Dealing with pirates

[Frosty]

If its a Brit reg ship get the Royal Navy to sail in there guns blazing if necessary take the ship and sail it out.

Tell them this is what will happen next time. Bit of offshore training for the lads as well. Its not like your fighting an Army and they have to fight,-- they can walk away if they want, if they want to stay and fight they will get hurt,- up to them. Thats fair enough isnt it?

Better than shooting duds out into the Solent all day. Its gotten to the point that the PM dare not send or post abroad his military or Mothers complain, hes just a boy,---hey what did he joint the fking army for --go skiing in the Alps and diving in the Med?

Margaret Thacher where are you?

Errrr whats the Navy for then? Royal marines training every day--for what? We are just too civil these days,-- until all countries are civil then we can not treat uncivil with civil.

How can money freely be transfered to this country. It would seem an easy matter to stop transfer to an unknown third party,--- Geeez I cant.

I have to fil out a **** load of forms to open an account offshore,---- and to transfer to a third party --forget it. If the bank wont pay what happens next,--nothing.

Na na something is wrong here, the whole world has become corrupt like tomorrow was the last day, while the rest of the world is taxed to pay for it.

Im Ok ille just have a cup of tea and a lie down --ille be alright in a minute.

[Landlubber]

Frosty,

Try the little red pills mate, makes me feel better too......

[masalai]

Think of this... The big well known banks, Goldman Sachs, JPM, and HSBC are fraudulently stealing as much as they want from the LBMA gold market which turns over 4.5 trillion every year and no one believes the facts of the matter... HUMANS ARE STUPID, BLIND and vulnerable to any half wit scheme that someone only just a little bit brighter can think up, and will always be so - pirates are less than a minor scratch in the global scheme of things...

I have a liking for the little multicoloured ones with a chocolate flavour and a good bottle of cheap red wine...

[hoytedow]

If its a Brit reg ship get the Royal Navy to sail in there guns blazing if necessary take the ship and sail it out.

Tell them this is what will happen next time. Bit of offshore training for the lads as well. Its not like your fighting an Army and they have to fight,-- they can walk away if they want, if they want to stay and fight they will get hurt,- up to them. Thats fair enough isnt it?

Better than shooting duds out into the Solent all day. Its gotten to the point that the PM dare not send or post abroad his military or Mothers complain, hes just a boy,---hey what did he joint the fking army for --go skiing in the Alps and diving in the Med?

Margaret Thacher where are you?

Errrr whats the Navy for then? Royal marines training every day--for what? We are just too civil these days,-- until all countries are civil then we can not treat uncivil with civil.

How can money freely be transfered to this country. It would seem an easy matter to stop transfer to an unknown third party,--- Geeez I cant.

I have to fil out a **** load of forms to open an account offshore,---- and to transfer to a third party --forget it. If the bank wont pay what happens next,--nothing.

Na na something is wrong here, the whole world has become corrupt like tomorrow was the last day, while the rest of the world is taxed to pay for it.

Im Ok ille just have a cup of tea and a lie down --ille be alright in a minute.Rule Brittania!

[apex1]

This is a pilot boarding, and he is not at the waterline. then he has the freeboard to climb. But he is not in a strong position to do anything but climbing. And this man is highly trained to climb on any weather and any ship.
If he was a pirate with guns and without proper training, I think he will be an easy target.

http://www.atlanticpilotage.com/images/pilot-boarding-ship.jpg

My friend, what are you bothering with the bloody ******* details of killing, or entering ships.
It wa ALL said a century ago.............

Regards
Richard

[Fanie]

That was uncalled for Richard, please edit your post.

[dskira]

My friend, what are you bothering with the bloody ******* details of killing, or entering ships.
It wa ALL said a century ago.............

Regards
Richard

It's true. Just putting in perspective something which do not make sense.
I am glad you are back, I missed you.
Hope your internet is working now.
Daniel

[masalai]

Just pay the ransom - - or - - Join the pirates... WTF??? - - The sensible thing is to stay away from where they operate...

[dskira]

The sensible thing is to stay away from where they operate...

You get a point. The Ocean are large, why going so close to shore?
As I continue to thinK: something is not adding up in the story.

Daniel

[Frosty]

You get a point. The Ocean are large, why going so close to shore?
As I continue to thinK: something is not adding up in the story.

Daniel

I agree with you Daniel --I really do,-- something is wrong with this as you say. Richard has already explained to us that we are waisting our time and he has had the last word on this. As you can see he gets very angry when people don't do as they are told

We are not allowed to discuss Zis any more.

[Angélique]

The sensible thing is to stay away from where they operate...



You get a point. The Ocean are large, why going so close to shore?

That means instead of Suez go around Africa.

Somali pirates already go as far east as the Maldives and south beyond Madagascar and will go further if necessary.

So avoiding the Indian Ocean and cross the Pacific and the Atlantic to go from China to Europe is your solution in the long run? :rolleyes:

Cheers!
Angel

[Brent Swain]

Just like a medieval castle siege. What they used would work here. For someone boarding a large ship, a bucket of rocks dropped would do the trick. As far as I know, no country has "Rock Control" , or a "Rock registry." Lack of imagination on the part of pirate victims may be the problem.

[Angélique]

Just like a medieval castle siege. What they used would work here. For someone boarding a large ship, a bucket of rocks dropped would do the trick.

Would you do that if there is a rocket launcher aimed at your bridge?

There are three things you can do IMHO:

1) Be better armed than the pirates (links have already been passed here).

2) Have a safe room on board and hope it will stand till there is a navy ship to free you.

3) Do something in the countries where the pirates have their bases.

#2 is only a short term option since the pirates will prepare themselves for that kind of barriers in the future.

Cheers!
Angel

PS

Sorry, I forgot the fourth option; only sail in a gale cause the pirates won't board then!

[hoytedow]

That means instead of Suez go around Africa.

Somali pirates already go as far east as the Maldives and south beyond Madagascar and will go further if necessary.

So avoiding the Indian Ocean and cross the Pacific and the Atlantic to go from China to Europe is your solution in the long run? :rolleyes:

Cheers!
AngelSo rather than take care of business we should just avoid Africa all together and let it go to rot. Not a bad idea.

[Angélique]

So rather than take care of business...

I told (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/dealing-pirates-5659-118.html#post357067)just above your post how I would take care of this business, so don't give the impresion that I wouldn't.

... we should just avoid Africa all together and let it go to rot...

You obviously haven't understood what I meant, so unfortunately it is not given to you do so on your own. (or are you a bit trollish because we disagree on a other thread?)

What I said is that the consequence in the long run of staying out of pirate range (what was suggested) is to avoid the Indian Ocean which is not an option I think.

... Not a bad idea.

Too bad you think so . . . http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Cry.png

Regards,
Angel

[masalai]

http://multihull.com.au/site/ - Pirates? Wot Pirates... I feel NY and London during office hours will fund you more pirates making lots more money from you all even as we debate the Somali issue into delusion...

[Angélique]

http://multihull.com.au/site/ - Pirates? Wot Pirates...

http://multihull.com.au/site/images/stories/cov_101.jpg

Do you have a link to the ‘‘Pirates? - What pirates?’’ article for us?

(or a copy or scan of it?)

Cheers!
Angel

[masalai]

All I can suggest is "Buy the Magazine" as they are somewhat retarded in the web publishing arena... Basically redefining what is piracy and going through local examples to assert they are not really "piracy" - does not cover the "Somali experiences"...

For the present to get out of the Atlantic
a) Wait for the northern passage to open - if you have faith and believe in Global warming...
b) Go via Panama whilst you can... The Pacific and East Indian Oceans make a large playground...

[hoytedow]

Just like a medieval castle siege. What they used would work here. For someone boarding a large ship, a bucket of rocks dropped would do the trick. As far as I know, no country has "Rock Control" , or a "Rock registry." Lack of imagination on the part of pirate victims may be the problem.Good idea. Maybe some broken bottles would be good, as the boardingladders would get slick with blood, chumming the water at the same time.

[hoytedow]

Dry your tears, Angel. Keep a stiff upper lip. Africa can be saved too, but not under the current regimes.
I can't stand to see a woman cry.

[Angélique]

Maybe some broken bottles would be good, as the boardingladders would get slick with blood, chumming the water at the same time.

Tough talk from behind your desk, but would you do so when there is a rocket launcher aimed at your bridge?



.... Keep a stiff upper lip. ....

No, that's to British for me. :) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - (And even not al the British are like that)

I like your new sig ‘‘Boni pastoris est tondere pecus, non deglubere’’ only it doesn't go with the picture, that can't be a good shepherd..!!

PS - I saw you've replaced the croc image for a just shorn sheep, that's better..!!

Cheers!
Angel

[hoytedow]

Ok, keep a stiff lower lip.:)

[Frosty]

A Veagra under the tounge should do it

[Fanie]

Africa can be saved too, but not under the current regimes.
Be most interested in your plan. We can't even save ourselved here :D

Couple of sharp shooters take the boats out before they get into range. No need for violence.

[RHP]

These are tough times for pirates, President Obama has just signed an Executive Order that among other things effectively blocks ramson etc. payments by US Citizens.

As you may know the Maritime trade (vessel owners and hull and cargo insurers) has been divided in response to Piracy. This order coalesces the sentiment against treating ransom as an operating expense to shared like a rise in fuel costs, and the ethical problems of 'private navies'.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-concerning-somalia

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/message-congress-concerning-somalia

Spare a thought for the poor pirates, if business dips they´ll be claiming benefits soon.... :cool:

[masalai]

hehehe, well said

[Frosty]

Most ships fly the flag of convenience like Panama.

Ie, they are Panamanian!!

Not being able to transfer money to a third party without bank permission is nothing new at all,---at all. (im not talking gas or electric bills)

Legitimate increase in running costs! Sure,-- you and I are paying for it.

[Boston]

Just like a medieval castle siege. What they used would work here. For someone boarding a large ship, a bucket of rocks dropped would do the trick. As far as I know, no country has "Rock Control" , or a "Rock registry." Lack of imagination on the part of pirate victims may be the problem.

boiling fish oil
its even environmentally friendly

[masalai]

Do you fancy breaking all those thousands and thousands of capsules, boil, and risk being shot at by the other crew on the "pirate ship"??? That is if you wake up in time to prepare all that "welcoming stuff"...

:D :o :D :o :P :P :o :D

Why did I post - - Don't answer, - - - - - It was A rhetorical question...

Why not have a DELICIOUS curry or something appreciated in that region, laced with something GUARANTEED to give a very severe case of Diarrhoea to the boarding pirates...

[technik]

Ding. Ding.
Fanie nailed it.
The way I see it the best most resonable way to solve this problem is to deter an attack before they come into range. This can be done with sustained precision fire before they enter their wepons range. My weapons choices would be m1a (civilian version of M14 rifle, 7.62 mm NATO,max effective range 800m,click adj. Range calibrated iron sights) or if you want something cheaper and in all stainless construction: ruger mini-14 (basically a reduced size and complexity copy of the above,available in three calibers 7.62 ak,6.8spc,5.56 NATO, ranges 250,600,400m, this rifle is also available as a straight pull bolt action(they remove the gas system for export where semi-auto is prohibited,aslo in. .222 rem which is almost the same as 5.56 but a non military cartrige). Both of these rifles have 5,10,20 rd detachable magazines and can be fitted into a wood stock. 5rd flush fitting magazine and wood stock looks like a hunting rifle,"what that old thing I use that to kill sharks,if I catch any"

Now for the useage the target has to be identified via radar or visually as soon as possible say 1000m out min. Then load 20rd mag,fire about 1rd per sec. one of their little boats will be a small target at that range but don't worry it'll get bigger just maintain your rate of fire(near misses will have strong effect).

To understand why this will work you have to put yourselves in their position. small boat bouncing all over the place,inaccurate weapons,never fired at somthing that far away,and prbably can't even clearly see the person shooting at you anyway. What would you do?

They need to be well inside of 300m to have any hope of hiting a person laying prone and that's for expert users of their weapons(see previous posts in this thread) ie russian special forces or something. All you have to do is keep firing at a target the size of a station wagon.

I would sugest no less than 10 loaded 20rd mags or 200rds or 3min 20sec of sustained precision fire.

[technik]

.....

[technik]

Sorry

[masalai]

Bang bang, they shot you down - and there are not many ports in the world that you could visit, socially or to get repairs to boat and body, . . . . with that or any sort of significant weaponry on board...

Go on, try get a visa and declare your ship has significant weaponry on board... a fool and his brain are also soon parted...

[apex1]

It's true. Just putting in perspective something which do not make sense.
I am glad you are back, I missed you.
Hope your internet is working now.
Daniel

Thanks Daniel,

yes, Internet was working all the time, but I was sailing for 5 weeks.....silent times.

To topic:

getting the allied Navy forces up with their bums seems the only real solution to me.

Regards
Richard

[technik]

Glass it into the hull somewhere. One rifle 20 loaded mag = less than 2 cubic feet. Hack open when in dangerous waters only, clean area glass back in, paint,etc.

Unless they randomly cut your boat until they find something or hapen to have a portable back skatter x-ray machine I think you should be okay. Of course make some form fitted foam blocks to give the whole package a clean profile and place it in an area that has good reason for metal reinforcment(metal detectors are easily available).

I would think anyplace that has proper customs practices also has safe waters.

[technik]

.....

[technik]

P.S.

Getting repairs is only a consideration if you survive.

[hoytedow]

technik. You can remove your double posts. It is easy. Go to edit and click on delete.

[dskira]

P.S.


Being technic has its own limitation :D
Don't pay attention, just kidding :p

Daniel

[Boston]

the basic Eigis system with quad 50s and radar controlled targeting would be the way to go on these large cargo ships

some on the bridge could authorize the fire command and after that its pretty much a done deal

system could be disabled for entering ports of call

nobody is walking through quad 50s in a dingy and surviving it

[ScottK]

Here's a link to some Paintballs filled with Capsicum. http://www.nelsonpaintball.com/less_lethal.html

I realize that these are non lethal, and the bad guys will have real guns, but man it would be fun spraying down the bad guys with a automatic paintball gun. It hurts like hell to get hit with one, and these paintballs are even weighted to cause more pain. A Tippmann with a Flatline barrel can shoot 300'.

ScottK

[BTPost]

Bang bang, they shot you down - and there are not many ports in the world that you could visit, socially or to get repairs to boat and body, . . . . with that or any sort of significant weaponry on board...

Go on, try get a visa and declare your ship has significant weaponry on board... a fool and his brain are also soon parted...

All that is REQUIRED is a Certified Customs Locker, that can be Sealed upon entering Port, and UnSealed upon clearing Port... via UN Conventions on High Seas Navigation... Do you think Visiting Military Vessels throw their small arms overboard, every time they enter a port? Most Commercial Shipping already have one Designed in, when built.

[Frosty]

And if you don"t have a safe, you simply hand them over to the armaments section of the country or the police. The only problem is a bit of paper work.

Ive done it many times.

I have walked out of the armaments and down the street In Singapore with a security guard of 16 years old and we got a Taxi. I had a Remington Pump and a 22 with a bag of ammunition. Amazing.

The common arrival document has an arms section to declare weapons.

Its not difficult, its just the expense of the security guard and taxis, Oh and the security guard was only needed to collect from the armaments and not to take them!! go figure.

Because of this most Yachties dont declare , don't talk about them, deny having any --at all-- but many have.

[Landlubber]

...many have what Frosty.....

[masalai]

I am aware of a "reported case" where sealing in a "customs locker" may not apply - unluckily the victim was the wrong boat similar to the weapons carrying but had no weapons...

[Landlubber]

...every boat that I have used OS has had a customs locker and we have never had any problems with that, but in some places (as Frosty says), you do have to send the firearms off to the local police till you leave, others let you keep them locked away.

[Angélique]

P-trap (rope in pirates prop) test. - Looks like a comercial but maybe it works.

(language was Dutch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fCozm_tP88) but I found a Enlish version and changed the vid)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISWl6Uk5Epc
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Only found Dutch info so far.....

- http://www.depers.nl/economie/474316/Piraten-hebben-nu-het-nakijken.html - (Google translation (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.depers.nl%2Feconomie%2F474316%2FPiraten-hebben-nu-het-nakijken.html&sl=nl&tl=en))

- http://www.radio1.nl/contents/15211-nederlands-idee-wondermiddel-tegen-piraten - (Google translation (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radio1.nl%2Fcontents%2F15211-nederlands-idee-wondermiddel-tegen-piraten&sl=nl&tl=en))

Good luck!
Angel

PS - This Dutch company seems not to know that this is a P-trap (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Vattenlaas.png) also :D

[technik]

Frosty you need to sue those guys for royalties.

This system is impressive but will only be effective for a short time. They will soon figure out how to come along side at 50m fire an rpg and demand that you retract the system.

A couple trained (or well practiced when in international waters) "shooters" + 2 x 2,000usd rifles(m14 or m1a national match) + 1,000usd ammo + night vision or infra-red scopes for night use + maybe two people on watch 24hr when in dangerous waters(helps to stay awake, one set of eyes on the radar) one active shooter(the other on standby) + customs locker.
This seems very much cheaper and more redundant. However big companies seem more willing to pay for a device or machine than crew or worker training and improvement:( .
Seamen will defend their ship if given the proper tools and training.

[Brent Swain]

the basic Eigis system with quad 50s and radar controlled targeting would be the way to go on these large cargo ships

some on the bridge could authorize the fire command and after that its pretty much a done deal

system could be disabled for entering ports of call

nobody is walking through quad 50s in a dingy and surviving it

Navies could arm merchant ships from their own countries, as soon as they reach international waters, along with people trained to use them, then remove the weapons and people, as soon as they approach another country's waters. They could also do a better job of disguising their navy ships as merchant ships, or arm merchant ships to cruise these waters. Given how many times pirates have mistaken navy ships for merchant ships, that shouldn't be too hard. A coat of paint could do it.This would be perfectly legal in any international law, and wouldn't have to be done that many times, to send a clear message to pirates.

[Verytricky]

Actually firearms on shipping is not a problem. Many ships do carry. You need a safe where you lock it up whilst in the waters of a 'friendly' country, and break them out when at sea.

For example, when travelling to OZ, various things are banned from being used - mostly foodstuff. So they are locked away, and when customs board the vessle - they are shown the lockup, and they apply a seal, which you can only break once outside of OZ waters.

[hoytedow]

Let us take a moment here to give a rousing cheer to the Dutch Navy for recapturing the German ship which had been taken by pirates.:) :) :)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/30/dutch-sidestep-eu-rescue-german-ship-pirates/

[Fanie]

About bloody high time someone did something eh.

[hoytedow]

Fanie. Lots of water in Florida.

[capt littlelegs]

These pirates know they're no match for the military but they also know the people controlling them are reluctant to act and so it goes on...

[Frosty]

The lack of action does seem to be a bit difficult to understand. I think we are missing something.

Why do credit cards do little to stop information interception and fraudulent use. Well !! your APR will pay for insurance and losses, and its only a small percentage that gets intercepted. Who knows what deal they have with the insurance companies.

The ships are chartered, the boxes are also owned by someone else, and as long as no one gets shot or mistreated (and the seem very careful on that point) It can carry on.

The insurance increases which we pay for, 1000 dollars a box would be sufficient on a 1000 box ship, and only a few are pirated infact its a very small percentage. A container of 100,000 Christmas trees is just 10 cents each more to ship.

But even that is way too excessive. It cant cost an extra million dollars to insure a 10 million dollar ship on one trip.

So apart from a few disgruntled crew they are making more money, and a third world country which has been a pain for many years finally gets out of its poverty and becomes less of a drain on our finances.

Hey we may be able to sell Sudan aircraft and Mercedes shortly and recoup some of our money back.

A bit far fetched you say? more than what Goldman has just done to USA and the rest of the world? Now there is piracy.

[Fanie]

a third world country which has been a pain for many years finally gets out of its poverty and becomes less of a drain on our finances.
The problem is that third world countries stay poor, they just want instant gratification hence Africa what it is. All over Africa are bands who fight wars for some piece of a mine or another way to get quick money. None of them however invest any of it for any long term income, so whatever moneys they get and in any amount, it is really short term.

If you give each philamon in Africa $100 000, in a year or two they all will be as poor as before.

Fanie. Lots of water in Florida.
Thanks Hoyte, I may call on you one day, who knows. I hear the US shoots first then ask who you are... so I may have to double the mast as a white flag pole and call the media first ;)

Seems every one is out to get the soft and easy targets (public) for their easy money instead of taking the hardened criminals on who aparently can do what they want because of the money and power involved.

A hardened criminal is not oly ones with guns, like Frosty indicated criminals comes in all forms. They seems civilized, but just look at what happens as a result.

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=Fanie;None of them however invest any of it for any long term income, so whatever moneys they get and in any amount, it is really short term.

If you give each philamon in Africa $100 000, in a year or two they all will be as poor as before.
[/QUOTE]

They don't need to invest it -just spend it and it will filter through to everyone. Spending is like investing, the money will go somewhere even if its on booze.

If Sudanese Piracy continues then sudan will become rich through its own efforts, illegal or not it will not have been with the help of other governments giving money directly. The man in the street through more expensive shipping will have been responsible and even paid taxes on it.

[kckclass]

There are many ways to deal with pirates. We had a violent maniac in our harbor for 3 years and several of us were helping county, state and federal agents nail this guy - finally did - in the process he fired high power rifle at my boat on 3 occasions in the middle of the night. Concrete is a pretty good defense against that and concrete boats are cheap and rather durable to say the least - still my favorite material - just wish I could get Oyster to use it (heh heh) - and I'd be set. To this day the finest boat that has ever been in our harbor - best systems all around - was ferro.

Onward:

If the pirates have a 50 caliber your hull ain't gonna stop it. The good news is if they are heavily armed and murderous (not just out for a quick cash-hit and some booze), they probably want the boat and don't want holes in it, so its unlikely they'll fill the boat with holes - especially if one of their crew is stuck inside. A good method is a solid kick-proof campanionway hatch that can be controlled from the bow. They board - duck to the bow - watch one (on camera) enter the open campanionway - then trigger the hatch - ka-boom - yer inside now pal - pump it full of NO2 and they drop - face down and out in under 10 seconds - its called a hostage and almost guarantees they won't start firing rounds into the hull. Its especially nice if they brought you a gun to seize.

This buys you time and if you secure your hostage - gives you a bit of leverage as well - especially if you speak their language and are willing to make a man scream a bit. I grew up in East L.A. so that part of the equation isn't really a problem for me. For some it may be difficult - but hey - whatever floats your boat.

Then there are the 3 - 5 bums outside in your cockpit that want you dead. Boats sittin in seawater are rather easy to rig for copious production of hydrogen - which will pretty much scatter the rats from the cockpit after 5 seconds on the electrolyzer to create the gas - then a flick of the pizzo unit. Total cost - less than $100 bucks - and its not like you sprayed the cockpit with a liquid flammable - the gas goes up - the flame is invisible - but sure enough when their hair and clothing are on fire you can guarantee the majority of them are gonna be jumping in the water in a hurry.

That leaves 1 or 2 on deck trying to figure out how to crack the hatches - once again - if the screaming man is telling his mates to get lost - they'll leave - if not - get him to scream and beg - making a man scream isn't hard really. Ask any teenage son - they'll show you how. Most wives know how instinctively.

So - here you are - stuck down below - a bunch of scorched pissed off pirates boarding their boat (probably not yours) and the guys on deck getting the message and getting off while they regroup.

Next message to have your friend pass on (assuming you speak the language) - get lost and your friend lives and won't go to jail - stick around and he's gonna be screaming a whole lot more. A little more begging and screaming by your hostage and there's a chance - slim as it is - that they will split and leave him to fend for himself.

Plan B: instead of using NO2 - when electrolyzed, seawater produces copious amounts of hydrogen (for the cockpit fireworks) - and chlorine. Having worked on naval ships any gas - like CO2 - in a confined space is bad. But if you're in the bow with positive ventilation - and 3 - 5 of these creeps are rummaging around down below (welcome rats - enjoy the galley - please) then when the hatch slams shut and you push the button you've got a pile of bodies in under 30 seconds - if not less. Wait 3 minutes while the few up on deck are trying to kick in your kick proof hatch - (not likely to shoot or use grenades with their pals locked down below) - and then air out the boat - won't help the dead ones much - then push the button - open the hatch - and let the next batch of mice in. They'll see their friends, might think they are just passed out etc. - and you can repeat the process.

At no time did you have to use gunpowder - the magic substance that causes police dogs to tell their government owners to rip your boat apart.

Plan C: got hydrogen? Great - rigging a large 40MM cannon that can take out darn near anything is rather simple - and small 1/4 oz fishing weights make great shot - absolutely - the longer the barrel the better and its unlikely anyone is going to want to come too close with that sort of spray.

The problem with that is range - their guns can out distance you and if you piss them off, they're likely to get just out of your range - and start filling your boat with holes. So personally, I'd prefer to rig the gas methods - cheaper too - and then once they've left the vessel you can always whack their boat at close range with the "rotating Davit" that sprays lead - has no gun powder associated with it and is likely to pass any boat inspection without being detected as a cannon. Sort of depends on your engineering skills. A friend of mine from Vietnam was a 'Arms Master' or some such title and showed me 50 ways to make rifles and shotguns out of next to nothing. Add hydrogen gas and you've got woof. Growing up in East L.A. I saw plenty of 1 shot zip guns - and there are plenty of ways to create a multi-fire cannon you can utilize while tucked in the bow.
Yeah - its a pain. Yeah - for some folks its not worth risking a false gas trigger, flame broiling your cocktail guests (no Helen - that was NOT the toilet switch you pressed) - or accidentally knocking out all your guests with NO2 - although I do know a few pirates who might want to do just that.

Plan D: John, his wife and son were off the West Coast of Columbia. He used the "stash the gun" method and had a small rifle - good scope. When they were tailed for 2 days by some scragly looking fellers John and his son went out on the stern and started releasing balloons, waiting until they were good and far away - then popping them with the rifle to demonstrate they had the distance thing down pat. The scragly fellers left rather quickly.

That said - not sure if I'd want to carry gun powder - there are ways to mask that but if you're caught in the wrong place with the wrong firearms you're homeless in a blink.

I like hydrogen cannons - I've made small ones (with kids actually) and they work well. Nearly every sailor has used a potato cannon (hope so), so the technology really isn't brain surgery - the fuel is legal (yup) and easy to make (unlimited as long as the boat is on water - go figure) and that just leaves the amount of fishing buck shot you can carry. That plus the right gas (choose between knock-out or kill) and a kick-proof campanionway with a little automated selenoid (not hard to rig at all) and you've got game they've never seen before - and that adds to the fun and your advantage.

Impractical? Perhaps for some folks - but for sadistic murderous creeps like me - who went straight at age 20 - pirates aren't a threat - they are an amusing afternoon waiting to happen and if I was a cannibal, I'd have lunch for for a party of 10 for several days after the event and five new shrunken heads for the bow sprit - now THERE'S a message for Pirates....hmmmm...I may have to edit this post again.

[apex1]

There are many ways to deal with pirates. .

Wow..................



Hey the next WW can come..................no worries!

..now we have kickass on our side.

did I spell the name right?

[Boston]

I kinda liked it

[Fanie]

Well, I think one can always have the boom serve it's second function as a cannon. It's long enough to be accurate too.

Then there's the mast. If you shoot the bomb up straight by the time it comes down the pirates should be right under it.

Why would they follow you for days at end ? Pirates have scrawney appearance ? Half the sailors I seen looks scrawney, weathered and should probably be put down, just in case then. It's only in the new boat adds where the sailors wear a suit and tie.

I like hydrogen cannons - I've made small ones (with kids actually) and they work well
I have to admit this sounds like a good idea to me, especially some people's kids can be made into hydrogen bombs for all I care. I bet it's the teeth doing the most damagage when they tear into you... aparently dental plaque is very poisenous. That placue on the tooth is going to kill you very quickly if it gets into the brain for instance.

but for sadistic murderous creeps like me - who went straight at age 20 - pirates aren't a threat - they are an amusing afternoon waiting to happen and if I was a cannibal,...
Wow ! The forum's first near-canibal :eek: I'm sure pirates aren't a treat, they probably smell and will be a bastard to clean properly for cooking.

I wonder if all canibals are sadistic murderous creeps... I'm sure the more gentle ones wait patiently around for their meal to die piecefully, of natural causes ?

Boy, you went straight early. Some still having problems deciding between guys and wiemen even at old age. If you say straight, which did you decide on, guys or galls :confused:

LMAO. We need some alternative entertainment other than fishing once in a while. Be good to do something else every other afternoon than just boring fishing or sailing. Having fun with pirates sounds about perfect...

Plan D: John, his wife and son were off the West Coast of Columbia.
I know them !! They have neve been to Luanda and neither have I, so I must know them. How the hell are they ? They still have the small gun with the good scope ?

[Fanie]

Hey the next WW can come..................no worries!

As long as Chuck Norris and Kickass is on our side, who worries ? I wonder how long Chuck is going to BBQ in Iceland yet... ? He must be hungry.

Who will the next WW be against ? The world has become so small with the internet at our finger tips and the whole world has basically united due to it... we now know people from all over. Maybe the ones who doesn't have internet yet ? It would be less personal and emotional getting rid of them. Blow them up with their own kid hydrogen bombs...

Oh sht.... I better go eat. Had my second warning from the wife about 5 mins ago. If I don't go NOW there will be a war that will make the next WW looks like hydrogen bomb childeren looks like childs polay. Excuse me...

[Boston]

Im going to guess the Chinese will be feeling there oats before long

[Ike]

Not a good idea. Most Coast Guards today have echo soundinbg devices specifically designed for finding hidden compartments. They are used mostly to find drugs but they can find any empty space.

[Ike]

And speaking of pirates this was on the news yesterday

Pirates on Falcon Lake
ESPN
Citing several armed robberies and attempted armed robberies on Falcon Lake in Zapata County, the Texas Department of Public Safety, the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department and the Zapata County Sheriff's Office are strongly urging boaters on Falcon Lake to stay on the United States side of the lake and not venture into Mexican (waters).....
Three reported incidents since April 30 have raised concern among law enforcement officers in the Lake Falcon area. Two of the three incidents involved United States citizens who had gone into the Mexican side of the lake, passing the International Waters markers. Most of the incidents occurred in the Old Guerrero area, but it's possible that other areas are a concern as well.
http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/fishing/news/story?id=5207299

[troy2000]

There are many ways to deal with pirates. We had a violent maniac in our harbor for 3 years and several of us were helping county, state and federal agents nail this guy - finally did - in the process he fired high power rifle at my boat on 3 occasions in the middle of the night. Concrete is a pretty good defense against that and concrete boats are cheap and rather durable to say the least - still my favorite material - just wish I could get Oyster to use it (heh heh) - and I'd be set. To this day the finest boat that has ever been in our harbor - best systems all around - was ferro.

Onward:

If the pirates have a 50 caliber your hull ain't gonna stop it. The good news is if they are heavily armed and murderous (not just out for a quick cash-hit and some booze), they probably want the boat and don't want holes in it, so its unlikely they'll fill the boat with holes - especially if one of their crew is stuck inside. A good method is a solid kick-proof campanionway hatch that can be controlled from the bow. They board - duck to the bow - watch one (on camera) enter the open campanionway - then trigger the hatch - ka-boom - yer inside now pal - pump it full of NO2 and they drop - face down and out in under 10 seconds - its called a hostage and almost guarantees they won't start firing rounds into the hull. Its especially nice if they brought you a gun to seize.

This buys you time and if you secure your hostage - gives you a bit of leverage as well - especially if you speak their language and are willing to make a man scream a bit. I grew up in East L.A. so that part of the equation isn't really a problem for me. For some it may be difficult - but hey - whatever floats your boat.

Then there are the 3 - 5 bums outside in your cockpit that want you dead. Boats sittin in seawater are rather easy to rig for copious production of hydrogen - which will pretty much scatter the rats from the cockpit after 5 seconds on the electrolyzer to create the gas - then a flick of the pizzo unit. Total cost - less than $100 bucks - and its not like you sprayed the cockpit with a liquid flammable - the gas goes up - the flame is invisible - but sure enough when their hair and clothing are on fire you can guarantee the majority of them are gonna be jumping in the water in a hurry.

That leaves 1 or 2 on deck trying to figure out how to crack the hatches - once again - if the screaming man is telling his mates to get lost - they'll leave - if not - get him to scream and beg - making a man scream isn't hard really. Ask any teenage son - they'll show you how. Most wives know how instinctively.

So - here you are - stuck down below - a bunch of scorched pissed off pirates boarding their boat (probably not yours) and the guys on deck getting the message and getting off while they regroup.

Next message to have your friend pass on (assuming you speak the language) - get lost and your friend lives and won't go to jail - stick around and he's gonna be screaming a whole lot more. A little more begging and screaming by your hostage and there's a chance - slim as it is - that they will split and leave him to fend for himself.

Plan B: instead of using NO2 - when electrolyzed, seawater produces copious amounts of hydrogen (for the cockpit fireworks) - and chlorine. Having worked on naval ships any gas - like CO2 - in a confined space is bad. But if you're in the bow with positive ventilation - and 3 - 5 of these creeps are rummaging around down below (welcome rats - enjoy the galley - please) then when the hatch slams shut and you push the button you've got a pile of bodies in under 30 seconds - if not less. Wait 3 minutes while the few up on deck are trying to kick in your kick proof hatch - (not likely to shoot or use grenades with their pals locked down below) - and then air out the boat - won't help the dead ones much - then push the button - open the hatch - and let the next batch of mice in. They'll see their friends, might think they are just passed out etc. - and you can repeat the process.

At no time did you have to use gunpowder - the magic substance that causes police dogs to tell their government owners to rip your boat apart.

Plan C: got hydrogen? Great - rigging a large 40MM cannon that can take out darn near anything is rather simple - and small 1/4 oz fishing weights make great shot - absolutely - the longer the barrel the better and its unlikely anyone is going to want to come too close with that sort of spray.

The problem with that is range - their guns can out distance you and if you piss them off, they're likely to get just out of your range - and start filling your boat with holes. So personally, I'd prefer to rig the gas methods - cheaper too - and then once they've left the vessel you can always whack their boat at close range with the "rotating Davit" that sprays lead - has no gun powder associated with it and is likely to pass any boat inspection without being detected as a cannon. Sort of depends on your engineering skills. A friend of mine from Vietnam was a 'Arms Master' or some such title and showed me 50 ways to make rifles and shotguns out of next to nothing. Add hydrogen gas and you've got woof. Growing up in East L.A. I saw plenty of 1 shot zip guns - and there are plenty of ways to create a multi-fire cannon you can utilize while tucked in the bow.
Yeah - its a pain. Yeah - for some folks its not worth risking a false gas trigger, flame broiling your cocktail guests (no Helen - that was NOT the toilet switch you pressed) - or accidentally knocking out all your guests with NO2 - although I do know a few pirates who might want to do just that.

Plan D: John, his wife and son were off the West Coast of Columbia. He used the "stash the gun" method and had a small rifle - good scope. When they were tailed for 2 days by some scragly looking fellers John and his son went out on the stern and started releasing balloons, waiting until they were good and far away - then popping them with the rifle to demonstrate they had the distance thing down pat. The scragly fellers left rather quickly.

That said - not sure if I'd want to carry gun powder - there are ways to mask that but if you're caught in the wrong place with the wrong firearms you're homeless in a blink.

I like hydrogen cannons - I've made small ones (with kids actually) and they work well. Nearly every sailor has used a potato cannon (hope so), so the technology really isn't brain surgery - the fuel is legal (yup) and easy to make (unlimited as long as the boat is on water - go figure) and that just leaves the amount of fishing buck shot you can carry. That plus the right gas (choose between knock-out or kill) and a kick-proof campanionway with a little automated selenoid (not hard to rig at all) and you've got game they've never seen before - and that adds to the fun and your advantage.

Impractical? Perhaps for some folks - but for sadistic murderous creeps like me - who went straight at age 20 - pirates aren't a threat - they are an amusing afternoon waiting to happen and if I was a cannibal, I'd have lunch for for a party of 10 for several days after the event and five new shrunken heads for the bow sprit - now THERE'S a message for Pirates....hmmmm...I may have to edit this post again.

You may have issues, son. Although some of what you're saying makes sense, you're spending entirely too much time dwelling on the miseries and screams of that pirate you have trapped in the cabin. You're damn near wallowing in his misfortune.

You're also wrong, if you think pirates are such spiritual, sensitive beings that they're going to abandon their evil ways just to save one of their own from the likes of you. My guess is that if anything, you'll just piss them off when you make him start screaming.

By the way, that violent maniac you mentioned couldn't have been using much of a 'high-powered' rifle. I have about a dozen old Russian bolt-action Army rifles in my collection. They fire 7.62x54R rounds; that's about the ballistic equivalent of the .30-06 round that American military rifles used, from before WWI right up to the M-14's in Vietnam. I guarandamntee that a bullet from one would go straight through the average ferro-cement yacht's hull, if it hit it at a reasonably straight angle. They'll hole an old engine block from side to side at a hundred yards, with a lead-core hunting round. As a matter of fact, I'm betting even my old lever-action Winchester .30-30 would put a hole in a normal ferro-cement sailboat, from a reasonable distance.

When the .30-06 round was still fairly new, there was a bad guy who got into a shootout with a sheriff and his posse in Arizona. He was sheltering behind a pine tree big enough to completely hide him, and ducking out to take quick potshots. The sheriff was armed with a .30-06 rifle, so he shot the S.O.B.--straight through the center of the tree.

[rasorinc]

As I've stated in previous posts....WWII flame thrower just fire it off once and they will be long gone. A trully frightening weapon.

[Brent Swain]

Pirates often use older wooden boats , sometimes with gas engines. I think a molotov cocktail, or several , would give them other things to keep then busy for a while.

[Boston]

I've often wondered why an automated pepper spray cannon wouldn't work out pretty well

that or that quad 50 we were talking about about 1500 posts ago

[hoytedow]

Catapult hornets' nests. Medieval but interesting to watch.

[baboonslayer]

quad 40mm Bofors!

Might be a couple hundred thousand dollars, but has epic range and destructive power!

Well, you figure the cost of the 40mm shells and the crew to operate it, not to mention the license you would probably need to own this weapon of mass destruction, might as well get a class 1 permit and buy a quad M2 Browning, aka "Meat Chopper." (like Boston mentioned above).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm

[fastback4]

You said "Gerillas", not "Gorillas". Big difference!!

[Knut Sand]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

The number of pirates seem to grow....

"It happened about 40 miles (64 km) out to sea, in international waters."

That makes this an act of piracy...

There are other solutions and ways to stop a ship, with no harm to the people onboard...

[Brent Swain]

These pirates are armed by, and depend on, your tax dollars for their existence. So what will their financial supporters do to deter their goonsmanship? Probably not enough. Will any of you demand we do more? Not likely.

[troy2000]

These pirates are armed by, and depend on, your tax dollars for their existence. So what will their financial supporters do to deter their goonsmanship? Probably not enough. Will any of you demand we do more? Not likely.


Tell me: were you this self-rightous the last time a Palestinian suicide bomber blew up a public bus or a family restaurant in Israel? How about all the times Hamas randomly fired Qassam rockets at Israeli towns? Or back when Hamas and Fatah thugs and goons were killing each other in the streets, and blowing up each other's homes and families over who gets to control and skim the international aid pouring into Gaza? Did you write condemning blurbs when Palestinian militants abducted and murdered Christian shop owners, and blew up the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City?

Will you ever demand that Egypt unseal its border with the Gaza Strip, thereby rendering Israel's blockade pointless?

Not bloody likely.

[watchkeeper]

Tell me: were you this self-rightous the last time a Palestinian suicide bomber blew up a public bus or a family restaurant in Israel? How about all the times Hamas randomly fired Qassam rockets at Israeli towns? Or back when Hamas and Fatah thugs and goons were killing each other in the streets, and blowing up each other's homes and families over who gets to control and skim the international aid pouring into Gaza? Did you write condemning blurbs when Palestinian militants abducted and murdered Christian shop owners, and blew up the Christian Youth Organization's library in Gaza City?

Will you ever demand that Egypt unseal its border with the Gaza Strip, thereby rendering Israel's blockade pointless?

Not bloody likely.

Just a thought but I reckon we should keep the discussion on the water and leave lala land to those that live there.

KCKClass - no offence intended, the whole on the boat senario gas em kind of thing was good value as a plot, but I can tell you from personal experience (working with them only on their turf ) that Yemenites, Bedouin, Somalis Eritrean and other Gulf types don't play by your rules. These guys up close in hi threat situ are dangerous and unpredictable and never pussies. If the're armed What ever you start with these guys be very sure you can finish.
They have nothing to loose, compassion or care aren't in their volcabury - its a region where harsh enviroment begets harsh people with no rules or consideration.

For my money and experience dealing with the Indonesians around (Pulua/Batam/Bintan) the Straits of Malaccais probably more dangerous. If you want to find out try getting away from a motor vehicle accident involving a death and your the only expat (passenger) involved. In less than a minute a deserted road has 50 to a hundred very unhappy locals.

It gets very real very fast in some places....

[Knut Sand]

Ok, I was a tiny bit too swift there, just a tiny bit, though....

When a ship is in International waters, there is only one government that has any juridiction towards what's going on, on that ship. The "flag" (state), noone else.

When another government, by force enters that ship, its a criminal act against mankind, (or something like that )

When the "attackers" here show pictures and videos of them being "attacked" by sticks and slings, one might also consider that the "attackers" first managed by force land heavily armed elite soldiers on the deck, which makes, in my opinion this the first crime in this line of events. That the persons onboard that ship defended themselves should not be any big surprice. One might argue that they perhaps were using unnessesary violence in this action, but sticks, iron rods and slings against regular combat weapons...? They're still below in the possibility to inflict serious harm. (well, we could also look at the numbers of casualities for an indication there...).

I'm not too impressed by the Israeli attempt to handle a situation like this. They have the equipment to stop a ship better, easier (and closer to their own border, preferably IN Israeli territorial waters for this kind of action) , and with no casualities, but chose to be ignorant to that kind of solution. Should make a "statement", no matter what the cost. The cost now seem to be a united protest from the rest of the world.

The Israelis could have requested UN/ US to inspect the unloading of the ships, in Gaza... ? Was that not an option, at all? Considered that the Israeli blokade of Gaza is not ratified by UN, in any way?

I have some sympathy with the Israelis attempt to get some control of bombs/ weapons/ missiles in that area, but this was shooting sparrows with cannons...

And by the way, most muslims, are still, being killed, by other muslims... In a period in Europe, we had the "same", most christians were killed by othe christians... :rolleyes:

Edit; AND IF the cargo is of type to be considered legal by international laws, and does not end up in the destinated ports within reasonable time (fresh food is worthless within a few days / a week..?), that makes this an undisputedly act of piracy... IMNSHO.....

[hoytedow]

Final suggestion: Magnetic rail gun. No gunpowder, just electromagnets and ball bearings or the like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OqlTXwLG40

[troy2000]

Ok, I was a tiny bit too swift there, just a tiny bit, though....

When a ship is in International waters, there is only one government that has any juridiction towards what's going on, on that ship. The "flag" (state), noone else.

When another government, by force enters that ship, its a criminal act against mankind, (or something like that )On the contrary, naval blockades are recognized by international law as a legitimate tactic of war. And the Israelis and Palestinians are certainly at war, whether people call it that or not. It's also quite common for countries to interdict smugglers on the high seas. I would hardly call either scenario a criminal act against mankind.

When the "attackers" here show pictures and videos of them being "attacked" by sticks and slings, one might also consider that the "attackers" first managed by force land heavily armed elite soldiers on the deck, which makes, in my opinion this the first crime in this line of events. That the persons onboard that ship defended themselves should not be any big surprice. One might argue that they perhaps were using unnessesary violence in this action, but sticks, iron rods and slings against regular combat weapons...? They're still below in the possibility to inflict serious harm. (well, we could also look at the numbers of casualities for an indication there...).The Israelis were hardly "heavily armed." They were carrying paint ball guns and pistols, because they didn't really expect any serious resistance, and didn't want bad publicity for being heavy-handed. It backfired on them, because it emboldened the people on board to attack them. Had the Israelis been fully armed and armored and landing in overwhelming force, they would probably have encountered no serious resistance.

I'm not too impressed by the Israeli attempt to handle a situation like this. They have the equipment to stop a ship better, easier (and closer to their own border, preferably IN Israeli territorial waters for this kind of action) , and with no casualities, but chose to be ignorant to that kind of solution. Should make a "statement", no matter what the cost. The cost now seem to be a united protest from the rest of the world.

The Israelis could have requested UN/ US to inspect the unloading of the ships, in Gaza... ? Was that not an option, at all? Considered that the Israeli blokade of Gaza is not ratified by UN, in any way? In case you've never noticed, the Israelis generally get no help from the UN whatsoever. If they're attacked and fight back, the attackers don't get condemned; the Israelis do. Somehow, outrage always seems to be reserved for the Israelis--no matter what the other side has done.
I have some sympathy with the Israelis attempt to get some control of bombs/ weapons/ missiles in that area, but this was shooting sparrows with cannons...Again, no. Shooting sparrows with cannons would have been simply sinking the ships and being done with it. Trying to land commandos basically equipped for crowd control to take control instead was a disasterous under-application of power and force.

And by the way, most muslims, are still, being killed, by other muslims... In a period in Europe, we had the "same", most christians were killed by othe christians... :rolleyes:That certainly doesn't excuse the Muslims who are busy trying to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus, other Muslim sects, etc.

Edit; AND IF the cargo is of type to be considered legal by international laws, and does not end up in the destinated ports within reasonable time (fresh food is worthless within a few days / a week..?), that makes this an undisputedly act of piracy... IMNSHO.....It wasn't necessary for anything on those ships to be brought in by sea through the Israeli blockade. The flotilla was a deliberate provocation on the part of its organizers. They sent it in the hopes an Israeli overreaction would attract sympathy for their cause, and it succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

[Knut Sand]

.That certainly doesn't excuse the Muslims who are busy trying to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus, other Muslim sects, etc.

That goes for all directions, in my opinion.

[Knut Sand]

They sent it in the hopes an Israeli overreaction would attract sympathy for their cause, and it succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

Hook, line, and sinker...
Are these professionals??:confused:

[troy2000]

Hook, line, and sinker...
Are these professionals??:confused:
The Palestinians? Yes, definitely. They're very good at working the media and world opinion; they've had years of practice.

The Israelis who were in charge of this operation? Not so much. Must've been a bunch of reservists having a bad day. If they weren't going to leave the flotilla alone, they should have shown up in an overwhelming show of force. The people on board probably wouldn't have started anything, and they could have stopped them before it got out of hand if they did.

If the Israelis had done that, they'd still be getting vilified for being bullies. But at least there wouldn't be dead bodies for their critics to point at, and they wouldn't have some of their own in the hospital.

[mark775]

Troy, you are forgetting your old tagline...Did you happen to notice that you are having a thotful discussion with Brent Swain, Knut and Kickass?

[troy2000]

Troy, you are forgetting your old tagline...Did you happen to notice that you are having a thotful discussion with Brent Swain, Knut and Kickass?

Like most people, I'm better at giving good advice than I am at following it myself.:)

[mark775]

Lol!!

[Milan]

… In case you've never noticed, the Israelis generally get no help from the UN whatsoever …

Well, as long as they have a “little” help from Uncle Sam they don’t worry much about UN, don’t they? ;)

… If they're attacked and fight back, the attackers don't get condemned; the Israelis do. Somehow, outrage always seems to be reserved for the Israelis--no matter what the other side has done…

I guess people naturally tend to simpatise with a underdog. Kind of difficult to feel sorry for the high teach army shooting at the stones throwing teenagers.

Israel – Lebanon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

… it all started when Lord Balfour on behalf of one people, promised a second people, land that belonged to the third people … (near the end, 5.01)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpvrOJQ0J0&feature=related

Iraq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0GQUtYkxfY&feature=related

[Brent Swain]

The Egyptians have opened the border. Israel was made out of land that Palestinians have owned for nearly 2,000 years. How would you react if land that your family has passed own for generations was taken away from you and you were left destitute, and you were treated as sub human from then on? You'd fight back with whatever option you were left with.
We should bear in mind that almost half of Israelis are as disgusted with this as the rest of the world is.

[troy2000]

The Egyptians have opened the border. Israel was made out of land that Palestinians have owned for nearly 2,000 years. How would you react if land that your family has passed own for generations was taken away from you and you were left destitute, and you were treated as sub human from then on? You'd fight back with whatever option you were left with.
We should bear in mind that almost half of Israelis are as disgusted with this as the rest of the world is.
Read some history before you start making sweeping statements like that.

When Jews started moving into what is modern-day Israel during the start of the Zionist movement, the lands they settled on were generally wasteland that they bought and paid for--thereby obtaining clear title from private owners if there were any, otherwise from whatever government authority there was.

Many (if not most) of the forefathers of the modern Palestinian people moved moved there in the 1800's to work for the Zionists, or to take advantage of the improved economy resulting from the reclaimed land and Jewish presence. Israel isn't any more their ancestral land than it is anyone else's.

Gotta go to work; I'll do part deux when I have time.

[troy2000]

Well, as long as they have a “little” help from Uncle Sam they don’t worry much about UN, don’t they? ;)



I guess people naturally tend to simpatise with a underdog. Kind of difficult to feel sorry for the high teach army shooting at the stones throwing teenagers.

Israel – Lebanon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

… it all started when Lord Balfour on behalf of one people, promised a second people, land that belonged to the third people … (near the end, 5.01)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpvrOJQ0J0&feature=related

Iraq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0GQUtYkxfY&feature=related

I haven't looked at your links yet, but I assume it's the usual one-sided, oversimplified garbage. You can't summarize the history of the Arab/Israeli conflict on youtube, no matter which side you favor.

Don't shrug off rock throwing so lightly; a good shot with a rock can seriously injure or even kill someone. And I personally wouldn't send my teenage sons out to provoke armed soldiers by throwing rocks at them, regardless. That's attempted suicide.

I wouldn't send them out to throw rocks at moving cars, either. That's attempted murder. If you're talking about the incident a week or two ago where a driver stopped his vehicle and got out with a gun, I'd call his actions self defense. And he may have saved someone else's family from dying in a wreck caused by a rock through their windshield.

[mark775]

Always impressive, the restraint displayed by the Isrealis.

[Fanie]

It pisses me off if they use 'innicent' bystanders as a cover up so the military cannot take action. I say the Israelies should shoot the crap out of them, sink the bloody thing, it will be good structure for fish to breed in. What was on this boat ? Weapons ?

In that one video the palistinian is accusing Israel to invade them ? But what's the whole story. The Israelies won't just invade another country without a reason or because they are bored, the palistinians have a track record of attacking and bombings on Israel.

[Frosty]

Boy you guys are quick off the mark. Give it a while to get the truth from this lying cheating world.

I have'nt seen the evidence from south Korea yet.

Remember the weapons of mass destruction that Saddam was supposed to have ---slow down.

[Milan]

… The Israelis were hardly "heavily armed." They were carrying paint ball guns …

Wow! I’ll reconsider my plans for the weekend. I was supposed to go paintballing with couple of friends. Didn’t now I might get killed. :)

Rather fortunate they sent reservists with paint ball guns. If they can make such a carnage I can imagine what would heavily armed elite troops achieve.

… Shooting sparrows with cannons would have been simply sinking the ships and being done with it.…

… shoot the crap out of them, sink the bloody thing ….

Hmm, then they would also shoot 81 years old former US ambassador and 63 years old US navy veteran.

… Give it a while to get the truth from this lying cheating world. ---slow down.

Wise advise. Then again, although information’s are rather sketchy, don’t you think that if Israelis found anything even remotely looking as a weapon of some other bad stuff that it would allready be all over media, day and night?

[Brent Swain]

They dropped onto the decks in the night, from helicopters , heavily armed, onto unsuspecting, unarmed, pacifist aid workers, in international waters , killing many, and who were the victims? The guys dropping out of the night sky , killing aid workers , in international waters, according to Israel. Does anyone believe that? Duhhh!!
The aid workers thought they were being attacked by pirates! Really? What would possibly give them that idea?
In South Africa, the claim is that the finest climate in the world, with a huge game supply, in a crowded continent, was largely unoccupied, before the white man came.
Revisionist history makes some pretty absurd claims to justify crimes against humanity. Amazingly, some are gullible enough to keep believing them, and insulting enough to suggest we should all believe them.
The fact that they were attacking the Turks , members of NATO , should be interesting, in the coming days..

[hoytedow]

Unarmed my ass.

[troy2000]

They dropped onto the decks in the night, from helicopters , heavily armed, onto unsuspecting, unarmed, pacifist aid workers, in international waters , killing many, and who were the victims? The guys dropping out of the night sky , killing aid workers , in international waters, according to Israel. Does anyone believe that? Duhhh!!
The aid workers thought they were being attacked by pirates! Really? What would possibly give them that idea?
In South Africa, the claim is that the finest climate in the world, with a huge game supply, in a crowded continent, was largely unoccupied, before the white man came.
Revisionist history makes some pretty absurd claims to justify crimes against humanity. Amazingly, some are gullible enough to keep believing them, and insulting enough to suggest we should all believe them.
The fact that they were attacking the Turks , members of NATO , should be interesting, in the coming days..

What a total crock. Those people on the ships weren't 'unarmed pacifist aid workers.' They were anti-Israel activists. And they weren't singing 'Kumbayah' and 'Give Peace a Chance' when they swarmed the Israelis with knives and baseball bats; they were yelling "Khaibar, Khaibar, O Jews! The Army of Muhammad will return! Khaibar, Khaibar, O Jews! The Army of Muhammad will return!"

Khaibar was the Jewish oasis stronghold that Muhammed attacked and conquered in what is now Saudi Arabia, in the year 629 AD. Although he allowed the Jews to stay, on condition they turned over half their produce every year as tribute, Caliph Umar expelled them all a few years later anyway--and confiscated their lands, homes and businesses for Muslims.

[troy2000]

Associated Press

updated 4:24 p.m. PT, Wed., June 2, 2010

PARIS - The Turkish Islamic charity behind a flotilla of aid ships that was raided by Israeli forces on its way to Gaza had ties to terrorism networks, including a 1999 al-Qaida plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, France's former top anti-terrorism judge said Wednesday.

The Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Bruguiere, who led the French judiciary's counterterrorism unit for nearly two decades before retiring in 2007, didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37477182/ns/world_news-europe/

[Brent Swain]

There are lies , damned lies and statistics , 90% of which are made up on the spot. The Israeli propagand, and disinformation machine is well financed.
They had to be incredibly dense , incredibly arrogant , or both to have not waited for the boats to leave international waters before attacking. Duuhhh!!!
Time for Canada to cut off all aid for Israel and ban the sending of money there.

[mark775]

Brent Swain, are there no limits to the "DUMB" you expound?
I know people like to root for the underdog and our liberals love to hate jews (remember National Socialist Workers' Party?) but nobody buys your ****.
"Canadian Aid to Israel"? - There ARE no bounds!

[troy2000]

There are lies , damned lies and statistics , 90% of which are made up on the spot. The Israeli propagand, and disinformation machine is well financed.
They had to be incredibly dense , incredibly arrogant , or both to have not waited for the boats to leave international waters before attacking. Duuhhh!!!
Time for Canada to cut off all aid for Israel and ban the sending of money there.

Sure. Because the Palestinians have never massacred Olympic athletes, sent suicide bombers into hospitals, thrown old men in wheelchairs off a cruise ship, randomly fired Qassam rockets into civilian neighborhoods, thrown candy and danced in the streets after 9/11, fought running gun battles in those same streets with their political opponents after losing an election, murdered people specifically for their religion, or any of that other horrid stuff the Israelis are always doing.

Oh wait....that isn't the Israelis, is it? Oops...

[troy2000]

Brent Swain, are there no limits to the "DUMB" you expound?
I know people like to root for the underdog and our liberals love to hate jews (remember National Socialist Workers' Party?) but nobody buys your ****.
"Canadian Aid to Israel"? - There ARE no bounds!

Don't fight ******** with ********, Mark. Brent is a leftist radical, not a liberal. Calling him and Cynthia McKinney liberals is like calling Timothy McVeigh and Fred Phelps conservatives.

An overwhelming majority of American Jews - 73 percent - describe themselves as moderate or liberal; 23 percent label themselves as conservative.

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp509.htm

78 percent of American Jews voted for the Obama-Biden ticket.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/why-jews-hate-palin-15323

Do you think an overwhelming majority of Jews in this country would be liberals, if liberals loved to hate Jews?

[mark775]

You have a point. G'day, gotta go.

[mark775]

One more thing... "78 percent of American Jews voted for the Obama-Biden ticket." - Bet that doesn't happen again!

[hoytedow]

There are lies , damned lies and statistics , 90% of which are made up on the spot. The Israeli propagand, and disinformation machine is well financed.
They had to be incredibly dense , incredibly arrogant , or both to have not waited for the boats to leave international waters before attacking. Duuhhh!!!
Time for Canada to cut off all aid for Israel and ban the sending of money there.You know, Brent, it pains me to have to say every time you open your figurative pie-hole, what comes out is like the braying of a jack-ass. I am sick of your stupidity. I did not want to say it but I could not stay silent one moment longer. I could say worse but I shall not.

[Milan]

Wow! Cool down guys. As Frosty sad we don’t know much yet. As always in similar situations there is a lot of spin in the media and details are very sketchy, so we should be more careful with our conclusions.

Instead of emotional outbursts and personal insults, it would be much better if we could rationally analyze some facts.


Basic facts seems to be:

Flotilla of six vessels, (one under the US flag), bound to Gaza with 10 000 tons of cargo and, up to 700 passengers from 20 countries including at least 8 US citizens. Among them were former US ambassador, former US colonel and Pentagon official, US Navy veteran, some Israeli politicians, several members of European parliament...

Ships were boarded in international waters by the Israeli commandos who killed at least 9, possibly more and wounded tens of passengers.

Israel claims commandos were lightly armed with paintball guns, and acted in self – defense.


Numbers doesn’t seem to support Israelis claims.

Practically whole world criticized Israel action, only US didn’t.

Israel refuses international investigation – do they have something to hide?


Troy, I read your link about Turkish Aid Organizations alleged links with terrorists during the Balkan war(s) of the nineties. They were allegedly helping Bosnian Muslims, with supplies and volunteers from Islamic countries.

Well, NATO was doing the same at the time ...

If firing rockets and other various explosive projectiles at civilian neighborhoods would be criteria for terrorism, there would be many, many terrorists. Remember shock and eve?


By the way folks, reading your comments make me realize once again how big differences are between American and European politics. What Americans consider leftists positions would be on the right side of political spectrum in the most of continental EU. Our most right politicians are about as your democrats and our left politicians would be seen as communists in the US.

Even the word liberal has completely different meaning in the EU.

[Tantalus]

Politics aside for one moment - what about piracy?

[mark775]

There's difference?

[Knut Sand]

.....Those people on the ships weren't 'unarmed pacifist aid workers.' They were anti-Israel activists. And they weren't singing 'Kumbayah' and 'Give Peace a Chance' when they swarmed the Israelis with knives and baseball bats; they were yelling "Khaibar, Khaibar, O Jews! The Army of Muhammad will return! Khaibar, Khaibar, O Jews! The Army of Muhammad will return!"

Wasnt unarmed? Doesnt think of my environment right now as very crowded with weapons, but its a kitchen... several knives... several chairs.... each chair equals 4 lethal chairlegs...( :D ) uhumm I'm heavily armed here in my castle.

I'd still be an underdog in any hypothetical close contact combat with any soldier from any army.

I understand the Israelis wish to have control of the weapons in the area, considered their experience.

But:

The blokade is not "legalized" by the international comunity, in any way.
The Israelis have rejected to consider international control of cargo going in to Gaza.
The ships were in international waters, where only the "flag" have any juridiction over the ship/ crew/ cargo/ passengers. (Hey, they could even be burning Norwegian flags, I'd not like it, but I'd have no right to do anything to it (It'd be tempting to spray the deck with firewater though...)
The fact, mentioned above here, international waters, makes the boarding of the ship, with armed personnell, the first crime against international laws, in this case.
The response, of the poeple aboard can be discussed to be clearly "over the top", but as it seem; the weapons they had were mostly gathered ad hoc, in situ (can still be deadly/ dangorous, ref my own kitchen)
There are other ways to easyly stop/ slow down a ship (but still to be considered a crime, if done in international waters).
The Israelis have rejected the suggestion of an international investigation (something to hide?)
As it seem, right now... Maybe the "attack" done on Israeli soldiers in fact would be considered "self defence" in an international court...
That also add kidnapping to the list.
Piracy (if the cargo/ passengers/ crew doesnt end up in the destinated port, within reasonable time).

Another fact that can be a sign of the situation; the numbers of injured/ dead
The convoy: 9 dead, a (rather large) uncertain number of injured.
The Israeli soldiers: 2 seriously wounded, 5 wounded.

So, was this an act of propaganda from the Palestinians?
Yes, definetively...

And no... Here's a list of things not permitted (and permitted) to take in to the Gaza area:
http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

Try to rebuild that area with what the Israelis accept/ allow....

But my general attitude is such; I' sceptic to any man/ woman directing a intended weapon against any other being with the intention to inflict any harm to that other person... No matter colour, race, religion, income...


Another thing:
San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflic
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
So.. "reasonable grounds".... the ships were inspected by Turkish representatives prior to departure checking for weapons. No weapons found, prior to departure. That also makes the boarding of the ships in international waters a crude statement of untrust towards one of the few (muslim) countries that Israels have any regular/ diplomatic contact with.....

[troy2000]

Might as well throw this into the mix:

Associated Press

JERUSALEM - The wife of a U.S. citizen seriously injured in a Palestinian suicide bombing seven years ago says he has died as a result of complications from his wounds.

Julie Averbach says her husband, 44-year-old New Jersey native Steve Averbach, died in his sleep on Thursday.

A Hamas suicide bomber killed seven people and wounded 20 when he detonated his explosives on a packed commuter bus in Jerusalem in May 2003, at the height of the Palestinian intifada uprising.

Averbach was hit by shrapnel and paralyzed from the neck down.

Julie Averbach said on Friday that her husband was periodically hospitalized in the years since the attack and that his condition had worsened in recent months.

[Knut Sand]

A Hamas suicide bomber killed seven people and wounded 20 when he detonated his explosives on a packed commuter bus in Jerusalem in May 2003, at the height of the Palestinian intifada uprising.

And that bus was in international waters?
My opinion is still; there's still blood on some hands on both sides of the fence....

And both sides use the weapons available... I do not think that a suicide mission is the preferred action, if there were any other means available that could measure up to the intended/ wanted effect.

[hoytedow]

There are lies , damned lies and statistics , 90% of which are made up on the spot. The Israeli propagand, and disinformation machine is well financed.
They had to be incredibly dense , incredibly arrogant , or both to have not waited for the boats to leave international waters before attacking. Duuhhh!!!
Time for Canada to cut off all aid for Israel and ban the sending of money there.Genesis 12:3 King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/genesis/12.htm)
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

[troy2000]

And that bus was in international waters?
My opinion is still; there's still blood on some hands on both sides of the fence....

And both sides use the weapons available... I do not think that a suicide mission is the preferred action, if there were any other means available that could measure up to the intended/ wanted effect.

Did I say it was in international waters? It's a shining example of why the Israelis want to keep the border sealed, and not let anything through that they haven't personally inspected for weapons and explosives. If you were an Israeli, would you trust a Turk to do that for you?

One problem is that the Palestinians actually prefer soft targets: they'd rather hit civilians, women and children than military personnel and installation. How often do their suicide bombers target military personnel and bases, instead of going onto buses or into restaurants?

Whether that's dishonorable or not depends on your point of view, I suppose. But it's definitely counterproductive; all it does is make the Israelis hate them as much as they hate the Israelis.

As a veteran myself, I can tell you this: I don't hold a grudge against the people who were shooting at me. It was war, and the war is over now. But if they had set out to blow up my parents, my wife, my children and my neighbors, I would give them no forgiveness and show them no mercy.

[hoytedow]

Did I say it was in international waters? It's a shining example of why the Israelis want to keep the border sealed, and not let anything through that they haven't personally inspected for weapons and explosives. If you were an Israeli, would you trust a Turk to do that for you?

One problem is that the Palestinians actually prefer soft targets: they'd rather hit civilians, women and children than military personnel and installation. How often do their suicide bombers target military personnel and bases, instead of going onto buses or into restaurants?

Whether that's dishonorable or not depends on your point of view, I suppose. But it's definitely counterproductive; all it does is make the Israelis hate them as much as they hate the Israelis.

As a veteran myself, I can tell you this: I don't hold a grudge against the people who were shooting at me. It was war, and the war is over now. But if they had set out to blow up my parents, my wife, my children and my neighbors, I would give them no forgiveness and show them no mercy....or kindergartens or gradeschools?

[hoytedow]

Keep it flying.

[troy2000]

...or kindergartens or gradeschools?

Or you could be like the Taliban, I suppose. One of their preferred targets is girl's schools. Don't get me going on what I think of people who would rather murder girls than let them learn to read and write.

[hoytedow]

Or you could be like the Taliban, I suppose. One of their preferred targets is girl's schools. Don't get me going on what I think of people who would rather murder girls than let them learn to read and write.It is refreshing to find a topic on which we thoroughly agree. Do you remember the school in Saudi Arabia which, when it caught on fire, the police would not allow the girls out without the headscarves but instead forced them back into the burning building?

[watchkeeper]

Back to pirates, water etc

The following report illustrates a fair and reasonable even sensible solution to the pirate problem i.e. harsh remedies for harsh situations.

-The tanker was freed from the pirate's grasp in a dawn operation which was hailed as exemplary by Russian defence experts and officials. A pleased as punch, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said the raid was "sharp, professional and quick" and ordered medals for all those involved in the rescue.

The marines captured ten pirates during their assault, and these were then reportedly taken and held on the Russian destroyer “Marshal Shaposhnikov”. However almost as suddenly as they were captured they were unexpectedly released, with Russian officials saying there was insufficient legal basis to keep them in detention and that they would be too expensive to feed.

So if you can’t keep them, what can you do? It seems the Russian navy decided to simply send the pirates whence they came, and put them in a boat some 300 nautical miles offshore, removing all weaponry and navigational equipment from the vessel.

In the past some navies have been criticised for taking soft options and have resorted to delivering the little blighters back into their home waters. A response which doesn’t perhaps tally with the rather “stricter” stance expected from Russian armed forces.

Now all this would perhaps have been fine had the Somalis made it to safety...alas it would seem that they did not. Shortly after, a high-ranking source was quoted by Russia's official news agencies “According to the latest information, the pirates who seized the Moscow University oil tanker failed to reach the shore. Evidently, they have all died”. The source said that radio signals from the boat stopped just one hour after it had been set free by the Russian navy. No details were given over the manner in which they could have lost their lives....

Having experienced the mongrels first hands it works for me.

Cheers

[troy2000]

Something I saw passing reference to in a news story a while back: it claimed hundreds of would-be pirates die every year anyway, heading out to sea improperly equipped in boats that weren't designed for such use.

I suppose some of them are paying the price for a get-rich-quick mentality. But others are pushing off in those boats mostly because there's little or nothing for them on shore. Piracy seems to be the only game in town.

That doesn't mean we should let them keep taking ships. But to my mind, it isn't going to stop until there's some other way for them to make a living, which requires some sort of stability and a functioning government in Somalia. I don't know whether that can be imposed from the outside, though. Like a lot of people, the Somalis seem to unite against outsiders even if it isn't in their best interest.

Maybe the solution is to pick out the warlord who seems to have the best chances, and discreetly give him the money and arms he needs to unify the country the hard way. Yes, I know: if he's a warlord, by definition he isn't going to be a nice guy. But a warlord would have to go some to do the country more harm than anarchy is doing to it right now.

edit: and of course, it would be helpful if that warlord weren't a fundamental Muslim fanatic.....which complicates the problem of who to back.

[Brent Swain]

Would you consider the mother who had an Israeli point a loaded gun at the head of her one year old, and threaten to shoot, to force the skipper to obey him, a "Hard " target? Were mother and son , both "Hard targets"?
Would you you consider those unarmed people, with plastic handcuffs on, face down on the floor being tortured "Hard " targets?
They boarded an unarmed shipload of aid workers and fired randomly in the crowd, then walked across the bodies still squirming in blood to kill more. Then they sat back and watched them bleed to death. Israel has no shortage of civilian deaths due to their having targeted civilians.
Israel should have never been created. The world would be a far more peaceful place without it.

[mark775]

Brent Swain, you are the dumbest MF'er I have ever had the displeasure of being exposed to. EVERYTHING you say reinforces that but this is far beyond the pale.

[troy2000]

Would you consider the mother who had an Israeli point a loaded gun at the head of her one year old, and threaten to shoot, to force the skipper to obey him, a "Hard " target? Were mother and son , both "Hard targets"?
Would you you consider those unarmed people, with plastic handcuffs on, face down on the floor being tortured "Hard " targets?
They boarded an unarmed shipload of aid workers and fired randomly in the crowd, then walked across the bodies still squirming in blood to kill more. Then they sat back and watched them bleed to death. Israel has no shortage of civilian deaths due to their having targeted civilians.
Israel should have never been created. The world would be a far more peaceful place without it.
I don't know whether you're a rabid anti-Jewish fanatic, or just a brainwashed idiot. But that is hysterical claptrap, not even supported by uninvolved witnesses on the ship. And the fact that you're swallowing it hook, line and sinker doesn't speak well for your judgment.

I suppose you're going to claim these videos of 'unarmed aid workers' swarming the Israelis as they landed were shot on a back lot somewhere?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9MD5AEOihE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s87avGLwuM

Note that the second one has footage shot by someone on board. It clearly shows people attacking the Israelis as they rappelled aboard--rather than the Israelis landing, attacking a peaceful crowd, then sitting back and watching them bleed to death.

It is my opinion that had Israel never been created, the people in the area would be killing each other instead--as they've done for centuries, and are still doing in between attacks on Israel.

[brian eiland]

Sure. Because the Palestinians have never massacred Olympic athletes, sent suicide bombers into hospitals, thrown old men in wheelchairs off a cruise ship, randomly fired Qassam rockets into civilian neighborhoods, thrown candy and danced in the streets after 9/11, fought running gun battles in those same streets with their political opponents after losing an election, murdered people specifically for their religion, or any of that other horrid stuff the Israelis are always doing.

Oh wait....that isn't the Israelis, is it? Oops...
They did drop cluster bombs on Lebanon ...against all international laws. And these things KILL CHILDREN who think the unexploded ones look like toys!!

What about that US Navy ship they sank....killing how many American seamen

These Israelis are NOT angels, and I've truly had enough kicks in my face as an AMERICAN, to tell them the AMERICAN tax payer funded foreign aid should be eliminated until they truly sit down to the table and negotiate a TWO-sided solution..

Lets eliminate all this never ending pre-condition crap and get on with substitutive talks between two parties that have real differences.

As an American tax payer I am damn tired of paying to build a wall between two people when it took years for us to get another country to tear down a wall. And we are paying for this...they didn't pass around a collection plate over there for this multi-billion dollar wall.

FED UP:!: Cut off the foreign aid until something gets started. I'll bet they understand that :!: :!:

[dskira]

As an American tax payer I am damn tired of paying to build a wall between two people when it took years for us to get another country to tear down a wall!:

I think you get a good point.

Brent
Israel should have never been created. The world would be a far more peaceful place without it.
It is the view of an old fart who watch to much TV, with too much beer.
Your antisemite and anti Israely rambling is "deja vu" and quite boring.
Stay with Origami boat, you are more entertaining but always wrong.
Is that not funny :D
Spending a life to be wrong, and posting it :P


Daniel

[hoytedow]

Something I saw passing reference to in a news story a while back: it claimed hundreds of would-be pirates die every year anyway, heading out to sea improperly equipped in boats that weren't designed for such use.

I suppose some of them are paying the price for a get-rich-quick mentality. But others are pushing off in those boats mostly because there's little or nothing for them on shore. Piracy seems to be the only game in town.

That doesn't mean we should let them keep taking ships. But to my mind, it isn't going to stop until there's some other way for them to make a living, which requires some sort of stability and a functioning government in Somalia. I don't know whether that can be imposed from the outside, though. Like a lot of people, the Somalis seem to unite against outsiders even if it isn't in their best interest.

Maybe the solution is to pick out the warlord who seems to have the best chances, and discreetly give him the money and arms he needs to unify the country the hard way. Yes, I know: if he's a warlord, by definition he isn't going to be a nice guy. But a warlord would have to go some to do the country more harm than anarchy is doing to it right now.

edit: and of course, it would be helpful if that warlord weren't a fundamental Muslim fanatic.....which complicates the problem of who to back.They could always sell sand traps to golf courses.:D

[hoytedow]

Would you consider the mother who had an Israeli point a loaded gun at the head of her one year old, and threaten to shoot, to force the skipper to obey him, a "Hard " target? Were mother and son , both "Hard targets"?
Would you you consider those unarmed people, with plastic handcuffs on, face down on the floor being tortured "Hard " targets?
They boarded an unarmed shipload of aid workers and fired randomly in the crowd, then walked across the bodies still squirming in blood to kill more. Then they sat back and watched them bleed to death. Israel has no shortage of civilian deaths due to their having targeted civilians.
Israel should have never been created. The world would be a far more peaceful place without it.You are so full of B.S. you must stink. You are just another Jew-hater.

[hoytedow]

I think you get a good point.

Brent

It is the view of an old fart who watch to much TV, with too much beer.
Your antisemite and anti Israely rambling is "deja vu" and quite boring.
Stay with Origami boat, you are more entertaining but always wrong.
Is that not funny :D
Spending a life to be wrong, and posting it :P


DanielB.S. isn't totally useless. He can always be pointed to as a bad example.

[troy2000]

They did drop cluster bombs on Lebanon ...against all international laws. And these things KILL CHILDREN who think the unexploded ones look like toys!!

What about that US Navy ship they sank....killing how many American seamen

These Israelis are NOT angels, and I've truly had enough kicks in my face as an AMERICAN, to tell them the AMERICAN tax payer funded foreign aid should be eliminated until they truly sit down to the table and negotiate a TWO-sided solution..

Lets eliminate all this never ending pre-condition crap and get on with substitutive talks between two parties that have real differences.

As an American tax payer I am damn tired of paying to build a wall between two people when it took years for us to get another country to tear down a wall. And we are paying for this...they didn't pass around a collection plate over there for this multi-billion dollar wall.

FED UP:!: Cut off the foreign aid until something gets started. I'll bet they understand that :!: :!:

I'm not claiming the Israelis are any angels; men who go to war seldom grow wings and haloes--at least in this world. But it seems to me that as a general rule civilians are collateral damage when Israel attacks, rather than the target. The Palestinians, on the other hand, make a habit of deliberately killing unarmed civilians, including women and children.

People can talk to me until they're blue in the face about what monsters the Israelis are. I still won't agree that the Palestinian habit of sending suicide bombers into restaurants and crowded buses is a legitimate military tactic. It's terrorism pure and simple.

[hoytedow]

Two Arabs are sitting in a Gaza Strip bar chatting over a pint of fermented goats milk. One pulls his wallet out and starts flipping through pictures and they start reminiscing.

"This is my oldest son, he is a martyr."

"You must be so proud," says the other.

"This is my second son. He is a martyr also."

"A fine looking young man," replies his friend.

After a pause and a deep sigh, the second Arab says wistfully, "They blow up so fast, dont they?"

The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea, and before we did that we might as well fight.
Golda Meir

We don't thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient.
Golda Meir

[idpnd]

I know people like to root for the underdog and our liberals love to hate jews

The Israelis are NOT the underdog in a conflict where their (US provided) war machine is once again facing dangerous opposition, in Gaza that's mostly kids armed with rocks and pathetic home made rockets.

There is no denying - the cowardly IDF has not encountered another army in decades, and on that boat they demonstrated what they do best: Using assault rifles to massacre unarmed civilians

[murdomack]

There is no denying - the cowardly IDF has not encountered another army in decades,

Not quite true, they were well thrashed when they invaded Lebanon a couple of years ago, at least that is how it looked on Sky News.

[idpnd]

Not quite true, they were well thrashed when they invaded Lebanon a couple of years ago, at least that is how it looked on Sky News.

Hezbollah - paramilitary force, not an army and certainly not one equipped with modern weapons!

[brian eiland]

They did drop cluster bombs on Lebanon ...against all international laws. And these things KILL CHILDREN who think the unexploded ones look like toys!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/interactives/lebcbomb/

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.

The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.

Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.

According to the commander, in order to compensate for the inaccuracy of the rockets and the inability to strike individual targets precisely, units would "flood" the battlefield with munitions, accounting for the littered and explosive landscape of post-war Lebanon."


Israel also used phosphorous shells (white phosphorous) on civilians in Gaza. Have you ever seen what this weapon does to human body...and it doesn't even have to be in direct contact.

.excessive injury and unnecessary suffering
It has come to light that IDF soldiers fired phosphorous rounds in order to cause fires in Lebanon. An artillery commander has admitted to seeing trucks loaded with phosphorous rounds on their way to artillery crews in the north of Israel.

A direct hit from a phosphorous shell typically causes severe burns and a slow, painful death.

International law forbids the use of weapons that cause "excessive injury and unnecessary suffering", and many experts are of the opinion that phosphorous rounds fall directly in that category.

The International Red Cross has determined that international law forbids the use of phosphorous and other types of flammable rounds against personnel, both civilian and military.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbqieZwjhZA



Yet every time the UN seeks to issue a condemnation for such acts, its the USA vote that veto's it....wonder why the USA is seen as such a biased agent in this situation:rolleyes: We really need to get the world of nations involved in working towards a peace solution. This one-sided actions on our part is being utilized by all those Muslim schools to preach the HATE against the USA. Thousands upon thousands of young kids in this world are growing up to hate the USA. If even a minuit percentage of those turn into violate terrorist we are in for a long trip of defending ourselves. Let us become more equal brokers of peace, please

[troy2000]

The Israelis are NOT the underdog in a conflict where their (US provided) war machine is once again facing dangerous opposition, in Gaza that's mostly kids armed with rocks and pathetic home made rockets.

There is no denying - the cowardly IDF has not encountered another army in decades, and on that boat they demonstrated what they do best: Using assault rifles to massacre unarmed civilians

You're passing on a deliberate lie. They had no assault rifles. They had paintball guns and pistols, because they were expecting to do crowd control--not fight for their lives.

You might sneer at homemade rockets, but the Palestinians are firing them at Israeli towns in an attempt to kill women and children. And I've said it before and I'll say it again: only a bunch of effing idiots provoke armed soldiers by throwing rocks at them.

You know, you're entitled not to like Jews or Israelis. That doesn't mean you should be posting complete BS.

[troy2000]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/interactives/lebcbomb/

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.

The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.

Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.

According to the commander, in order to compensate for the inaccuracy of the rockets and the inability to strike individual targets precisely, units would "flood" the battlefield with munitions, accounting for the littered and explosive landscape of post-war Lebanon."


Israel also used phosphorous shells (white phosphorous) on civilians in Gaza. Have you ever seen what this weapon does to human body...and it doesn't even have to be in direct contact.

.excessive injury and unnecessary suffering
It has come to light that IDF soldiers fired phosphorous rounds in order to cause fires in Lebanon. An artillery commander has admitted to seeing trucks loaded with phosphorous rounds on their way to artillery crews in the north of Israel.

A direct hit from a phosphorous shell typically causes severe burns and a slow, painful death.

International law forbids the use of weapons that cause "excessive injury and unnecessary suffering", and many experts are of the opinion that phosphorous rounds fall directly in that category.

The International Red Cross has determined that international law forbids the use of phosphorous and other types of flammable rounds against personnel, both civilian and military.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbqieZwjhZA



Yet every time the UN seeks to issue a condemnation for such acts, its the USA vote that veto's it....wonder why the USA is seen as such a biased agent in this situation:rolleyes: We really need to get the world of nations involved in working towards a peace solution. This one-sided actions on our part is being utilized by all those Muslim schools to preach the HATE against the USA. Thousands upon thousands of young kids in this world are growing up to hate the USA. If even a minuit percentage of those turn into violate terrorist we are in for a long trip of defending ourselves. Let us become more equal brokers of peace, please

When's the last time the UN voted to condemn sending suicide bombers and rockets across the border to target civilians? Seems to me it isn't just the US that is one-sided....

[mark775]

God, I had no idea that there were so many that hate Israel. Makes me sick...

[TeddyDiver]

Not so sure about the hate.. might be only a point of view, considering the fact that it's disc(g?)ussed in this particular thread ;)

[dskira]

God, I had no idea that there were so many that hate Israel. Makes me sick...

Yes me to.
It will be nice to have some restrain, and don't judge an entire population just by reading or watching the news. Which they do, and after being completely submerged, between this typical TV sequance

Victoria Secret,
The war in Afghanistan,
The baby shampoo,
The genocide in Africa,
The best tooth brush,
The devastation of the earthquake in Chine,
The most efficient shaving cream,

After they get all this garbage on there head, they declare:
I am a specialist, and Israel should not exist.
WHAT A ***** THEY ARE.
Just a waste of humanity, a trailer trash who bang the wife Saturday night after been full of cheap beer.
SHAME ON YOU FOR WRITING THIS AND THINKING IT
I have no sympathy for fecal smelly brain.

Daniel

[dskira]

Israel can and should exist, the Palestinian can and should exist, they are in fact historically brother.
What is wrong with these peoples?
The land is large enough for all of them.
Why they can find a common language, embrace each other as a brother, as the people of Israel and the Palestinian want. Not their government, the people.
Go over there, it is an eye opening. Both are beautiful people.
In fact it is strange, but in general people want peace, governments want war.
Democracy some one?
God help us
Daniel

[hoytedow]

Hezbollah - paramilitary force, not an army and certainly not one equipped with modern weapons!Certainly a terroristic force which kills and maims innocent women and children has no right to claim victimhood.

[hoytedow]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/interactives/lebcbomb/

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.

The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.

Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.

According to the commander, in order to compensate for the inaccuracy of the rockets and the inability to strike individual targets precisely, units would "flood" the battlefield with munitions, accounting for the littered and explosive landscape of post-war Lebanon."


Israel also used phosphorous shells (white phosphorous) on civilians in Gaza. Have you ever seen what this weapon does to human body...and it doesn't even have to be in direct contact.

.excessive injury and unnecessary suffering
It has come to light that IDF soldiers fired phosphorous rounds in order to cause fires in Lebanon. An artillery commander has admitted to seeing trucks loaded with phosphorous rounds on their way to artillery crews in the north of Israel.

A direct hit from a phosphorous shell typically causes severe burns and a slow, painful death.

International law forbids the use of weapons that cause "excessive injury and unnecessary suffering", and many experts are of the opinion that phosphorous rounds fall directly in that category.
Sawing the head off the victim with a dull knife certainly doesn't qualify because a Muslim is doing it. You can't be held guilty unless you are a Jew or a Christian, right?

The International Red Cross has determined that international law forbids the use of phosphorous and other types of flammable rounds against personnel, both civilian and military.
International Red Cross sent funds to known terroristic organizations. Why should we believe them?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbqieZwjhZA



Yet every time the UN seeks to issue a condemnation for such acts, its the USA vote that veto's it....wonder why the USA is seen as such a biased agent in this situation:rolleyes: We really need to get the world of nations involved in working towards a peace solution. This one-sided actions on our part is being utilized by all those Muslim schools to preach the HATE against the USA. Thousands upon thousands of young kids in this world are growing up to hate the USA. If even a minuit percentage of those turn into violate terrorist we are in for a long trip of defending ourselves. Let us become more equal brokers of peace, please
May the day come soon when the UN leaves the United States, never to return.Teach the enemy that war is Hell until they abandon their murderous campaign.

[Milan]

… As a veteran myself, … I don't hold a grudge against the people who were shooting at me. It was war, and the war is over now… if they had set out to blow up my parents, my wife, my children and my neighbors …

Troy, I see in your profile that you are a Vietnam veteran.

I don’t want to hurt your feelings, or insult you, but I must say it sounds rather strange how you have put it.

It wasn’t Vietnamese who were blowing up American neighborhoods and civilians. It was other way around. US armed forces were blowing up Vietnamese neighborhoods, (and Laos and Cambodia), millions of them, for years.

As a matter of fact, 35 years after ending of the war, it is still going on in a way - Laos, the most heavily bombed country in history, have to this day on average three hundred new casualties each year from leftover, unexploded US ordnance. Third of the victims are children.

… if they had set out to blow up my parents, my wife, my children and my neighbors, I would give them no forgiveness and show them no mercy.

Yes, I believe you wouldn’t. People do tend to want revenge in such tragic circumstances. Maybe you wouldn’t even show mercy not just to them but to their loved ones as well.

Imagine for a moment, that armed forces of other nation killed your family, friends and neighbors. You lost everything what you cared for. You survived, barely, but you life is one big misery. You are very poor, each day is fighting for a bare survival. You have no future. You are pushed around and humiliated daily by the people of the same nation that killed your loved ones.

After some time, you wake up one morning and decide that you had enough. You have nothing more to live for. But, there is one, only thing that you still want – revenge. Problem is, people that killed your loved ones are unreachable. They are very well protected behind high, thick walls and armed guards, or they may be anonymous. It was some guy somewhere, miles away, moving a joystick that guided missile that wiped out your whole world in the fraction of second. So, you can’t reach him. But there are others that belong to his “tribe” that you can reach. So, you take some of them with you on your way out.

Isn’t that big part of the Israeli – Palestinian story? On one side modern, high – teach army inflicting huge collateral damage figures on the weak, desperate people that are answering with desperate acts.

… Taliban … people who would rather murder girls than let them learn to read and write.

How strange we didn’t hear anything about these rather unfortunate acts of our former friends, way back when they shoot Russians? We called them freedom fighters then. They were our best pals, bringing freedom to Afghanistan and the world.

Twenty, some odd years later, same people, doing same things. We used to call them freedom fighters, now we call them terrorists. The only thing that changed is that they shoot at us now.

By the way, nobody told us that Afghanis who were friends of Russians were doing their best to get as much of the girls in the schools as possible. Maybe we choose wrong side? End are we doing better than Russians? After so many wedding parties we blowed up?

… that as a general rule civilians are collateral damage when Israel attacks, rather than the target. The Palestinians, on the other hand, make a habit of deliberately killing unarmed civilians, including women and children….

Yes, difference between collateral damage and terrorism. Collateral damage is when “we” kill “their” civilians. Terrorism is when “they” kill "ours", civilians, or even solders that are occupying their country.

Do you think that those on the receiving end see any difference between the two? Terrorism, poor man’s Air Force?

… The Egyptians could run to Egypt, the Syrians into Syria. The only place we could run was into the sea …

Yes, they should keep that fact in mind. Present politics is not very wise in the long term. They now depend totally on the US support. No baddy knows what the future may bring. They should find some compromise with neighbors for their own sake.

… God, I had no idea that there were so many that hate Israel. Makes me sick...

I don’t hate any baddy. I have nothing against Jews, Israel or any other nation. We are all people on this small planet, and we could do so much better, for all …

[hoytedow]

Troy, I see in your profile that you are a Vietnam veteran.

I don’t want to hurt your feelings, or insult you, but I must say it sounds rather strange how you have put it.

It wasn’t Vietnamese who were blowing up American neighborhoods and civilians. It was other way around. US armed forces were blowing up Vietnamese neighborhoods, (and Laos and Cambodia), millions of them, for years.

As a matter of fact, 35 years after ending of the war, it is still going on in a way - Laos, the most heavily bombed country in history, have to this day on average three hundred new casualties each year from leftover, unexploded US ordnance. Third of the victims are children.



Yes, I believe you wouldn’t. People do tend to want revenge in such tragic circumstances. Maybe you wouldn’t even show mercy not just to them but to their loved ones as well.

Imagine for a moment, that armed forces of other nation killed your family, friends and neighbors. You lost everything what you cared for. You survived, barely, but you life is one big misery. You are very poor, each day is fighting for a bare survival. You have no future. You are pushed around and humiliated daily by the people of the same nation that killed your loved ones.

After some time, you wake up one morning and decide that you had enough. You have nothing more to live for. But, there is one, only thing that you still want – revenge. Problem is, people that killed your loved ones are unreachable. They are very well protected behind high, thick walls and armed guards, or they may be anonymous. It was some guy somewhere, miles away, moving a joystick that guided missile that wiped out your whole world in the fraction of second. So, you can’t reach him. But there are others that belong to his “tribe” that you can reach. So, you take some of them with you on your way out.

Isn’t that big part of the Israeli – Palestinian story? On one side modern, high – teach army inflicting huge collateral damage figures on the weak, desperate people that are answering with desperate acts.



How strange we didn’t hear anything about these rather unfortunate acts of our former friends, way back when they shoot Russians? We called them freedom fighters then. They were our best pals, bringing freedom to Afghanistan and the world.

Twenty, some odd years later, same people, doing same things. We used to call them freedom fighters, now we call them terrorists. The only thing that changed is that they shoot at us now.

By the way, nobody told us that Afghanis who were friends of Russians were doing their best to get as much of the girls in the schools as possible. Maybe we choose wrong side? End are we doing better than Russians? After so many wedding parties we blowed up?



Yes, difference between collateral damage and terrorism. Collateral damage is when “we” kill “their” civilians. Terrorism is when “they” kill "ours", civilians, or even solders that are occupying their country.

Do you think that those on the receiving end see any difference between the two? Terrorism, poor man’s Air Force?



Yes, they should keep that fact in mind. Present politics is not very wise in the long term. They now depend totally on the US support. No baddy knows what the future may bring. They should find some compromise with neighbors for their own sake.



I don’t hate any baddy. I have nothing against Jews, Israel or any other nation. We are all people on this small planet, and we could do so much better, for all …If you post a quote get it right. That which you attribute to me was said by Golda Meir.

[hoytedow]

... a long time ago.

[Milan]

If you post a quote get it right. That which you attribute to me was said by Golda Meir.

Yes, indeed. I apologize.

[troy2000]

Troy, I see in your profile that you are a Vietnam veteran.

I don’t want to hurt your feelings, or insult you, but I must say it sounds rather strange how you have put it.

It wasn’t Vietnamese who were blowing up American neighborhoods and civilians. It was other way around. US armed forces were blowing up Vietnamese neighborhoods, (and Laos and Cambodia), millions of them, for years.

As a matter of fact, 35 years after ending of the war, it is still going on in a way - Laos, the most heavily bombed country in history, have to this day on average three hundred new casualties each year from leftover, unexploded US ordnance. Third of the victims are children.



Yes, I believe you wouldn’t. People do tend to want revenge in such tragic circumstances. Maybe you wouldn’t even show mercy not just to them but to their loved ones as well.

Imagine for a moment, that armed forces of other nation killed your family, friends and neighbors. You lost everything what you cared for. You survived, barely, but you life is one big misery. You are very poor, each day is fighting for a bare survival. You have no future. You are pushed around and humiliated daily by the people of the same nation that killed your loved ones.

After some time, you wake up one morning and decide that you had enough. You have nothing more to live for. But, there is one, only thing that you still want – revenge. Problem is, people that killed your loved ones are unreachable. They are very well protected behind high, thick walls and armed guards, or they may be anonymous. It was some guy somewhere, miles away, moving a joystick that guided missile that wiped out your whole world in the fraction of second. So, you can’t reach him. But there are others that belong to his “tribe” that you can reach. So, you take some of them with you on your way out.

Isn’t that big part of the Israeli – Palestinian story? On one side modern, high – teach army inflicting huge collateral damage figures on the weak, desperate people that are answering with desperate acts.



How strange we didn’t hear anything about these rather unfortunate acts of our former friends, way back when they shoot Russians? We called them freedom fighters then. They were our best pals, bringing freedom to Afghanistan and the world.

Twenty, some odd years later, same people, doing same things. We used to call them freedom fighters, now we call them terrorists. The only thing that changed is that they shoot at us now.

By the way, nobody told us that Afghanis who were friends of Russians were doing their best to get as much of the girls in the schools as possible. Maybe we choose wrong side? End are we doing better than Russians? After so many wedding parties we blowed up?



Yes, difference between collateral damage and terrorism. Collateral damage is when “we” kill “their” civilians. Terrorism is when “they” kill "ours", civilians, or even solders that are occupying their country.

Do you think that those on the receiving end see any difference between the two? Terrorism, poor man’s Air Force?



Yes, they should keep that fact in mind. Present politics is not very wise in the long term. They now depend totally on the US support. No baddy knows what the future may bring. They should find some compromise with neighbors for their own sake.



I don’t hate any baddy. I have nothing against Jews, Israel or any other nation. We are all people on this small planet, and we could do so much better, for all …

It would take more than the likes of you to hurt my feelings; it's been tried by experts. But I'll say this, and you can believe it or kiss my ass:

I wasn't in charge of deciding whether or not to go to war in Vietnam, and no one asked me what the strategy should be.

But I never attacked a civilian, or killed an unarmed man.

I never ordered an attack on civilians, or ordered unarmed men killed.

I never stood by and allowed someone else to attack civilians, or kill unarmed men.

However, I do seem to remember some Viet Cong and NVA who were pretty enthusiastic about killing the families of those who opposed them. And it went the other way, too; ARVN forces could and did wipe out villages they suspected of aiding the North.

Again, men at war don't generally turn into angels; war is a brutal business. But I'd say the average American soldier was less interested in killing noncombatant Vietnamese than the Vietnamese themselves were--on both sides.

edit: whether you admit it or not, there is a difference between collateral damage, and deliberately targeting civilians instead of military opponents. Pretending otherwise is pretending that there's no difference between a soldier and a murderer, and that a soldier can have no code of conduct and no honor. And if in fact that's what you believe, the world is probably lucky you were never in uniform.

Also: despite your efforts as an apologist for murderers, I don't believe having my wife and children killed would justify me deliberately killing someone else's women and children. I'm beyond the tribal stage, and I don't believe in 'avenging' innocents by killing more innocents.

[mark775]

You have a cooler head than I, Troy.

[troy2000]

You have a cooler head than I, Troy.

I notice he's from the Netherlands. How seriously am I supposed to take his opinion about things military? After all, It was a force of UN "peacekeepers" from his country who stood by at Srebrenica, and allowed the Serbs to slaughter 8,000 Bosnian men and boys in 1995.

I wonder how peacefully they slept during the following nights, after refusing to do their duty as soldiers and protectors? Did they even realize they had committed a greater sin by doing nothing, than they could have done by doing anything else at all?

[Knut Sand]

Turks were killed, rightfully or not by Israeli soldiers...

Turkish peoples are supposed to be fairly "neutral" in this case, so killing another
nations unarmed citizens in international waters, seem a bit rude. The conflict the Israelis have with Lebanon should not be taken out on the citizens of other nations, period.

An investigation is needed. the Israeli attitude towards an International investigation is a bit strange. An investigation should be based on what took place at least as early as when the ships were loaded, until what happend when loads and passengers were released (or even as early as when the ships was chartered and the contacts/ contracts in that stage of this event) , I just can't see that Israeli investigators should perform a useful job on some of these areas.... A team of Israeli investigators in Turkish harbour...? Eh well...

"But Mr Netanyahu said any investigation must be conducted "responsibly and objectively" and said that he was looking into other possibilities.
His ambassador to the United States was more categorical, insisting that the idea of an international commission was unacceptable to Israel.
"Israel is a democratic nation," Michael Oren told Fox News. "Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7807412/Gaza-flotilla-William-Hague-calls-for-international-inquiry.html

[troy2000]

Turks were killed, rightfully or not by Israeli soldiers...

Turkish peoples are supposed to be fairly "neutral" in this case, so killing another
nations unarmed citizens in international waters, seem a bit rude. The conflict the Israelis have with Lebanon should not be taken out on the citizens of other nations, period.

An investigation is needed. the Israeli attitude towards an International investigation is a bit strange. An investigation should be based on what took place at least as early as when the ships were loaded, until what happend when loads and passengers were released (or even as early as when the ships was chartered and the contacts/ contracts in that stage of this event) , I just can't see that Israeli investigators should perform a useful job on some of these areas.... A team of Israeli investigators in Turkish harbour...? Eh well...

"But Mr Netanyahu said any investigation must be conducted "responsibly and objectively" and said that he was looking into other possibilities.
His ambassador to the United States was more categorical, insisting that the idea of an international commission was unacceptable to Israel.
"Israel is a democratic nation," Michael Oren told Fox News. "Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7807412/Gaza-flotilla-William-Hague-calls-for-international-inquiry.html

Look at it from Israel's viewpoint. I imagine they're more than a little tired of being judged by other nations, who don't lift a finger to stop Israelis from being killed--but deplore anything Israel does to stop it from happening. And if it's a UN investigation, I have no doubt they'll decide it's Israel's fault, no matter what happened.

I've seen the videos of those 'neutral, unarmed Turkish citizens' swarming the Israelis as they rappelled aboard. If someone attacks soldiers with knives and metal poles, there's a chance they're going to die. Sometimes, stupidity is a capital offense....

[murdomack]

Here's another view,

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19573

[troy2000]

Here's another view,

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19573
Does anyone really think the Israelis waded through that melee on the deck carrying a list of names and cabins, to hunt down and murder specific sleeping passengers in their beds?

I don't. Only a fool would believe such nonsense.

[murdomack]

Here's another viewpoint,

http://suraci.blogspot.com/2010/06/paradigm-shift.html?zx=3c28a6e709d8a1f8

There were a lot of witnesses (600 I think I read) on the ships, are they all fools?

[Milan]

Few interesting things to comment on, but no time. I’ll be very busy next couple of days, I’ll get back to you later during the week.

[troy2000]

Here's another viewpoint,

http://suraci.blogspot.com/2010/06/paradigm-shift.html?zx=3c28a6e709d8a1f8

There were a lot of witnesses (600 I think I read) on the ships, are they all fools?
Yep. That's another viewpoint, all right....:p:p:p

Why are you posting a link to a blog which pretends it's an accepted fact that the 9/11 attacks and the London subway attacks were carried out by Israel? Why would anyone with a teaspoon of common sense take it (or you) seriously?

It isn't enough just to tell me there were 600 passengers on the ships. You need to show me what those 600 passengers said that would back up such asinine claims.

[murdomack]

Yep. That's another viewpoint, all right....:p:p:p

Why are you posting a link to a blog which pretends it's an accepted fact that the 9/11 attacks and the London subway attacks were carried out by Israel? Why would anyone with a teaspoon of common sense take it (or you) seriously?

It isn't enough just to tell me there were 600 passengers on the ships. You need to show me what those 600 passengers said that would back up such asinine claims.

I posted these links to show you that others have different viewpoints to you, or to me in some cases. The previous post contained eye witness accounts from named people. I have read many such accounts in the press here.

According to Swedish author Henning Mankell, who was on board the Marmara , "the Israeli forces attacked sleeping civilians."
"We were witnesses to premeditated murders," said historian Mattias Gardell who was on the Mavi Marmara.

I don't know who set up 9/11 or the London and Madrid bombings but they all had the same Israeli security company involved at critical points before they happened. We all have our own thoughts about these events.

[idpnd]

Certainly a terroristic force which kills and maims innocent women and children has no right to claim victimhood.

Yes, exactly, the Israelis like being on and on about the holocaust, whilst gaza is resembling the warsaw ghetto more every day..

[troy2000]

I posted these links to show you that others have different viewpoints to you, or to me in some cases. The previous post contained eye witness accounts from named people. I have read many such accounts in the press here.

According to Swedish author Henning Mankell, who was on board the Marmara , "the Israeli forces attacked sleeping civilians."
"We were witnesses to premeditated murders," said historian Mattias Gardell who was on the Mavi Marmara.No, that isn't what Henning Mankell said. You're putting words in his mouth. And he was on the Swedish ship Sofia anyway, not the Mavi Marmara. He has no first-hand knowledge at all of what happened there.

Here's a rather lengthy interview, where he talks at length about what happened on his ship, which is all he was a witness to. Show me where he says anything about the Israeli forces attacking sleeping civilians:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/gaza-flotilla-attack-henning-mankell

As for Mattias Gardell, he's an official spokesman for the Ship to Gaza effort, not an objective journalist or neutral observer. Why should we believe anything he says?

I don't know who set up 9/11 or the London and Madrid bombings but they all had the same Israeli security company involved at critical points before they happened. We all have our own thoughts about these events.
Yes, we're all allowed to have our own thoughts about these events. But if you believe the Israelis are responsible for the attacks in New York, London and Madrid, you're living proof that some of us don't think at all.:rolleyes:

[murdomack]

No, that isn't what Henning Mankell said. You're putting words in his mouth. And he was on the Swedish ship Sofia anyway, not the Mavi Marmara. He has no first-hand knowledge at all of what happened there.
Here's a rather lengthy interview, where he talks at length about what happened on his ship, which is all he was a witness to. Show me where he says anything about the Israeli forces attacking sleeping civilians:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/gaza-flotilla-attack-henning-mankell
As for Mattias Gardell, he's an official spokesman for the Ship to Gaza effort, not an objective journalist or neutral observer. Why should we believe anything he says?
Yes, we're all allowed to have our own thoughts about these events. But if you believe the Israelis are responsible for the attacks in New York, London and Madrid, you're living proof that some of us don't think at all.:rolleyes:

Being abusive to me does not make your case. I've posted words attributed to Henning Mankell in the Canadian article. You quote the Guardian, which prints the stories that the governments want us to believe, yet you refuse to believe an official spokesman of the Ship to Gaza effort, a humanitarian trying to help the oppressed.
It is yourself that does not think, your mind is made up for you by the MSM.

[troy2000]

Being abusive to me does not make your case. I've posted words attributed to Henning Mankell in the Canadian article. You quote the Guardian, which prints the stories that the governments want us to believe, yet you refuse to believe an official spokesman of the Ship to Gaza effort, a humanitarian trying to help the oppressed.
It is yourself that does not think, your mind is made up for you by the MSM.
Here's a quote from the blog you linked us to:

How the world reacts to this atrocity will determine where the world goes from here. So far America, which is simply Israel by proxy, has rolled over and permitted this display of naked terror. Other countries are not so accommodating, such as Turkey, though these will probably be isolated as time goes on and pulled into line, behind the all powerful, rampant and unstoppable Israeli behemoth.

That night when a ship was attacked may well go down in history as one of the most important days in the history of mankind. I fear that a paradigm shift has just occurred under our gaze, and that we really have just stepped into the start of a New World Order, one in which, very soon, no one on this planet will be safe, wherever they are or whoever they are, from open Zionist terror.

I'm sorry. But if you're going to swallow that, you deserve to be laughed at...:p:p:p

[gruenemachine]

if u dont wanna carry weapons (because of whatever issues) a can of bear spray is better than an little girlie can of mace....this wasp size can with pistol grip has the quantity and distance to repel boarders as well sprayed into an exhaust flume is enough to make most trailing boats turn away... as a nice bonus combine with a painters respirator/mask ... another low cost and easily accessible deterrent is to carry a hand held laser... very intimidating factor at night and very visible to prospective boarders..as well can be used in other emergency situations...

A pistol to carry on the bridge (commonly referred to as the "Judge") a .410/45 6 shot revolver..good for clearing the cockpit on most sportfishes... glock 22 .40 if u prefer a semi-auto, teamed with a mossberg 12 gauge riot gun for close to short medium range and a Carbon 15 assault rifle for distance with a good hands on training and follow up practice...

There are companies such as "THE EXECUTIVE SOLUTION" out of FT LAUDERDALE that train u how to deal with this situation, firearms training, hand to hand combat and more. They train yacht crews, cruise ship personnel, and even flight attendants to be in control, think ahead, and respond quickly and properly....

[hoytedow]

Being abusive to me does not make your case. I've posted words attributed to Henning Mankell in the Canadian article. You quote the Guardian, which prints the stories that the governments want us to believe, yet you refuse to believe an official spokesman of the Ship to Gaza effort, a humanitarian trying to help the oppressed.
It is yourself that does not think, your mind is made up for you by the MSM.The master of that ship told the Jews to go back to Auschwitz.

[troy2000]

if u dont wanna carry weapons (because of whatever issues) a can of bear spray is better than an little girlie can of mace....this wasp size can with pistol grip has the quantity and distance to repel boarders as well sprayed into an exhaust flume is enough to make most trailing boats turn away... as a nice bonus combine with a painters respirator/mask ... another low cost and easily accessible deterrent is to carry a hand held laser... very intimidating factor at night and very visible to prospective boarders..as well can be used in other emergency situations...

A pistol to carry on the bridge (commonly referred to as the "Judge") a .410/45 6 shot revolver..good for clearing the cockpit on most sportfishes... glock 22 .40 if u prefer a semi-auto, teamed with a mossberg 12 gauge riot gun for close to short medium range and a Carbon 15 assault rifle for distance with a good hands on training and follow up practice...

There are companies such as "THE EXECUTIVE SOLUTION" out of FT LAUDERDALE that train u how to deal with this situation, firearms training, hand to hand combat and more. They train yacht crews, cruise ship personnel, and even flight attendants to be in control, think ahead, and respond quickly and properly....
That would be the Taurus Judge. A five-shot revolver, actually. As you say, it shoots .410 shotgun shells or .45 Long Colt rounds. It's surprisingly accurate when firing .45's, in spite of having a long cylinder to accommodate the .410 shells.

[hoytedow]

Yes, exactly, the Israelis like being on and on about the holocaust, whilst gaza is resembling the warsaw ghetto more every day..dummass

[gruenemachine]

troy2000 ===

thanks for the correction and excellent photo --- u might be able to find 410 flare and carry it as a flare gun in countries that dont allow firearms

[troy2000]

troy2000 ===

thanks for the correction and excellent photo --- u might be able to find 410 flare and carry it as a flare gun in countries that dont allow firearms

When I'm not on the internet mocking innocent peace activists, I play with guns for entertainment.;)

By the way, I wouldn't recommend shooting shotgun shells or pistol rounds in a typical flare gun, even if you have one of the adaptors made for the purpose. You'll probably be in at least as much danger as the person you're pointing it at.

[gruenemachine]

not suggesting that at all.... just saying the JUDGE is a multi-use sidearm..

[troy2000]

not suggesting that at all.... just saying the JUDGE is a multi-use sidearm..

Oops, I should have read more carefully. You were talking about using the Taurus for a flare gun. I suppose it would work fine, if you had .410 flares. I've never seen any, but then again I haven't been around flare guns that much.

I have heard entertaining stories about trying to shoot 12-gauge flares from a full-choke shotgun and getting them stuck at the choke, though....

[murdomack]

I'm sorry. But if you're going to swallow that, you deserve to be laughed at...:p:p:p

Again, you can only see, and swallow, the thoughts that the Israeli controlled MSM feed your mind. You have to listen to the weak as much as the strong, power does not quarantee truth or righteousness.

[troy2000]

Again, you can only see, and swallow, the thoughts that the Israeli controlled MSM feed your mind. You have to listen to the weak as much as the strong, power does not quarantee truth or righteousness.But I do not have to listen to the weak-minded. ;) "The all powerful, rampant and unstoppable Israeli behemoth"? Come on....

Simply being weak confers no special powers of truth or rightousness on a people or a cause. As a matter of fact, I've found the weak are at least as likely to lie as the powerful. They try to gain through subterfuge that which they're unable to wrest from their foes by strength.

[hoytedow]

Again, you can only see, and swallow, the thoughts that the Israeli controlled MSM feed your mind. You have to listen to the weak as much as the strong, power does not quarantee truth or righteousness.F'ing Jew Hater.

[Landlubber]

Do NOT try shooting 12g cartridges in a flare gun......"someone" I know did this (yep stupid but hey, such is life) and shot the front off the poor thing. Fortunately it landed on the deck so I could reweld the alloy frame back together, and all was well..........some mothers do have em.

[hoytedow]

"I am not a complete idiot....some parts are still missing!"

So THAT's where the signature comes from.:D

[Brent Swain]

The Turkish prime minister plans to be on one of the future aid ships, escorted by the Turkish navy. Turkey is a member of NATO. NATO states that an attack on one is considered an attack on all. Should get very interesting.
The screwups by the Israelis has brought in enough money for for the Palestinian cause ,to fund hundreds of such aid ships.
The Israelis are acting more like NAZIs every day.
In all fairness to the Israelis , anger management problems are understandable in a population of child abuse victims, who were genitally mutilated in early childhood, in the name of religion.
That doesn't give anyone the right to abuse his neighbours, or claim rules which apply to others, don't apply to them..

[troy2000]

The Turkish prime minister plans to be on one of the future aid ships, escorted by the Turkish navy. Turkey is a member of NATO. NATO states that an attack on one is considered an attack on all. Should get very interesting.
The screwups by the Israelis has brought in enough money for for the Palestinian cause ,to fund hundreds of such aid ships.
The Israelis are acting more like NAZIs every day.
No. The Nazis would have sunk the damn ships, and been done with them.

And if you believe the Turkish Navy is going to break an Israeli blockade and start a war, which NATO will then join, you need to stop smoking that happyweed for a while. It's affecting your judgment. Which wasn't all that reliable to begin with....:p

[hoytedow]

No. The Nazis would have sunk the damn ships, and been done with them.

And if you believe the Turkish Navy is going to break an Israeli blockade and start a war, which NATO will then join, you need to stop smoking that happyweed for a while. It's affecting your judgment. Which wasn't all that reliable to begin with....:pWell put.