Do your worst!

A most unusual design brief.

It's sometimes a matter of necessity that a vessel is designed to meet certain criteria, other than what the owner might personally prefer due to factors imposed by the environment, govt. regulations, function and form, economics and a plethora of other considerations.

This is the position I find myself in.

Seeking design suggestions for what appear to me to be mutually exclusive requirements from one boat.

Obvious answers a mothership with a shallow drafting flats fly fishing tender vessel, however finances, distances traversed nor charter license allow that "easy" option.

Such is the burden of being the "first" in any new industry, trying to work within existing often outdated rules and regulations…

Fly Fishing Charter Guiding…in Downunderland.

OK - easy you easy - Fly Fishing's been around for ages, designs in the US Florida boat building industry are well advanced, no problem - buy a boat - go to work…

If it were just so easy.

Many constraints here.

1. Boat must be towable… this restricts beam to max 2.5meters or 8ft 4 inches for local road transport laws. 2500 miles of coastline to operate over in different zones at dfferent times f year.

2. Boat must meet Dept Marine transport 2C Survey regs…meaning - in order to get to remote offshore islands where the best fly fishing opportunity/product exists it must be min 25ft long surveyed length (Stern to where bowstem meets foredeck).

3. Charter License restricts boat length to no more than 25ft surveyed length!

4. Boat must meet stability requirements - when loaded with full passenger manifest it must have more than one eighth beam in clear freeboard with all passengers on one side at same time!

5. Boat must traverse up to 30 miles seaward to reach offshore fly fishing destinations comfortably.

6. Boat must draft bare minimum to be able to negotiate shallow corals and sand flats at offshore islands.

7. Must be economical to operate fuel wise.

8. Must be capable of being comfortably operated in both temperate and sub tropical climate (dry in temperate - walk around? and cool/shade in subtropics Center console T top/Bimini?).

9. Must have elevated casting decks fore and aft and full length fly rod lockers for min 12 fly rods rigged

10. twin 4 stroke OB rig for reliability. (Max 250 KW / 330Hp combined)

11. Must be long range ~ 350nm min.

12. Must have ample space for waving fly rods back n forth, but still have ample shade for all passengers 6 +2

13 Twin Electric Lenco 85 pound thrust trim tab mounted electric trolling motors for shallow maneouvering.

14 Mini tuna lookout tower atop T Top/cabin

This is but one area it must operate!

http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/iams/images/earth/STS072/lowres/20205644.jpg

This another offshore archipellago 50nm one way, shallow piatella and staghorn coral when you get there!

http://images.jsc.nasa.gov/iams/images/earth/STS41B/lowres/10049494.jpg

An impossible design brief perhaps?

What say the learned ones?
It's got me stumped!

Cheers!

[Stephen Ditmore]

I think you've covered most things, but a few questions:

What are your speed requirements? Target cruising speed and max speed, fully loaded and lightship.

How many passengers? Bait well? How much fuel and provisions?

Are you completely sold on outboards, or are jet drives an option?

Thanks for the additional questions - was wondering what I'd forgotten to put in the list.

I'd like to go 60 knots, but economy of operation (charter business bottom line), and the coxswains qualification limit to HP of 330HP Max (250kw) dictate that probably a 22 knot cruise and maybe 28 ~ 30 max is all that will be achievable if I'm lucky?.

Survey will preclude any gas powered inboard, - deisels no problem, I'd happily consider jet, surface pulse drive - even Ahrnessons to surface piercing props..

I just figured twin OB's were sorta "convenient", as far as bolt on / off, for maintenance / replacement, and trailerability?.

I guess for shallow draft the twin OB's could even be jackplate mounted if needs be with low water pickups ala Bob's Machine Shop Florida or Cook Manufac Co, and run surface piercing props in a twin tunnel config?.

That link to the space shot of the two large bays (circa 150nm long and 20 - 40 nm wide each) means that on the days when the winds not up, if a boat could pull 60 knots say - a round trip from the resort hotel located half way up the middle penninsular to the end of the outermost island would be about 40 odd mins one way! This opens a heck of a lot of remote fishing ground in short space of time, and means for guests a mornings wade fishing can be had and still be back at resort when afternoon sea breeze pops up, by say 1pm ish for a late lunch and cold beer in air con comfort watching the bikini clad girls sunning on the beach! ;o) (tough Job but someones gotta do it!) LOL.

I just don't think I've got the budget to be able to finance a cigarette style racing hull (canyon runner) unfortunately...although I'm willing to listen to ANY options!!!

Hull material can be glass or alloy...whichever works.

Hull style can be mono, cat or tri, or cathedral - whatever will work!

I would say maybe $75 - $80K US will see out my "allowable" budget for this vessel.....maybe a tad more if I hide it from she who mistakenly thinks she wears the pants! ;o)

Would probably fish 4 pax max - usually me alone to operate sometimes a deckie tag along maybe, but would like to be surveyed for 6 pax + 2 crew - just for convenience ferrying groups of guests to island based lodge etc..

Baitwell - don't tend to use one a lot for fly fishing - but wouldn't object to having provision for one aboard - there are the occasional times when fussy tuna's etc can be tempted to a fly with a few livies over the side.

This one fell for that sorta tomfoolery at the tip of the long island on the right in the spacepic.

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=12803

Theres a lot of sailfish and marlin out there as well, but it's a long haul in a slow boat and uncomfortable punching home into southwesterly seabreeze chop, that gets short & steep in the shallow bays.

It's basically a day trip fishing boat - no need for bunks etc - just some spare clothes, tackle etc...

I believe to get thru survey it must have a head aboard, maybe an "inconsole" type?...head compartment has to have 6ft 6inch minimum ceiling height for survey regs....

Would be nice to have self draining decks of course...

Freshwater washdown would be a luxury but probably not worth the weight - better to hose off back at resort I guess.

Let me know if I havent covered anything.!

Thanks again & cheers!

[trouty]

Just to say i registered so you all know who "guest" in the post above means!

Is it acceptable to link photo's into a post?...and is this done with [ img ] [ /img ] tags...or is just the html link preferred for forum speed?

If so - this is a sort of mock up I did of an alloy Cathedral hull about 28ft long with cuddy cab removed & a centre console cut n pasted on roughly in place...

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/UserFolders/trouty/PhotoImages/Flatsssstrap.JPG

You can see I'm no boat designer...just fooling with photo programs and hulls / boats I've seen about the place to get some "conceptual thing together" to give some idea of a concept maybe.

Hope it works and doesnt chew up too much bandwidth.

Cheers!

[Jeff]

Is it acceptable to link photo's into a post?...and is this done with [ img ] [ /img ] tags...or is just the html link preferred for forum speed?Welcome to our forums!

The way you included the image is just fine.

I also added a section to the FAQ at http://boatdesign.net/forums/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=3#Images (which basically states that you are welcome to use IMG tags as long as you are relatively confident that the image will remain on the other server, but if you think the image might not be there in the future, we prefer that you actually attach the image to your post so that people later on won't be confronted with broken images.)

Again I'm glad you joined our forums. Interesting Project!

[trouty]

Thanks indeed for the welcome, I've lurked here abouts once or twice, just didn't know if it was the "done thing" to ask advice about a boat design...

I'll leave that linked photo on my album page so it doesn't show as a broken link.

In future I'll attempt to attach any pics to my post so you have them for permanence sake!.

As an addendum - I had been wondering about a "reverse" idea of deep V hulls that flood underfloor area for stability at rest, and drain the underfloor as they plane to a deep V for ride comfort.

I figure since I need a shallow drafting boat once I get to the islands but a comfortable riding boat to actually get offshore to my destinations - maybe I could water ballast it for the offshore trip - and jettison water upon arrival for shallow draft?

I see some major fuel cost disadvantages with carrying the extra ballast weight for offshore running, but can't see any "other way" around the conundrum...

I've wondered about some sort of catamaran hull for stability, maybe with a hysucat foil to reduce the wetted surface area and increase speed / fuel conservation for the offshore running?

All just "idea's" - i'm just throwing them into the melting pot in the hope of getting someones imagination fired ;)

Cheers!

[tom28571]

You have what appears, to me, a very tough design brief. What is your projected load capacity, including passengers and stores? It is hard to see a 25 foot boat accommodating 12 anglers at the same time and still meeting your other goals. The most advanced boats made in the US for this kind of use are probably the Worldcats. One link is at:

http://www.goboatingmag.com/goboating_mag/August00/worldcat.htm

I have a friend who recently bought a 26 foot version of the Worldcat and is extremely happy with it running to sea in the Gulf Stream off North Carolina. I think he uses a pair of 200hp Evinrudes but says it could do quite well with a bit less. It would deliver all your needs with the possible exception of the number of active fishermen. I have no idea how many it could serve.

I especially like constraints #2 and #3 at the top :D

So basically we have a boat with:

LOA: 25'
Beam: 8'-4"
Capacity: I'm sorry, what is "pax"? Is this 8 people or 14 people the boat needs to hold?

8 x ~200 = ~1600 or say 1800 lb of people
14 x ~200 = ~2800 or say 3000 lb of people (live weights)

"when loaded with full passenger manifest it must have more than one eighth beam in clear freeboard with all passengers on one side at same time!"

So that is an interesting stability challenge for a 25' boat if it is 14 people!

The range needs to be 350nm min - with two 150-200 hp OB's; let's see, how many gallons of fuel is this?

My initial thought was a shallow v out of aluminum for weight savings and durability and minimal draft, but then the question is what kind of seas does this boat need to handle at speed without pounding (since it is long range with passengers)? Maybe a kind of small tunnel multi would be called for?

A challenging project....

[Willallison]

Ah - not so easy!

Forget boats - what about a hovercraft !?!
You may run in to dramas finding something that would be acceptable in regards to survey - and outboards tend to be the power system of choice for charter boats as they are cheap, and easy to repair or replace, and simple when it comes to survey.
Perhaps not a viable solution (might be rather expensive...) but worthy of consideration.......

[trouty]

OK...sorry for the confusion.

Pax is abbreviation for passengers ...

so Crew = me plus deckie (2).
Passengers = 6 Maximum, usual load (4) = two pairs of fly fishers.

Total load = 8 persons maximum, usual working load 6 persons or less.

Requirements 2 & 3 above re 25ft length are a beauty aren't they?

You see - Marine Transport Dept issue Vessel Survey Certificates...and their legislation says anything under 25ft isn't allowed more that 5 mile from shore even if fully surveyed (it's classed as a "restricted" 2C survey).

Fisheries Departement issue Charter Licenses and their categories are 25ft and under, or over 25 ft.

What I want to do is exploit the 25ft length to stay within my Fisheries Dept charter license and still be able to get offshore to these islands like the bigger charter boats under marine transport legislation! :rolleyes:

Ideally - say a Maverick / Hewes style flats/bay type fly fishing boat would be great to work out of BUT...they can't meet our survey requirements for even "restricted survey" (within 5 miles of shore).

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=14613

In addition - any of the smaller 18 ft flats / bay boats....wouldn't be able to "legally" get to any of the locations where the best fly fishing is - the closest island is 12 nm - some of the others are 24nm and 50 nm offshore.

Theres no "recreational angling or small boat licensing" for the general public in this state - so a 10 year old kid in his parents bathtub can legally sail 50 mile offshore to these islands no problem...but it's different as soon as you want to start charging to run a bonafide tour where the safety of the paying public is involved!.

So....in order to do this - I need something that will get me to these darn islands and back legally - and still float skinny enough for me to access the flats and coral shoals to be able to drift around and fly fish the deeper holes within the coral...

You can see what it's like out there from this:-

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=12842

These coral trout are what hide in the holes in this coral.

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=12852

On the sand flats we can get out and wade so thats not a problem - but you can't wade over sensitive piatella and staghorn corals...

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=13015

Believe me - I'd like a smaller boat - the idea of towing 25 ft of Cat over 2500 miles of coastal highways back and forth through out the year to cover all the seasonal fly fishing opportunity's doesn't overly thrill me from a cost and time angle, but as said - I'm trying to operate legally within a legislative framework thats been designed for kill and grill demersal charter fishing ops from ex commercial lobster vessels etc....50 - 70 ft long with 20 passengers...what the US folks might call a headboat?

No one n Fisheries or Marine transport here have ever heard of Fly Fishing as say they might have in Florida.

Here, the flats have in the past been considered "bad" places where the tide goes out and leaves your Deep V hull stranded, and you have to get out and weight it to lay it onto one side and push it home off the flats thru the sea snakes and sharks...

Generally speaking anglers have avoided flats here ...until now.

I just want to go to work guys doing what i know how (guiding fly fishermen), but since this tough new legislation they've enacted here, I have to jump thru an awful lot of hoops to be able to offer some truly world class fly fishing to international fly fishers at remote locations.

Lost of folks would like to tangle with fish like this - I have to knock back a lot of tour work, for these sorts of destinations thru lack of a suitable vessel.

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=12802

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=13203

I've been casting an eye about at various cats etc - no one here makes a 25fter with centre console - they are all cuddy cabs (Noosa, Kevla, Leisurcat etc.)

From a survey stability point of view - a Cat seems the answer...so far unless someone can think of something else (rigid inflatable, hovercraft etc).

I'd imagine for the range at say 1.5 litres a side /mile...1050 litres = say roughly 250 gals fuel?

what kind of seas does this boat need to handle at speed without pounding (since it is long range with passengers)? Maybe a kind of small tunnel multi would be called for?

West Coast seas offshore can be about as bad as anywhere - our West coastline didn't gobble up all the Dutch east indiamen they could throw at her for nuthin! ;)

Worst I've been out in at the Houtman Abrlohos islands above was 48 knots, and six or seven meter swells with a few meters of sea on top - but the vesel was 70 ft long!

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/Photo_album/viewPhoto.cfm?photo_id=13202

Thankfully the wind had dropped a little from the 68 knots it was howling at during the night! (Lobsters don't stay in traps beyond 2 days as the bait runs out...you go to work regardless in that industry!)

Don't think I'd be tackling anything quite as radical as that in 25ft.....well not on purpose anyway!

The idea of an alloy cat or alloy tunnel multi really appeals to me....BUT - I know squat about boats which is why I'm here asking for "ideas"...imaginative solutons to the dilemma.

Theres 3 of us with these new fly fishing charter licenses, all looking for a boat to "get around" the archaic survey laws to be able to get started on saltwater fly fishing tours over the whole of the state and we can't seem to find an off the shelf proprietry boat to do the job.

It has to be built local so Marine Transport inspectors can witness the hull layup and certify it to specifications which rules out virtually all US built vessels.

Aslo virtually all US vessels have a 1:3 Beam / length ratio - meaning they are invariably 8ft 6 inch beam - which is 2 inches wider than we can legally tow on our roads and so on.

We have a LOT of alloy vesel builders here - most of the 600 boat commercial lobster fleet are now alloy...so getting one builts not a problem - finding a design is another story - the couple local naval architects are all flat out designing big tuna longliners, Lobster Boats and live aboard mutherships - us guys looking for small stuff arent even on the waiting list for a cad cam design unless it's one off their books they've done before (which aren't suited to fly fishing of course!).

This is what you get when you start a new industry....you have to be the first one to find innovative ways around archaic legislation, that others will no doubt try and follow.

Such is life - I just want to get on with the job, theres fish getting away out there!

Thanks for any ideas...keep em comming please!

Cheers!

[Polarity]

Trouty - would love to see the pics - slight problem that they all lead to a "please sign in" screen - at least for me anyway...

Sounds like a design challenge - I would have thought that a multi would be your only option. Unless of course you have the boat in one form for getting there and a different form for fishing from... - some form of extending platform, inflatable rafts/pontoons -just an idea.
...

Paul

[Willallison]

Have you spoken to Noosacat or any of the other local builders about building a custom deck one one of their existing hulls?
This would be by far the cheapest way of getting what you are after and they tend to have their hulls pretty well sorted.
Another little problem for you to consider..... Here in Tassie there are only a few vehicles that can legally tow something that big. We use a Holden Suburban diesel to tow our 26ft Edencraft (Formula). Even that is marginal when it comes to towing capacity. I seem to recall that we now enjoy national regs when it comes to this sort of thing - the manufacturer's own claim regarding max towing weight is the law - so I would think that unless you go for a light truck, you might be aground before you even get to the water......

Are RIB's commonly used for sportfishing?

I think of RIB's as sportboats for general recreation rescue boats, dinghies, some racing, but I've never thought about RIB's for a fishing rig. Is puncture from hooks and gear an issue, or are the tubes plenty thick and durable so this is not a problem?

If a RIB would be appropriate, how would the maintenance compare to an all FRP or aluminum boat?

[trouty]

I included img tags but they turned to links somehow - you can see I'm no expert at this - Please have patience with me - I'll get the hang of it..Jeff might have to coach me a little maybe?.

I have an idea tho..

Lets see if this works.

The first link above to the normal style flats / bay style centre console refered to..was this pic!.

[trouty]

That boats kind of nice for the shallows but a bit small to meet 25ft survey length and pretty low freeboard for the offshore aspect, but you can see the basic principal I kind of like.

The next Photo was what it's like out at the Houtman Abrolhos Archipellago...

This is the island I stay on, it's one of the smaller of the islands in the group known as Big Pigeon Island in the Wallaby group - one of only a half dozen or so islands occupied for just 3 months a year by commercial lobster fishers.

It's a safe anchorage within the island group - sheltered by islands and fringing reef from most directions - but indicative of the types of coral shoals there.

[trouty]

The Lobster Fishers at the islands tend to fish shallow corals with either jet boats or special adaptations like this 42ft vortex trihull with twin anrhessons.

[trouty]

When you do drift over the shallow corals, with fly gear - you can catch fish like these lovelly coral trout, out of the deep holes studded throughout the shoal - they hide in under the piatella (elephant ear) coral plates, and are a sucker for any red/white deciever fly stripped fast past their home.

Hooking thems simple - landing them almost impossible on fly gear - the are very hard to turn away from their hidy hole, and unless you put on enough pressure to turn them away they bust you every time.

If your lucky they will mistakenly go into a bigger coral trouts hole - and it will chase the interloper back out for you - have landed a couple good ones this way! :p

[trouty]

For the places like Dirk Hartog Island at Shark Bay,

Where there are sand flats - you can get out and wade fish so the shallow drafts like the small flats boats of only a few inches isn't so critical...and really not achievable in a 25ft boat I'd have thought?

[trouty]

From some of the deeper waters out around the Houtman Abrolhos archipellago we catch a few like this each day.

http://boatdesign.net/fimg/starlosnapper2.jpg

[trouty]

You get the odd ones of these too.

http://boatdesign.net/fimg/starlosamson1.jpg

[trouty]

This is a 70ft Fitzharding / Geraldton boat builders vessel that is atypical of the larger deep water lobster vessels that are used out at the Houtman Abrolhos...

It has substantial underfloor live lobster holding tanks etc...sleeps 6, and is powered by twin 750 hp Fiat turbo diesels.

Vessels like this can and do go to work in the conditions I described earlier (48 knots breeze - 5 7 or even 8 meters sea/swell etc), not because they want to but economics of fuel / bait etc dictate it!. (Its not a lot of fun on such days trust me!)

[trouty]

Paul,

The idea of an "extending boat" isn't totally off the wall - while it sounds a little radical I guess if you threw $ at the problem it would be solvable in that manner.

I actually heard a story o someone whse recently launched a vessel of this style here - I haven't witnessed it myself but apparently it raised a few eyebrows at the boat ramp!


Will,

Re:contacting local cats builders.
I have spoken to the local Leisurecat builder here who was keen on shortening his standard 8 meter hull to 7.5 meters (25ft), however it's a cuddy.

He claims it's cost prohibitive to make a centre console plug, for only one vessel ....and that I'd need to secure orders for say a minimum vessels to mak it worthwhile for him to build the centre console liner plug.

A little like the chicken and egg if you don't make one you can't sell them - so...unless i'm in the market for a whole fleet it appears thats not the easy solution which is a pity as they are very nice hulls.

As for the towing - yes its a consideration indeed, and 25 ft is a lot to haul - even mre when you look at the distances involved.
Thankfully the west here is pretty flat mostly, so perhaps not as daunting as Tassie!

I've been looking at the new Ford F250 4.2 turbo diesel dual cab / tray back..made in brazil I'm told - should be capable of the job...I think. Might even be able to build the trailer as a "5th wheel" type mounting in the tray like a semi trailer rig - you sometimes see this setup for big horse floats.

Guest..

Re Ribs for sportfishing...we don't see a lot of them used for that purpose - the danger of hooks , gaffs, coral etc et c for puntures is real, and not to be dismissed lightly IMHO.

Do see a lot of em for surf rescue vessels etc..

Next Guest..

On the same vein with Ribs - we are seeing a few "Ocean Cylinder" alloy RIB's fully welded alloy cylinder with alloy V hull & floor...very capable boats, stable and not hard to meet survey with many individual flotation copartments withing the alloy cylinder, however they do tend to be "very wet" boats used a lot on the hire boat market and dive vessels etc...

Not sure how they would go for this role - but certainly wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand!.

I've no doubt including all these pics has slowed this threads load speed tremendously so apologies to those who've persevered this far - perhaps if jeff knows how to shrink them in size and DPI count / file size - he could "edit the post to make it more user friendly?

If I knew how i would do so myself - but my skills don't extend that far yet...but I'm willing to learn if it'll save grief with threads load times.

Cheers!
This is the local leisure cat at 8 meter that would be a nice hull probably....if a whisker shorter and with a centre console plug!

http://boatdesign.net/fimg/leisurecat1.jpg

[Willallison]

I wouldn't go to the trouble of building a plug, mould and subsequent all f/glass console.
To a competent builder, it should be no problem to do the job by something along the lines of the west epoxy system (glass encapsulated ply) or a composite cored building process similar to that employed by a lot of one off custom sailboats.

[trouty]

Wet encapsulated something or other?
I've heard it referred to but never had it explained?
As it happens, I own a timber furniture factory etc and produce a lot of sheoke timber for the boatbuilding industry.

Are you saying Will - that - I could say buy a hull built to survey from the company and then fisnnish it off myself / customise it to a centre console configuration with ply and glass myself?

It's not like I havent got the machinery and timber skills - have built one boat myself so far ( a 16ft alloy v nosed punt) so guess I could manage a console etc easy enough.

I've done almost NO fibreglasing in my life and have no experience in this area if you discount the foam filled thwart seat i made fro timber and ply for the rear of the alloy punt and coated with CSM and resin and some flo cote. It's rough but honest....

Would you think I could do this?...and get an acceptable result?..

Would Transport dept allow me to pass it thru survey if the hull manufacture was to survey standard bye the company and they inspected it?..during the laying up?

Would I be better to let to company do it?

The company said drawing the plans for the internal plug was no trouble - they just didn't want to invest the time & $ into making the plug so they could sell one boat, maybe two if lucky.

Maybe i could make the plug to their plans in my spare time and supply it to them to use to make my hull?

Just idea's - has to be a way I can do this - I was more interested in the multi tunnel hull concept than the cat per se, since the twin OB's could be jackplate rigged for shallow draft - which i don't think is doable with a cat hull?

Also a multihull tunnel might displace more water and hence draft less than a cat?...cats handle offshore stuff here real well - but they don't carry weight all that well IMHO....

Soooo - where to from here. we have so far:-

Cat
Multi tunnel hull
Alloy Rigid Cylinder
Hovercraft
McGyver, "Go Go Gaget" extendo ponttoons oo7 hull! ;o)

Anyone else?

Cheers!
:D

[Jeff]

http://www.westsystem.com/ by http://www.gougeon.com/

[Jeff]

I think you could easily build a console yourself. The degree of difficulty, at least in my limited experience working with fiberglass, increases with the proportion of the scale of the object to the scale of the worker ;)

Small things are relatively easy to do a good job fiberglassing. I've also found it easier working on positives like a deck than way down in a mold where I tended to run into problems using too much resin as a beginner, or else ending up with poor consistency as I tried to tackle too large an area. As long as the corners are nicely rounded, you won't have any problems. I suppose it also depends on the degree of finish you want. Your first job might not be quite as shiny as a professionally molded item, but with a little sanding, priming, and more sanding, it will look just fine :)

[Willallison]

I'm not quite so sure as Jeff.... you'll be investing a fair bit simply in the construction of the hull etc - it'd be a shame to bugger it up with a poorly finished off console / deck etc.
Which isn't to say that you couldn't do it yourself, just that it's a pretty big job to take on if you don't have any experience with f/glassing.
And then (as there always is with a commercial project) there's the problem of getting through the survey process.
Here in Tassie, anything over 6m must be inspected throughout the building process - I'd expect it to be the same over there. Things generally run a lot smoother and with less trouble if a) the person doing the building is familiar with the way survey likes it done, and b) if survey are familiar with the builder and having worked with them before are confident that the final product will meet their requirements.
I'd talk it over with a couple of manufacturers and see what they say.
Also, I have a friend who often fishes from a commercially built cntre console cat which is about 25 ft long - give me a day or two and I'll see who it was built by.

[trouty]

I was thinking more of me making the timber inner liner console plugs for the manufacturer to use to make the glass liner and console.

I doubt after one attempt at glassing I could take on an inner liner 25ft long! I reckon I could do a fair job of a console tho, it's a "bite sized project" I reckon I could do (having already made one timber console and gear locker for my little 16ft river boat!)

Timber works not a problem for me - I can take a log from the forest floor and end up with furniture on the showroom floor. timberwork doesn't scare me.....I had 8 years as a forester and now own a sawmilling / kiln drying / furniture making shop...so "makin stuff outta timber" isn't worry.

It's the glassing has me scared.

My ol dads 71 now but he was quite a timber boat builder in his day and has taught me the timber joinery furniture game over most a my life I guess at one time or another.

This was an 18ft Randall design he built when i was just a kid in our back shed...
It's a bondwood, with a glass skin, inboard.
I've kinda grown up around boats and timber work...

It's not like I've got a shortage of timber suited to boat building, and it only takes 3 or 4 months to produce another kiln full if I ran out - in truth I probably should start timber boat building - but I KNOW how hard they are to maintain and how they deteriorate rot and also how laorious they are to build with scribing and hand fitting each piece several times to get an acceptable fit.

These days to my mind it makes more sense to do a CNC plasma cut alloy vessel construction package professionally designed and welded just for time savings and maintenance reasons.

Having built the 16 ft myself this way - I can't see the point using wood, except for some fancy polished trim maybe inside a cabin or berths or for say a nice feature console or something!.

Check out this boat - she was a lovelly ol gal...18ft tumblehome ...
Len Randall was a great naval architect hereabouts in my dads day...many many of his boats still plying our coast.

Cheers!

http://boatdesign.net/fimg/frosty1.jpg

[trouty]

This is one I built about 3 years ago now...it's what I use for river and estuary fly fishing tours - managed to get her thru the restricted survey for inland tours.

She's quite a cpable vessel in the right weather and operated with a little sense - here she is out at the end of Dirk Hartog isl - bout 34nm from civilisation. (She's the alloy punt on the right in the photo.

Now before she was surveyed it was (and still is) quite legal to take a small recreational vessel to these locations for a few mates fishing together (as was the case here - in company with another vessel as well - and with a 4wd land based support crew etc..

I just can't do it for paying tours, which is fair enough - who in their right mind would pay to go that far from civilisation in a little boat like that for a weeks remote fly fishing?

No - I need something 25ft long to legally offer commercial tours into these locations!.

Building one isn't the problem....finding a suitable design is the problem!

Let me worry about building it - just help me find a design that might meet the need!;)

Cheers!

[trouty]

The little 16 ft was made inside my timber factory...4 weeks part time work for a mate and I.

It was supplied pre cut, still nested in the sheets, by a naval architect, with instructions for step bye step assembly...quite easy really (compared to makin something outta wood!).

What is called a "vessel construction package"...

cheap and a quick way to get into a boat, if you don't mind getting the hands dirty.

Cheers!

http://boatdesign.net/fimg/boatbuild1.jpg

[trouty]

This is why I say the timber side of any project isn't a problem.

[trouty]

This is inside the timber factory (seasning Kilns out the back!)

http://boatdesign.net/fimg/factoryinterior.jpg

[trouty]

Wot comes out the front end of the factory!

Logs in the back & furniture out the front...this is real furniture the stuff you make from real wood - not that ply or particle board, particle board etc - this is real stuff, - you know, hand straighten and dress each piece, join it to another piece, add a few haunched mortices and tennons, a few dovetailed solid timber drawers and hey presto - furniture liker they used to make in the good ol days! :p

http://boatdesign.net/fimg/marriwinerack.jpg

[trouty]

The point I guess Guys of all these photo's - is they each tell a thousand words.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is this.

I can fish like Zane grey.
I can sail like Dennis Connor
I can build things outta wood like Noah.

I can't design a boat to save my life - which is why i'm here!

Is there anyone here who can get me onto someone who will create some sorta design where I can get started havin a boat built so I can get on with the job of taking people saltwater fly fishing in the best fly fishing waters on earth? ;) :D

[Stephen Ditmore]

I confess not having followed every twist in the conversation, but to respond to the initial question regarding boat type you might want to look into Stolkraft at
http://www.intbrokers.com.au/stolkraft/stolkraft.html
The type originated in Australia and works well with twin jet drives, which I would recommend for shoal draft / high speed applications. 25' x 8+' might be a bit narrower than this type tends to run, but I think it's possible.

The Legend Jet seems to be less expensive than the others I've priced, though it's also smaller than most of the Hamiltons and UltraJets.
http://www.legendjet.com/

[trouty]

Yes, I'm sorry it is a long thread I know..

Ahh - thats the trouble when your looking for something "outta the ordinary"...it sort of takes a lot of explaining - well for me it does - probably vaccinated at birth with a grammaphone needle!
:D

I'll follow thru with those links and see what I turn up thanks indeed - both links were firms I've not seen before.

Sort of a cross between these two is what i had envisioned!

This first is a US 24ft bay boat with a twin tunnel hull twin OB setup bye "scout" boats!

[trouty]

A 26ft twin tunnel hull again bye Scout of the USA!

Of course being made in the USA means they couldn't be surveyed here and they are just a couple inches overwidth to tow legally..sooo


If I could find someone to put together some sort of design along those lines that can prefereably be made from alloy (for weight, cost and speed) i'm ready to get cracking.

Like I said all the naval architects here are flat out with big boats, and it's hard to get them "interested" in smething a little outsode the ordinary like this.

Each of thelocal naval architects has their own "style"...Jackman, Curran and Mair are probably the 3 best known locally...but ALL flat out and all have their own ideas of what makes a great boat - getting someone to design a small boat for me is tough going locally.

The states full of builders who will make one - I sell timber to one guy makes 4 - 5 million worth of large tuna longliners, lobster boats, and even liveaboard charter boats in alloy each year...(last one went to Florida only weeks ago...) so I do know people in the industry to get one built and thru survey...just the design is the stumbling block and I figure with todays comuter designs - maybe anyone anywhere in the world can design the thing - as long as i get it built to survey locally I should be OK with the transport authorities!

Thats the plan unless theres a good reason I should do something different?...

Any comments - is it better to use a local naval architect...whose say more intimately familiar with our own specific transport marine surevey laws in case any face to face discussions / negotiation with the survey authorities is required?

I could be waiting years maybe to get in line....but if thats what has to happen then I'll just have to be patient.

It's hard cos I need to go to work to pay all the govt fees and charges for the commercial charter licenses, compulsory punlic liability etc etc, and the demands there - I just can't find a darn boat!

Cheers!

[MDV]

If the construction is in accordance with the rules then an American built boat should be able to be classed in Australia, in the case of composite boats you may have to take a few core samples to verify the layup and workmanship. I know of many cases where vessels originally built for private use and hence without survey during building, and have then been converted for commercial use succesfully.

Regarding the original problem of keeping the length above 25ft to meet survey requirements. The USL is slowly being phased out, and will be replaced by the National Standard for Commercial Vessels (NSCV) . Although broadly based on the USL Code there may be some impact for you if you decide to wait for it's implimentation.

With so many NA's in Australia, I'm sure you will be able to find someone willing to take this project on (including me if I did not work fulltime), I would try places like Brisbane and Sydney, and with the internet there should be no problem with communication. Perhaps you will have more luck with the freelance NA's working from home rather than a large firm.

Good Luck,

Michael


National Maritime Safety Committee (http://www.nmsc.gov.au)

[Stephen Ditmore]

If you used an RIB like
http://www.protectorboats.com/
could the rigid part be 25 feet X 2.5 meters and the inflatable tube extend beyond those dimensions?

[trouty]

Thanks fella's,

I've tried to ask Marine transport folks here about surveying a less than 12 months old US 25ft vessel and they said "no way".

They want to be present when the hulls layed up to check, the firms adherance to temperatures - the quality type of resin, and so on (cleanliness contamination etc), basically the protocols used to ensure a high standard hull.

Same with welded alloy hulls - they want to inspect the process as it goes along, not after it's all finnished aparently.

One single "problem" with almost every 25ft US hull is the beam.
Nearly all are 8ft 6inches. Some are 9 ft or larger.

Our towing laws require 2.5 meters Max width, which is 8ft 4 inches. A full 2 inches LESS that what standard US manufacturers use, and at the end of the day it's probably just the difference between a country with metric as opposed to imperial measurements as it's base unit of measurement - BUT it does preclude virtually ALL the suitable US hulls from being legally "towable" on the roads here - even if the need for "inspection of the hull during layup" to meet survey can be overcome!.

I've been looking around trying to find a small designer who works from home whose designs I like, to no avail so far.

I've found a few who work in plate alloy, and so far they all seem to favour a very "hard angular straight line look" to their designs.

I'm one of the old school who likes smooth curved flowing lines, much like the old 18ft randall displacement hull I posted bback early on in this thread.

I see some of these designs on the water - or in boats listed for sail on the internet....and I've come to recognise a few of the leading architects design signatures.

Jackmans have a straight line chine back to almost halfway along the hull. Currans have a steep rake cabin and very angular etc...

I alooking for something "sweet" looking. I know alloy lends itself to angular designs but I've seen one or two alloy vessels with smooth sweet lines I like...just don't know who designed them!

If I could use a RIB (without puncturing it with fly hooks and gaffs etc, theni guess the dimensions of the inflatable part wouldn't count in the survey / towing regulations?..(I'm not an expert on these things and they are in the process of being changed as I type apparently..

I hope to find some small localdesigner who can do a design for me of a twin tunnel multi hull cathedral style thing, with twin outboards and maybe a walkround island cab - that has windows which remove or fold down for warm weather like a centre console and folu up for more temperate colder weather area's - sort of the best of both worlds.

I'll keep looking - if you guys know of anyone looking for the paying work for goodness sake speak up or point me in the right direction.

Thanks again & cheers!!

[trouty]

Well,

After listening and takin the sound advice offered here, I have managed to track down a smaller operator prepared to have a go on a little 25fter for me.

Aftyer a weeks emails and discussions and swapping a few photo's - we're stilll refining the hul lines a bit, but I'm reasonably happy were headed in the right direction.

This is the rough outlines so far - I'm still playing with things at my end to refine the shape some for a little more sleek look..

Any opinions welcome.

This is just hullform excercise at the moment..

Cheers!

[trouty]

This is another look, upside down.

:)

[trouty]

increase the rake angle on the bow, sort of pulling it back under further so the rollover chines catch and ride more of it's own bow wave for additional lift, and sweep the gunnel line for'ard higher like this for a sleeker look - might lower freeboard just a bit more at the stern too.

Whattya think?:confused:

[duluthboats]

It might look like this on the water.
http://www.ewboats.com/247cc.htm
Very close anyway
Gary

[trouty]

It's uncanny just how close they look eh?

I don't think i can get the same lines in Alloy as the edgewater you depicted....

http://www.ewboats.com/ewboats/new_247cc.jpg

I was kinda hoping to reconfigure the bottom shape from what the design currently shows thus...

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/UserFolders/trouty/PhotoImages/HULL1A2.jpg

to something with a little finer entry and more flare, like this

[trouty]

BUT - I don't think I can get a compound concave curve in plate alloy like the last image without making the bottom into a patchwork quilt...so it apears edgewaters fibreglass shape will be safe for now from my alloy design depredations! :D

If there was a way I could do it - rest assured - I would!;)

Cheers!

[Bill the Cat]

Is building your own possible - Bill the Cat (http://www.davesflatcat.com) Here is my home design - it is certainly expandable to 25" and could easily be developed with a bit of V for the hulls - push to 8" beam and add a second outboard in the tunnel area - 2 - 50's 4s would be both economical and fast.

Hey I'm a new guy - it's just a thought:)

[trouty]

Hey thats a nifty cat plan you have there - I can imagine it would be a great winter project boat. I reckon you'd enjoy it and possibly learn a lot into the bargain during the process.
Course - at the end you'd have the pride of ownership of something you built yourself...something an off the shelf boat can never match.

Actually I work wood for a living
http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/UserFolders/trouty/PhotoImages/Raw%20Slabs.jpg

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/UserFolders/trouty/PhotoImages/BobtailBoomerang5.jpg

- so for me - the idea of going back to the factory at nights to build a wooden "boat" in my spare time isn't all that attractive. (I swallow enough sawdust during the day without taking it up at night as well).

I also think timber boats are higher maintenance, and I need low maintenance for charter work.

I built my current boat a 16ft Alloy Barrumundi punt,
http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/UserFolders/trouty/PhotoImages/MARUDHI.jpg
from an alloy Kit, so building another larger alloy boats not beyond the realms of possibility.

The "hard" part of it tho is getting a self build thru Dept Transport Survey for carrying paying passengers. The Dept Surveyors want to inspect the progress of the build of the vessel.....standards of tradesmanship, the quality of materials and processes, etc right throughout construction.

Seeing I'm not a "qualified" welder of alloy (experience doesnt count without the bit of paper) - I'd have to pay a tradesman to weld it for me in order to meet the regulations..

On top of that - I'd also have to pay the transport inspectors for endless trips overnight from the city to where I live (600Kms round trip) to inspect it being built multiple times and so it goes on.

In the end it's probably "cheaper" (read less of a headache) to get someone in the city who builds boats all the time to do it for me...

Now - as to cats...I'm not adverse to the idea of a cat at all....even an alloy cat.

Cats ability to carry weight tho isn't as good as many think....they are fine when lightly loaded...and in moderate seas, however when heavily loaded, and in rough stuff, they pound in between the sponsons.

For charter work - the boat ALWAYS ends up heavily loaded, because apart from all the mandatory "gear" you must carry to meet survey, you also must take along every thing that anglers always forget...

Invariably charter boats end up weighing twice what a normal recreational vessel weighs..., but you can bet that whatever you need is aboard...(somewhere)!:rolleyes:

Of course for the same weight cats usually draft more than a equivalent monohull, so a heavily laden cat, in shallow work, actually isn't as capable as a shallow drafting mono heavily laden..(these are generalisations).

I've seen a REALLY nice alloy cat that gave me some ideas tho - fitted with a hysucat foil system...which would reduce draft while on plane, cut fuel costs etc...very handy for charter work...

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/UserFolders/trouty/PhotoImages/32%20ft%20alloy%20Hysucat%20foil%20fincat!.jpg

The only "potential problem" could be the reverse boomerang foil system between the sponsons fouling with either weed and / or Lobster trap floats ropes which are very prevalent in some of the areas I fish..... one place theres anything up to 15,000 traps a day set...each with two floats separated bye a short length of rope...probably the "perfect foil trap" if ever there was one. :(

The floats are usually white and with sun in eyes and a few whitecaps, running over them occasionally is inevitable.

The idea of having to dive over the side with a knife between my teeth to cut the floats off the foil doesnt overly impress me in some of the waters I fish, it could be a short term career move!.

http://www.fishingworks.com/Users/UserFolders/trouty/PhotoImages/Sharks%201882.JPG

Also - when at rest - the foil does nothing to reduce draft, for shallow flats work.

I guess the "answer" is to build a 65ft mother ship and tow a few 16 ft glass flats boats behind, and liveaboard, but thats outta my league I'm afraid...

Sooo back to the drawing board!

I'm flat broke anyway - waiting to sell some land off to finance the new boat so it's a waiting / research / planning game in the interim..

Cheers!

[gonzo]

I think that with the restrictions you have a folding multihull is the best solution. They are several sailboats in production that have perfected the technology. A trimaran has the advantage of running a single engine. A catamaran is cheaper to build but needs twin engines. Both have enormous initial stability. This could give you a towing beam of 2.5 M and an unfolded beam of 3.5 or whatever you need. Another advantage of multihulls is their shallow draft. Are there displacement restrictions too?

[lewisboats]

I agree with GONZO, the way to go is with a folding design. You may be able to get away with just folding deck extensions, but the additional stability of outboard flotation when the decks are down would lead me to add sponsons to the bottom of the decks, in effect making a trimaran. Perhaps a system of keeping them up at a 30 deg angle or so, when running full speed would keep wetted area down and speed up, then lower them to flat when you slow down or stop.

Another idea that comes to mind it to have a two part boat. I don't know if you have ever seen them, but SeaDoo has a boat that uses a PWC as a power sorce but makes a hull that the pwc fits into for a nice two person speed boat. What I was thinking is use your flats boat as the powersource for a larger unpowered hull. Mate the two and cruise to where you want to go, then detatch the flats boat or center part of the folding boat and go fishin'. This might be in the future, but if you plan for this now, and build the boat so that you can build the bigger hull to mate to it later, you can take your time and go easy on the financial resources in constructing the large unpowered hull. You might be able to design the folding boat to detatch the folding decks and us the center hull as the power source for the larger boat. I guess what I am trying to get at is think of the thing as a modular system, start small and build upon it as the $$$ roll in.

Steve.

[trouty]

Truly guys - thats really lateral thinking and a great idea - a boat within a boat...

Hmm gunna have to "sleep" on that and chew the idea over in my minds eye...a boat within a boat...

The mind boggles... a detacheable flats boat! :)

Fold out wing sponsons...

Hmmm...

Thanks - thats given me something to think about!

Cheers!

[marcel]

I am rather new to boat design and construction, but have been following this site and learning. I just want to add my penny worth to this thread.

The following link should be a design that suites your purpose. http://www.boatdesigns.com/cgi-bin/store/web_store.cgi?page=cruisemissile.html&&cart_id=2751311_4049. It is intended to be built in grp and is 32 ft long. I think it should be easy enough to rescale the lenght to 25ft and that should get the beam at around 8ft as you needed.

marcel

[blkcat79]

the boat you r lookin 4 is very close 2 a boat built in tarpon springs,fl.it's on the web-www.gausebuiltboats.com.beam is ur only issue.maybe they can do a custom one off 4 the boys downunder.good luck,cheers.

ps-very sweet 26 footer

[Kevin Lester]

If you visit www. mallards.co.za you'll find some interesting boats under the fishing boat menu. It doesn't seem as if they have one that will exactly meet your requirement but it may be close enough for the designer to adjust his plan to suit you.

[Adam_melb]

trouty,
southwind UB770?
just a suggestion

also blackwatch 25 - not really suited to fly-fishos but could be with a few mods

Cheers adam

[trouty]

Yes,

I've seen the Cobra Cats in the Flesh a few years back at the Perth Boat show and they looked to be great boats, with the African rand trading low against the Aussie $ they also were attractive from a price point of view.

About the biggest hurdle was the survey aspect - getting a foreign boat thru survey is very hard - I've been in dispute with our survey authorities now for some 6 months, can't even get a 21 Kevla cat into a restricted 2 C for fly fishing within 2 miles of shore! :rolleyes:

Theres always a zillion hurdles they come up with that I just can't jump... :mad:

As to the UB 770 - well yes - agreat hull - but:-

A) I thought Yama had pulled the pin on Southwwind in Oz and they are now made in Brazil or somewhere from the Original moulds? (Meaning again - survey hassels - I was also told Yama / southwind are no longer interested in trying to satisfy the unreasonable requirements of our surveying authorities and only sell boats to recreational users. :rolleyes:

B) The Blackwatch 25...

Yes...based on the old Formula 23'3 hull I'm reliably told... a very good pedigree - I forget now what they quoted me for a new one in 2c survey = $250,000???? rings a bell? :rolleyes:

At one point I think Blackwatch had balsa cored hulls below waterline, but NOW I think it's only balsa abe waterline...so yes I really do like the Blackwatch 25 centre console...but cost is a consideration after all

Draft on the blackwatch is pretty deep too - and not a lot to be gained with jackplates and low water pickups etc due to no tunnels to run the surface piercing props in...

But so far the UB 770 and 25 Blackwatch are about the closest I've seen to what I'd really like...

Theres actually a second hand Blackwatch 25 for sale in Perth at the moment,listed with one of the brokers and it's NOT that dear and would be lovely IF it could be surveyed - again Transport want nothing to do with an already built boat, they want me to get a new boat period, have a yr 2000 21ft Kevla cat with twin 100 4 stroke Yams sitting in the slip now that they won't survey..because they can't get a set of the plans for the bulkheads placements from the company (who don't have the plans).

Company was sold By Owner same moth my hull was built - they don;t know aWHO built it so can't sign a stauatory declaration to say that it was layed up according to its specifications becaise they don;t know whether they or previous owner of company built the hull etc etc etc...

Dealing with Marine Transport here is a nightmare - if the head surveyor, transport minister tourismminioster and Fisheries minsietr between them can't get a near new 21 ft cat into restricted survey what chance have I got with a Blackwatch from the Eastern states or a 2nd hand one already here?

There are so many "holes" in our transport laws that you could drive the new QE @ thru them.

I'm at the point of taking out a law suit against the ministers and chief surveyor - I've had enough of being stuffed around basically it's gone on for 6 months now just on the Cat alone.

Under the same USL code - in the USA I'd be operating on an OUPV survey (6 pack) wioth NO SURVEY required - but NOT here in Good ol Australia - even tho supposedly we operate under the same USL code! :rolleyes:

Heres some anomalys for you.

A boat under 7.5 meters CAN be surveyed for paying pasengers if they are divers - but nit fly fishermen! Divers get out into the water anyway - the fact fly fishers get out into the water to wade fish doesn't count! :rolleyes:

A Boat under 7.5 meters can be surveyed for "workers" like federal police etc into 2 C survey, but NOT for paying passengers! :rolleyes:

Volunteers in the SES (State Emergency Service) - get river flood 'rescue' boats etc provied by FESA, (Fire Emergency Services Authority). They aren't surveyed at all!.

My son's in the SES - it's OK for him to be drowned in an unsurveyed boat while 'volunteering' to save peoples lives for the govt.

It's OK for Govt workers to be drowned in boats under 7.5 meters.

It's OK for Paying Divers to go out in boats under 7.5 surveyed length.

It's NOT OK to go fly fishing in boats under 7.5 meters, even tho the watres less than thigh deep and people get out to wade fish anyway! :rolleyes:

Franklly the survey Authorities here are a bunch a phukwhits, (Apologies for my Language Jeff, I'm pretty cranky about this boat survey shyte!) :mad:

It's a clusterphuk of the greatest magnitude - the people in charge of surveys are just inept azzwipes basically...

You can go saltwater fly fishing in a myriad of boats under 7.5 meters anywhere in the world except Western Australia - despite the $8,000 I've paid for charter licenses I can't legally use for the last 5 years issued by Fisheries WA.

Basically the only way this will get fixed is If I sue them which is about my last resort now.

I just can't keep throwing $ at these wankers - they don't KNOW what they want - and they can't tell me waht I CAN use to go to work....

They tell me they are "rewriting" the rules to try and accomodate fly fishing - but I could be long since broke waiting - it's been over 6 months now with no result...

To top it off - I have unlicensed charter ops from interstate operating fly fishing tours here illegally from unsurveyed boats - abnd even when i complain about it - they can't manage to intercept or prosecute them! :rolleyes:

I might just as well do the same - scrap m charter licenses forget about surveyed boats and just run illegal tours like everyone else - it's too damn hard and too damn expensive to do it legally -I'd go so far s to say it can't be done in WA.

There is evidence of official corruption within the survey authority in Wa (with their own nacal architect designing boats on the side for one boat builder whose boats always get thru survey, above or below 7.5 meters).

The implication is - that unless you buy a boat thru that builder -so the epats naval archotect gets a kick back - they will go out of their way to frustrate any attempts you make to get a hull survey.

I think It's time we got riod fo the entrebnched corruption and ineptitude in our Marine transport aurthority here in WA and I'm just the fella to do it.

Heads are gunna role - coz now I'm reall pissed off!

It wouldn't matter what boat i showed up with. Theres no way the azzwipes here in marine Transport authority could get it into survey!

I'll just go illegal - bugger it - it aint worth the headaches! I've tried it the legal way - it don't work - Period.

Cheers!

[Kevin Lester]

Trouty
I feel for your frustration, in some small way I can sympathise. I work in construction, I advise on multi million rand projects in South Africa, Africa and Middle East. I decided I'd build my own house, I could save about 50% of the cost of buying one and technically it would be an easy project.

I searched for a piece of ground that I liked for over a year and eventually found one. Then the headaches started, I couldn't get a bond from the bank because I wasn't registered as a builder with the official registering body. ( It doesn't matter that I advise these sort of guys every day on technical matters) The only thing to do was to pay the large fee and register with them. I thought I was on my way. No way. The bank will not approve finance without approved municipal plans, but it costs a lot of money to get the plans approved and if the bank then turns the bond down it will all have been thrown down the drain. Another fight with a stubborn banker, to no avail. Once I'd taken the risk and had the plans approved now the bank will not approve the bond because in their opinion I cant build the house with the amount of money I've asked for. (Which I was able to do in the end). It didn't matter how many bills of quantities and price estimates I submitted, stubborn bankers know better than experienced construction persons. Of course the amount of money they want me to apply for to build the house is way more than my salary will allow me to apply for.

While all this silly bickering is going on in our fine banks my offer to purchase is about to expire, then all the money I've spent registering, getting plans approved etc will have been thrown to the wind, not to mention the year I spent looking for a property I really liked.

Just before I throttled every banker in the country I found one who agreed to give me a bond to the maximum my salary allowed.

It's a long story of frustration with me often wishing I'd never seen the inside of a bank. Every step of the way was tied up with enough red tape to tie you down for the rest of your life.

Just one small incident, I bought roof tiles that were made by a company owned by the bank that gave me the bond. The roof tiles are specified for hurricane zones in the Southern USA because of their strength and ability to withstand extreme conditions. But each tile is not stamped with the official SABS approval stamp so I was ordered to remove the roof and use another (inferior) product that does have a stamp on each individual tile. I fought this one tooth and nail, I literally couldnt afford to remove the roof and replace it, eventually after very numerous and very heated debates with the bank inspector I managed to get approval.

I did eventually get it all done, but I dont know wheter the headaches were worth it, but I did build for about half the cost of buying.

The most frustrating, as you have also noted in your case, was to watch others breaking the law and yet getting away with it. The professional builders employ unskilled labour who dont do any work according to the regulations, they use unapproved materials and yet somehow they all get their buildings approved, I'm sure there are kick backs involved.

The poor guys like you and me who want to do things properly are blocked at every turn.

To encourage you, I eventually have my house. I really hope that soon you'll be able to post on this web site that you've got your boat!

All the best.

[L.DOSSO]

Trouty, see my Shimmer 33 in the gallery(cruisers).SHE HAS TWO VOLVO AD31P/DPE (2x150hp).32.4ft from transom to point wher deck meets bowextension,10.07ft wide,draft 17 inches (hull),27'' with Z-drives,8400 lbs,a chemicalWC can be added,she has 161 US gallons of diesel fuel,hull is grp built.Frames and stringers are Airex+fiberglass.Dec is sanDwich built.As you can see on the deck plan,we can easily add four more seats on pedestals in the cockpit.I estimated top speed to be 27-28 KNOTS.lucas

[im412]

touty....
i know this will be a bit late for you..being that its 2005

the southwind ub range is now being built by southern star marine near gosford nsw
they build to survey..so it wont be a problem

they are a great boat..i've got the ub580 and its a very stable fishing platform
and is very seaworthy
cheers jack

[masrapido]

It was an interesting read this thread. From a passenger, 28-30 knots, charter boat to a little personal bathtub...