Dealing with pirates

[dave L]

Not sure if this is the right forum.. but here goes.

An Australian sailor in the last few days has found himself embroiled in a situation where he was arrested in indonesia for "Gun smuggling" a couple of rifles and a hand gun plus lots of ammo was found on his converted freighter. the Sailor claims the guns were to ward off Pirates. Here is the link to the news story. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=23142


It got me thinking. Has anyone ever heard of pirates being encountered either indirectly or directly?
What can you do to mitigate the problem of pirates short of not going where they are renowned to hang out....Is it possible to design a "panic-room" or similar into the boat or would you be better off carrying weapons with you like the afore mentioned sailor.

For those professionals amoungst this forum a question for you.....Have any of your customers asked you to design a vessel with pirate work arounds?

[B. Hamm]

There are places that have this problem, best advice is to stay away from those areas. They are very well armed and in powerful boats, you will neither out gun them nor out run them.

Bill H.

[fcfc]

I have not seen or heard of direct hard "pirate" case, but 2 "legal" pirate cases (both more than 15 years ago)
I have seen in indian ocean islands (Not french, not commonwealth) guys in jail and their boat seized for some weeks by local naval army. Needed the help of french ambassy to go out of this situation. Local naval army (with 30mm cannon and .5 machine gun on their patrol boat) simply found that 2 bearded guys on a 50 ft sailboat was abnormal and took them for spies. The boat was being delivered from france to french islands by 2 professional sailors.

The other case was in another island where a passing-by boat had the very very bad luck of being the kind the local custom chief officer enjoys. The boat has been seized by the local customs for an arbitrary reason, "stolen" while seized, and later renamed, and made with local "official" papers. The boat insurance was alerted by the owner. The insurance had proof that it is the same boat, but all actions in the local court lead to nothing except bribes and fines as high as the boat value. Court declared the owner was responsible for his goods while seized, not the customs.
Perhaps the owner will get his boat back when the custom officer will think it is time to replace his boat with a newer one.

[MikeJohns]

Piracy in many of the poorer areas ( particularly the Muslim areas of Indonesia, Africa, Malasia and Southern Thialand ) is increasingly a concern. Many boardings in these areas are by poorly armed groups sometimes with only one old firearm. Sometimes the Pirates have only knives and superiority of numbers.
I guess the easy solution is either to sail in groups or to plan your route to avoid problem areas.
A freind of mine carries a shotgun, he swears that firing it into the air saved them from being boarded after they were chased by a fishing boat for several hours one night sailing through Indonesian waters.

[RThompson]

It seems that many things can result in piracy.
Likewise there are many ways to avoid it.

There are "professional" well equipped pirates targetting merchant ships.

There are powerful and corrupt local authorities (most ocean cruising yachts I'v known seem to develope standard customs/local official bribery systems)
Maybe in the same basket you could put bored navies/coast guards.

Then there are opportunistic fishermen.

The common thread is generally the geographical locations of the piracy.

(And don't forget the privately funded "pirate" ice-breaker accused of ramming illegal whaling ships.)

As far as defenses are concerned I'v witnessed things like demountable machine guns/rocket launchers, rifles and shot guns, hand guns, electrified life lines and so on.
I was on board a yacht once in the Timor Sea when we were chased by a fishing boat. Assuming they had nasty intentions we fled. Our defense then was speed.
An associate of mine was aboard a large steel yacht that was attacked at sea in southern America. They hid behind the steel coamings until the pirate vessel (a fast motor boat) was close then they started shooting back. The attacker, 10 or so men armed with automatic rifles, immediately turned and left the area. Their defense was a steel yacht and their own guns (and some would say stupidity)

I'v heard stories of crews showing no defense and just giving the pirates evry thing in return for no violence, conversely there's also stories of crews showing no defense and being murdered in return.
I guess it depends on what sort of pirates you intend on grappling with...

The current news story:
I think it would be a very unfortunate precedent to set if the skipper of an private ocean going vessel is punished for having arms onboard, especially when he is in a pirate prone area.
A vessel of that size carrying a handful of hand guns (pun intended) is no cause for concern. The fact that they were not declared in that area is almost standard procedure. If you declare your (late model/good condition) arms to the local authority there is a good chance they will "confiscate" them,(or charge a high bribe) leaving you with nothing for the remainder of you voyage through pirated seas. The amunition? Well, how long does it take for several (5?) automatic guns/rifles to go through 2000 rounds in a fire-fight.
(American's should be hot about this one - something about the right to bear arms?)

Ocean going culture hasn't changed a lot in the last few hundred years, and I don't expect it will.

Rob

[dave L]

So I guess it comes down to 3 options

1) Avoid the areas completely, and not see many beautiful sailing grounds
2) Arm yourself and risk the repercussions of having firearms onboard but potentially saving yourself.
3) Leave it to chance that you wont get harmed should anyone decide you look like a tempting target.

What exactly does international law say you are entitled to do? I realise that if you are sailing in a countries waters then you are subject to their laws ( or whatever the local cops demand).

Has anyone heard of electronic systems that could broadcast a pirate distress signal or somthing. I imagine in this day and age of technology that you could send satellites info on course, location, souls on board etc. The only question is wether help could get to you in time? :(

[dave L]

And don't forget the privately funded "pirate" ice-breaker accused of ramming illegal whaling ships.)

RThompson... I forgot to ask. What is the story with ramming whalers?
Although I dont advocate ramming of vessels, it is certainly a unique approach to a problem that international law cant seem to fix. Especially considering the Japanese are whaling in Australian Antartic Waters. :(

[RThompson]

Dave,

My knowledge of the ramming is a bit sketchy, but this is what I remember of it:

Maybe three or four years ago there was a bit of media attention aimed at
some incidents in a northern sea. Apparently a (Norwegian?) ice-breaker would approach a ship in the process of illegal whaling and ask them to stop, when they declined the ice-breaker would line them up and ram them. (I imagine an ice-breaker has a certain advantage in this regard ;) ) - I think it happened 2 or 3 times.
As ramming ones ship into another's is considered impolite by some people, it was declared a pirate (privateer?) acting illegally. However I believe the ship found itself with a substantial (clandestine) international support network.
I'v no idea of the outcome.

Someone else may have a more accurate description of events. or maybe a website?
Rob

PS I forgot the last defense - dress in rags, and don't have a boat that looks worthwhile attacking... -its certainly the cheapest option all round

[cameronke]

Hello all

I believe the group that you describe are called "Sea Shepherd"

http://www.seashepherd.org/index.html

The main man, Paul Watson was one of the founders of Greenpeace but found their methods a little tame!

He left to found Sea Shepherd and take a slightly more direct action.

I saw a documentary about them where they had a converted Arctic trawler with its Focsle filled with concrete and Huge spikes sticking from the sides and he was going after illegal drift netters in the Pacific. If he found any he would insist that they cease their activity. If they did not they were rammed and their driftnets destroyed.

One mans pirate may be anothers eco-warrior!

Regards
Cameron

[FAST FRED]

IN some areas Urban Pirates abound.

Having lived aboard in New York City for 23 years , and sailed the Carribean for a decade , there are many EZ solutions.

Simplest is a Sears 12V cattle fence unit , hooked to all the lifelines (bare wire) and all the ungrounded shrouds.
This stops the bum boat boys from hanging on , or unwanted guests dockside.

Second is a unit called Bugalarmist , which is a trip wire (or electric with delay) setup that expells Mace into the boat.

They may break in while your gone , but wont go below.
Airing out and internal washdown are needed if triggered.

While aboard a simple mat with electric switching can turn on the horn & spreader lights , with a 5 min lock ON. This works well in most marinas.

This is only a start , there are many other methods to deter scum , but not all are "legal" in some Burocratic Kingdomes.

FAST FRED

[RThompson]

Yes Cameron,
Thats who I'm talking about, thanks for the link.
My story was just about perfect...there was a boat (or two) involved, Norway was mentioned, whales are part of it -what more do you need?
;)

Certainly an inspiring website.
Maybe I'll go to Japan for holidays...

FastFred's got some pretty nifty ideas.
Rob

[Mick]

Here is a link to the Weekly Piracy Report on the International Chamber of Commerce website. There were 10 or so piracy incidents reported this past week.

http://www.iccwbo.org/ccs/imb_piracy/weekly_piracy_report.asp

Mick

[Portager]

Under no circumstances would I take a fire arm into a foreign country. It is one of those cases where the down-side potential far exceeds the up-side potential.

My first defense will be to avoid cruising solo in dangerous areas.

Second, we plan on taking our dogs along. In our case that will be two 120 lb Great Pyrenees. I think most pirates will look for easier targets once they get a look at our puppies.

Even if your attackers have more speed than you, you can use your wake as a defensive weapon. By following a zigzag course and turning away if they try to go come along side, you can slow them down.

You can also use a flare gun which is legal to have onboard. I’d fire the first shot up as a warning and as a call for help. If the Pirates persisted, I’d fire the second shot into their boat.

Finally, I plan to mount a remote controlled fire hose or water monitor as they are known on fire boats. The flow rate is 170 gpm @ 175 psi and the reach is 170 feet. The flow rate is enough to swamp small boats in a few minutes and at closer range the impact can knock people overboard. The remote controlled monitors are more expensive, but it allows the crew (me) to fire from the safety of the pilothouse. In addition the pump to power the water monitor will provide an emergency bilge pump and with a diverter valve the output can power nozzles to provide bow and stern thrusters.

Regards;
Mike Schooley

[woodboat]

From the link
27.11.2004 at 0910 UTC in posn: 05:02N - 098:28E, Malacca straits.
Pirates armed with machine guns in a fishing boat opened fire and boarded a tug towing a barge. They kidnapped captain and C/O and stole ships property and escaped in their boat.

Those guys with Machine guns are going to really be afraid of some dogs, your wake and your flares? Wait, I know, like you said travel as a group that way they have to be afraid of a bunch of flare guns.

[tarrysailor]

Listen, forget doing dumb things like using firehoses against armed men. And forget hiding out in secret rooms. And forget using mace or pepper spray. I suppose, when you were a kid and someone wrestled you down into the mud, you said, "I can't wrestle you because my mama told me not to get muddy." Grow up.

I can tell you all about guns. After all, the U.S. Army drafted me, now didn't it? The most natural thing in the world to do with a gun is to use your finger. I don't mean your pinky. I mean the one that naturally lies on the trigger. When a pirate tries to board your ship, you had better assume he's going to do what comes natural. And that means with your pretty wife and daughter, too.

What you do need onboard is a hiding place for your guns, called a 'stash,' and an unloaded decoy pop gun mounted on a wall for local authorities to find and bribe you for. Get on the internet and find books on stashes, secret compartments and suchlike. Make them childproof! Make them teenager proof! And don't carry around an armory or a boatload of drugs. That makes you the criminal.

Dogs are an excellent idea. Yes, you can train them yourself and it is easy to learn how. They can be trained to use a doggie do, too.

[Portager]

Don't confuse pirates boarding commercial ships with those boarding private yachts. There are two very different threats and one is not my problem.

Regards;
Mike Schooley

[RThompson]

Don't confuse pirates boarding commercial ships with those boarding private yachts. There are two very different threats and one is not my problem.

Regards;
Mike Schooley


Yes, although commercial shipping piracy seems to have a better victim survival rate.

Rob

[Portager]

Can you validate that claim?

Regards;
Mike Schooley

[RThompson]

Can I validate my suggestion?

HA! Not at all -totally wild and unfounded speculation. :)

Well actually I probably say it because I'v heard more murderous stories of yachts than commercial shipping, and the "online piracy report" cited earlier
suggests there are numerous acts of (commercial) piracy reported. Of course attacks on private yachts are not necessarily reported.

Also, how do you differeniate between the pirates targetting ships, and pirates taking pot shots at yachts?
Obviously some ship pirate's are highly organised semi-professional outfits, whereas others are opportunistic fishermen and the like. (commonly accepted theory of piracy in Asia)
A yacht would seem an easy target to an armed fisherman who's prepared to attack a ship.

One shouldn't suggest for a moment that anyone dealt with the piracy issue in any way they were not comfortable with. As I suggested in an earlier post, people have reacted to pirates in various ways, with varied results. As has also been suggested (and I would agree) the most assured way to avoid piracy is to avoid pirate prone areas.

Rob

[Portager]

I have studied pirate problem both professionally and for personal interest.

The storries and tales that get passed around the marina are sometimes exagerated a little at the start, increasing exponentially with each recital.

In my professional life, I do weapon system integration and electro-optical fire control systems. The attached image shows my companies boat on which I am responsible for the fire control system. This system consists of a 30mm chain gun capable of firing 200 rounds per minute with dispersion less than 1 mrad at 2 km. This would be a very effective weapon against pirates. I have tried unsucessfully to interest foreign countries in acquiring this capability as a means of dealing with their pirate problems. It turns out most of those countries are not interested in dealing with the piracy problem. As long as it doesn't get too out of control it is cheaper to ignore it. It is also seen as a form on unemployment relief that is funded by the insurance carriers of the shipping companies. To deal with the problem they would need to purchase expensive equipment, hire and train additional Coast Guard crews, ... Therefore they try and get the pirates to restrict their attacks to merchant ships since that has little impact on the tourist industry.

Most of the attacks on private yachts occur in the Caribbean and they are carried out as a means of acquiring a yachts for drug smuggling. These attacks rarely end in rape or murder because the penality for that is higher than drug running. Now that the US Coast Guard is searching more boats, including US registered boats, these attacks have fallen off considerable. The remaining attacks are basically petty theft on the high seas. In most cases it pays to follow the coast so that you are in controlled waters instead of international waters.

Regards;
Mike Schooley

[Richard Petersen]

If you do not want pirate trouble, why do you go into their waters, delibertly challenging them to come and get your American boat and lives? YOU are worse than them. Usually, 2 types of people go into those waters. Naive travelers and people who do business with one of the groups. Rich

[Portager]

That’s like blaming the victims of drunk drivers for being on the road. I try to avoid traveling when the bars are closing, but if I get hit in the middle of the afternoon or at 2:00 AM it is still the drunk drivers fault.

My original post started with,

My first defense will be to avoid cruising solo in dangerous areas.

It is relatively easy to avoid the coast of Nigeria and you can skirt the coast of Somalia without too much trouble, however avoiding the Malaccan Straights requires circumnavigating the Australian continent and avoiding the Red Sea requires circumnavigating the African continent. In the latter case you would need to pass near Nigeria and Somalia and round Cape Horn. I’m pretty sure the Red Sea would be less dangerous. So the choice is basically stay home or take your chances. I'll take my chances and hedge my bets by caravanning through the Red Sea.

Another thing, how do I know the pirates will stay in their waters? Is their a line drawn on a pirate map that clearly delineates where their waters are? Do I get to see that map or is it for their eyes only?

Regards;
Mike Schooley

[CT 249]

I have studied pirate problem both professionally and for personal interest.

The storries and tales that get passed around the marina are sometimes exagerated a little at the start, increasing exponentially with each recital.

In my professional life, I do weapon system integration and electro-optical fire control systems. The attached image shows my companies boat on which I am responsible for the fire control system. This system consists of a 30mm chain gun capable of firing 200 rounds per minute with dispersion less than 1 mrad at 2 km. This would be a very effective weapon against pirates. I have tried unsucessfully to interest foreign countries in acquiring this capability as a means of dealing with their pirate problems. It turns out most of those countries are not interested in dealing with the piracy problem. As long as it doesn't get too out of control it is cheaper to ignore it. It is also seen as a form on unemployment relief that is funded by the insurance carriers of the shipping companies. To deal with the problem they would need to purchase expensive equipment, hire and train additional Coast Guard crews, ... Therefore they try and get the pirates to restrict their attacks to merchant ships since that has little impact on the tourist industry.

Most of the attacks on private yachts occur in the Caribbean and they are carried out as a means of acquiring a yachts for drug smuggling. These attacks rarely end in rape or murder because the penality for that is higher than drug running. Now that the US Coast Guard is searching more boats, including US registered boats, these attacks have fallen off considerable. The remaining attacks are basically petty theft on the high seas. In most cases it pays to follow the coast so that you are in controlled waters instead of international waters.

Regards;
Mike Schooley


That's disgusting.....

Why are you spending your time using all that firepower on pirates, when you could be using it where it's needed - to take out jet skiers?????

[Richard Petersen]

Skiers are OK. Shoot some of the Cormorants and Geese!! Rich

[Trini/Venezuala]

Be careful leaving Chaguaramas and going to Venezuala without some serious fire power! I'm not getting into it but that is all I can tell you.

[FAST FRED]

Not much effort is required to eliminate Jet Skiers.

Simply take some 2 or 3 ft hunks of polly like (THAT FLOATS) and strip them into the very fine strands their made of.

Toss them in the water in as large a pattern as you can .

When sucked in the jet pump they melt and heat weld the pump into a solid lump.

Takes complete disassembly (and sometines new seals ) to get the toy functioning again.

Best of all a large patch will disable 5 or 6 at once , so ALL have to swim towing their toys .

A really fine sport and great way to recycle old line!

Pass this HINT on to others assaulted by these fools.

FAST FRED

[sailsnail]

Be careful leaving Chaguaramas and going to Venezuala without some serious fire power! I'm not getting into it but that is all I can tell you.

I can confirm that!

|>

[D'ARTOIS]

That is really great Fred.....

[B. Hamm]

Hope you have your attorney on speed dial :)

Bill H.

[freeagent]

Originally posted by CT 249:
Why are you spending your time using all that firepower on pirates, when you could be using it where it's needed - to take out jet skiers?????

Rotflmao!! :D :D :D


Seeing the pic of Portagers heavily armed company boat gave me an Idea. Start a business that recovers vessels and properties stollen by pirates!! It should be called Repirate!! :idea:

[DGreenwood]

All you need are some Military aircraft, like this lucky guy.
http://www.boatingchannel.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/00513.1.1684250752516817152


Some days work out better than others!

[Richard Petersen]

When you enter another countries waters WELL OUTSIDE the established tourist areas, you are daring them to come and get you. You are rubbing their faces in the dirt. Why is it so hard to beleive? They do work with a spotter in a surface search radar site, civilian and or military. They should have the legal protection of their nearby home port. Yachts do not have the right to TEASE these people!!!!

[Bob Leask]

Just did a circumnavigation, and personally was never threatened. A lot of the reports from Indonesia are either good stories (everybody likes a good story) or paranoia. I was chased by a fishing boat there. No way I could outrun them. When they came alongside, the only word of English they knew was "whisky". I didn't have any, and they went away. I was also chased many times in latin america. In every case, they were trying to mooch something, especially booze. I think most reports of piratical fishermen are bogus. Fishermen in general are hard working people, with a high operating overhead. I think most of them have better things to do.

The southern Caribbean around the coast of Venezuela is another matter. I know of two real cases near Trinidad. While I was there one skipper was killed by people who boarded his catamaran. Apparently they stole a bit of pocket cash and a cellphone. He got shot trying to fight them. Not a very good bargain.

There are also real cases of organized piracy in the Red Sea. Why people go there is beyond me. The route around South Africa is much easier. The Mediterranean is a lousy place to go these days, unless you have lots of money and don't mind crowded anchorages and obnoxious incompetent boaters everywhere. The Red Sea is definitely a place to avoid, but that's not a problem.

The best strategy would be to make your boat as near impregnable as possible, easy if it's metal. Not many pirates will be carrying metal cutting equipment and with the hatches locked securely, not much they could do to you. I've heard of people doing that and the outside of the boat stripped of anything valuable while they hid below. I think carrying firearms to defend yourself is silly. Ever tried shooting from the deck of a boat? I used to be an expert marksman on land, but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from a boat. It might make some people feel better but in fact it's not going to help you, and might get you into more trouble than you were in to begin with. That gnarly looking boat coming at you might have the local police chief onboard coming to check you out.

[MikeJohns]

Designing for pirates

This account is interesting and savage

http://www.noonsite.com/text/Members/doina/R2005-03-14-1

The passive approach is probably have good lockable hatches and somewhere bullet proof to hide inside. Then hand out the money through the coffee hatch!

If you arm yourself you want a high power sporting rifle to outrange the pirates. Close in a flame thrower would be legal to carry and very effective.

Sems we need a few decoy yachts operated by various navies to stamp this out, probably a very limited number of people engage in this behaviour.

[Mikey]

Very interesting thread but for those who still think illegal fire arms is a good option - I wouldn't carrying any fire arms illegally when entering Malaysian waters. While it Sometimes is possible to bribe yourself out of a situation like that in Indonesia, forget it in Malaysia and you even risk jail.

Moving day time only is maybe the best defence. I wouldn't worry about pirates sailing from Singapore up to Thailand if it was day time anyway. Going south from Singapore is a different matter, guess I would still do it, the risk is still low and pirates won't hurt you as long as you give them what you have... Unless you are really really unlucky.

Relax guys - They don't want to kill you, they just want your things, OK?

A friend of mine got chased by a speedboat while taking an Egg Harbor Yachts designed Pace 40 from Japan to Thailand through the Malaccan Streight (ten hours out of Singapore at 8 knots) night time about a year ago. My friend comment was - Shouldn't have done that, stupid of me, next time I'll move day time...

Good boat by the way, survived the tsunami too, at wide open throttles getting out from the beach.

The pirates used a ~32' plywood speedboat, with 2 200+ HP outboards (diesel sound travel further), 35 - 40 knots max, they are pretty common over here. The speedboat could eat up the distance but they couldn't board. Not as easy as one thinks to board a Sportsfisher with 2*435 CAT at WOT if the driver doesn't want them too. The pirates did not carry any fire arms, or didn't use them anyway.

Mikey

[Bob Leask]

After reading the above link I'm now reconsidering what I wrote about going unarmed, I know Rod and Becky and glad to hear they made it unhurt. Congratulations to Rod.

The first thing that comes to mind is bafflement as to why so many cruisers are still choosing the Red Sea route. South Africa is much easier, and infinitely safer. I wouldn't do the Red Sea for anything. The list of incidents like this one is long and growing.

As for carrying arms, having the right weaponry and knowing how to use it could save your life. I think the latter is the most important and calls for serious self asessment. Rod is ex military and obviously knows how to handle himself in a fight.

Consider what might have happened if it had been someone with a small caliber rifle who was not the best marksman, or worse yet, a handgun. In that case, Mahdi being a steel boat, I'm sure the "better part of valor" would have been the best option. Just go below and lock up.

[yoshi]

well ive seen a pirate boats when sailing down from miami to panama and around also indonesia with big mounted machine guns on front and guy on board with AK's.
personlly i carry a couple of machette's(big knifes) and a naval standard flare gun which is the size of a sawn off elephant gun with has huge cartriges that are enough to blow a hole in a boat or through a pirate. and make a big enough bang to scare them off first
the best thing about having a big ass flare gun is that they are legal and extremly hand for sending an SOS as they are far more visable than a normal flare gun.
;)
regards,
josh miller

[D'ARTOIS]

What this all means gentlemen, that we are slowly moving into times of the 18th and 18th century. The Malaccan Street problems are widely known - still there is not a single govrment sticking out a little finger to counter this increasing problem. OK we are touching politics and I know that Jeff doesn't want such topics but the fact of piracy hits any of us who sails the world - and a lot of us do.
It is not very wise to have arms on board whilst sailing in Europe, that i found out myself threatened with 2 weeks imprisonment hen they found my .30-.30;

and keep one thing in mind: it is said earlier! a boat is not a real good shooting platform so get yoursel a riot gun with a number of "brennekes" they use it in France for the deer & wild boar hunt. Lethal effective within 40 yards range.

What Bob Leask says over avoiding the Suez Canal and Red Sea is without any doubt correct and all countries bordering the Red Sea are nests of pirates that can re-equip themselves easily thanks to the massive arms-exports of the ex USSR.

The but is that......the whole of West-Africa is at civil war and day and night west-africans run with heir boats on the hunt for easy targets. So if you follow Bob's advices, make sure that you give the whole of Africa a very wide berth.

to be continued

[mackid068]

I've heard of many piracy cases, but primarily with commercial freighters. These freighters used fire hoses (the powerful IMO or SOLAS required ones I guess) to ward off pirates. Maybe use flare to kill them? That might work...fire a parachute flare into their head or torso will do away with them.

[mackid068]

Designing for pirates

This account is interesting and savage

http://www.noonsite.com/text/Members/doina/R2005-03-14-1
Sems we need a few decoy yachts operated by various navies to stamp this out

Why not? US navy should buy some huge trawler and outfit it with hidden guns and hide SEALS in it (Lol!) and drive it off North Africa. It'd scare the **** out of the pirates. But seriously, perhaps hide some guns in a yacht owned by the USN and wait for them while presenting an enticing target.

[Bob Leask]

As D'artois points out Africa in general is a good part of the world to avoid. The best way to cope with piracy is to avoid them. However South Africa is an exception. I spent over six months there and can say with certainty that it isn't dangerous, at least in terms of sea piracy. I actually recommend it, I enjoyed it. It's a little worrisome on the streets, though. The same principle applies. Stay away from places like JoBerg and don't even think about visiting Soweto. There are also lots of yachts in Namibia, but I didn't go there.

As for weapons, I think it's true that piracy is a throwback to the 18th century, so probably the best weapon would come from the same period. Cast up an old fashioned swivel gun, load her up with lots of grape and black powder, and fire in the right general direction. Those things were designed to sweep boarders off the deck, and by all accounts they worked pretty well.

You could also claim that it isn't a real gun, it's a non functional decoration, and the Customs officials might believe it. Let's think of what you could disguise it as.................

[Free Pirate]

If you're sailing around in a yacht that looks like it cost you a million dollars and looks like new, pirates probably won't hesitate to attack you. You're a perfect target, rich enough to flaunt your wealth and dumb enough to flaunt it near pirates. If you have a boat that is really great but looks like a floating piece of junk, no matter what the inside looks like, pirates might not make an effort. That's the best defense if you can't avoid high-piracy areas. That motorboat with two machine guns and a turret that someone here posted a link two is probably the second best :).

Keep in mind that no amount of money is worth your life, and it's better to be robbed than robbed and shot.

[woodboat]

it's better to be robbed than robbed and shot
The story on the link clearly stated that the pirates came in shooting with the intent to kill then rob.
The boats separated at about 200 yards, one boat ahead of the other, coming down Mahdi’s port side and firing into the cockpit. The other boat was firing an automatic weapon at both Gandalf and Mahdi from ahead, more at Gandalf. These guys were shooting directly at the cockpits, and obviously intended to kill us. The days of being nice to thieves and terrorist are over. If I knew with out a doubt that handing over the cash would result in no injury to myself and crew of course I would do it but that simply isn't the way it works today. You hear all the time about someone handing over the money and getting killed anyway.

[Skippy]

woodboat: The days of being nice to thieves and terrorist are over. If I knew with out a doubt that handing over the cash would result in no injury to myself and crew of course I would do it but that simply isn't the way it works today.

Do you have statistics on that, wb? Any data to suggest that a physically aggressive response really is likely to be more effective and/or less dangerous in most cases?

[woodboat]

I have not spent any time investigating actual statistics for aggressive response vs a passive one. I have two anecdotal events which we know is a weak way to argue. I have the link in this thread and Sept 11th with planes as bombs. What I have also observed though is a masive shift in recommendedations from groups at least where I live. For example womens groups would always recommend that the woman go passive when attacked and that they would be left unharmed. The local authorities no longer recommend that. They say their best chance is to kick, scream and fight as if their life depended on it. So in my local bubble, the Baltimore area, the criminal would be just as likely to kill you over nothing. And of course right down the street is Washington D.C. affectionatly known as the murder capital of the world. I know that Virginia, the other side of D.C. has adopted a gun carry law and their crime rate is much lower than ours. I also know that when there was a string of car jackings in Florida that resulted in murder they quickly allowed their citizens to keep guns in the cars. Car jackings are no longer a problem. So again I have noticed a shift from officials but haven't seen a study one way or the other.

[D'ARTOIS]

At least I do, Skippy. And it is getting worth, particular in the Malaccan Street area.
But also the area between Indonesia and Australia. Look at the number of attacks!
Piracy is getting an increasing problem, negelcted by politicians - for they have nothing to gain in that corner.
If the pirates are throwing us back into the 18th century, answer them with measurements derived from that era.
Don't rely on local governments, they are absolutely not interested in your well being and are mostly the instignators of the forementioned sea-raids.

I remember me talking to a Russian captain of a 10.000 dwt merchant vessel who showed me his aresenal: from teargas grenades till .50 machineguns, alike the M.60 and no limits to use them when worse comes to worse.
They were often attacked by Nigerians when lying ahull near Port Harcourt, -
one or two handgrenades silenced them mostly off and Russian ships were avoided like the pest, when repeatedly welcomed by a string of bullets/grenades.

[mackid068]

I think anyone with a brain in their head would avoid *ANYONE* with an M60, providing they can fire it. It'd rip a fiberglass or wood boat to shreds, might not sink it but it can certainly (if a well placed shot were to hit there) destroy the engines, crew or gasoline tanks.

[Mikey]

The Malaccan Straight has been a pirate infested area for years. D'Artois attachment 1 shows 37 attacks from north Indonesia and 8 further south. I bet all of the 37 attacks were coming out of Indonesia. During how long time is that?

There has been rumours circulating for ages that influential pirate gangs get = bribe Indo military for info about suitable targets, don't know if it is true of course, could very well be.

It would be interesting to know how many of those, if any, where anyone on a pleasure yacht got hurt if he did NOT resist. For the Malaccan Straight area anyway, still think that pirates would not kill "if they didn't have to", they would just steal the things. Possibly very different in other places.

[woodboat]

Mikey, I too would be interested to see the statistics. Unfortunatly I read articles like this http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/23/1095651473979.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true what seems like Everday.
A blurb
Geoffrey Jin handed two service-station robbers his wallet, mobile phone and $200 from the till, but was killed anyway in an "unprovoked act of violence against a compliant victim", a court has heard.

[dionysis]

Its a difficult thing isn't it.

Arms may only scare off possible pirates who have less weaponry and who are perhaps opportunists, but probably will not scare off those who have more weaponry and are determined.

If you are armed, then you better be prepared to pull the trigger - this means go in hard and mercilessly. There is the rub - you will not know whether fireing was appropriate, and you will not be able to turn back once you have started. You may get away with it once and maybe twice, but sooner or later someone is going to die.

When all is said and done - is cruising worth a life - anyone's life? Think about it. While me may be living in the 18th century as far as piracy on the high seas is concerned, we need not act as if we were still living in that time.

I say avoid those areas in the first place and dispense with the gun thing. I may not be able to help where I live - say because of work or family, but I can sure choose where I sail.

As far as the breaking and entering kind of theft is concerned, by all means put up electric fences, dogs etc. No great harm is done.

Boycott every area that has a record of piracy. Do not travel in that area, do not visit those towns, do not go to their restaurants, drink their water, or visit their sites, do not transit their waters, etc. Simple eh? Authorities of those countries will sooner or later sit up and take notice, when they no longer get the tourist dollar.

I think a lot more could be done in the political sphere. If sailors were to be prepared to collectively boycott, work together to lobby companies, governments, tourist agencies, letters to the editor etc., something positive would come out of it. Why isn't piracy in the newspaper? Because noone makes it their business to put it there.

[shaperx1]

I will not travel anywhere on a boat without a gun or guns. I am a delivery captain and know people who have had pirates set them adrift in a dingy. And one of my friends was set a drift running the slot between Cuba and Great Bahama bank on his way to Puerto Rico. They would have to kill me to get my boat.
I carry 2, 12 gauge pistols and 3 1/2" buck shot and slugs. They are rechambered WWII flare pistols they have a strong enough action to hold the gas presures and you can still use them for flares keep one in my flare kit and 1 near me at all times under way.
My teacher at the captains school, him and his wife have circumnavagated the world 6 times and he says he would not travel without "guns" he has 2 shotguns that he takes apart and they screw to different places on his engines. He has some pretty heavy stories from the Indian Ocean and off of Columbia.

[dionysis]

Let me just add in reply to shaperx1, and I hope this will not be taken as an offence to the Americans on this forum. We must be carefull about taking the "right to bear arms" into international waters. This could lead to an "arms race". Furthermore - now that my dander is up -

Here I am sailing along minding my own business, a bunch of pirates comes over and kills me - just before I die I ask why they showed no mercy, and the head pirate says, because his little brother was killed recently by a very much augmented and clever shotgun blast at fifty yards. The barstards he said - my little brother only wanted the radio.

Tell me this could not happen.

I am not saying that evil people do not sail the seven seas. What I am saying is don't kill them, just starve them.

[428]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7203219/

[mackid068]

Dionysis, I'm not an advocate of "gun rights" (ie I oppose right to bear arms in most cases) but I feel that mariners on the open seas do have the inherent right to protect themselves. I bet that the best way to do this must be with flare guns, or at worst, a taser or "riot gun" that fires bean bags (or something of that nature, even though they CAN be deadly) Perhaps a pepperball gun or ball of some hard substance could be used in lieu of paintball pellets. Maybe, you could rig a 10 gauge shotgun shell rigged with 10 gauge shells filled with salt or some painful but nonlethal substance could work. How about a saluting cannon for scaring them off firing blanks or black powder?

[dionysis]

As I said, it is a difficult decision to make:

check this out (http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-03-14-1)http://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2005-03-14-1

[woodboat]

I find it interesting that you put "intellectual" under you name yet oppose the right to bear arms. Are you being sarcastic and I am just missing it in the post?

[mackid068]

Intellectuals tend to support fact based arguments, ergo, I oppose the right to bear arms. Staticstically, for example, one who owns a firearm in the home is 37% more likely to use it to kill him/herself, a spouse or family member than a criminal (for self-defense).

[woodboat]

So you were serious then? Or you haven't really given it much thought.

[PowerTech]

Every thing you write anoys me some how kid.

[Wynand N]

Perhaps a pepperball gun or ball of some hard substance could be used in lieu of paintball pellets. Maybe, you could rig a 10 gauge shotgun shell rigged with 10 gauge shells filled with salt or some painful but nonlethal substance could work. How about a saluting cannon for scaring them off firing blanks or black powder?

Kid, fight fire with fire.
My question to you, will the pirates / gangsters load their weapons with the same to level the playing field :?:
Or perhaps they will fire a saluting cannon with blanks or blackpower to get your attention....

Wake up to the real world.

[mackid068]

No they won't, but a well placed flare shot can kill or cause fire/explosion and is 100% legal to have on you.

[Wynand N]

No they won't, but a well placed flare shot can kill or cause fire/explosion and is 100% legal to have on you.

Fair enough, I'll buy that.

[tom28571]

Hello...

Just scream at them that you are an American, and ask them what they are going to do about it...

That should get the dialogue started.... :)

This is only a suggestion - aimed (no pun) at getting rid of stupid Americans...

Last year in Mexico there was a brewhaha on the street - two Mexican cops dragged out this kid from a bar who screamed out the above - I thought to myself (no pun) - well - thats the end of his happy vacation - half a dozen smacks on the head with a 7 inch thick phone book can't hurt any American who asks 'what you going to do about it'...

Not intended to offend those Americans who know when to keep the fact that they are same hush hush whilst travelling abroad without a mechanized armoured division or half a dozen stolen VISA cards...

Viva...

SH.


Damm, Sean,

Now you done gone and pissed me off. You may not have meant this to offend but, believe me, it did. It is just the kind of crap we don't need. I can usually take your wandering jibes as humor but this kind of blanket diatribe angries up my blood.

We do have our sins to answer for south of the border but I am still proud to be an American and there are surely lots of others glad to get in. I've traveled the entire breadth of your country and like Canadians also, even if a lot of them don't like each other.

The surest way to avoid criticism is to do nothing or pretend problems don't exist. A little navel viewing might help about here.

[Sean Herron]

Hello..

I have to duck a few hits now and then...

I could have subbed in British - French - Dutch - Spanish - Portugese - or any other colonial nation but I had to go American...

The above have evolved into the EU...

Trouble is you don't have the experience of the above - but that will come as history winds its way...

Time to go kill some crows for a pie...

Duck - crow...

SH.

[tom28571]

Don't forget to take a long look at the navel but watch where the gun is pointed while doing that.

Enjoy. :p

[mackid068]

Chances are that'll get you killed because of the pervasive hatred for americans throughout the world.

[Mikey]

Guys, that was unnecessary, OK?

I'll give it a try to get it started again.

2 assumptions, 1) both I and the boat are well insured and 2) I have a "legal" re-chambered WWII flare pistol that shoots more than flares on-board.

The big question is when I should use my weaponry and when not.
I think that we all agree on that IF the pirates are armed, then it is likely that I will be both Out-Gunned and Out-Manned. I think that we all also can agree on that I should expect a more violent response from armed pirates if I start the shooting. Doesn't sound like good odds to me.

Say that I am chased by a fishing boat outside Colombia’s coast. A shot in front of the bridge windows would make the “fishermen” realise that I am armed and prepared to protect myself. I’d say most of them would back off and all is well. But if they don’t, then I have put myself in a more serious position by firing at them. They for some reason still think that they can beat me (out-gunned and out-manned?) and I have pissed them off. Bad odds again.

Chased by Fishing Boat In Asia
Should I shoot or should I not? In Asian waters, I would not simply because I do not believe that they would want to kill or hurt me, they just want my things – and I have insurance anyway. Why take the risk of escalating things? They probably won’t even want my boat, unless it can be used as a fishing boat.

If I do fire in front of the bridge windows of an Indonesian fishing boat, I bet they would back off, regardless of if they had some arms on board or not. They are just dirt poor fishing men who tried to get “some extra income”, doesn’t mean that they will attack an armed boat. Thief by opportunity or pirate?

But they are still humans and they will get angry when they are shot at, we all do, don’t we? What is there stopping them from taking revenge by reporting this to the local authorities – “they have never seen a westerner in their life and they just approached to say Hello when they got shot at”. If they have a bullet hole in the bridge window, then authorities may very well take action and you would be thrown in jail, temporarily of course. No offence anyone, but showing an American flag in Indonesian waters may very well provoke such a response (provoke –seen from an Indonesians’ perspective, not mine). A gun can easily be planted on board and you are the one proving that it’s not yours and that you did not fire it.

Sad fact, but I would not want to show an American flag in Indonesian waters at all. The same goes for the Muslim parts of The Philippines (the south).

Chased by Speed Boat
I would most likely not start firing at a speed boat approaching me in the Malaccan Straight, same thing, they would most likely not hurt me if they just get what they want. Or what I have if I don’t have what they want. I am sounding like a parrot by now – and I have insurance anyway. But these guys may very well want my boat too, not only my things so it’s “most likely” this time. If I can be reasonably certain that they are unarmed, or that odds are fairly even, then I might fire first. And thinking of it, I would carry 2 re-chambered WWII flare pistols, 2 shots fired within a second of each other may make them re-thing and choose an easier target instead. Once they have opened fire, then I would never shoot back not trying to kill, that’s pointless.

For Sure - If a speed boat full with pirates shooting wildly approach, then I’d fire back with everything I had, got nothing to lose, sort of. Now please help me, what should I do if a speed boat full with pirates approaches me outside Colombia’s or Puerto Rico’s coast and what about my "Colombian fishermen being the same as Asian fishermen" assumption?

Mikey

[dionysis]

You analysis is a pretty fair Mikey, and I for one think thise thread needs to be worked out further.

My response further up the page, was to simply avoid those areas that have a concerted history of piracy. Go around the area - just don't go there. I still stand by that.

In the first instance, I know this seems to avoid the issue in an easy sort of way. Perhaps if I were by myself at sea, I may take a chance, but if I have my wife and daughter as well, what should I do then?

You must admit it does away with the whole problem of what to do. Problem solved.

Nevertheless, in what situation will shooting be the right thing to do?

There are three classes of pirates as you have shown:

1. Poor oppotunistic pirates who have no arms.
2. Pirates who have the arms but have not got the stomach to trade lives for money or electronics.
3. Pirates who are prepared to kill if it suits them.

In all these cases the best course, (leaving aside the ideal avoidance strategy) is to carry a heavy calibre automatic machine gun. One that is sure to do damage to the hull of any resonable pirates boat. Let alone it's occupants. Why?

If you fire, you better be able to back it up. You cannot predict how many guns will be aimed at you, so you may as well have a gun that can be equivalent to ten armed pirates. Furthermore if such a gun is fired across the bows first. Everbody will know what they are in for.

This is the "cold war" deterance option.

But are you able to carry such a gun? It's ridiculous. Furthermore, if push comes to shove, you would need to have a kevlar reinforced cockpit. So like I say: go around.

What is wrong with the avoidance strategy anyway?

[woodboat]

I totally agree that areas should be avoided. If a hurricaine were approaching why would one charge into it? With that said I also think one should be prepared for the worst. So, say you have avoided known pirate areas but they have moved their operations and are now in your waters. If going on a long cruise do you prepare for the worst? Do you have it in your mind that you are going to give up to the first person trying to board your vessel? Do you repel boarders?

[Skippy]

I agree completely with Mikey's approach. Risk management is crucial. Any one-size-fits-all approach will be vastly inferior to a knowledge of what different kinds of attackers are out there, where they are, how common they are, and what are the best ways of dealing with them.

[woodboat]

Interesting reading. http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/lott200503230744.asp I challenge mackid068 to read it completely

[=D=]

is it a problem to use some defence rules.

1) if they shooting to you then you shooting to them

2) if they just beg for some goodies then you giving something to them if you
can

I know that I've simplify a little the problem. The reality is little more complicated. But when somethink is hapening, you must react somehow anyway.

[mackid068]

John Lott is a noted conservative, and is obviously biased. I'd like to see a report b an impartial academic that bases everything purely on numbers. (For example: 37% more likely to kill family member than to kill criminal!)

[woodboat]

First off why would be a conservative make one Biased? Most major media are liberal yet claim to be unbiased. Secondly that is the second time you wrote that astonishing sounding statistic. What does it mean? Certainly not that 37% of the 70 million US gun owners will kill a relative :) This website http://www.kimdutoit.com/guns/KdtA5.htm indicates that 2.75% or 774 people were killed accidently (at the time the article was written). A little blurb for those not interested enough to read :)
Leading causes of death:

Heart Disease: 710,760
Cancer: 553,091
Stroke: 167,661
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 122,009
Accidents: 97,900
Diabetes: 69,301
Influenza and pneumonia: 65,313
Alzheimer's Disease: 49,558
Kidney diseases: 37,251
Septicemia: 31,224
Suicide: 29,350
Liver disease: 26,552
Hypertension/renal disease: 18,073
Homicide (all causes): 16,765
Pneumonitis: 16,636
All other combined: 391,904

Total deaths by gunshot: 28,663

Circumstances of gunshot deaths:

1. Suicide: 16,596 (53%)
2. Homicide: 10,806 (38%)
3. Accident: 774 (2.7%)
4. Police: 258 (0.9%)
5. Unknown: 229 (0.8%)

As a percentage of the total U.S. population:

-- Gunshot homicide deaths (10,806) : 0.0036%

And for comparison purposes:

-- Death by alcohol (19,358): 0.0062% [excl. alcohol-related accidents]

How would you feel if people starting espousing the virtues of repealing the first amendment?

[Mikey]

There is nothing wrong with the avoidance strategy Dionysis and I would use it anywhere I could. But it is simply not possible to fulfill my ultimate goal, a circumnavigation, without getting into some danger areas.

Thinking of it, with my wife and 3 month old daughter on board, I would NOT go south from Singapore. But I would still go-round-the-world (dream on Mikey, you don't have the money anyway...).

I think I and my family are safe this route - please question my assumptions and fill in with more information.

Starting in the Caribbean, I'd stay well clear of Colombian and Venezuelan waters when going for the Panama Canal. What about threats from the north closing in on Panama?

Once in the Pacific, I have many things to worry about, but not pirates. I want to go to Australia and that is also fine but I must avoid south Indonesia at all costs. That means that Torres Straight is out of the question, so is the south of the Philippines. My only safe route except rounding Australia (which I don't want) is to go east of Indonesia and south Philippines. I think I can take the San Bernadino Straight and then steer north west, don't have take the Luzon Straight and avoid the Philippines totally. Besides, the Philippines is a paradise that I don't want to miss.

I stay clear of Vietnamese, Cambodian and Indonesian waters and head for Singapore. From Singapore, I head north up the Malaccan Straight toward Thailand. This stretch is not 100% safe but this is the only way there is. I decide to stay close to Malaysia's coast and only move daytime. From what I have heard, I should be fine doing it this way.

I will visit the Burmese archipelago for a week or two, must go in to the Burmese border town just north of Ranong in Thailand and "fetch a customs officer" (must be onboard all the time if the boat is not Burmese flagged). There is an acceptable fee and a bribe (a bottle of western Whiskey will do fine) involved but it is worth it.

Now I have a problem. Should I take the Suez canal or round Africa??? Look, I don't want to round Africa. Help! Advice please...

If I still want to take the Suez canal, what's the safest way to do it? Is there a safe way...

It was good dreaming...
Mikey

[dionysis]

I would think that hugging the Australian coast through the Torres Strait would be quite safe. I doubt that Indonesian pirates would take the chance of attacking in Australian waters.

I would approach the Philllipines from the east pacific, retrace my steps slightly and skirt eastern New Guinea, visit Australia etc, then cross the Indian Ocean. That way you avoid the "southeastasianblackspot".

Googling this morning I came apon this info:

[Mikey]

Interesting Piracy Report, good reading. Thanks for finding and posting it! I believe you and I was wrong, Torres Straight is safe as long as you stay in Australian waters.

From what I hear here, approaching Singapore from the East, and then follow Malaysia’s coast line to Thailand and Burma should still be OK. There are attacks, sure, but moving day time only, the risk of anything happening would be extremely small.

My biggest worry is getting from Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean (without rounding Africa), any suggestions???

Mikey

[mackid068]

Don't have an ostentacious looking vessel. Perhaps bring a heck of alot of flare guns or Very pistols?

[Jack D Davis]

Do you have statistics on that, wb? Any data to suggest that a physically aggressive response really is likely to be more effective and/or less dangerous in most cases?

In 1943 after the start of WWII (for US) my father was drafted into the Army. I was just 2 years old and my brother about 6 months old. My mother told this story until the day she died and never changed it over the years.

After Dad left for boot camp, Mom was sitting on the couch and noticed a movement in a window. Looking quickly, she saw a man staring at her through the window. No phone, she ran into the bedroom and got Dad's rifle. She knew nothing of guns. Didn't even know if it was loaded. But she sat on the couch and polished that gun with a rag for hours. The next morning the man's foot prints were there by the window in the soft dirt. She always believed that gun saved her (and her babies) from, who know's what.

You won't find this in any statistics......nothing happened. No police report. No news story...nothing.

Very difficult to know how many times a gun has saved a life when the very presence of a gun may be enough to stop a crime. What doesn't happen, rarely makes the news or statistics in a study.

Why plan to be a victim? I would plan not to be a victim.

[Mikey]

Must say that I have changed opinion a little anyway because of this thread mackid68, 3 rechambered flare guns are still "legal" so why not bring them?

Thanks for sharing your story, Jack. Just showing weapons (made of wood or plastic or whatever) may deter some pirates, wouldn't do it if they had already shown their arsenal though.

Would hugging the Saudi coast line moving toward Suez be safe? Still leaves getting past Yemen though.

Mikey

[mackid068]

Maybe try airsoft guns...they fire plastic pellets and can be very realistic (though they won't hurt...)

[dionysis]

Thanks Jack, and you have made an important point. There are no single or easy answers: use avoidance if you can, take your chances as you must. As Mikey's last question reveals: sometimes avoidance is not an option. What then?

Your suggested approach, and I respect it, is to attempt to deter would be pirates say, from approach through show of arms. This surely would be a usefull thing to do, and I agree that deterrence has worked in a many many cases. But what if show of arms does not deter them. So then you fire the weapon.

If you do, what could perhaps have been merely a robbery on the high seas, turns to a darker violence.

I suppose it all comes down to the situation at the time. If the pirates are many, and have lots of guns, then perhaps the best option is to go passive and pray. If on the other hand the pirates are few, and amatuers, then showing and even fireing may and probably will deter them.

This would be the approach taken by the majority, and on the face of it looks like common sense.

The other bits to unravel though are:

1. The circumstance where in the process of deterrence someone is killed, or wounded. A life is taken to protect goods?

2. A firefight ensues. Then courage and a better gun, all things being equal wins.

If there is a chance we may be attacked, our gut feelings drive us to avoid the situation, run away, threaten them, and then finally to fight.

In the Gandalf et. al. case, the person recounting the episode said that if his friend on the other boat did not have the presence of mind to ram the other pursueing boat, the outcome could have been different. They won through, but at the cost of two or more of their attackers being killed.

I don't have the answers.

[dionysis]

Mikey, could approach the Gulf of Aden from the open sea, and attempt it in rough weather, the rougher the better. Hard to do, but possible.

You would need to survey all piracy reports in the area first though.

[Mikey]

“But what if show of arms does not deter them. So then you fire the weapon.”

Well, if they show their weapons and I’m outgunned, I would throw mine overboard and make sure they see it. If the pirates aren’t amateurs and are armed, then I’ll lose for sure. Lose what? My life? Sometimes it is better to be humble than proud...

Rough Weather – Very good idea, dionysis. Wouldn’t worry about rough weather, that I can prepare for, armed pirates is a different matter.

Mikey

[Frosty]

I have sailed up and down the staights of Malaca a few times. I used to carry guns but now I dont. I have aslo sailed down the coast of the Philapines, Borneo Brunai. I now cruise in the area of Langkawi. I have seen boats waiting for me and as I get close they pass very close to my bow, only to drop the fishing nets. This is because they think they have taken my good luck. I have seen small fast boats go so close to my bow I lost sight of them, they wear hoods on their heads, but thats to protect them from the sun.
I carry miles of polypropelene rope cheap light and a devil to get of a prop, and if the come again, I will lay more out. A spear gun, A flare gun with magnesium flares, put one of those in a boat and they will be coughing and spluttering for hours. If i see a boat that looks threatening i will show them a burst of speed--I try to deter them from the act before they take action. I have had the life frightened out of me by big fishing boats that come up on my stern so fast with more that 15 men on board only to wave and pass on by.
They want money not your radar display or your GPS and now that most cruisers use a credit card, sailers dont carry cash. Ships do, and thats what the professional parates go for.
I am not an expert on the subject but i do sail around on my own with my girl friend so I am concerned.

[saeble]

my first post... be gentle :)

~~~~~~~~~

I intend to get into quite a large vessel eventually and I'm sure that I'm going to be haunting some of the worst pirate waters for reasons other than sailing through. I have some vested interest in some projects on landfalls where piracy is rife. I may have little choice but to work out exactly what I want to do with potential pirate problems.

I've done some thinking on this subject and this is what I'd do.

I'd buy several 5.56 semi-auto rifles (from the USA probably), for the express purpose of firing tracer ammo, probably almost exclusively across the bows of those who need to know my ship/boat is armed. Tracer ammo is a very effective way to make it known that you have A) something thats regarded in some places as military grade ammunition, and as a consequence, probably military grade guns. At night its doubly intimidating, which is my chief aim. Fear and fear of the unknown works better as a deterrent than anything else.

If I can't instill fear with the above...

I'd also have a well disguised hand made mortar. Nothing says " F%#$ off !" like a large plume of black powder smoke on your vessel and an equally large plume of water in between you and some potential trouble. You don't even need the projectile to be explosive, the proverbial bowling ball is enough to cause significant cosnternation in your intended target... and woe betide a thin hulled boat that is incredibly unfortunate enough to be under your fall of shot.

If none of the above works... the mortar can be tipped on its mountings and end up as a volley gun as previously mentioned. Black powder and a large clump of discarded fishing sinkers will ruin anyones day.

By day... this mortar looks like, and can be used as, the mother of all rod holders..:D

If they still persist, and by now I'd hope that some of them are wounded or dead... there's these :

one for each crewmember :

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/special.tpl loaded primarily with buckshot. Only someone who wants to be dead gets into a firefight on a small vessel with a rifle.

As far as secreting the guns... well thats why you build your own boat so you can build in the most cunning and fiendishly clever hidey holes.

I'm from the school of thought that prescribes to making your vessel not worth the cost of attacking it. Layering your defenses, making them extremely obvious and offering the pirate every opportunity to decide that disgression is the better part of valour, is your best option.

[Jack D Davis]

My days of sailing the high seas are over, so the issue of dealing with pirates is moot. I was raised around guns and have owned and used them all my life. Guns are a very useful tool and, like most tools, are only as good or bad as the person using them. If you know nothing about them and are not willing to learn and be profficient with them, it's best not to have them.

If I were going into dangerous waters, I'd carry several different guns for different situations. A high powered rifle for long shots, a short barrelled shotgun with 00 buck for closer use and a handgun for very close. I'd practice, first on the range until I was very familiar with each gun's operation, then on the water, where I would most likely be using it.

I'd take balloons, tie weights to them to hold them on the water then circle them with a boat, shooting until I could break them with regularity. Shooting from a pitching deck is not impossible. It's like shooting offhand (standing, no rest) only harder. It takes practice, practice, practice. Nobody can hold a rifle steady shooting off hand. It's a matter of timing. You time the shot to go off as the sights are passing over the intended target. Like throwing a football while running across the field and hitting a receiver going the other way.

The pirate has the same handicap as you do, so you have to be better at it then he is. I'd bet he doesn't want big holes in his body any more than you do, so if you're better at it then he is, more than likely, he is going to find easier prey. Criminals as a rule, prey on the weak, not on those that can defend themselves. All other things being equal, a burglar will take an unlocked door over a locked one every time.

Personally, I'd take a jail in a foreign country over being fish food if given the choice. My first thought is to survive. I'll worry about getting out of jail when the time comes.

I'd be prepared for the worst and employ those preparations as the situation dictates. Approach the job with forethought, common sense and the proper tools in the hands of a journeyman.

[mackid068]

"If I were going into dangerous waters, I'd carry several different guns for different situations. A high powered rifle for long shots, a short barrelled shotgun with 00 buck for closer use and a handgun for very close." I could agree with you to an extent, but if you're just sailing off the east coast of the US or anywhere in European/EU/American/Canadian/NATO waters, you're probably safe enough, so keep your guns only for those East Asian and Arab waters.

[Jack D Davis]

In that case, referring back to my first sentence, second paragraph, mackid068, if you're safe enough, then those wouldn't be "Dangerous waters" would they? ;)

[mackid068]

:P yeah. that's true...

[dionysis]

We had a situation just recently where a well known sailor of a west coast Australian yacht club, was jailed in Indonesia for carrying a veritable arsenal a guns and ammunition. I can't remember off hand, but he had around 6 guns of various sorts and thousands of rounds. He said it was for protection against pirates. His boat looked like a small cargo ship. With diplomatic support he was allowed to leave jail, after extended wrangling.

I found some links; the initial story: the age (http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Yachtsman-faces-Bali-court-over-guns-cache/2005/01/24/1106415529696.html?oneclick=true) and his release: smh (http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Australian-yachtsman-released/2005/02/20/1108709492450.html?oneclick=true)

For those of us who do not live in a 'gun culture" (don't take offence - none is intended), it seems a little strange to hear all this talk of guns as tools. I suppose we in Australia are protected from this kind of reality of guns.

I'd be prepared for the worst and employ those preparations as the situation dictates. Approach the job with forethought, common sense and the proper tools in the hands of a journeyman. In some parts of the world, guns and violence are taken for granted. We would do well to avoid such places. On the other hand if one is faced with no alternative but to defend themselves and their loved ones, then the proper tools and the requisite skills are mandatory.

I don't like this situation.

[Frosty]

Theres a lot of logic being discussed here where non can be applied. These people are a different religion, have little future, and have no concept of ownwership. You dont own that yacht and your money ,you just have it for a while . Now its there turn. Death is not so bad ,you will go to heaven, they are doing you a favour.
You'de better keep that gun clean stashed away in that marine envioronment or else --click oops. Then theres the other crew members who now know where the gun is --another problem!!!.
I guarantee you one thing, in no way will you handle the situation in any way that you think you will.

[dave L]

Dionysis...It was that exact situation that prompted me to start this thread. At that stage his case's outcome was uncertain. I actually assume that it was his deeper than normal pockets that eventually free'd him, but that is speculation and a certain distrust of "true" justice that a lot of asian countries seem to have.

I actually agree with the No Guns approach, and I quite like the polypropelene rope around the prop idea... thanks for that one Jack frost. Seems to be quite a bit of logic in the softly - softly approach. Still being an aussie and not being exposed to the gun culture I would not have the confidence to use firearms...let alone at sea.

Does anyone have any non-firearm suggestions to ward of pirates?

[dionysis]

When I first heard the story I thought there was something suspicious about the size of the arsenal, but from some of the contributions here. It may be quite acceptable.

A yacht is perhaps not so promising as a small recreational and supposedly rich freighter.

My other suggestions were to:

transit known hot spots in rough conditions. The rougher the better.

Travel at night. Bit this may worsen things because it would add tension to an already tense situation.

[Frosty]

There quite a few things you can do besides the polypropelene roap trick. Firstly it would be wise to travell with a few friends I have got myself out of trouble twice with a high power flash light. One was about 200miles south of Bankok off the millitay base of Satahip. A large vessel in the night came up to me very fast and circled me. he was hanging off my bows and was pushing me off course. I could see men running around the decks. I flashed the light on my rigging and sails( covering my eyes first) The vessel left immediately. It could have been a police boat I dont know.
Second was to wake up a wandering tug heading for Singapore in the Malaca straights. Maybe the load on the rope made him wander, but I could not get out of his way. A quick flash and I heard the engine shut down, obviously asleep.
If i was to be chased I would head out to sea, They will no doubt be in a power boat and therefore need diesel . He will not be so keen to chase you further from his fuel dock.
Never have women on deck unless they sit in mens clothing at the wheel. Dont pick up any thing that might be confused as a gun. Use a hand held radio and shout into it constantly as if you were communicating with some one ( they dont know). Shout down the companion way as if there were more crew down below. Steer away and start laying polypropelene. If they do get close at night flash the light at the helmsman. Then turn off your lights and do a 180 degree turn,-you might get away with it. Finally if some one did get on board i would hide below and wait, as he came down the stairs I would flash his eyes with the light and break both his legs with a 3x2.
I would not through him over the side for them to pick him up I would arrest him and hand him over to the next port. Ultimate proof of piracy

[cyclops]

There are 2 different groups here. Non-violent, don't hurt me. And , I will take down and kill as many of you as I can before you injure or kill ANY of my people. Weakness makes a bully more agressive. It comes down to " walk softly and carry as much of a stick as you can". Russian Kalashnakov assualt guns are the only weapon I KNOW will always operate and go thru anything in their way. That is probably what they should have to do their business. I want equal firepower. That weapon and a Poncho Via ammo belt with clips, for at least 3 shooting crew members, is the only thing I would cruise into known trouble. Always dress properly for any occasion.

[mackid068]

Well, never give in to terrorists like Neville Chamberlain and Hitler: Pre WWII, Brits gave part of Czech. to Nazis to appease them. Never appease bad people, scare them away: flare guns, black powder, tasers (they work at 15 ft. with laser sight!), air burst simulators (simulated mortar fire-w00t!, supposed to be easy to make if you know a bit about chemistry), pepperball guns (paintball like weapons firing pepper spray capcicain? balls, 60 ft. range), if you have $ electrify deck aside from cockpit (maybe?), a police boat flashing light (and siren!), perhaps rig "boarding nets" during night hours along with laying spikes of some sort (caltrops!), if being chased drop floating chaff to disable engines. ACTIVE DETERRENTS! DON'T LOOK LIKE A TARGET, DON'T DISPLAY WEALTH: don't look valuable, be able to speed up like crazy, maybe even hold a gun on you on deck?

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I will take a Ruger over any clunky - wood and mild steel muck up wand - any day...

SH.

[cyclops]

Are Ruger's small caliber automatic target pistol weapons?

[mackid068]

Keep a small, accurate gun, but try scaring them or speeding away.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Ruger manufactures many semi auto hand guns and shotguns that have NO mild grade steel components or wood - all composites and stainless - photo shows a wood stock but you can get composite...

Throw it in the water - pick it out of the water and shoot it...

Bit of salt build up - throw the thing in the dishwasher...

Lovely...

A Kalishnikov is an idiot spay weapon for 3rd world 'so - so - soldiers' - great for knee jerkers who like to shoot at barn doors...

See http://www.ruger-firearms.com ...

The nearly all porcelain Glocks are another good go...

See http://www.glock.com/ ...

SH.

[Jack D Davis]

A Kalishnikov is an idiot spay weapon for 3rd world 'so - so - soldiers' - great for knee jerkers who like to shoot at barn doors...
......and miss the whole barn.

[mackid068]

Well, Kalishnikovs are supposed to be good...for the first shot, anyway.

[woodboat]

I have a mak90 (Chinese AK47) with a hell fire trigger and a simple issue muzzel brake. I am able to put an entire magazine into a large stuffed animal at about 75 feet in a 3 second time frame. The issue muzzle brake makes it very controlable on full auto. It is very accurate in semi mode. Very reliable gun.

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Well - I can eat glue all day long...

So there...

SH.

[cyclops]

It was found that gun runners boats sank quickest by emptying a AK's clip just below the waterline, about 1' long. Practice made perfect. Most rolled in 1 minute. Our NATO's took 2 full clips for less of a hole. The AK would usually eat a same sized hole farther down on the other side. Our 222 peashooters seldom made it thru both sides.

[JonathanCole]

Pirate repulsion devices. Take several 1 quart tupper ware containers. Put a block of tofu in and cover with water. Put the cover on the container and put them in fridge for at least 3 months. When the pirate boat gets within tossing distance, throw a bunch of these onto the pirate ship. Run.

The tofu bomb makes an incredibly foul smell and the smell travels very fast. The pirates will jump over board and it will be hours before they can get near their boat again. But make sure you don't accidently open one before you throw it, otherwise you may actually beg the pirates to shoot you! :D

[Bob Leask]

Repulsive, all right. You may be on the right track. Possibly the effect could be enhanced with other sensory offenses, such as finding an old recording of "Peter Frampton Comes Alive" and playing it at max volume.

[MarkC]

Hmmmmm - the situation may not be so obvious as it appears.

The killing on the yacht 'C-MENT' in indonesia? where bandits posed as police - or police as bandits comes to mind. One is not going to dash for the gun-stash when a Police Boat approaches...

Honestly - you're probably in more danger from Cyclones/Tornadoes - or the not-so-freak freak-wave.

[VinceS]

Dress your boat in camo. Doesnt work for a lot of boats, but if you have a nice power cruiser, dress it in camo and I doubt pirates would aproach. or just write "Police" or "Military" down the side.

You could airate the water behind you by pumping extreme amounts of air into some (pipes with holes) setup behind your boat. Turn away and get them in your airated wake. Boyancy drops drastically in airated water, if it doesnt sink them it will slow them down and possibly cause thier engine to over-rev/die.

You could do this quite cheaply, dump 30 weighed down hoses into the water behind you and pump as much air in as you can. You would need a pretty hefty air compressor. careful you dont sink yourself.

[Frosty]

It is quite easy to make a dummy anti aircraft missile launcher, All you need is an old swivel chair, a few old cardboard boxes some sticky tape and a 6 foot piece of PVC 4 inch soil pipe. Painted matt black of course. Place that on the bow.

[RANCHI OTTO]

Pirates ?.....no problems,,!! :D :D

[JR-Shine]

Honestly - you're probably in more danger from Cyclones/Tornadoes - or the not-so-freak freak-wave.


Yes, and if there were a way to prepare a response for a rouge wave or hurricane - I would expect you and I would do it. I have no plans to surrender my family's safety when it comes things that I can take steps to mitigate. When it come down to it, you have to take personal responsibility for your own safety. If you are not responsible for your safety, then who is, the police? If the police are actually responsible for your safety then why cant they be sued when you are assaulted?

[Bob Leask]

MarkC raises an important point in these discussions about defense: In a lot of "failed state" type places, that label fits Indonesia pretty well, the piracy problem might actually be the police or military. That's been the case in a lot of incidents I've heard of in Asian waters. The Indonesian piracy rings are known to be at least sanctioned by, if not run by, government officials. Forget about defending yourself against armed patrol craft.

I think we've just got to face the unpleasant fact that when you're playing with toys that are worth more than the gross income of a large village in some of those countries, somebody might be tempted to take it from you. If you want to do that safely you're just plain being silly. If you don't like that risk don't take it, stay in civilized places.

There are basically 3 areas of the world where piracy is a significant problem, the good news is that they're all easily avoided. You can sail around the world and have your pick of enough safe places to visit, more than you'll ever live long enough to see. Those who choose to sail through southeast Asia, the Red Sea or certain parts of Latin America know there are risks involved. It's a roll of the dice for the sake of a shorter passage or cheaper provisions or whatever reason but nobody actually needs to go to any of those places.

It's like hiking in bear country. If you're scared of bears, what the heck are you doing there? So far I've never seen campers in bear country armed to the teeth like special forces, but that seems to be about what some people seem to think is rational in regards to yachting in places that are the human equivalent.

[terabika]

I have read many stories in which they were not "verywell" armed. I do not consider ak47 so formidable as I carry one myself with 75 round drum and pnumatic triger cycler (it is semi auto fo rlegal purposes and pnumatic piece fits in in about 5 seconds. I have two "hardened " positions that will take up to but not including a .50 cal. I have surprise, lots of rounds and can lob molatov coctails 75 yards with pnumatic cannon.....a boat on fire will not give me any problem i think :-)....peace through superior firepower! :-)

[Frosty]

I dont know if you are all aware but I will tell you any way. Thers a yachty web site called noonsite,com There are a few spine chilling stories of pirate attacks on criusing yachts.

[YarPirateSteve]

YAR! Ye Mother Was a tree!!

http://penguin.onlinecis.com/blabe/misc/pics/family_guy/pirate_tn.jpg

[Peg Arm Mez]

Well, raise my mast & bury my treasure!

[xovlov]

http://tinyurl.com/7dktl
what DO you do with a drunken sailor?
besides buy him more Jagermeister?

[mackid068]

This couldn't be any funnier!

[Peg Arm Mez]

So, matey, tell us more about your wet art.

[YarPirateSteve]

Yar! I'd say you should tell us about ye wet art!

[xovlov]

no, you tell us about YOUR wet art

[YarPirateSteve]

Yar! I already be saying that thar XOVLOV! You scurvy wench!

[xovlov]

http://img314.imageshack.us/img314/5339/newsteam2yu.gif

news team! I mean, Pirate Team attack!!!

[Peg Arm Mez]

SILENCE!! I have hARd quite enouf with ye rubber jawed ways! Both of ye! On thy plank!

[Chicken:take 2]

Yar !!!!!!!!

[YarPirateSteve]

yar, beware mateys it looks like she may have ye red tide!

YAR!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chicken:take 2]

Bam Boom Bif!!!!!!

[Chicken:take 2]

Tweek! Twank!!!!! Bim!

[YarPirateSteve]

Blub Blub!

[xovlov]

women and seamen don't mix I tells ya!

[Peg Arm Mez]

What's that ye claim, Cap'n Spotted Appendage?

[Plunder PegLeg]

ARGH!! We be having an attack!! RETURN FIRE!! RETURN FIRE!!
http://www.liveandlearn.com/toys/flyingshadowcannon.jpg

[xovlov]

http://re2.mm-c1.yimg.com/image/1323730194
Matt Damon!

[Plunder PegLeg]

http://www.legofigs.com/images/pirates/Pirate_bluewhite_stripes_shirt2.jpg
I be moppin ye poop deck with ye scurvy mates afore'n ye knows it!

[Peg Arm Mez]

Matt Damon = landlubber

[YarPirateSteve]

YAR BLAST YE!

http://www.fantaseaweddings.com/images/Pirates/images/cannon.jpg

[xovlov]

http://tinyurl.com/cx3jo
hands about ship!

[Plunder PegLeg]

thats a mighty big cannon ye got matey and the flowers are quite nice. ARGH!

[xovlov]

http://tinyurl.com/b3xko
I'll cut y'all to ribbons ya sausage smugglers!

[Plunder PegLeg]

http://tommorey.com/starwaves/images/piratecannon.jpg
BOOOM!!

and ye parrot takes it up the ass!!

[Peg Arm Mez]

<img src="http://www.jollyrogercayman.com/graphics/canon.jpg">

This is for putting ye hands on my deck!
YAR!

[xovlov]

http://www.spiritof76.net/ship21.jpg
now, you asked for it!

[Peg Arm Mez]

ABANDON SHIP!
Every man for himself!

YAAAAR!

[xovlov]

http://www.spiritof76.net/artillery1c.jpg
wait for it!

[xovlov]

http://www.piratebrethren.com/sketch_1w.jpg
screw you guys!
I'm going home
HA!™

[=D=]

I have a question to people that sailing a lot around world and visiting every place on the world.

how real and big is probability to meet a pirates in present days when you sailing around the world

[mackid068]

That's ok. No worries about the english. It's not bad at all! I don't sail around the world (hell, I haven't...yet.) but the probability is pretty low as long as you stay away from Indonesia, certain parts of Africa and some other parts of Asia. Pretty near nil probability if you stay in/near (within 12 miles or even less) European nations, US, Canada, you know, big industrialized nations.

[Mikey]

As Mackid068 says, the risk is small and I also think that we should separate between 'dangerous' pirate attacks and what more can be seen as 'OK, I'm losing some money, it was scary and I will remember it a long time'.

The 'dangerous type'; The risk of this is very very small indeed! Unless it is parts of South America's coast line or Africa and a few more places. If you meet violence with violence in a situation like that, then you are really in the ****! Outside areas like that... 0.00000001% if you cruise a life time

The 'Pirate for need' type is also unlikely but if you sail 6 months in Indonesian waters, then you will get hit. The risk of you or your family to get hurt.... 0.001% if you treat the situation correctly and of course a much much higher risk if you meet violence with violence

Mikey

[blared]

just put one of these on your boat when you decided to go out there. :)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid187/p5963846b461dce59918b4447e6a4c7f5/f2486e7c.jpg

[mackid068]

One of whats?

Violence is never the answer, but non-lethal weaponry is! (Just kidding.)
Although, wouldn't it be cool if you were sailing around the world, got confronted by pirates (which is, it goes without saying, not cool) and when they came near your boat, a huge arsenal of these greeted them?


http://www.kongsberg.com/images/artikler/30599/Alle%20tre%20samlet-2.jpg

These are remote weapons stations. Make your boat's pilothouse or cockpit or cabin (interior space or WHATEVER) bullet-resistant (cause nothing is bullet-proof) then operate these turrets remotely (you can mount .50 caliber machine guns on them...ARMOR PIERCING. Those pirates won't know what hit them.)

[safewalrus]

with all the wimps in the boating scene it might be worthwhile taking the skull and bones job up as a way to make some extra cash, all you need is a funny flag a big gun and several dozen companions with either one eye or a parrot - or better still a one eyed parrot and your in buzziness! A line in funny speech comes in handy too me hearties, arh jim lad!

[marshmat]

Someone should design a combination tear-gas launcher / machine gun that can tuck away completely into a lazarette.... remote operated from the wheelhouse, hatch sufficiently disguised so as to not raise the attention of foreign port authorities.... while violence is always a last resort, it would be good to have for the time you actually do get shot at. Has to be something not obvious; ie. it looks like a swim platform, or a winch drum, or fender hatch, until the gun is raised.

So the pirates approach.... you warn them off with the loudhailer, they keep coming. Pop the hatch, lob a couple tear-gas canisters over their gunwales. If they start shooting, point the gun at their engine hatch and loose a few rounds. They're now dead in the water and you can get away.

[mackid068]

It could sure as heck be done, but it's more of a question of someone NEEDING/WANTING such a thing (a person/persons with a lot of money).

[FAST FRED]

OF course there is the other side of pirating,

[mackid068]

Yar! Rig the boarding nets, and give the men those pikes! Prepare to repel boarders.

I can picture it now...people putting up those safety nettings and handing out boathooks and spinnaker poles.

[FAST FRED]

Aren't many Sea Scouts today that can get their Pillaging Badge , have had the joy of Sacking a City or Ransoming a Town.

Sounds like a surer income than just driving airplanes.

FAST FRED

[zcg0085]

dave l
message from a friend traveling in a convoy in Indonisia this spring. convoy ahead of their group encountered pirates. small boat first to check them out. every one in the convoy prepared shotguns and lay in hiding. larger boat approached ...guns drawn. convoy opened fire killing several pirates, (sorry folks, but perhaps they should choose another profession) before they could board. the rest fled tails tucked between their legs. Best advice would be to avoid... but this limits you crusing to safe coastal us and eu waters. Personally I will travel in convoys (well armed) with an ear to the seaweed grape vine so as to avoid trouble. This group of priates was within fuel range of shore. but not always. mossberg makes an all stainless short barrel pump 12 guage, kimber makes a compact seven shot stainless 45 (great stopping power), I am looking into a 45-70 lever action repeating carbine... from marlin. I am not a gun owner but will not be stopped from traveling 1/3 rd of the worlds oceans.

[KenCo]

as someone else said, a surplus military 25mm ALL STEEL flaregun can be converted easily. DO NOT LOAD shotgun shells into a "plastic flaregun" (you all knew that, right?)

A "25mm to 12 ga." flare adaptor is avail. from most boat supply stores and turns it into a "12ga. flare pistol". (still legal) I paid $4-5 ea..


Disclaimer, converting something to do this is at your own risk and could be illegal in a crapload of areas if it's chambered w/ shotgun shells..


I bought mine at centerfiresystems dot com and the flare gun was a whopping $39.00+ shipping and came w/ a leather holster and cleaning brushes ;)



http://www.kencofish.com/pics/flaregun.jpg

[marshmat]

Why not keep the thing with the flares, and keep the shotgun shells in a concealed place- a hidden compartment in an overhead, or something. Surely someone can be creative enough to find somewhere that Customs won't check.

[cyclops]

Long, around the world cruises, should always be crewed by few ex- military people who have killed a enemy when threatned. They use enough force to protect you. Which most of you will botch up when the shooting or boarding really begins. MAYDAY MAYDAY, is of no help. Weapons can always be hidden well. Just stay + 100 miles or more away from ANY trouble spots.

[safewalrus]

Cyclops man I like your style! plus of course the RIGHT weapons for the area/job. Pump action shotguns (with the right size shot) are ideal! And a few 'bird shot shells' for the customs to find, "so I like to shoot a few 'tin cans' off shore mista customs man, but I'd never do anything illegal, please lock up my guns under your seal in OUR Bonded Locker" Add a flare gun for ignition (their vessel - never leave survivors! they'll come back to haunt you!)

[chandler]

Unless you intend to use deadly force, stay away from ports that may require it.
Imagine a cruise to the carribean, poor weather necessitates a stop in cuba.
Suppose they'll appreciate your need for firearms???

[chandler]

Long, around the world cruises, should always be crewed by few ex- military people who have killed a enemy when threatned. They use enough force to protect you. Which most of you will botch up when the shooting or boarding really begins. MAYDAY MAYDAY, is of no help. Weapons can always be hidden well. Just stay + 100 miles or more away from ANY trouble spots.
C'mon, where are you going?????

[mackid068]

Cyclops man I like your style! plus of course the RIGHT weapons for the area/job. Pump action shotguns (with the right size shot) are ideal! And a few 'bird shot shells' for the customs to find, "so I like to shoot a few 'tin cans' off shore mista customs man, but I'd never do anything illegal, please lock up my guns under your seal in OUR Bonded Locker" Add a flare gun for ignition (their vessel - never leave survivors! they'll come back to haunt you!)

Why not just fire salt pellets and keep a few slugs (and birdshot) handy? Or, even better, get a license to carry an M-16 or something of that nature? Maybe just have a nice, big engine to speed away with....

[mackid068]

Unless you intend to use deadly force, stay away from ports that may require it.
Imagine a cruise to the carribean, poor weather necessitates a stop in cuba.
Suppose they'll appreciate your need for firearms???

In a communist (or authoritarian) nation, a bit of US$ goes a long way.

[cyclops]

Problem with that is you need to have more money than the guys before you.

[safewalrus]

Hey apart from Cyclops and a few others of that ilk I would suggest that the pansey milksops stay at home! why the hell are you going boating which is after all a bit of an adventure after all - too many movies?:)

[mackid068]

Boating is relaxing. That's why. Fun, relaxation and, occasionally, speed.

[harlemriverman]

Crime is an academic discussion until it happens to you. Then it’s a no brainer.

[cyclops]

There are web sites that give a constant running daily total of the piracy attacks from the suvivors and the local news papers. You may buy your way around local waters. But you are foreign garbage to many Pirates.

[Vega]

Take a look at this site. It contains an interesting overview regarding yacht piracy.

http://www.yachtpiracy.org/en/index.htm

[cyclops]

Do a web search of ---pirate attacks at sea----. Trees look very good.

[yokebutt]

Parts of- Colombia/Venezuela, Banda strait, Red sea, and a few more, read up before you go.

Yoke.

[marshmat]

My city just this week declared it illegal for residents to put signs on their doors or porches (a tradition that goes back many decades), citing anti-graffiti initiatives as the reason. (They do, however, only enforce it in the student districts, and not in the rich retiree districts.) This is what passes for crime around here.... I'm not sure I want to experience what passes for crime in Venezuela.

[Baldur]

More pirates in the news:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBQBRVZPFE.html

[cyclops]

Now you know what the deck games are in African waters.

[chandler]

Now do any of you think that you could combat the type of piracy described in Baldurs link? I think not, if you tried you'd be dead. Stay away from the areas prone to pirates unless you can out run them or outgun them which seems increasingly unlikely.

[mackid068]

Outgun? No. Outrun...now that's a different story. Anyone thinking about powerboating 'round the world? Outrunning may not always be possible, so carry cash.

[D'ARTOIS]

The horn of Africa is since the Queen of Sheba - together with Nigeria as a beautiful 2nd - the worst hellhole in Africa.
They managed even to drive the US Troops out of the country, so you may conclude that there is no way to outgun them.

Specificly in Muslim controlled countries you will find this new activity rapidly coming up; followed by the drug-exporting countries.

I wonder if the particular governments are not involved. A yacht is an easy prey and in this respect somebdy told me about the grasshoppers in the Caribean.
What are "grasshoppers"?
According to my spokesman, a "grasshopper" is a drugrunner that is on the outlook for a yacht and when they have found something of their liking, they board, dump the crew and take the hijacked yacht to their country for loading it wit their cursed merchandise.
Somewhere I am tended to believe that in particular in the Caribean the number of yachts that dissappear, or people, is much higher than what happens to be presented in the statistics.

If I see the enormous volume of drugs that needs to be brought into the US and Europe, the Caribean area must be a terrible boiling pot of criminality.
There is not a single island where the local people are not involved in drugrunning, again according to my spokesman, a police officer specialised in organised crime.

A friend of mine recently visited Fortaleza in Brazil. I asked him if he had been sailing. No, he had not seen a yacht at all. Well, the previous posts have answered that.

There is a Muslim organised uprising in France at this moment. More than 5000 cars have been incenerated but the politicians don't dare to act, afraid they are of lifting the lid of the box of Pandora.

Slowly we are sinking back to medieval circumstances. Unfortunately we have no Adriaen de Ruyter from who the pirates were scared to death, because that's what their end becam........

[dannyb]

The magazine called Latitudes & Attitudes has a regular section on the latest pirate encounters. In there recently was an account of a firefight in which the cruising sailor seemed to come off best.

In my opinion, the best defense is speed. Perhaps not practical on a deep-keeled monohull sailing boat, but on a sailing cat this is a real option. I'd be inclined to overpower with a couple of four-stroke outboards. In many cases, it seems that the pirate vessel/s followed and caught up slowly, then made a last-minute dash for the victim. Being able to keep a decent distance sounds like the best tactic to me. It is hard for any pirate to shoot accurately from a bouncing powerboat, especially at another fast-moving vessel.

As far as carrying arms on board: if the stash-place is extremely well hidden, then I guess a simple shotgun is useful. Although trained as a marksman in the South African army, my own opinion of guns is very low.

Dan

[cyclops]

None of you are being real. You are want to invade their waters of control.

[chandler]

How about that sonic weapon? Cash? They gonna let you live after you give them all your cash???

[safewalrus]

How about the old system - some bloody big naval ships gunning the hell out of anything that moves for a few days. Ok use yachts as decoys to draw the buggers out then blast 'em Nothing like death to solve all sorts of problems!:D :confused: :D

[cyclops]

I would love to be Safewalrus's Weapons officer! Aarrrrr.

[marshmat]

Walrus- How about we just give all the pirates Canadian submarines? That'll get rid of them pretty quick! ;)

[safewalrus]

Holdhard there marshmat, those submarines used to be ours! the old 'U' boats where the best diesel boats in the world, until the Labour Party sold 'em off! mores the pity! Hey they'd be good for sneaking up on Pirates - there again most of our old submariners where Pirates - the good thing was you could smell them coming miles away! with Modern boats they actually have enough water to wash with when submerged (nah I don't believe that, no fun in it!) sigh ;)

[chandler]

There's an idea...travel with a navy escort.

[ron17571]

The rich looking yacht thing,no mention of the other pirates,the public officials,folks who want to steal your avon and how u leave your ship to go ashore.Im sure nobody watches ships in harbors for these things?ive always likes shotguns for the variety of things that can be fired from them,i likes the flare pistol idea and always considered some sort of flame thrower,mabe diguised as a scuba tank.Nice when u leave your country and are at the mercy of other countrys officials,ive read horror storys over the years from many countrys.tried by twelve or carried by six,good luck!

[seadogs20]

Its the small boat pirate you have to look out for

[saeble]

www.37mm.com

problem solved :)

any pirate willing to go after a boat when something is foaming up the sea across thier bow, deserves a fair fight for his prize.

[seadogs20]

In the most dangerous areas (sulu sea, Indonesia,anywhere se asia) are not small fishing boats thinking they might make a few bob if they try to board a yacht with a old rusty gun......No no these guys are in very fast boats 36-40 knts and have big machine guns on there bows. You come out brandishing a shot gun and your in more trouble than the early settlers. When I have been boarded in Indo it's has been by the Indo Navy and once by the phils coast guard, they want drink and money, cigs ...give it to them and get them off.

[seadogs20]

your boat

[saltydog98]

fire arms into foriegn countrys may end you up in thier jails, BUT there's a simple solution for self protection. A 12 guage flair pistole, a insert any machine can make you and a instant single shot pistol, legal everywhere. personally i chose a 45 cal colt long, yes it kicks but it has tremendous stopping power and it's already save my life off the coast of china near guemoy.

[safewalrus]

Single shot is more dangerous than none at all, unless you have several and a dedicated, efficient reloader. As Well as a boat driver!!:(

better pump action shotgun (X 2) lots of plug and large shot (#2) well hidden! Drop a bouy before entering harbour, recover on departure, no markings, no liability! If you have to use it leave it with the sunken pirate (he's dead - NO SURVIVORS, remember, non whatsoever [ this includes your own crew if they are unreliable! why are you taking unreliable crew into bandit country?):cool:

Get new weapons elsewhere!:cool:

Remember to prosecute there has to be proof, no records, no proof - hide the bloody camera!:cool: :D

[seadogs20]

well good luck to you all who want to carry arms on board, it's your funeral.

[saeble]

well if nothing else, the open ocean is one of this worlds last best open shooting and skeeting ranges, if its the guns you like as much as defending yourself from any particular sea faring nefarian

[saeble]

better pump action shotgun (X 2) lots of plug and large shot (#2) well hidden! Drop a bouy before entering harbour, recover on departure, no markings, no liability! If you have to use it leave it with the sunken pirate

one little techincality here, unless you are using a rifled slug in your shotgun, or using a rifled barrel, or some other form of firearm which actively engages the projectile, ( and hence marks it for later identification), there's little chance of any forensic ballistics linking your gun to a dead pirate. The only slight risk is identification from firing pin(gun)/primer(shell) matchup, though if you make sure you collect your hulls, problem solved.

Buckshot tells no ballistic tales.

As far as good marine shotguns go, the Nova H20 by Benellli is the go. Stainless and synthetics and highly resistant to salt water. (no commercial interest here )

[safewalrus]

One other technicality, if reports of 'pirates' being shot up coast then the mere fact you have a gun will be enough to get you 'banged up' (no pun intended) especially if the 'arresting officer' is the brother of the 'pirate'. so smart arse dump the bloody gun, then there's little chance of being blamed is there? 'course if some daft bugger comes in behind you with a 'smart' attitude he'll get clobbered which is even better for you!

It's a 'rat race' and a naughty world your entering into matey!!

Your good point, yep I like the gun it's ideal - if expensive, better hope you don't need to use it, but if you do I'd be interested to see how you collect your used 'shells' (good swimmer?)

[longliner45]

If you do not want pirate trouble, why do you go into their waters, delibertly challenging them to come and get your American boat and lives? YOU are worse than them. Usually, 2 types of people go into those waters. Naive travelers and people who do business with one of the groups. Rich
its because we are free man and we dont live our lives hidding from thugs and punks...Ill go were I want when I want. if I have to deal with them Ill do it on my terms;besides they dont own any waters!

[tansails]

Alarming prospects in Muslim waters these days of simply being killed as part of the great war against the white man. It is a shame that you cannot sail safely through many seas without arming yourself, but that is what I would do to ensure the vessel safety, reading these posts I see successfull counter attacks against well armed pirate boats that were out to kill them. No need to report such events either untill you are home !

No matter how well armed the boats still need to come alongside to board you and I can think of several effective defensive weapons for the otherwise unarmed boat.

Those of us that have had military training will be familiar with the scenario, seems a little strategy would win the battle even if you were outgunned.

I suppose it comes down to whether you are prepared to fight for your rights, and fight for your property. Or risk rape torture and death with the hope that pacifisim will be treated accordingly, this often will not happen.

Tristan jones in his Tri "Outward Leg" on a Colombian cruise armed his boat with molotov cocktails, the attack never came but he felt better for at least having the option to fight.

The decision for battle need only be made after assessing the enemy. But if you only have determined pacifism and it becomes apparent that those machette wielding men are going to kill everyone aboard....what then ?

[safewalrus]

hide behind the big brown wall you've just made!

Like your stance 'tansails' - bit like a boy scout - Be Prepared - which is what a lot of us are saying it's just that the great Pacifist [all of 'em] can not see reason and will not do a damn thing until they see their wives and daughters being raped and / or worse (what is worse? other than knowing that there was a way to prevent it but the person who had this chance wouldn't use it for some stupid moral viewpoint):D

[Wellydeckhand]

Most People over look pressurize hoze of sea water aim at prowler would giv them pirate zero visiblity and convince to go away...... unless they have a launcher ready at hand.......:D:D:D

[marshmat]

My local police force would agree- they're talking about getting a couple of those water cannons themselves. Probably a better bet in my books than carrying loaded firearms and having to bribe port officials to do so. If they want your boat or its contents enough, though, no gun- water or lead- will stop the most dedicated professional pirates. My choice would be to always travel with another boat in such areas, and have non-lethal gear like water cannons, combustion inhibitors, etc. ready to deploy if the need arises. If you must carry a gun... well, that's out of my range.

[mcollins07]

It's like hiking in bear country. ...So far I've never seen campers in bear country armed to the teeth like special forces, but that seems to be about what some people seem to think is rational in regards to yachting in places that are the human equivalent.

No offens here, but this sounds like a strange comment to me. I guess the USA is still a gun culture even though many want to make guns illegal, because as I make an analogy to bear country, I would say that any rational person would not go hiking in bear country without take adaquate protection... at least a side arm.

Michael

[safewalrus]

Mike - in some cases we ain't talking rational here!

Water cannon, yep Welly' good idea just one small problem - you need a hellof a pressure to knock pirates (or anyone else for that matter) over, you must knock em over to be any good, and for this you need a very large pump! Your average yacht wash deck pump is to small (if you have one, most people use buckets). People do not have the space nor fuel to run a pump and the main engine at the same time, this means that whilst good for the average commercial vessel it ain't so good for the average yacht! Pity in the right hands it can be very effective, as a last resort before bringing out the guns! Might even prevent the need for guns!

[BillyDoc]

How about modifying that deck-wash pump to use diesel fuel and equip it with an igniter. It might be more effective then.

Of course, this might work best from a metal boat . . .

With the sails stowed as well.

[Wellydeckhand]

Mike - in some cases we ain't talking rational here!

Water cannon, yep Welly' good idea just one small problem - you need a hellof a pressure to knock pirates (or anyone else for that matter) over, you must knock em over to be any good, and for this you need a very large pump! Your average yacht wash deck pump is to small (if you have one, most people use buckets). People do not have the space nor fuel to run a pump and the main engine at the same time, this means that whilst good for the average commercial vessel it ain't so good for the average yacht! Pity in the right hands it can be very effective, as a last resort before bringing out the guns! Might even prevent the need for guns!

Yeh.........Well u know what we use in INdonesia? Hot chillie sensation kinda water hose it high pressure to pirate eyes......... need say more......

knock them out is crude......... but blind them temp. or giving them zero visibility is the way to go babe...........

That my ways of doing it in my area of safe sea.........It work a couple of time with young urchine that try stealing live fishry ranches..........

High pressure mean more attacking distant not knocking power. A bit of intense chillies water is wat u need...........:p:p:p

[safewalrus]

Yeah welly good one mate! and while he's blundering around blind grab him, pull down his pants and shove a cut chilli where the sun don't shine - that'll fix him GOOD!

BillyDoc - gasoline would be even better! whee!

[BillyDoc]

Walrus,

Yeah, but who wants to carry something dangerous like gasoline around? I like the pepper spray idea too . . . but then you might have a really mad pirate backed off a few feet shooting bullets at you. The fuel/igniter makes this less likely.

Bill

[safewalrus]

The good thing with the pepper spray is he wouldn't be able to shoot straight! Mind you there are times when this more curse than blessing (specially some of the 'marksmen' I've come across - couldn't hit a rifle with a barn door if you see what I mean)!

[Vega]

You should do what the pros do: :D Just prepare some nice packets with toys and nice gifts and send them overboard when you see a pirate boat approaching. They will pick the nice shiny things...and if you are lucky they will let you go in peace:p :p :p (I am not kidding, this is just what most cargo ships are doing):rolleyes:

[safewalrus]

Not when I was on Merchant ships we didn't! Full speed ahead and hoses rigged on deck, firemain primed and ready (a la wellydecwhatsit style, high pressure hoses worked). Luckily in those days they weren't so trigger happy, knew what would happen to them if they did; breakup of the old colonial powers (God listen to him, but it wasn't so long ago when they still had say and the gutss to use the gear - now they are too scared of the press to do anything! and we know the answer to that don't we - press wouldn't like it but couldn't do to much about it)!has got a lot to account for!!

[Wellydeckhand]

Yeah welly good one mate! and while he's blundering around blind grab him, pull down his pants and shove a cut chilli where the sun don't shine - that'll fix him GOOD!

BillyDoc - gasoline would be even better! whee!

Pervert Chillies lover........:D :D :D ....... You'll get L_AID with the mexican woman for your article.:!:

For what I know that trick with chillies on the :!: unshinny part:!: had been done by senorita for ages and loved it...........:D

Just juice the chillies.... and not go finding the largest mutant chillies for slapping pirate man....... Phat positively too kind.:D :D :D

WellyDeckHand...:p

P.S. Dont even try using gasoline unless u try to build another boat.:rolleyes:

[Wellydeckhand]

Mmmm........ anybody think a pepper launcher and pepper granate might do the work for extra distants?:p

The authority wouldnt' think its as killing spree but defensive act.......:D

[seadogs20]

Ya all bloody mad

[boltonprofiles]

I don't need any weapons - I only need to take the wife along and she will talk the B$"^&%£S to death...........................

[seadogs20]

I said that to the war office today"ya talking me ear off" or words to that effect....she hasnt spoken to me all day....must do that more often:)

[KajWestergard]

The only thing you need for fending of pirates is:
Gasolin
a Pump
a Hose
and
Matches.

Kind regards
Kaj Westergard
(I`m a "know-it-all" and safewalrus likes me :D , but he can´t stand that I´m always right ;) )

[safewalrus]

A message in three parts - :confused:

Thanks for the tip Seadog, must put it the test (knowing my luck she'll only half blind me which means I won't walk into too many things)!;)

'Course we're mad 'dog part of the fun!:p

Hope that's a powerpump Kaj, otherwise when your stength gives out.....WHUMP (on second thoughts....... :rolleyes:


:D :D :D

[chandler]

I bet you could find a flame thrower on ebay, probably find a nuke for that matter.
My suggestion: stay away from the area in the first place, if the sea is full of pirates what do you think the port will be like?

[seadogs20]

When I was in the "port of sarong" we were boarded by 50 officials (no joke) and a camera man.It was very difficult to keep an eye on them all, consequently we had some items stolen....its difficult to know who the pirates really are sometimes:(

[seadogs20]

mad dogs and englishmen:)

[Wellydeckhand]

I bet you could find a flame thrower on ebay, probably find a nuke for that matter.
My suggestion: stay away from the area in the first place, if the sea is full of pirates what do you think the port will be like?

Poor guy wanna be landlocked?:D :D :D

[Wellydeckhand]

When I was in the "port of sarong" we were boarded by 50 officials (no joke) and a camera man.It was very difficult to keep an eye on them all, consequently we had some items stolen....its difficult to know who the pirates really are sometimes:(

That's the adventure, tricky water make us smart and evolved into better person (seawise):p :p :p

[safewalrus]

The only thing that would make a pirate a better person is a bullet up the jacksie!

[Wellydeckhand]

:D The only thing that would make a pirate a better person is a bullet up the jacksie!

Ha......:D :D :D ...... U must paid alot of money to the crook to chime like that..........:D :D :D

Let myself try meetin some pirate during my holiday and live to tell the tale...........:) :) :) ................Begone Evil:eek: :eek: :eek: ..... Here come the holiday mood:cool: :cool: :cool: ......

[Guillermo]

I don't know if this has been posted before (No time to go all the thread up) but, What about receiving pirates with a 9000 volts fence?
http://www.secure-marine.com/yacht/index.shtml

Another interesting feature:
http://www.shiploc.com/html/about_shiploc.html

And even watchfulness from the sky:
http://www.inventus-uav.com/home.html

2005 Piracy maps:
http://www.icc-ccs.org/prc/piracy_maps_2005.php

[safewalrus]

Guillermo

The concept is brilliant, but tis only part of the job! They can still shoot you or sink you , if only in frustration! but hell it's a good start! AS LONG AS IT'S SWITCHED ON! which of course brings us to the point, how much power is needed and what happens to repeated attacks? But yes, I do like the basic concept. Would at least prevent sneak attacks (but a watchman would still be advised at all times in known waters!):D

[MikeJohns]

Gui .... Safe...

It has been done on a deterent scale , it's not such a silly idea , I talked to folk who lived and cruised extensively in the Solomons, they used to hook a cattle electric fence unit to the safety wires to deter night boardings by light fingered locals.

One determined boarding by 2 machette armed young men in the Solomons was overcome by discharging a powder fire extinguisher into their faces.

A lethal EHT can easily be produced with virtually no power requirement unless it's electrocuting someone, even then the power requirement is low. The EHT module in your old TV will kill you very economically on power :-)

All the best

[longliner45]

with 9000 volts on board , you must know that it can track on moister or dirt, and cause step potential,,,,,,,,,,,,,which will kill or burn everyone

[Wellydeckhand]

Listen to this pro, longliner45 he work with power company.:D

[MikeJohns]

with 9000 volts on board , you must know that it can track on moister or dirt, and cause step potential,,,,,,,,,,,,,which will kill or burn everyone



No step potential ? in a non conductive hull or a faraday cage (metal boat) from memory insulation only needs to be around 1mm of silicon per 1000 volts the system would only be activated in dire need and presumably could be designed with sensible fail-safes.

But as you imply any system designed to disable, kill or discourage will work just as well on those it protects unless everyone knows how to use the sytsem safely.

[longliner45]

ITS CALLED ELECTRICAL THEORY FOR A REASON! no one ever knows what it will do under a miriad of conditions, on a boat you will use a delta system. on a delta system it is its own ground. step potentiol is when electricity go to ground but not always in a straight or correct path. if you are on a fiberglass boat you are still not safe! if you are on a metal boat you are even less safe.look at your local powerlinens they carry 7200volts ac, they have heavy ceramic insulators, and bells at the end of the circut. to stop the electricity from going to ground , I would not trust my life to 10 ft of silicone much less `1 mm per 1000 volts, and you are also incorrect on the silicone thing ,,,, it must be dielectrice,silicone and as for fiberglass hulls ,even the slightest bit of dirt will track voltage,,,you see , you have primarary and secondary voltage ...primary is useualy 2400 hundred to 72 hundred the lower the voltage the higher the amps ..secondary is 120 ,240, 480,,,,,,480 is the most dangerous, wont blow you off wont let you go, and not enough to blow a fuse . bucket trucks with a fiberglass bucket and 20ft fiberglass boom are tested once a month ,at 50000thousand volts to chech for tracking and failier, it is totally unfeesable to put this kind of voltage into the hands of the regular population,,,,,,,,,to much can go wrong remember electricity travals at 187000 miles per sec , the speed of light .no time to think of the mistake you have just made,,,,,,,,,,,,,longliner

[Wellydeckhand]

er......... the chopper for oilfield operation for northsea have the same check but the lightning strike cross the body and end up at the fiber end blade and you have lucky crew swimming for life....... real story and real natural force. ELECTRIC.

[safewalrus]

Er, think your talking about static there Welly, back in the early sixties when us brits were starting to use 'choppers' for amphibious assaults and other types of warfare it was found that the build up of static in a chopper was quite dramatic! No problem until it was alll earthed! This was often done by unsuspecting deck crew waiting to sling a load onto the hovering chopper to go ashore ans the chopper and hook came down the crew reached up and the first guy to grab the hook - WHAM!!! **** he was thrown over the side or onto the deck not feeling too happy! Away boat to pickup one dazed confused sailor! Once it was found out what was doing it a chain was rigged up on a pole and the chopper earthed first - took all the fun out of underslung load transfers! but life was a little healthier for the flight deck crews! Won't tell you were a lot of this was happening but it was close to an island near you (actually your on it - back in our post colonial days)

[safewalrus]

Longliner

You've just put the blocks on what seemed a good idea! there again electrickery on small boats always was prone to problems. But better to know now than rig a set up and fry yourself!! Cheers buddy (back to the shotgun! or flare gun, or both!!)

[Guillermo]

What kills you is amperage, not voltage. I myself have been exposed to a 10.000 volts discharge in an school physics experiment, with no harm at all.
The Secure-Ship system produces a discharge of 36 mA, which produces a shock of 8 Joules, the legal limit.

[boltonprofiles]

I like the electrifying fence idea, actually, would it have to be switched on to offer a deterrent, or would they simply see it and think what else might be on board this vessel if they have gone to all this trouble to be prepared against pirates and target someone elses boat instead?
Probably, as Walrus said, they could still shoot you or the boat but still, good idea - better with it, even if it is not connected in any way than without it, even just for show.

Paul.

[BillyDoc]

What kills you is amperage, not voltage. I myself have been exposed to a 10.000 volts discharge in an school physics experiment, with no harm at all.
The Secure-Ship system produces a discharge of 36 mA, which produces a shock of 8 Joules, the legal limit.


Guillermo is quite right about this, but so is longliner. The trick to a successful electrical deterrent is to be able to insulate and contain your shocking source, presumably the lifelines. There are lots of ways to produce the source (pulsed ignition coil, neon sign transformer, TV flyback transformer, laser power supply transformer, etc.). Assuming a metal boat, the lifelines and stanchions could be mounted on ceramic pads and electrified, for example. But salt deposits on those insulators will soon render the surface conductive, I think. Or, in-line insulators in the lifelines could be used, similar to the insulators used on backstay antenna installations; but this would be ugly, and will certainly clue any border that he needs to wear his rubber gloves. (Personally, I like the idea of a "shocking surprise," so I don't want to advertise the issue. The yell that accompanies the surprise is a nice feature for waking up the sleepy crew when in port.)

The issue with this approach, then, is "how do you insulate?" I want to incorporate electrified life lines on my own (metal) boat and this problem has me slightly stumped, short of a regular fresh water washdown. Currently, I’m thinking of ceramic stanchion pads with recesses similar to the insulators longliner used on high tension lines, but only a couple of inches high off the deck.. These would have to be custom made (not as difficult as it may seem, with all the hobby kilns around) and I doubt very much that a good glazed ceramic would “track” like a plastic distributer cap will. The electrical source can also be pulsed like an electric fence “charger,” or could be dormant most of the time and triggered with a motion detector or interrupted IR light beam, etc.

Any other ideas?

[MikeJohns]

What kills you is amperage, not voltage. I myself have been exposed to a 10.000 volts discharge in an school physics experiment, with no harm at all.
The Secure-Ship system produces a discharge of 36 mA, which produces a shock of 8 Joules, the legal limit.

So we adopt the above system but increase the current capability.

Longliner
This step potential you talk of is in the air ?
How about If the voltage were applied between two lifelines you would only have the electric field around those two wires. Also we don't need terribly high voltages do we, just enough to get through the clothing, dry skin resistance etc ?

Seems the problem is what to use for the electrodes. The top lifeline and the gunnel perhaps.

It seems a good solution you hurt yourself trying to board without permission something the local authorities would be more lenient about.

Walrus
The problem with the shotgun or AK47 ( attractive as it is ) is that they confiscate them after you clear in, so no good in foriegn coastal cruising waters.

[longliner45]

too much can go wrong with high voltage , not everything is forseen, every week I get a letter explaining how 2 or 4 lineman were killed,,,,,,these guys are the best of the best for handling high voltage ,,,,,,step potential is a grey area,,yes its the amps that kill you but it only takes .5milli amps to stop your r heart! Is taken me 7 years in the trade to be were I am at, I am a first class lineman with dayton,power and light<<,,Ihave seen many accidents.

[MikeJohns]

I just looked up high voltage insulator Dielectric Strength for sleeve tubing

http://www.printasleeve.co.uk/non-shrink.asp

Conservatively

Silicone rubber is rated at 8kV/mm
PVC at 8kV/mm
PTFE 50kV/mm

I think the tracking Longliner reffers to is due to air ionisation and is a problem with power transmission networks because of the energy available. The energy could be limited massively for this application and still be very effective.

[longliner45]

no ,,the tracking im refering to is caused from dirt or impuritys.,,,salt water spray or just plain dirt,,,, ionisation is much differant,,,,,,,,, when electricity shorts or faults,it creates ionisation ,which is a conductor itself,it may cause the phases to go phase to phase,,a really big fire like an arc welder.its energized.my professional opinion would be for no one to fool with this kind of power ,,,maybe get the movie (suicide mission) lineman,from pbsand see for yourself the power of high voltage ,,,at 7200volts with 2 amps you dont have a chance

[Guillermo]

Electric fences to control stock or wildlife have been around since a long time ago. Energisers for this fences produce brief, high voltage pulses of electricity (500 microseconds each second) between the conducting wire and earth when the circuit is closed by animal contact. An animal standing on the ground and touching the electrified wire completes the circuit and receives intermittent but regular shocks to deter it. The pulsed nature of the electricity enables animals to move away from the fence, so preventing electrocution.

This is quite different than what you, longliners, deal with.

You can read a very interesting and complete paper on electric fences at: http://www.defra.gov.uk/WILDLIFE-COUNTRYSIDE/vertebrates/reports/Electric-fencing-manual.pdf

[StianM]

Don't play with electrisety on a boat. Specaly if you have a matal hull.
A curent from phase too earth will cause corotion on your hull,zink,rudder and/or proppeler.

You also have the dangers allready mentioned and salt, dirt, bird **** and seaweed is things that can show up in the moust fantastic places on a boat.
Unisolated electric circuts are a no no at ship's

Don't think about it. I have ben involved in building a 100 switchboards for ships and know how important isolation mashuring is and I have experienced that a service engineer had a switch board exsploding in he's face.
2000amps BOM. If the door to the cell was open or our switchboards where not that mecanicly strong good know what would have hapend.
He burned he's hand and had to go to hosital to pick a load off coper oxsydes out off he's eye's.
I had to go there and take pictures for documentation and I was frightend.
We had to take out the whole cell, copper, cables frame. EVERYTHING.
It was brned up, you don't know what you are mesing with befour you see it.

Listen to Longliner

[BillyDoc]

Guillermo is again right about the pulsed nature of electric fence chargers, and of course this entire system would be an isolated one so there would not be a path to cause galvanic corrosion. All of this is extremely easy to engineer. As for the effects of high power, a suitable electric fence type of device could easily be powered by a few flashlight batteries. In fact, a friend of mine has a fence charger that is entirely powered by a small solar cell array that measures roughly 25 cm by 30 cm. In other words, there is no where near the power involved that longliner regularily deals with.

The insulator problem is not so easy. As longliner points out, any surface contamination can lead to "tracking" and a resultant short. In its worse form some organic material is arced over (plastic, for example), thus carbonizing it, and the resulting carbon "track" then forms a permanent short. This problem is often seen in automobile ignition systems, usually in the distributor cover. Usually you have to replace the entire cap when this happens. If we all sailed on fresh water finding a suitable insulator would be fairly easy, and most of longliner's work probably doesn't involve salt water spray to provide that initial shorting condition . . . but we have to deal with it.

Many of us have (stupidly) left "hot" extension cords out in the rain on occasion with no bad effects. The reason nothing bad happens is this: the rain water causes a short within the exposed "plug" end of the extension cord, but this is a high resistance short that merely causes some heat from the resultant current flow . . . which then boils the water away eliminating the problem. Perhaps a ceramic insulator with salt water spray on it would have a similar result, but again, there isn't enough power available in fence-charger systems to actually do much, even if the voltage is quite high, because the available power is very low.

I think I need to do some experiments with salt spray on ceramic, both in the wet phase and in the dry. I can set this up easily, so I'll get back to you in a couple of hours.

Bill

[Wellydeckhand]

just use blow dart pack up and fire by the box by pressure. Make sure all the pirate is in sight.:)

[BillyDoc]

Ok, the issue is: "can I implement a high voltage barrier on a yacht, perhaps by electrifying the life lines?"

With proper design, I think the answer is a qualified "yes." The part that was bothering me is the fact that salt water is a very good conductor of electricity, so, I surmised, any insulator exposed to the salt water will short the system out when it accumulates salt deposits. This turns out to not be true, at least at low voltages.

I did the following experiment. On a glass plate roughly 24.5 cm long, I affixed two aluminum strips approximately 3.6 mm thick, one cm apart, with silicone sealant. I then prepared a saturated saline mixture by dissolving sea salt in tap water. When I poured this saline solution into the trough formed between the two strips and measured the electrical resistance between the two strips, the result was roughly 3 Kohms. See the left photo below.

I then placed my test apparatus on a stove top and set the temperature to its lowest setting to evaporate the saline solution. After a short while crystals began to form in the trough, and the electrical resistance had dropped to approximately 220 Ohms. See the middle photo below.

In another few minutes the saline solution had completely evaporated, leaving visible salt crystals in the trough between the two aluminum strips (see the right photo below), but the electrical resistance had risen to infinity.

I conclude from this experiment that moist salt crystals are highly conductive and will short out any imposed electrical voltage, but dry crystals (which are no longer in an ionic state) are, in fact, an insulator of sorts.

The instrument used to measure resistance was a Fluke 867B Graphical Multimeter, which imposes a very low voltage on a circuit to test resistance. Things could very well change if a high voltage were to be used, but I don’t have such an instrument (called a “Megger,” or “insulation tester”). If someone does have one of these (longliner?) perhaps they will evaporate some salt on something and give it a try?

In any case, the sort of salt buildup I tested would be rare on a real yacht, and it should also be possible to design insulators to mount stanchions on that “tuck under” like insulators used for power transmission lines — thus perhaps reducing the possibilities of accumulating wet conductive residues. Hydrophobic materials might also be used (Teflon) to repel water. It would also be possible to test the resistance of the system automatically between high voltage pulses and to build in some logic to either shut the system down if a short is found, or perhaps to impose a short low voltage current burst to burn off any moisture.

Bill

http://PoiesisResearch.com/salt.jpg