be fixing the Junk Rig constantly not sailing with it. As you your comment that these rigs were common back "in the day" on SF Bay, I would dispute that. There were a few, but by far the lateen rig was the most common work boat rig, that and the gaff headed cutter or schooner.

Finally, there is a really GOOD reason that not even the Chinese use these rigs anymore - they are a pain in the garboard plank!

Good luck,

Beau

[MastMonkey]

Thanks for the great info. Gives me a lot to think about.

[Wynand N]

Beau and Brent, thanks clearing the Junk issue in a straight and factual manner.:cool:

[Brent Swain]

I remember Moitessier describing his junks he used to sail in SE asia. He told me they used to go down to the market place at the end of a day and pick up the straw mats that the merchants put their stuff on, and start sewing. In a day they had a set of sails made up from straw mats. They would last a week, then it was down to the market to start again. Thus they could keep sailing with very little money . It was these primitive materials as the only ones available which gave rise to junk rigs. No such justification exists today , when the market is awash with cheap used marconi sails in excellent condition, for a fraction the cost of materials..

[Tad]

It is good to know that Jester, a Folkboat rigged with a single Chinese "Junk" Lug sail of 240 square feet could not have beaten two different sloop rigged Folkboats in two races of 3000 miles to windward. Surely the rig would have worn out or fallen down in such a test? :D

The standard Folkboat sloop rig is 262 square feet and has the option of larger headsails....another advantage over the "Junk". But Jester landed in New York 15 days before Val Howells (Eira) in 1960. Four years later they (Hasler and Jester) did it again.....beating Bob Bunker (Vanda Caelea) by 12 days.

In 1972 Ron Glas, a 47' two masted "Junk" schooner finished 24th in a fleet of 40 yachts (almost all Marconi rigged sloops) in the same 3000 mile windward race........but that couldn't happen......it's Junk..... ;)

I'm afraid these results might indicate that the type of rig is only one factor in getting from A to B in a sailing vessel.

[Brent Swain]

I've been told of owners of small planes tieing 2X4s across the top of the wings to eliminate lift, so that a strong wind won't flip them. A junk sail is like a wing with a 2x4 near the leading edge. No lift.
The Atlantic is nowhere near 3,000 miles accross at it's nothern point.
A lot of winning a race is being in the right spot at the right time. If a junk rig is the answer to winning a transatlantic race, then all anyone would have had to do since was use a junk rig, yet it is never done today.
Easy reefing before the advent of good roller furlers and reefing sytems was unavailable at the time, probably a big advatage for Hasler, far less of an advantage today. Reading Hiscocks books, It's amazing the crudeness of reefing systems at the time.
3,000 miles is no test of the resistance to chaffing or reliability of anything today . It's a mere puddle jump.

[pfridays]

I built a Bruce Roberts 26 (fin keel) in the late 70's and sent off to England for Haslar's & McCleod's (sp?) ' Design your own Junk Rig sail plan' instructions. I followed the instructions precisely as to Center of Effort on the sail vs. center of gravity and of effort on the hull etc. I designed and built my own version of what a rudder should be using NACA chord profiles.
The boat sails like a dream, a little weather helm, turns on a dime with no hassle of a foresail, carrys 318 sq. ft. of sail and tachs through 90 degrees with the best of them. Is it quite as fast?...no but I'm not a racer and it is close enough. One of the posters mentioned that he could reef his 31 footer in a minute..but can his 10 year old do it when the sail has alot of pressure on it and a strong gust blows up while he's in the Head? With a Junk when you let the halyard out it spills the wind and reefs. Pull in the main and keep on sailing. I think it is a strong safety factor and all the talk about overwhelming wear and tear from the chaffing is not my experience at all. With the fully battened sail you can also keep right on sailing if you rip a sail. If your boat doesn't point well (i.e. most of Colvins designs) you can always add a foresail (I have not).
For a cruising boat it is my preference and I've sailed all sorts of rigs in my day. Different strokes for different folks.

[gggGuest]

Something that's easily forgotten about traditional rigs was that in many, perhaps even most times and places going upwind was not a priority, and having to go upwind against tide was a demonstration of poor seamanship - a good seaman just wouldn't need to do it: they'd plan their voyage, trip out to the fishing grounds, whatever, for when tide and wind suited or take the direction that tide and wind suited.

On the other hand modern western recreational craft, racing or day cruising, do not want or are unable to accept limitations of upwind performance, and the priorities tend to be very different. Horses for courses.

The drawback of the traditional rigs was of course the harvest of drowned sailors on the comparitively rare occasions a gale caught them on a lee shore and they couldn't get upwind to escape.

A junk rig is pretty poor at going upwind because a competent seaman doing the tasks those boats were rigged for didn't need it to be good upwind. In the early days of transatlantic racing the same applied. However if you will get hell from the wife if the family isn't back home in time for supper, and can only go out after lunch then you need to accept the wind and tide as it is, and had better be able to get upwind against tide...

[brian eiland]

....might make an interesting cross reference of subjects

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-variation-30031.html

[brian eiland]

..another reference discussion

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-pointing-questions-5991.html

[Brent Swain]

I built a Bruce Roberts 26 (fin keel) in the late 70's and sent off to England for Haslar's & McCleod's (sp?) ' Design your own Junk Rig sail plan' instructions. I followed the instructions precisely as to Center of Effort on the sail vs. center of gravity and of effort on the hull etc. I designed and built my own version of what a rudder should be using NACA chord profiles.
The boat sails like a dream, a little weather helm, turns on a dime with no hassle of a foresail, carrys 318 sq. ft. of sail and tachs through 90 degrees with the best of them. Is it quite as fast?...no but I'm not a racer and it is close enough. One of the posters mentioned that he could reef his 31 footer in a minute..but can his 10 year old do it when the sail has alot of pressure on it and a strong gust blows up while he's in the Head? With a Junk when you let the halyard out it spills the wind and reefs. Pull in the main and keep on sailing. I think it is a strong safety factor and all the talk about overwhelming wear and tear from the chaffing is not my experience at all. With the fully battened sail you can also keep right on sailing if you rip a sail. If your boat doesn't point well (i.e. most of Colvins designs) you can always add a foresail (I have not).
For a cruising boat it is my preference and I've sailed all sorts of rigs in my day. Different strokes for different folks.

I don' thave any ten year olds or any other kids( not that I'm aware of)
I singlehand . However, I doubt that letting the wind out of a sail before reefing is illegal for those of us who don't own junk rigs. I doubt if a ten year old would have any trouble with a good winch reefing my main or furling a jib, after the wind has been let out of it.
Same game, lower the halyard, pull in the reefing line, then hoist the halyard again. Dosen't get much simpler
How would you get to BC from Tonga without going to windward, or via Japan? The first 4,000 miles is hard on the wind. If I'd had a a junk rig , going via Japan would be the only option, a hell of a comprimise just to save a half a minute reefing. I've never had a yen to go to Japan.

[capngeoff]

Ahoy you guys, really enjoying the debate; although I just got aboard and read these posts today.

Funny things, opinions: they are usually intensely personal, and should be seen as such.......so express it all, me hearties!
It is just great to read such honest opinions in these forums.
One can learn so much, but to the earnest enquirer requesting guidance on which way to go re sail / rig design , reading such polarised dissertation as displayed herein may confuse, to say the least!:confused:

So here's my tuppence-worth, or nickel n dime's:-

1) Sure; Junk rig is complex to rig initially-there are loads of bits of string and bamboos to attach!:(
It is also a MUCH heavier SAIL than a Marconi, areas being equal!:mad:
BUT proper Junk masts are unstayed, so there are NO huge lengths of shrouds or standing rigging, cross-trees, backstays, bottlescrews, deck fixings, chainplates or other highly stressed metalwork, with its attendant weight & complexity, as with Marconis. :D
So, Junk Rig is really NOT all that heavy in total..and stress is low.

2) Junk rig sails' SHEETS usually end in one rope, but there are LOADS of counter-sheets - usually attached to every batten at or near the leech. This produces a right old cat's cradle sometimes!:rolleyes: This can be a real pain in the ass. There's extra little blocks too....up there hanging off the leech.
BUT you do not need to use a monstrous winch to control the sail like on normal Marconis, nor must one hammer it in until flat midships like some tortured slave on a rack! :P
Junk sheeting is a doddle....saves lotsa human energy.

3) Junk sails are so EASY to reef without altering course-you just let ONE rope ( the halyard) out a bit, and down she comes, easy as pie. Lazyjacks contain the sail neat and sweet. There is no drama, even in a blow and rough seas.
Most Marconi rigs I have sailed cannot perform such reefing without first facing into the wind, and usually altering course.:(

4) Junk sails are CHEAP and easy to build from almost anything. Not all sailors have deep pockets.;)
I have NEVER ripped a junk sail in normal use. No serious chafe either. Some boatyard - damage tears were simply taped up, and sailed on for years without further stitching or patches needed. The fabric is not highly stressed.

5) Junk sails look good. :cool:
OK - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but my Junk is always swamped by visitors & photographers when she sails into port.
Marconis look good too, but much less interesting.:o

6) Junk rigs are sustainable! Guess what, they grow on trees..... ;-0)
OK, I do have some Egyptian cotton Marconis in me loft, but bamboos and tree trunks just keep growing, fast and cheap.

7) Junk rigs have many many many shapes and forms...almost lateen to square, and many variants on each format.
Marconis tend to be triangular. ( though modern racers are getting flat-topped, with big battens)

8) Generalisations have few uses, just like specialists:-
9) Junk rigged boats sail fast.
Marconi rig boats sail fast.
10) Junk boats sail slow
Marconi boats sail slow.

11) Junks have better deck space: much less clutter from wires and stays.

12) Junks heel less sharply than Marconi rigged boats.

13) Junks DO go to windward, when sailed right.
I can take the luff right up to the mast, using the snotters.
Hence there is NO "S" shape resulting with battens pressed against the mast, as suggested by one forum-quote. The pressure exerted on such a small area fails to bend any battens properly sized.
Of course, if the batten is OFF the mast, the sail shape and wind's clear access is fantastic....even better than a tracked Marconi sail, I venture.
I will try to illustrate this effect as seen on my Junk. ( please see pics added below:- these show her going to windward, with both sail luffs almost on their masts' circumferences.)
Marconis DO go to windward when sailed right.

14) Junk rig saves money.
OK, I accept that some lucky sailors can scrounge a free secondhand Marconi sail if they know where to ask( lucky sods)....but where do they get free NEW stainless steel rigging, bottlescrews and fittings, when their insurance surveyor insists upon its replacement ? ( he insists because SS rigging is so highly stressed, it fails unexpectedly and the Marconi mast falls into the ocean taking its sail with it...eeeek)

15) Junk sails make damn fine Biminis or hammocks or both.......or even teepees if you want to stay on that beach/island a bit longer.......:p

16) Junk battens DO break sometimes.....but they mend real easy.
Marconi rigs break sometimes too.......but they SURE aint easy to mend.

17) Junk rig is SAFER as the stresses are so much lower, and one is much less likely to be concussed/killed/MOB'd by a recalcitrant boom gybe, as often seen with Marconis.
Junk "booms" are not really such: usually they're just another batten, small and light, so it hurts a lot less if it DOES skelp yer heid. ( Ecosse:- bash one's brains)

18) Junk rig is SUPERB for long cruises where wind is aft...you can rig the sails across the masts for perfect square-rigged trades sailing.

19) Junks DO tack well, when the helmsman knows what he is doing.

20) Junks GYBE superbly, with no fuss nor winch-handle terrors.



Hope some of the above makes sense to some o' youse-it IS all true in my experience; no ******** was used here (honest!) , and I have sailed / built /designed/ owned all the types discussed, plus gaff, lug and lateen.

Somehow I seem always to gravitate to Junk or Gaff sails though....no offence to Mr.Marconi or lovely Bermuda.......


I think personally I just like the look, the feel, the semi-organic nature of "trad" rigs. Something about pointy-topped sails leaves me cold.:)

Mind you, I have noticed a few damn good -looking Marconi/gaff rigs lately, like the superb modern ocean racer BOSS, a carbon black beauty...in fact she and I were heading SW out of the Clyde on the same tack one lumpy evening, what a sight to see she was!
Of course she soon romped off, heeled over like a tequila drunk! .......mind you, her sails were wide at the top, with massive battens all the way down.........maybe we can see a pattern here?;) :p :idea:
My Junk also heeled over as BOSS departed for the Open Golf at Turnberry, but only about 6 degrees "hard" on the wind; she is no racer, but still, she made the windward island port as planned, after nightfall.

Not all junk rigs are wood and bamboo grass-derived:- there are plenty of kevlar/carbon/titanium using Junkies out there.....heck, I even have tried some kevlar and carbon-mix battens.....cunningly disguised as bamboos with their unique green-black-baked epoxy weave exposed. So much for green credentials huh? But I recycled them.....from Olympic canoe paddle shaftings.
Bamboos are nicer for me I reckon, after trying GRP pultrusions, alloys and Carbons.

Blimey, I rabbited on a lot longer than intended.........

Happy Christmas and a Guid New Year to all, with Fair Winds.:)

[Brent Swain]

All the junks I know over 40 feet need a big monsterous winch to get the sail up.
We are awash in used marconi sails in good shape for less than the cost of materials for a junk sail not counting the time to build them. They are very easy to find in used boaters exchanges.
Junks only sail to windward well in flat water.
I've never bought new stainless rigging, turnbuckles etc, in nearly 40 years of cruising. Enough galv wire to rig a 36 footer costs about$15 in a scrapyard. New 5/8th galv turnbuckles cost about $21 each . Just bought some new ones last summer, after getting 25 years and six Pacific crossings out of the old ones. Galv is far more structurally reliable. Doesn't fail without warning. I wouldn't let an insurance salesman force me to use unreliable rigging. He will be in a warm house when it fails me at sea. .
That's like quoting the cost of a new cadilac and chauffeur in giving the cost of transportation. Sure looks like ******** to me.
Junks attract visitors and spectators , because oddballs swimming against the stream, ignoring the well proven, are interesting. Doesn't mean they are right, just oddballs. They are rare for good reasons.

[capngeoff]

Vive la Difference!

Glad you get so many bargains there,sailor! You are a lucky man.

My view is ALL sailing is good - whatever layout sends your boat afloat along.......I love 'em all....but some more than others.
I have no gripe with any sail types.

My main Junk is made of wood, about 50 ft, 17 tons and has no sail winches.
No standing rigging; just simple cheap poles of wood for masts.

Also sail a wooden Grand Banks Dory, 23feet, about 1/2 ton.
The mast is a cut-down pole from an electricity supply line, and her sail is a hardware-store tarp made for covering anything, a whole £5 ($8)worth brand new, with "hi-tech" battens of plastic drainpipes from house plumbing.( had no bamboos handy that day)
She has no keel, no foresail and no engine.
Anyhow, she sailed me around the islands reliably enough. 38678

38679

38680
Named her Howard Blackburn after the Dory hero from America.
Poor guy near froze to death, rowed to land after losing his mother ship in fog:- with his hands frozen to the oars, deliberately. His shipmate died. Eskimos found him more dead than alive, & cured him. In 1883.
On his return to "civilisation" sans digitsfrom frostbite, he became famous & rich. So he single-handed sailed the Atlantic to Britain. Jeez.

The other junk pic is "China Blue" a Jester copy sailed by Captain Tim. He had just won the OSTAR derived Challenge in record time across Atlantic waters. Here he is tacking outta a wee Scottish sea-loch, as seen from my Junk. This was a chance meeting, after many junk rigged sea-miles....in just 22feet of efficient sailing machine.


Weather in my home waters is pretty unpredictable, katabatic blasts entertain, along with mad tide races, reefs n unforgiving rocky cliffs, oft hidden behind Scotch Mists......yet I see other Junk-rigged vessels navigating these waters , and meet with junkers, square riggers, gaffers and bermudans. Single-handed sailing is my norm, but sometimes the wife & 3 kids come along too,so it's good to know the big junk is safe.


So I just would like to let folk know that Junk Rig works good; for me and a lot of others. So does Marconi / Bermudan, Gaff and allsorts.


Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, and all sail-powered folk.:) ( And engine-powered 'uns!)

[ancient kayaker]

Brent: we oddballs have more fun IMHO :)

Reading this thread has given me an idea, as if I needed another one. I am planning to build a square rig for my small sailboat. A true oddball has no need to ask why, as for the rest of you - don't ask :cool:

So it now occurs to me that, if I design the yards so they can be offset to one side, I am getting into junk territory. Good to know; just in case the square rigger doesn't get enough attention that is ... also solves the challenge of sail handling during tacking.