New to welding Aluminum

[captain butch]

I was on earlier about MIG machines and you all warned me against buying a cheap machine. I did it anyway, a Chicargo Electric 151, 230v. I had a certified aircraft welder try to weld 3/16 stock using pure Argon sheilding gas, a total flop. He could weld with it but not very well. O.K. I'm convinced, I have a chance to buy a Lincoln 175 new for $458.00 Do you think this will answer the need for welding light weight 3/16 to 1/4 stock. My welder friend is long gone so I thought I'd seek your advice.

[Wynand N]

The gas is okay.
From experience I have found that helium gas works better with aluminuim than argonshield.
See that your machine OCV (open curcuit voltage) is on par or higher than the requirement of the CO2 welding wire manufacture spec. Also check the polarity.

It is advisable to have a push / pull gun (torch) when welding aluminium with CO2 process.

Another trick welding aluminium is to remove all oxidation on the alu where you want to weld with sandpaper or file before welding it.

From experience I have found that it is easier to push the weld rather than pulling it as an arc weld. Because of the torch nozzle size, it is easier to see where you are welding and it produce a better looking weld.
Beware of wind that may blow the gas away and causes porosity in the weld. Check the flow or regulator gauge that you have enough shielding gas on the weld.

I hope this will help you in a way my friend.

Wynand

[captain butch]

Thank's for those tips. I havn't bought the Lincoln welder yet but I will check the OCV as you suggest. I have held off on this particular welder because I am still unsure of it's ability to handle the stock I generally use.

Butch

[Thunderhead19]

Another trick welding aluminium is to remove all oxidation on the alu where you want to weld with sandpaper or file before welding it.
Wynand

Well..technically, it is impossible to remove all the oxidation on the aluminum as it replaces itself in microseconds. You can remove the closed-pore oxidation (old and foggy), and it would be replaced by an open-pore oxide layer (new and shiny).

Sorry, I learned that a month ago from a metalurgist and have been dying to share...

[8knots]

One of my Sign guy customers just bought the Lincoln your talking about getting. works fine on 1/8" but struggles with 3/16" its just not hot enough to get full penetration on the heavier stuff. you can and should bevel your heavy stuff and maybe do a multi pass if your not doing lots of 3/16" or
better.

Aluminum is tough to do cheaply...in any kind of volume that is. you can do it with the smaller machines out there just weigh the dollars to the fiddle/cuss factor.
Thats all I have.....Good luck! 8

[captain butch]

8knots; What you say about fiddle and fuss is really true. The problem I face is going from a 175 to at least a 200. The cost factor is so great that I really can't justify it. The next unit up that I looked at was well over $1000. If I were commercial I wound not hesitate but as a hobbyist I think my wife might think about murder. By the way I used to live in Alaska, are you familiar with Lime village? I lived in Sparravon about 30 miles South of Lime.

Butch

[Arrowmarine]

Just to add to thunderheads post, todays good machines have "self cleaning arcs"" meaning they remove the oxidation as you weld. How this is actually accomplished I couldnt tell ya. ( check the Miller site) But as stated, no matter how clean you get the metal, it is still oxidized. Now, what will hurt your weld is oil, dirt, the white residue that is left during oxidation, etc. etc. Be sure to clean all foriegn substances with a wire brush or solvent.

Next point, As much as I would like to tell you that there is a good dependable welding machine that will easily handle 1/4" to 3/8" aluminum for under $1000 out there, well.......... I've never used one. My home machine is a millermatic 250 w/ 30a spool gun and it would be my recommendation to the "serious" hobbyist welder. Unfortunately, thats gonna cost you $3000 or better. The miller matic 210 is a good machine, but I feel it comes up a little short on 3/8" or better aluminum. (Incidently, the 250 welds steel like a dream as well)
A wire feeder is not necessary for you. Look towards a spool gun. Buying 1 lb. spools at about 5 bucks apiece is much easier, for men like us on a budget, than spending 80 or 90 bucks for a 16 lb. spool. I have used the miller XRa feeders extensively as well as the cobramatic and I prefer them for production work. (More postive feed and less wire changes). But a properly set up spool gun will run every bit as good as any feeder. Dont believe me? Bring me your gun:-)
The miller 185 comes with its own special little gun that works with IT and IT only. At least it used to be that way. Its kind of an underpowered little unit and the gun has a lot to be desired, but for your purposes it would probably work just fine. Around $1800 new My best suggestion is find a good used miller or lincoln. The spool gun is the killer. Mine was $900 new ouch! But they are out there. My buddy picked up a miller 300 w/ spool gun for 75 bucks. Didnt work. Replaced the main fuse. Guess what? Still going strong today after about 5 yrs.
Lets see what else......... Oh, dont waste your time with co2. Run straight argon for good consistant weld quality. Helium is slightly cleaner, but more expensive and not really worth it. (You're not building the next shuttle, right?) I have never had a problem with argon and a quick conservative estimate puts me at around 25,000 hours behind the triggers of aluminum mig welders.
Now, DONT GET YOUR HOPES UP!! but I have a whole pile of older CK spool guns that I have to pick thru along with some weld control units. Hell, I'll give em to you if I find a good set. All you would need is a good used powerhead of at least 180 or 200 v. Like I said its a crap shoot, but if you are interested email me for more details.

Good luck, Joey
I

[captain butch]

Joey; thanks for the info. I have been looking for a good used unit but haven't found anything. I appreciate the offer of the spool guns but I had better hold off until I settle on something for a powerhead. If you don't mind I'll contact you when I get something.

Butch

[Alan Gluyas]

For what it is worth, I will throw in my opinion here as well. I have built several steel and wooden vessels over the last 20 years but designed and built my first alloy (28 feet) boat two years ago. I bought the heaviest single phase (240 volt) machine available, which was a 260 amp machine with push feed on a 10 foot stinger. The suppliers all looked very doubtfull that this was a big enough machine for what I wanted, but I did not want to go for a 440 volt three pahse machine, as this would limit its resale value.

The 260 amp machine was big enough, but on a couple of the heavier welds I had it on maximum settings. This was when welding 5mm plate to 10mm flat bar for the chine weld and 28mm round bar to 5mm plate on the stem.

I would not use anything apart from argon for shielding gas. Helium mixtures are better for high penetration in thicker material and being lighter are also better for overhead welding. Helium is much dearer and you use more of it when welding downhand.

It sounds as though some of the people writing in this thread are learning alloy welding as they go. I would not recommend this. A course in MIG welding will pay for itself. Because MIG is a semi-automatic process, machine settings and weld procedures are critical. If you make a bad weld in alloy, you will not know until it fails, which could be catastrophic. In a MIG welding course, you are taught what causes a wedl to be rejected for visual faults and whwn you are making welds that pass visual inspection you are taught how to cut the weld test piece up and acid etch it to see just how good it is inside. Then you break it and see how strong it is. If this worlks, you note down all the machine settings in a procedure and use then settings next time you make this kind of weld.

If you are making MIG welds without this sort of testing you are risking wasting a large quantity of expensive alloy. With MIG welding you cannot vary speed, angle, etc as you go. The settings must be right. You also cannot weld backwards. If you do not "push" the gun, you are not getting the benefit of the shielding gas where you need it.

Cleaning the alloy is essential. It should be degreased and sanded clean of all old mill scale before assembly and it should also be wire brushed with a clean stainless steel wire brush immediately before welding. The oxide on alloy melts at a much higher termperature than the metal and if you do not get rid of it it will sit in the weld in flakes and weaken the weld. With new plate material you can get away with just the wire brush but with weathered plate and all extrusions you have to sand or grind the mill scale off. If you don't, the weld will sit on the parent material like bird droppings and fall off.

Welding with a "push" feed gun was a pain at times, but with an overhead gantry to hold the wire feed unit, it was adequate for my boat (see picture). The spool gun might be OK, but if I had used one, I would have to build the boat differently, beacuse I don't think I could have got the bulkier unit into all the places I did.

Cheers and good luck.

[captain butch]

Thanks for that; I am going to take a MIG course in the next semester. The local college offers a two semester course that allows certification at the end. I only hope I can get to the point all of you gentlemen are now at. Though my goals are much more modest and my welding will be mainly in fabrication on trailers and other gear. Just a note that the Lincoln 175 turns out to be a lower end model built for the mass market and the price jumped to $617 so I bought a new Hobart Handler 180 from Airgas. They had the best prices around, about $100 bucks less than the "discount" places. I may still need a spoolgun, I'll have to wait and see.

[Arrowmarine]

I only have one thing to say to Alan:
That is really a great looking boat! Fantastic lines. Great job. Is that your own design? Do you have any more pics?
Joey

[Alan Gluyas]

Yes, I designed it specifically to give good performance between 5 and 15 knots, as I have a place on a river area where there is a lot of concern about wake damage. This boat leaves no wash at all at 5 knots, which is the regulated speed for the river/canal area, and virtually no wash up to 7 knots. It does this with a 70 HP Nissan inboard diesel. Top speed empty has been around 15 knots and she cruises very comfortably in any sea conditions at 13 to 14 knots at about 10 to 12 litres per hour consumption.

I have just towed the boat 500 miles north to a place called Shark Bay and it towed very well at 50 to 60 mph. We spent a week living on board, fishing and diving ( it is sub tropical up there ). We are very pleased with the boat. Most boats in Western Australia are designed to go 40 miles offshore and come back the same day. There are very few trailerable cruising boats available.

I based the design loosely on the US east Coast "double wedge" hull shape that seems to be seeing a resurgence in the current "lobster yacht" style.

This hull form is very fine forward which gives a very smooth ride and flat aft. It is not very efficient above 20 knots, as it causes a lot of turbulence as the water tries to follow the twist or warp in the hull. It does not go through a "hump" as it goes onto the plane, and some experts would argue that at 15 knots this boat is not planing at all, being long and skinny (28 feet by 8 feet).

It is not perfect, as the broad quarters are inclined to lift in a following sea and some active steering input is required in long seas. The mark 2 version that I am just finishing the desig for, will hopefully fix this problem. watch this space!

Cheers and thanks for compliment. I hope you like the photos, I have plenty more!

[Arrowmarine]

Thanks, It's beautiful. Seems like we see way too few really nice looking aluminum boats. Although this style is not my forte, I know what it takes in the design, developing, and construction aspects, to get a finished aluminum boat to look this nice. Great proportions. I would like to see the inside as well, if possible.

Peace, Joey

[captain butch]

Joey, while your visiting this thread, I wonder if you think the Hobard 180 will do the job as far as 3/16 to occasional 1/4 aluminum? Also will it need a spoolgun to do it?

Butch

[8knots]

Well Done Alan!
8

[Arrowmarine]

Oops, Sorry. Got off the subject:-)
I have only used the hobart handler 180 a couple of times to weld steel and it was ok. For the money its a good deal. Never used one with aluminum though. I know it's supposed to run aluminum but I'm skeptical. Not sure what kind of control you will have over wire speed. Aluminum mig is very touchy and you're constantly changing your speed depending on your application. Not saying it wont work. It's a good little machine. Just making an educated guess based on what I've seen in the past. The standard miller welding torch is supposed to be able to run aluminum wire too. But it really is hard to do. Thats wwere the spool gun comes in.

Hope It proves me wrong. Good Luck, Joey

[captain butch]

Thanks for that. I only have the word of the guy at Airgas, he says it does OK up to 3/16th but after that he doesn't know. Of course he is the salesman. I hope it works I'm commited to it. I will say I think he gave me a good price at $550.

[sparky]

You may want to look at www.wirepropellant.com for some help with your wire feed welding problems.

[captain butch]

You may want to look at www.wirepropellant.com for some help with your wire feed welding problems.

Sparky; thanks for the info., I looked at the site and it looks real interesting. Have you used the system youself? It would be interesting to see what kind of results users have had with it. I wonder if Joey has had any experience with it, he really seems to have a handle on MIG welding Aluminum.

Butch

[Arrowmarine]

Hey there,
Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for the compliment, I appreciate that.
Ok first let me say that I have NO experience with the wirepropellant system, nor do I have any aluminum welding experience with the hobart or any other 110v welding machine. Therefore my opinions are based on my experience and are mine alone.
Ok, I am a little skeptical about the WPS. Here's why. First of all, every one of the problems this thing is supposed to cure, i'd say 99% are due to improper set up and/ or poor maintenance.
1.You should never, EVER have your drive rolls so tight that the wire "rolls up around them". If you do, your problems lie elswhere, or you need a different machine. You're wire should run as lightly as possible thru the rolls so that when a gloved hand is paced at the nozzle, the wire should immediately slip. Maybe slightly tighter. I'll tell you why in a min.
2. Every liner I have ever used is teflon, still one of the slickest materials there is and is more than adequate for this application. It's also very tough. They dont say what the secret liner is made of, but for 195 bucks it's probably not too exotic.
3. I have tried wire lubricants before such as silicone,(which by the way makes a great anti spatter shield and you can weld right over it) and some other brands I dont remember and found out real quick that there is an inherent problem. If the wire is at all wet or "filmy" it picks up debris, usually in the form of aluminum oxide dust(isnt that what they make sandpaper with? Aluminum is very soft, which is the reason that you dont tighten your drive rolls more than necessary. You're wire will deform and get little grooves in it, which picks up all kinds of crap on it's own not to mention when its "wet". So put this all together and what you get is, in effect, is wire that acts more like a tip cleaner. It is no longer smooth and and friction increases. I will guarranty that more stuck tips are caused by rough wire/dirty liners than anything else.They dont say what the solution is so it may be dry by the time it gets there, I dont know. But, my point remains. Doubt me? Ok, then why dont you see the same problems with steel wire? Because they stay smoother thru the rolls? Maybe.
4. The whole "heated wire" thing I dont buy at all. If that really made a difference, then you would think that when the ambient air temp. is around 80 Deg. you're gun would work just fine. Thats not the case as I and many of my co-workers agree that tip burnbacks are more prevelent in the summertime than in the winter. Maybe you just notice them more cuz you are already sweaty and p.o'ed :-) Also, what about the material you are welding? What if its really cold? Does that make a difference? The problem lies in the arc voltage. The starting arc is much more violent(pops harder) on a 220 machine than on a three phase 480 and burnbacks are more common. Dont know about the 120. In case no one notices, aluminum melts very quickly. Hook your wire to your ground, stretch it out about 4 feet, and pull the trigger. It turns to near liquid almost instantly. What is that, 1100 degrees or something(brain fade) I have a hard time believing that heating the wire 30 or 40 deg. makes a difference.
All I can say is I use on average about15 tips per year. Thats PER YEAR! Some of my co workers go thru 10 in a day. My personal best is 9 months/ one tip. Thats nine months, five days a week, ten hours a day.(yes i keep track) But I am a fanatic about gun cleanliness. I also only use one 15' liner a year. There are lots of tricks to get this kind of life out of your consumables, but thats another thread:-)
Anyway, before anyone gets irrate with me, please look at my statement on top of this post. The wps system may work just as described. I cant say it doesnt. If it can make an unusable 110 welder usable, then I'm all for it. But if someone comes into my shop and tries to sell me one, these are the questions that I would have. If it works, put me down for several.
I dont know if you purchased a machine yet, but I still would recommend finding a good used machine. Especially if you are going to just run Aluminum wire thru the standard steel gun anyway. You will get more power and versatility. A cheap machine will only give you frustration. In a hurry.
Remember, I am not a hobbiest welder. I spend hours everyday behind a welding gun. I know what I like and I know what works for me. It may be just fine for your use. Some of the testamonials on the site show photos of welds that would not be exceptable in my business, but were obviously fine for the home builder. I am all for saving money, but when your talking aluminum MIG, you really do get what you pay for.
Hope this helps. Peace Joey

[captain butch]

Joey; I ended up buying a Hobart 180. The guy at Airgas where I bought the machine suggested to me that I by a Tweco gun and a Teflon liner and set that up for AL and change guns when I change materials, He said and I paraphrase, "The best way to weld AL is to make sure your settings are right and use a dedicated system, and you'll never have problems with feed." That seems consistent to what your saying here.
Butch

[Arrowmarine]

Cool, hope it works for you. Good machine, great warranty, Tweco's are good guns.
Let me know how it works. It will probably work just fine for your application. Also, let me know if you try a WPS system.
Happy welding

[captain butch]

Yes I hope all goes well, I really want to thank you for the attention you pay to these forum problems. It is really a lot of help to have comments from a person who is as experienced at this as you are. When you do things like this without guidence you just rattle around and it costs a great deal more in the end. I really don't know what we did before P.C.s and forum's.
Butch