Motor Sailers?

[Viceroy]

I'm familiar with the majority of conventional motor sailers, mostly the European models (Fisher, Nauticat, etc.) but feel there is still room for improvement. In the world of aging sailors, the comfort of an enclosed pilothouse and inside stearing is more than appealing to this group. My ideal vessel would reduce the compromises of good sailing and good motoring characteristics. Further, in the 38' - 45' range, a couple should be able to comfortably operate and live aboard for extended periods with the conveniences of most shore-side systems. Only occassional, short-term guests would be on board so separate cabins and heads would be eliminated, in favour of one large master stateroom and head/shower/bath. A couple of sea berths would be sufficient. The pilot house would have comfortable seating and a dining area with ports/windows to enjoy the view. Despite these windows - storm covers - the vessel should be capable of ocean passages. In addition to good sailing, an engine should be powerful enough to give a good turn of speed in an engine room that provides ease of maintenance...with room for a generator, water maker, furnace/hot water heater and bank or batteries.
Question...are there any new designs and builders devoted to motor sailing vessels as described?
Cheers, Richard.

[Stephen Ditmore]

I don't have an imediate answer, though I suspect there is a good one. Meanwhile, see http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=441&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 for some discussion of motorsailers. If you're interested in a custom design and willing to pay for it, I'd be interested in this assignment. If you want a production boat, give me a little time and I'll see what I can come up with. What boats that you've seen come closest? How much draft are you willling to tollerate?

You might want to check out three British lines:
http://www.northshore.co.uk/yachts/south/south.htm
http://www.oystermarine.com/oyster42.html
http://pacificcoast.net/~dhamilton/fog.html

And definately check out:
http://members.tripod.com/banjer37msclub/motorsailing.htm

[Polarity]

http://www.nauticat.com/

[Stephen Ditmore]

As I reread your post, Richard, I see you mention the Fishers and Nauticats. Well, if you want to improve windward performance then I'd ask how much draft you can tollerate, or if you'd consider a lifting keel. If you want speed on a broad reach then I'd encourage you to think long & lean, like the famous Laurent Giles 111' Blue Leopard or a Deerfoot, Dashew, or McGregor 65, only smaller. Are you serious about a custom vessel, or are you looking for a production boat or an existing used boat?

[Viceroy]

Greetings, Stephen and Polarity...many thanks for your insightful comments and leads. Lots of study before I unleash from shore. FYI, I really would prefer a pure power vessel but my first mate is keen on seeing canvas stretched...and the cost per mile travelled lowered...for our eventual retirement afloat. I'll let you know when a compromise has been reached and a vessel selected. Cheers, Richard.

I am currently discussing the design details for a similar project with a repeat client. He is interested in a motorsailer in the range of 38-40 feet, large turn of speed under power, pleasant accomodations, etc. We are tentatively planning for the design to be completed and ready for construction of the prototype boat in mid-to- late summer. His domestic situation is similar to what you describe: retired, likes distance sailing, wants room for occasional overnight guests, etc. We expect to market the design when complete and trialled. Contact me if you would like to discuss this further.

[Viceroy]

Avast, "Guest"...by all means, I would be delighted to be kept in the loop. You can e-mail me at <Ramsay64@aol.com>. I look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Richard.

I design steel "motorsailers" because I don't like to call them sailboats or auxiliaries. They are built a little heavier with more tankage. see my site at http://persweb.direct.ca/tbolt

[Polarity]

Hi Trevor
welcome to the forums, actualy I really like your cruiser/racer http://persweb.direct.ca/tbolt/Aura.htm

Cheers

Paul

[Portager]

I share your enthusiasm for MOTORsailors and many of your objectives, but not for your first mates justification.

My boat will have a 3,500 NM range on 350 gallons of diesel. If the sail could reduce my fuel consumption by 50%, I'd pay off a $10,000 roller furling Bermuda rig in about 6.25 circumnavigations. If I use a home made Junk sail at <$1,000, I still need to go >15,000 NM to break even.

So why do I want a sail? Well, (1) get home drive, (2) stabilization, (3) insurance rates (4) looks and (5) maybe I'll save a little on fuel.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[tspeer]

Here's a 42' design with enclosed pilot house, very seaworthy for offshore passages, good speed under sail, efficient under power, a generous outside cockpit, and separate cabins if desired. I think it meets all your criteria quite handily.

http://www.ChrisWhiteDesigns.com/atlantic42/default.html

[Portager]

Richard;

You might want to look at Michael Kasten's web site http://www.kastenmarine.com/.

I am particularly fond of the GreatHeart 36 http://www.kastenmarine.com/greatheart36.htm and the Wave Runner 36 http://www.kastenmarine.com/wave_runner.htm which are displacement and semi-displacement hulls with common interior arrangements. When fitted with a get home sail these design meet most of your requirements. If you fit bilge keels to the GreatHeart 36 design they will improve sail performance, improve roll stabilization and, by providing additional fuel storage volume, they provide more room in the engine room for your generator, water maker, furnace/hot water heater and bank of batteries.

By the way, the battery bank should not be located in the engine room. Elevated temperatures significantly reduce battery life. The batteries should be located in a compartment separate from or isolated from the engine room heat and vented for light gas (hydrogen) emissions. The batteries should be a spill proof type (i.e. valve regulated) or configured with a drip pan to catch and contain sulfuric acid. Vented batteries should be located or enclosed so that if salt water accumulates in the bilge it can not enter the battery vent holes (and produce toxic chlorine gas).

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[Viceroy]

To all who have replied to my original inquiry, many thanks for your comments and advice. As a work in progress, at least at this discovery/research point, I have to admit to a bias to mono hulls rather than multi hulls. Further, we (my better half, actually) prefer an over-sized & fully windowed deckhouse, as most sailing hulls "are like living in a cave". Sorry about that! Sketches still pour off my writing desk as compromises arise...but that's what designing is all about. Thankfully, a couple of years remain before all the bits and pieces can be (hopefully) knitted together into something that resembles a "pretty" and accomodating vessel worthy of everyones effort. Thanks again, Cheers, Richard.

[Stephen Ditmore]

Trevor Bolt - I like what I see. Nice web site! How near are you to Tad Roberts <http://www.tadroberts.com/>? I could imagine you collaborating on a boat for Richard.

I looked through the Kasten sailboats, Richard, and you might also want to check out http://www.kastenmarine.com/shiraz.htm, though this is a bigger boat than you stipulated (and I may be biased by having dated a Shiraz briefly).
I'm big on self pitching propellers such as an AutoProp <http://www.autoprop.com/> or (for larger yachts) controllable pitch such as a Hundested Propulsion System <http://www.hundestedpropeller.dk/> for motorsailers in order to make most efficient use of the ability to operate under sail and power simultaneously.

[Portager]

Do you have experience with AutoProp?

For small yachts, I thought the Sabb HVP controllable pitch propeller http://www.sabb.no/engelsk/hvp_gear.htm would be better than AutoProp (although I have no personal experience with either) because you can feather the prop and control the pitch of the blades. The Sabb HVP is also more economical than the Hundested props for the power range they cover.

Cheers;
Mike Schooley

[brian eiland]

I've had quite a number of inquires and comments on my 'motor/sailer' disscussion in www.RunningTideYachts.com

This months Good Old Boat magazine has an article on motor sailors by Ted Brewer which I commend as a great starting point. In point of fact, Ted is something of a master of designing vessels such as you describe and I am sure that he would have some stock designs that would suit your purposes, or he obviously could be commissioned to do a custom design. In addition, he designed some great production pilot house sailboats such as the Oceanic 38 and 44 and some small trailerable motorsailors such as those built by Nimble boatworks that may be worth considering. Good luck. Brad

[brian eiland]

Hi Richard,
You might find discussion of the subject interesting even though you don't have a great interest in multihulls.

http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

....partial excerpt...
One particular design has haunted me for years. It was I think a Phil Rhodes design somewhere around 60'~70', a ketch, with a sizable twin engine room, over which was located a grand main saloon with portlights above deck level. This main saloon had great comfort and expansive vista's, and opened onto a sizable aft deck with a fishing chair at its center. There was even a mini-flybridge helm station and a crow's nest. What a great all-around design to liveaboard and travel the world. She could do anything and everything!! I have in 30 years only seen one or two comparable designs, and sadly I lost those clippings and the pictures of the original design, but the concept has remained with me all these years.

We don't hear much of motorsailers these days. They're not a popular subject. Traditional motorsailers have always been such a compromise, they have fallen into disfavor in the market, and in the boating literature. The term has even had negative connotations for several decades now. Should not today's boats be faster and better with new materials, light marine diesels, and better shapes? Should not this be the sensible alternative, the common sense move up from the beloved family sailboat? When trawler options are discussed, suggestions of boredom arise. A lifetime of sail would be discarded, and what happens when the motor quits? Well, hopefully it won't quit, but one can always sail home in a boat with sails on it. For truly long-range cruising and/or remote exploration, the motorsailer can outshine both the sailing aux and the trawler types.

We need to modernize the motorsailer. The multihull plan-form holds great promises to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran type vessel have proven themselves to be real efficient to push under both power & sail. And not only are they efficient, but they can be pushed beyond the traditional hull-length/speed limitations. Just what the modern motorsailer needs, a far less compromising increase in both their sail & power performance, while maintaining an economy of operation that allows truly long range capability.

[keithw]

Running Tide has a nice discussion and some nice looking cats - but I didn't find in my visit to the Motor/sailing page any reference to range (sorry if i missed it...!) For oceanic sailing we might need 2500 nm plus 10% - with two 60 hp engines thats what - at an AVERAGE of 10 knots ( pretty damn quick average to me, but I am slooow) 250 hrs @ 5-8 litres an hour? two tonnes of fuel / 3 or 4 cubic metres in size...
Can any cat of manageable size (35-50 feet) carry this kind of load and still acheive the speeds we hear about?
be nice to hear from someone who has built and motor-cruised such a motorsailer over such distances.

[asathor]

The primary advantages of sailing should be clarified:

1. Noise - sailboats a quieter
2. You can't go where you want to "just like that"

The first helps you keep you sanity and enjoy the environment and unless you go bonkers on performance sailing so does the second. Sailing is a process not an end product (destination) like driving and power boating and therefor well suited for retirement when you need to burry your type A ax and get the blodpressure under control.

My spouse also hates "Basements" : As in who would pay $xxx,xxx.00 for a Basement!!

Actually I agree with her, I want to visit foreign harbors and be able to sit at my dinner table and toast the gawkers or read a good book in daylight while underway.

This is sometimes called Raised Saloon as well as Pilot House - You can always add inside stearing if the layout otherwise suits you.

I really like this Brewer design and hope to get my wife on board one in time for retirement (see samples here): http://www.yachtworld.com/core/uk/listing/cache/pl_search_results.jsp?cit=true&ybw=&slim=quick&sm=3&is=&type=&man=brewer&luom=126&fromLength=40&toLength=40&fromYear=&toYear=&currencyid=1004&fromPrice=&toPrice=&cint=

Asathor

[asathor]

PS.

Speed is a function of time and distance. In retirement you will have all the time you need and consequently all the distance you need.

Comfort is much more important and a moderate to heavy boat will be much more comfortable.

[jdhowland]

This is especially timely for me, as my wife and I are getting close to deciding on our design. Although we have planned and looked and thought and figured, it is difficult when it comes down to it. I thought that motorsailor was a dirty word, untill I began to read about "sail-assisted" trawler (or troller) type boats. I have enjoyed reading everyone's input and ideas on this thread, and on this board in general. Please keep up the good work, nothing ever evolves in a vacuum!
The free and civil exchange of ideas and opinions will perhaps prove to be the greatset contribution of the internet and the personal computer. How else could a novice such as myself have access to so many designers and N.A.'s?
John

[mattotoole]

Center cockpit cruising sailboats with full cockpit covers make great motorsailors. The cover can be soft, hard, or half and half. Once you've been aboard a good design like this, "pilothouse" sailboats with inside steering stations seem silly, and the extra steering station a waste of space. A good cockpit cover is as good a pilothouse as any.

A cruising sailboat with moderately light displacement and clean lines can cruise comfortably at hull speed plus with enough power. I've seen a Maple Leaf 42 chugging along gracefully at over 10kt. Since I've seen these advertised with 135HP Lehmans, that's probably what this one had. These boats exceed hull speed readily under sail, so why not under power? I've seen some Beneteaus really ripping along too, though they were aft cockpit boats not passing the pilothouse test.

In light of all this, I don't see much need for a "motorsailor" -- unless you want to go *much* faster under power. In that case I think Mr. Eiland's cat beats a monohull like the Brewer design mentioned. The Brewer would be easier to park though, so it's more suitable for marina hoppers.

Anyone interested in motorsailors should check out Stan Huntingford's designs -- particularly the Maple Leafs, but the others as well. They perform extremely well under both power and sail.

[Skippy]

If you have a fast sturdy (sail) cruiser with a good solid inboard deisel, what's to keep you from installing bigger fuel tanks and calling it a passagemaker?

[brian eiland]

Running Tide has a nice discussion and some nice looking cats - but I didn't find in my visit to the Motor/sailing page any reference to range (sorry if i missed it...!) For oceanic sailing we might need 2500 nm plus 10% - with two 60 hp engines thats what - at an AVERAGE of 10 knots ( pretty damn quick average to me, but I am slooow) 250 hrs @ 5-8 litres an hour? two tonnes of fuel / 3 or 4 cubic metres in size...
Can any cat of manageable size (35-50 feet) carry this kind of load and still acheive the speeds we hear about?
be nice to hear from someone who has built and motor-cruised such a motorsailer over such distances.

I did not make any exact figures as each vessel will have its own distinct "mileage capabilities". It would be easier to figure these range & fuel usage capabilities in the strickly power mode, but even that varies significantly with the slenderness ratios of the hulls and the prop-size/engine RPMs utilized.

Here's an interesting report from Tara Vana, while delivering his newest 50-foot sportfishing sailing catamaran Tara Vana from her builder in Chile to her home in Bora Bora, Postma not only proved her fishing (and sailing) prowess, but also her ability to outperform a conventional sportfishing machine in one increasingly important aspect: effective range.

On one 900-mile leg of her 11,000-mile delivery voyage, Tara Vana covered the distance from Costa Rica to Acapulco, Mexico, in the same time frame as the 50-foot sportfisher Kelsey Lee. The sportfisher consumed 1800 gallons of fuel, averaged 8.5 knots and was unable to fish for much or the passage due to fuel bladders lining the cockpit, the weight of which contributed to the low average speed.

The 50-foot catamaran, traveling under diesel power alone thanks to a lack wind, covered the same distance on only 320 gallons of fuel at an average speed just under the Kelsey Lee’s — roughly 8 knots. Throughout the crossing Tara Vana was fished successfully, her decks unimpeded by extra fuel containers. With a little cooperating wind she could have covered the same distance even faster, using far less fuel.

Further comparison between the two boats is telling. They are virtually the same length, but with 27 feet of beam, Tara Vana features four staterooms, each with a queen-sized berth, and the catamaran’ s saloon alone encompasses more space than virtually the entire interior of the Kelsey Lee. The gear and tackle storage space on the cat is truly voluminous.

The initial voyage from Chile of roughly 3,700 miles was accomplished with the consumption of only 195 gallons of diesel fuel at an average speed of 6 knots, proving the vessel is very fuel efficient and promises great range. Tara Vana is equipped with twin 100hp diesels allowing for a power only speed of 15 knots

Now add in the sailing capability and the figures become very ellusive, "in light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder, and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone…… sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs.

Maybe somewhat repetitious, but here is my latest rewrite of the catamaran motorsailer concept as prepared for this years Miami show:


Motor/Sailing Catamaran Concept
(defining ‘the best boat to undertake a world cruise’)

I sincerely believe that a well conceived Motor/Sailer is the most practical, capable, comfortable, safe, economical vessel for serious ocean passagemaking......while retaining the ability to fully explore the most remote, and often shallow coastal regions of the water world.

Even in Beebe’s book,”Voyaging Under Power”, the bible of the power-only crowd, his vessel, “Passagemaker”, was a motorsailer, albeit smaller rigged than he really wanted. Many of the examples he offers as prime passagemakers are instead prime coastal cruisers, ‘semi-displacement’ hulls not optimized for long passages, but rather coastal cruising, where rapid transit is a primary requirement, while fuel use and surviving ultimate conditions are secondary considerations. ‘Trawlers’ today are gravitating toward these semi-planning hull configurations, and twin engines, as buyers become reluctant to accept slow 7-9 knot vessels. And forget wide appeal of primarily sail-powered vessels, particularly with our aging population, so how about those old versatile motorsailers.

We don’t hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics. Let’s modernize the motorsailer. The multihull planform holds great promise to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran vessel have proven real efficient to push under both power & sail.....not only efficient, but not limited to the traditional slow displacement/length hull-speeds. Just what the motorsailer needs....far less compromising increases in both sail and power performance, while maintaining an economy of operation that truly allows a sea-kindly, long-range capability.

Let’s explore a 40' example. Take the single 120-140 hp diesel used to push the conventional 40' single-hulled trawler or motorsailer to a maximum 8.3 knots hull speed and divide it into two smaller 60 hp diesels driving two long slender catamaran hulls. Voila!, maximum to 15 knots under power with the reliability of twin engines and the stability of a twin-hulled vessel. Add a modest sailing rig to these easily driven hulls, and you now have a passagemaker capable of cruising 12 knots under sail/ power compared with those older 7-knot boats. With 12 knots of speed at your command, you can really take advantage of 'weather windows' to: 1) make your passage as smooth as possible, 2) make some lengthy passages you might never have considered in a slower boat. This multihulled vessel will likely be slowed less by an obstructive seaway, and will accordingly make a passage at almost twice the average speed of the single-hulled vessel...twice the speed for the same total HP. There is an economy of operation here that cuts fuel requirements and bills, and greatly extends their range. In light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder, and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone……
.sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs.

The sea-kindliness of multihull craft is being rediscovered every day. Continual experiences with whale watching boats, fast ferries, pleasure, commercial, and military applications are all proving the validity of the multihull form. What many people forget about a good ride in a heavy sea is that it is very much a function of weight in addition to hull shape. More weight, more robust, more form resistance it offers to moving thru the ocean, the more the sea acts to resist the vessel's progress, and thus the more uncomfortable ride, and we must slow down. A big headsea is a particular challenge. Heavy boats carry their momentum into each trough and crest in a battle with the sea, while lighter weight vessels with slender hulls slice through with less battering. Per a sign at the Naval academy, “you can out-think the ocean, but you can’t out-slug the ocean.” Modern materials allow for lighter boats, and we must properly distribute the vessel's weight throughout long slender hulls. Following seas tend to pick up broad sterns and slew a vessel off to either side....broach. The catamaran hull does not require these broad sterns.

Storm survivability should be considered at the design stage for any vessel making offshore passages. Loss of power (clogged cooling or fuel filters, restricted air supply, water ingress, etc) often occurs at the most inopportune time (during a storm), and this can put the solely powered vessel at peril in short order. A vessel with a modest sailing rig could save your life, and that of vessel itself. Add a proper sea anchor installation, and I would challenge a hurricane. The catamaran planform was rated 'best in survivability' in huge breaking wave tests* carried out by Lock Crowther at the prestigious Univ of Southampton.

Most innovative item on my vessel, the mast-aft sailing rig, also referred to as a 'single-masted ketch'......a marriage between a cutter and a ketch without the mainsail. I have LOTS of data to support my contentions as to the aerodynamic superiority of this configuration.... But lets leave that theory out of the equation for our motorsailing application. The ketch rig is a good small-crew size rig, particularly where all three sails are roller furling!....even a novice could learn to operate this rig.....and she balances under a variety of sail deployments. Lower force centers add safety. Boats with moderate rig proportions tend to make faster overall passages because they are sailed at a higher level of capability than if they carry a lofty hi-performance rig. No big head-bashing booms, and simply wing/wing the headsails downwind. The sail rig contributes damping action to the rolling in a beam/quarter sea (no servo-fins needed), contributes to an unlimited range, and ultimately it will get you home if the engines fail. Ahhhh motorsailing!

Optional nacelle-mounted centerboard precludes any extra hull penetrations, and permits maintenance without hauling-out. 'Pointed' deckhouse shape conforms to apparent winds, significantly reducing drag. Flying control bridge & a crows-nest…what a hoot! Dedicated engine rooms, isolated from living spaces. Optional copper-nickel hull material below waterline is impact resistant and naturally antifouling for years.

Accomodations!! How might it appear as a real estate ad?, "Waterfront cottage, 4/5 bedrooms, three baths, large kitchen & dining area, big deck, wonderful views." Hard to beat a catamaran’s spaciousness and privacy....witness their current popularity in the market. Seamanlike layout... no vast open spaces.

My 65' Motor/Sailing catamaran is the embodiment of a Phil Rhodes' motorsailer design that has haunted me all these years. Only, this vessel is so much superior. Twin 100hp diesels will cruise her at 12/14knts. Under sail she could make 18/20kts. Range, unlimited. Fuel consumption, extremely low. She could skim over depths as little as 3.5'. Explore those rivers, mangroves, coves, lagoons. Beach the bows. Dive or fish the flats and the reefs from the Bahamas to the Pacific atolls.
THIS IS AN EXPEDITION PASSAGEMAKER!! , 20-25meters, no crew required

[Guillermo]

Please have a loook at http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailing.htm
I would like very much to receive comments, criticisms and collaborations.
Thanks in advance.
Guillermo Gefaell
Banjer 37 Motorsailer Club

[Skippy]

I still don't see why a motorsailer has to be different from a well-constructed sail-only cruiser with bigger fuel tanks. There's no law that says you have to go faster under power than under sail, and anyway, you get better mileage if you stay well below hull speed. Just start the engine on calm days, and sail the rest of the time.

[brian eiland]

Thought I would make this thread group aware of some related subject matter at posting, "Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4499)"

Within this thread you might find Mr Leask's comments of interest, "A Liveaboard Cruiser for the Real World (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=35945&postcount=27)"

[Guillermo]

"I still don't see why a motorsailer has to be different from a well-constructed sail-only cruiser with bigger fuel tanks. There's no law that says you have to go faster under power than under sail, and anyway, you get better mileage if you stay well below hull speed. Just start the engine on calm days, and sail the rest of the time".

I think we should discrimine between "Motorsailing" and "Motorsailers". Every sailing boat with an engine can motorsail, for sure, but not all of them can qualify as motorsailers, in my opinion. Not even boats designed to be efficient under sail, but having powerful engines can be described as motorsailers. See what Bob Leaks says at "A LIVEABOARD CRUISER FOR THE REAL WORLD (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=35945&postcount=27)"


"The reason for that is that the average sailing auxiliary yacht built these days is abysmally inefficient for motoring. Too small propellers, badly designed propeller apertures, high rpm engines that are inefficient at low speeds, and wasteful heat exchanger/wet exhaust systems are to blame. All of those things are done for the sake of incremental improvements in sailing performance. Fuel efficiency is simply not part of the equation in the design of modern crusing boats."


My main interest is to discuss about what should be defined as a proper motorsailer. My personal feeling is drifting on the side of "classic" motorsailers, particularly pilothouse motorsailers, with no disrecpect for other conceptions, absolutely. It's only that I feel more comfortable with monohulls than with multihulls, as well as I don't like very much speeds in excess of hull's at sea, as I find we have a bit enough of an speedy way of life on land.

So, my idea of a proper motorsailer is a motoring-bred sailing boat conceived to have a hull-lines/engine/gear/propeller combination as to efficiently attain hull speed when motoring (with a + for headwind beating), and the addition of enough sail area as to to easily clawing off a lee shore and going up to nearly hull speed in a Force 4 breeze. As I see things, no more than an SA/D ratio of 14.

.....I had no notice about these threads about motorsailers at boatdesign.net forums. I'm delighted. Lot's of things to read and learn next weeks.
I agree with Brian that maybe I should have post all this this at the "Munohulls versus Multihulls" thread. Mañana!
Guillermo.

[FAST FRED]

In the "old days" the Motor Sailor compromise was a 50/50 , where the cruiser would have a large slow turning engine and large efficent prop, and tiny rig.

As ghosting was never contemplated the rig was small and could only drive the boat near hull speed in a 20K breeze.

Today the 90/90 can be done. The huge heavy engine is no longer needed as lightweights run many thousands of hours , with low fuel consumption & low noise levels.
The controllable variable pitch prop can be feathered so there is no huge speed brake holding the boat back under sail 24/7.

The use of fully battened main and roller furled headsails allow full canvas , and only windward performance suffers from the roller sail.

The latest roller sails turn on a fancy ROPE in the luff , so the sail can be lowered and easily stowed when a different shape (storm? Ghoster?) sail is needed.

"Roller reefing" and "Military Intelligence" are oxymorons.

A 90/90 is only burdened by the weight of the engine & shaft , batts ect while under sail.
And only burdened by the windage of the rig , weight of the mast and ballast (if leadslead) while underway.

Herrishoff Marco Polo is a great example of an early boat that could cruise effortlessly at 10K. If done today with modern materials (and interior & hull design) would be a very efficent boat.

Internal passave anti roll tank could stop much of the roll underway , and be totally fillable for more FW in coastal work.With bilge keels she would be easy to ground , and should stand upright on the hard, and should get rid of more of the roll underway.

Unfortunatly in most of the world folks pay for slips by the foot of LOA , so savings on fuel while passagemaking would be eaten by the dock fees.

Big advantage to the lead slead over the multihull (besides capsizing problems) is the monohulls ability to accept overloading with grace.

An extra 2 tons of food and cruising stuff (dink outboard Scuba booze the list is endless) would not be unsafe (just a bit slower)in the monohull , but could be a DISASTER for a multihull.

FAST FRED

[sharpii2]

I would like to add my own $0.02.

I read Mr. Leask's post and must say I agree. Its best to travel at sub hull speed if decent range as well as fuel economy is what you're after. In my project boat (The Landing School, '89-'90) It had a small engine, A big feathering propeller, and a gaff cutter rig. the engine was for calms and near calms only and was expected to push the 27ft WL boat at only 4kts. The rig was to be simple and sturdy for it, not the engine, was going to keep you off the beach when things got 'exciting'.

The goal was to use only 1hp per ton much the way the early 20th century ocean liners were designed to do (The Olympic class). This way, my 6 ton boat would use only 1/3rd gallon of diesel per hour (I hope) and would average 12nm per gallon.

The SD of 14.5 was to provide most of the propulsion. In winds of 7kts or more it would do useful work.

During that time, the engine would be off.

To make this work, I specified a feathering propeller which, in my mind, is the greatest invention for sail boats since dacron.

The steel boat was designed to be cylindricly developed and built to work boat, not yacht, standards in both strength and appearance.

It was to be my home afloat and to knock about odd corners of the world.

The goal was never to get there fast, but to get there reliably.

Well. Thats my $0.02 worth.

Bob

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I hate to get sidetracked from my sidetracking...

Have a look at my doodles...

I like to go as small as possible... :)

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2005/size/big/sort/1/cat/500 - there are others but they seem to shuffle by hit counts...

SH.

[trimix]

I would like to have you opinions about these designs as motorsailers

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail6.php

Thanks

[Guillermo]

I like very much your designs, Paul. They are just in the line I think proper motorsailers should be nowadays. Please have a look at my page about motorsailers and motorsailing at: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailing.htm
I've used some info from your boats there and posted links to your web pages.
I'd appreciate your comments on my page.
Regards,
Guillermo.

[trimix]

Guillermo,

Do you know an European designer able to draw a Banjer 37 replica ? Or who already have a replica in his stock plans ?

[FAST FRED]

With the canoe stern the Banjer is NOT a candidate for a modern speedy cruiser.

Fun to look at but doubble enders take far more power to get speed from as the stern squats fast , slowing the transit speeds considerably.

A "tug" style sten that is rounded , so you can spring off pilings etc , is really handy on a distance cruiser , and does not need to slow the boat as the double ender stern does.

FAST FRED

[trimix]

I've something which looks like a Banjer but not perfectly ... See these Bruce Roberts designs S370 B, C, D and Trawler versions !

http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/S370.htm

Nice isn't it ! But Bruce don't consider them as motorsailer Guilermo could you advice ? DO you think is is possible to transform it as a motorsailer by adding a bigger engine for example ?

[trimix]

I've a reply from Bruce. Spray 370 can be transform as a great motorsailer.

You just have to increase engine power about 4HP for 1000 lbs displacement is a good estimation for him...

Is Banjer 370 have a son ? Maybe Spray 370 !

What's Banjer fans think about ?

Trim

[Guillermo]

Answering FAST FRED:
I know Banjers are not speedy cruisers, nor they pretend to be. They are heavy weight - european style motorsailers, so...
But even with the full displacement hull and canoe stern, they sail reasonably well under sail alone (transoceanique versions, with an SA/D around 14) and they motor quite well with a 61 HP engine, having a top speed in excess of 8 nots and a fuel-efficient speed of 6 knots, wich relates with a Froude's number of 1.03, using around one gallon per hour.
Very nice for long trips, specially taking in account actual and foreseeable fuel prices!
Answering TRIMIX: I do not see SPRAY 37 as being derived from Banjers, as she has totatlly different hull lines, with hard chines and flat stern.

[mackid068]

Bruckmann 50' Motorsailor, that's all I can say about the enclosure. 9kts sail, 11kts power (something of that nature). Search google.

[Guillermo]

I've a reply from Bruce. Spray 370 can be transform as a great motorsailer.

You just have to increase engine power about 4HP for 1000 lbs displacement is a good estimation for him...

Is Banjer 370 have a son ? Maybe Spray 370 !

What's Banjer fans think about ?

Trim

I find 4 HP per 1000 lbs quite a high figure for full displacement motorsailers.
I think that something between 2 to 2.25 is good enough, providing an engine with a rated power such that a fuel-efficient speed can be reached using around 60% of it, and having extra muscles for when things get rough.

[brian eiland]

...big snippet...
My main interest is to discuss about what should be defined as a proper motorsailer. My personal feeling is drifting on the side of "classic" motorsailers, particularly pilothouse motorsailers, with no disrecpect for other conceptions, absolutely. It's only that I feel more comfortable with monohulls than with multihulls, as well as I don't like very much speeds in excess of hull's at sea, as I find we have a bit enough of an speedy way of life on land.

So, my idea of a proper motorsailer is a motoring-bred sailing boat conceived to have a hull-lines/engine/gear/propeller combination as to efficiently attain hull speed when motoring (with a + for headwind beating), and the addition of enough sail area as to to easily clawing off a lee shore and going up to nearly hull speed in a Force 4 breeze. As I see things, no more than an SA/D ratio of 14.

.....I had no notice about these threads about motorsailers at boatdesign.net forums. I'm delighted. Lot's of things to read and learn next weeks.
I agree with Brian that maybe I should have post all this this at the "Munohulls versus Multihulls" thread. Mañana!
Guillermo.
You might have a look at this posting on another similar thread concerning monohull motor sailers http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=46397&postcount=79
This thread leads to a pretty good article by Greg Jones of BlueWater Sailing about defining monohull motor sailors, http://www.bwsailing.com/01articles/issue/0405/bwb.htm

[FAST FRED]

" and they motor quite well with a 61 HP engine, having a top speed in excess of 8 nots and a fuel-efficient speed of 6 knots, wich relates with a Froude's number of 1.03, using around one gallon per hour."

A fuel consumption of a gal an hour is about 17 to 20hp, to use a 61hp engine for the rare 8K dash , and then run it most of its life at 1/3 or less the rated hp does NOT make for long & happy engine life.

A 30hp engine would be half the weight and live loads longer with a more realistic 60% loading.

Yes the # of 1.03 is realistic speed for a canoe stern , but a similar heavy (by todays stds) boat with a transom should be able to see # 1.20 , a considerable difference after a weeks motoring.

FAST FRED

[Guillermo]

" and they motor quite well with a 61 HP engine, having a top speed in excess of 8 nots and a fuel-efficient speed of 6 knots, wich relates with a Froude's number of 1.03, using around one gallon per hour."

A fuel consumption of a gal an hour is about 17 to 20hp, to use a 61hp engine for the rare 8K dash , and then run it most of its life at 1/3 or less the rated hp does NOT make for long & happy engine life.

A 30hp engine would be half the weight and live loads longer with a more realistic 60% loading.

Yes the # of 1.03 is realistic speed for a canoe stern , but a similar heavy (by todays stds) boat with a transom should be able to see # 1.20 , a considerable difference after a weeks motoring.

FAST FRED

Sorry, Fast Fred, you're right: I made a mistake.
I motor at around 6 knots (calm seas) with my Banjer on long trips. Consumption is around 2 gall/hour, not one.
My Banjer's Perkins 4236 is 34 years old, has more than 10.000 hours on his shoulders, no overhauls, and still running like a darling. Good enough to me :-)

[mackid068]

Let's define a motorsailer! I vote for: A waterbound vessel capable of powering via sail or motor as a 200% capable boat, with both types of power usable as the primary power source.

[Guillermo]

Here you have my definition for monohull motorsailers:

"Motorsailers should be, in my opinion, hybrids among sailing boats and motor boats, with amplier volumes than those of a pure sailing boat (And to my taste with a nice pilothouse!) to make them more livable and able to carry a generous cargo; have manegeable sails but able to easily develope hull speed under sail alone; have a propeller-engine combination allowing for a fuel efficient motoring and with power enough to reach hull speed, as well as some extra muscle to beat dead to winward in a storm (force 10) in protected waters.
This means, to me, an SA/D ratio from 13 to 15 and a HP/(D/1000) ratio from 2 to 2.5 (Imperial units)
D/Lwl ratio may go from 250 for lighter ones as in many modern designs bred in sailing boats, up to 450 for heavy-weigths long keelers bred in fishing boats"

[Mikey]

Many sailing boats of today are overpowered, but I would still say that a HP/(D/1000) ratio of 2 - 2.5 is a bit too low for a proper motor sailor.

That would give a 45,000 lb 50 footer a 90 to 112.5 hp engine. 90 HP is more than enough for normal motoring but not quite enough to safely get out from a dangerous shore in force 10 winds.

I would go for a bit more, 2.5 - 3 => 112.5 to 135 HP, enough also for not protected waters. Opinions?

Mikey

[mackid068]

Hm, maybe 4 hp/ton or is that reaching?

[marshmat]

I wouldn't think so... with old finicky diesels that might be too much for normal cruising, but modern engines work just fine at low speed (and more efficiently than a smaller engine at high speed). If your engine's flexible enough to handle the wide power range you need, I'd much rather have the extra power for when I need it....

[mackid068]

so 3hp/ton is good?

[asathor]

How about 3.478915

You really should go sailing instead of worrying about such numbers.

Just keep in mind that you need 3.14 times the power required to obtain hull speed when going to winward in a blow - Leonardo Da Vinchi actually noticed this during a heated conversation with the pope.

[FAST FRED]

The problem of only having enough power to motor efficently in a calm ,
VS the huge ( 3x+)amount of power needed to buck a high wind is NOT an easy one to solve.

The usual setup where the engine is set to run full power at full RPM stinks royally at efficency when used at low cruising speeds , or worse when the vessel is getting a sail assist.

The engine will usually respond to this severe underloading with "wet stacking" , where unburned fuel (too light load) blows by the rings which do not have enough operating pressure from combustion to seal properly.
The cylinders will be burnished and loose their oil retaining ability , so wear out even faster. The lube oil will be contaminated with blow by , the acids produced raise heck with the bearings. UGH!

Traditional M/S would use a variable pitch prop , oversized diameter (cruising setup) that with normal pitch would never be able to pull the mfg recomended full throttle RPM.

However at low engine speeds the extra prop diameter was great at absorbing a higher amount of engine power , so the engine would last longer.

In a gale the engine would be run at higher RPM with much of the pitch taken out , which allowed the RPM and more closly matched the slower speed made good by the vessel.

The better solution would be a multi speed transmission , which is fairly easy to engineer.

Most LARGE truck trannys are built for cont. operation in any gear and at the low power required for a moderate sized vessel 35 to 70 ft , would only be operating at a fraction of the power a modern truck (350 to 500HP) produces.

The variable pitch props come with thrust bearings built in (Hundstatt) so hookup would be quite easy, and the engine could be very soft mounted for maximum quiet and vibration controll.

10th, .82, 9th, 1.00, 8th, 1.26, 7th, 1.59, 6th, 2.00,/// 5th, 2.57, 4th, 3.14, 3th, 3.95, 2nd, 4.98 and 1st, 6.27. Low R, around 6.27, High R, around 2.00 to one

Depending on how light the M/S is and how much sail assist , the ratios from 7th to 3rd would look promising for light and heavy weather, as well as light and heavy fuel tanks.

The only "extra" expense would be for a REQUIRED exhaust temp gage (EGT) a hunderd bucks or so to keep the engine operating with out any overload.

Bigger diesel truck engines are easy to marinize , simply requires either a wet exhaust manifold , or loads of insulation for the engine room lead to a prefered dry stack.

With a modern 3 stage injection the computer could maximize the economy , and overload would be impossable .
But there would be no way to "get Home" after a lightning strike , so the older noiser less efficent mechanical injection might be a better offshore cruiser.

FAST FRED

[Vega]

FastFred said:
"Traditional M/S would use a variable pitch prop , oversized diameter (cruising setup) that with normal pitch would never be able to pull the mfg recomended full throttle RPM".





If you can change the prop. pitch I don't see the problem. Looks to me that the effect would be close to the one produced by a a multi speed transmission.

[Guillermo]

....But there would be no way to "get Home" after a lightning strike , so the older noiser less efficent mechanical injection might be a better offshore cruiser.

FAST FRED


Keeping things simple, reliable and easy to maintain seems to me a basic requirement in pleasure boating when cruising around.
(I'm talking about the average short handed cruiser, not the chartering or the luxury segments)
I do not have experience with modern trucks diesel engines and their sofisticated reduction system, but maybe it will add an extra complication to something that should be as simple and reliable as possible in a boat: the mechanical propulsion system.
So, for an all around proper motorsailer, I vote for a medium revs diesel engine, rated as to its power come into in the 2 to 2.5 HP/D factor range I mentioned before, mechanical injection, hydraulic reduction gear and an effective 3 blades fixed propeller or Autoprop type.
Answering Mikey, in Thailand: To clew off a lee shore with formed seas we'd rather be motorsailing, not only motoring (except when a rig failure, of course). So I think we do not not need more engine power for that. I find that going up to 3 in the ratio, or even more, is more related with semi-displacement hulls with flatter stern sections, designed rather for short waters hopping in mind.
Guillermo.

[mackid068]

Does anyone here think that an aft pilothouse is nice?

[FAST FRED]

Nice or not its the prefered place if the boat will cruise and stay on her own anchor gear for long periods.

The foward houses make for very "nervous" boats at anchor , that frequently need multiple anchors to keep steady in most winds.

Most Fish boats tie up to the dock , in port , an advantage not usually open to the wandering cruiser.

The feathers are on the BACK of the arrow (or weathervane) for a reason.

FAST FRED

[Vega]

mackid068 :

"Does anyone here think that an aft pilothouse is nice?"


I like this one:


http://www.morrisyachts.com/photos_my51.html

[brian eiland]

mackid068 ....an aft pilothouse is nice?"
I like this one:
http://www.morrisyachts.com/photos_my51.html

I'll agree with you there. Or how about this one:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2049

....image located under another thread, "Perfect Cruising Boat" (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5574)

[Vega]

Yes, there are new boats...I would say the new breed of motorsailors that are not fat anymore, even the small ones. Look at this 39ft. Not close to the Morris in beauty, but not ugly...and that one I can afford it (probably).

http://www.siltala.fi/385prelim/3853-d.jpg

[mackid068]

I, myself, especially for motor trawlers, am a big fan of aftpilothouses.

[cyclops]

Fast Fred. Is a E G T meter as good at telling you the load on a engine as a vacuum guage? GM still specifies full rated output of their industrial engines @ 1" of vacuum @ specified rpm.

[FAST FRED]

A vacume gage doesn't WORK on a diesel engine.
If there is a 1" spec for full throttle full load , thats just to be sure there are NO restrictions in the intake.

The only EZ way to monitor how hard its running is with the EGT gage.

Ship diesels can actually measure the firing pressure in each cylinder and set the injectors to balance , but each piston on these is as large as a small bus.

For a cruiser with the usual 35 to 500hp engine , EGT is it.

FAST FRED

[Guillermo]

PROPOSED (ALL BOATS) NEW LABELING SYSTEM:


M 14/14

First figure relates to the SA/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the sailing power, and
Second figure relates to the 6*HP/D ratio (to the closest integer), so to the motoring power.

Letter is related to the D/L ratio, as follows:
VL = Very low D/L ratio, under 100
L= Low D/L, from 100 to 200
M = Medium D/L, from 200 to 300
H = High D/L, from 300 to 400
VH = Very Heavy D/L, 400+

- If ratio in label is greater than one, the boat is sailing oriented. If less than one, motoring oriented.

- If first figure is 14+ the boat has plenty of power under sails alone. Lower than 10 seems too low sails power to me for a motorsailer: The boat should rather be considered a "sail assisted motor boat". Higher than 16 the boat should probably be better classificated as a pure sailing boat, with more or less engine power.

- Second figure being over 18 usually means quite an excess of engine power, in my opinion. For an efficient motorsailer, it should be around 14, let's say from 12 to 16.

- What are called 50/50 motorsailers by the "century" rule, become 14/14 (more or less) under this labeling system.

For samples with various motorsailers, please visit: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailers.htm

The benefit of this labeling system, against the "century" formula is that saying that a boat is a 50/50 motorsailer says nothing about the real sail and engine power of the boat, nor if she's light or heavy, while this new label I propose really does.

Now we can even add some letters at the end, to better explain the intended design (Or marketing!) concept, as MS for Motorsailers, PH for Pilot House, RS for raised saloon, OC for ocean cruiser, etc, etc (and even a letter for the number of hulls, if necessary). So, if we read something like M16/12 RS-OC, we can understand the boat is a "medium weight, sail oriented, raised saloon ocean cruiser" most probably with a good performance under sail and with an engine allowing for economic motoring passages but having yet enough power reserve to beat to winward in a gale.

Guillermo.

[Greenseas2]

Before deciding on a motorsailer, read Voyaging Under Power by Bob Bebbe and pay especiall close attention to the 4 formulas that determine boat speed and range. Some very small changes in your S/L speed can double your range. Also just saw a recommeded 41 foot design that was set up nice, but motorsailers such as Colvic Watson, Swin, Hardy and Albin have already squeased all of the stuff on the 41 foot down to 26 ft., 25 ft., 23 ft and 22 ft in very liveable, affordable and maintainable configurations. Being American, I hate to say that the designers in the US go overboard in creating boats with too much space that can't be used for anything else except too much space.

[Vega]

pay especiall close attention to the 4 formulas that determine boat speed and range. Some very small changes in your S/L speed can double your range. .

Can you be a bit more specific and outline those 4 formulas? I really don't know what you are talking about...but it sounds interesting.

[Guillermo]

My pages at: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailers.htm
have now been changed to: http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/motorsailers/

[Vega]

Guillermo, I was checking your new site and I have seen that you have not there the "Puffin"...shame on you. I am kidding it is a nice collection, but the Puffin deserves a place there, not to mention "The little Zaca". This one is really one of my favorites, even if it is not properly a typical Motorsailor.

Take a look at the interior design and set up of both boats. They are very good.

http://www.de-gier.nl/

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Paulo. I'll add Puffin tonight to the list. Nice boat, quite similar to the Noordkapper.
All the best.

[Guillermo]

Paulo,
I've been reviewing calmly the Puffins, and I think that, although beatiful (I love the style) and with enough engine power, they are not pilothouse motorsailers, as they are not conceived with an inside steering position in mind (have a close look: even the deckhouse's front windows are pretty small). They are rather sailing boats with deck saloons, or the like. So I will not post them at the M&M pages, for the time being.

[Vega]

Paulo,
I've been reviewing calmly the Puffins, and I think that, although beatiful (I love the style) and with enough engine power, they are not pilothouse motorsailers, as they are not conceived with an inside steering position in mind .

These are semi-custom boats and if you want a real wheel, they will probably give you one, but nowadays, in relatively small boats, a joystick for the interior steering makes a lot of sense, at least for me and I guess also for the Puffin owners and to Olivier F. van Meer, the Puffin's Architect.

[Guillermo]

OK, Paulo, I admit it! If they have a interior steering and navigating position, then they are proper pilothouse motorsailers to me! I'll add them to the list.:)
Cheers.

[Greenseas2]

In response to a prior question on the most important formulas for designing or buying a motorsailer, here they are"
1. D/L Displacement /Length ratio
2. S/L Speed to length ratio
3. Above water area/Below water area
4. Prismatic coefficient.
For getting the most range from any motorsailer, use the S/L formula. This is where small power adjustment mean large gains in range.
The formulas are easily looked up and should greatly enhance your knowledge when building or buying a long range motorsailer.
Other evaluations should also be made of fuel and water capacities. There's nothing more pathetic than a boat advertisement that says"sleeps 4", "water 10 gallons", or "fuel 15 gallons"......dock queens.

[Vega]

Guillermo, you are a nice guy...you deserve another. This one even has a real interior wheel:p :p :p
http://www.holtermanyachting.nl/yachten/holterman/46/fisher/index.php

[Greenseas2]

Sean,
I agree with you on smaller. I currently have an S2 center cockpit that we are selling. I've decided that the Colvic Watson 23.5 foot motorsailer is probably the next boat. There's only one ad that shows both people and boat to get a proper perspective. The ad is in Topsail.co.UK and is interest because it shows just how small, yet big, the CW 23.5 is. Scaling back from 47' to 23.5 feet insures continued sailing in that I'm 68. Also a licensed master with over 3,000 certified days logged.
Another slightly small motorsailer to look at is the Swin 22 on Yachtworld.com. It has everything needed for long distance cruising.

[Guillermo]

Guillermo, you are a nice guy...
Sometimes...;)
Thanks for the link to the Holterman 46 page. I knew this boat but I thought it was a Fisher 46 with another name. Aren't they almost exactly the same....?

[Guillermo]

Vega:
Puffin & Little Zaca Yachts do not commercialize those two as motorsailers, but they do it for these two:
http://www.de-gier.nl/createsite/prod/createprod.asp?b_id=6158&page=1&rs_prod_id=3226
http://www.de-gier.nl/createsite/prod/createprod.asp?b_id=6158&page=1&rs_prod_id=3228
Cheers

[Guillermo]

...Another slightly small motorsailer to look at is the Swin 22 ...
Thanks for the tip on the Swin 22, Greenseas2. I didn't knew it.

[Guillermo]

Before deciding on a motorsailer, read Voyaging Under Power by Bob Bebbe and pay especiall close attention to the 4 formulas that determine boat speed and range..
Robert Beebe's excellent book is rather on passagemaking motor boats than on motorsailers. Even his boat 'Passagemaker' should rather be considered as a motor boat with auxiliary sails than a motorsailer.
Designing of a motorsailer has to take also into account the SA/D and the HP/D ratios (among many other things), on top of the ones you mention in your further post which are of general use for motor boats too.

[FAST FRED]

"Robert Beebe's excellent book is rather on passagemaking motor boats than on motorsailers. Even his boat 'Passagemaker' should rather be considered as a motor boat with auxiliary sails than a motorsailer."

No question about Bebee's boat being a mostly motorboat , but the ability to rig sails (for get home) would be a huge advantage , even if the boat can't beat into a F-8 breeze.

The usual paravane / flopper stopper needed for stability on a motor boat needs a mast of some sort at about 28% of the lwl from aft.

That would mean a schooner arangement where the aft mast is the strongest. best rigged.

A foward mast in a tabernakle could complete a handy "sail when its advantageous" rig , that should work OK as a get home .

If a hull is sweat the amount of sail required for basic propulsion is mighty small. Motor Boxes are the bummer.

FAST FRED

[brian eiland]

In a little piece of literature I handed out at the Miami show last year, not this, I had written;
"Even in Beebe’s book,'Voyaging Under Power', the bible of the power-only crowd, his vessel, 'Passagemaker', was a motorsailer, albeit smaller rigged than he really wanted. Many of the examples he offers as prime passagemakers are instead prime coastal cruisers, ‘semi-displacement’ hulls not optimized for long passages, but rather coastal cruising, where rapid transit is a primary requirement, while fuel use and surviving ultimate conditions are secondary considerations. ‘Trawlers’ today are gravitating toward these semi-planning hull configurations, and twin engines, as buyers become reluctant to accept slow 7-9 knot vessels. We don’t hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics....."

On another note, back a few postings earlier...
These are semi-custom boats and if you want a real wheel, they will probably give you one, but nowadays, in relatively small boats, a joystick for the interior steering makes a lot of sense, at least for me and I guess also for the Puffin owners and to Olivier F. van Meer, the Puffin's Architect.
OK, Paulo, I admit it! If they have a interior steering and navigating position, then they are proper pilothouse motorsailers to me! I'll add them to the list.
Cheers.
Vega:
Puffin & Little Zaca Yachts do not commercialize those two as motorsailers
I agree, they are very nice looking vessels, and I think surely could be called motorsailers to a degree. Glad you included them Guillermo

[Mayfly]

Which than will be worth the money plan for a motorsailer? Economically to build and comfortable and compact, able to adpat to sea and river enviroment still have room for 2 friends.

[Vega]

We don’t hear much of motorsailers these days....not a popular subject. The old traditional, stoutly-built vessels, with a hefty engine(s), were necessarily compromised in both their sailing and powering statistics....."

On another note, back a few postings earlier...
I agree, they are very nice looking vessels, and I think surely could be called motorsailers to a degree. Glad you included them Guillermo

I guess it all has to do with what the market calls today a motor-sailor and that is not necessarily the same thing that I or Guillermo or you would call a motor sailor. I mean it is the market (and the users) that decide what type of boat they would call a motorsailor.

I am kind of boat magazines addict (I read regularly boat mags from 5 or 6 different countries). I have found that there is a consistent change in what the boat testers and specialized magazines call Motorsailors.

What they call now motorsailors are what 20 years ago they would call passagemakers. Normally they call motorsailor to any sturdy oceangoing raised saloon with a motor big enough to stand against a gale, even if those boats are also good sailing boats and have not an interior wheel.

Old style motorsailors are almost dead, I mean, they almost don't sell, but there is now a surge of interest in what they call now "motorsailors", boats like the Nordships, the new Nauticats or the Reginas.

Funny thing is that those builders don’t call their boats motorsailors (almost like the word has bad connotations) it is the specialized press that call them motorsailors.

[brian eiland]

What they call now motorsailors are what 20 years ago they would call passagemakers. Normally they call motorsailor to any sturdy oceangoing raised saloon with a motor big enough to stand against a gale, even if those boats are also good sailing boats and have not an interior wheel.

Funny thing is that those builders don’t call their boats motorsailors (almost like the word has bad connotations) it is the specialized press that call them motorsailors.
I think you captured the essence of it Vega, the old term just isn't acceptable to the market....shame, as it distinguishes those trawler style passagemakers from the motor/sail ones.

[Guillermo]

MOTORSAILERS' DEFINITIONS (MONOHULLS)


Here you have my actual thoughts and definitions on Motorsailers.


General definition:
"Motorsailers should be, in my opinion, hybrids among sailing boats and motor boats, having amplier volumes than those of a pure sailing boat, as well as a nice pilothouse conceived to steer and navigate (so not being being only a deck or raised saloon) to make them more livable in all kind of weathers; able to carry a generous cargo; have manegeable sails with a short crew (without the needing of very expensive hardware), but able to easily pull the boat as to develope hull speed under sail alone in a moderate breeze (force 4); have a propeller-engine combination allowing for a fuel efficient motoring and having power enough to at least reach hull speed under engine alone, as well as extra muscle to beat dead to winward in a force 10 storm in protected waters".


We have two big classes, depending on the intended use:


Ocean going (globetrotters) motorsailers:
They use to have an SA/D ratio from 13 to 15+ and a HP/(D/1000) ratio around 2 (from now on we'll call this ratio just HP/D). D/Lwl ratio may go from 250 for lighter ones as in designs bred in sailing boats, up to 400+ for old-style heavy-weigths, bred in fishing boats. Fuel tankage should be enough, at least, for around 900-1000 miles under engine alone at 1.1 Froude's. Low pilothouse profile, as to allow for structure and windows being capable of resist capsizing and green sea slamming. Relatively high wetted surface for better seamanship. CE Design Category: A


Coastal motorsailers:
These tend to be lighter nowadays and with more powerful engines, although traditional heavy-weights are also here in their own. Fuel tankage is shorter, tipically allowing for 300-400 miles passages. CE Design Category: B or A
Two actual trends:
Northern: Boats designed to usually sail in colder climates and stronger weather. D/Lwl ratio going from 250 to 350 (oldies use to be in the 400+ region), SA/D from 13 to 16 and,and HP/D ratio from 2 to 3 (I consider these boats as being all around short-seas motorsailers, if design category is A).
Southern: Boats rather designed with good-weather islands hopping in mind. D/Lwl in the 200-250 range, very variable SA/D ratio, going from 12-13 up to the 17-18 range, and having an HP/D ratio definitively much higher than 3, some of them going as high as 7 (!) with totally flat sections at the sterns. Fuel hungry boats. Raised deck-saloons rather than pilothouses, in some cases integrated with the cockpit (Be careful: Extreme designs may not even comply with CE design category B!)

[Greenseas2]

We've started investigating shipping costs and methods for motorsailers currently in the UK to be shipped to the US. It appears that all of the worthwhile and seaworthy motorsailers that can be bought for reasonable prices are in the Europe. Anyone who wants to pitch in with this effort is welcome.

[DanishBagger]

I tend to bump into people constantly that go "isn't it a motor sailer!? But it has a motor, doesn't it?".

LOL, sorry, but that's the level people in general are at.

[Greenseas2]

I agree with you 100% on the specifications. Motorsailers are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, hybrids. I really don't believe that most motorsailers built in the US are either deep sea or coastwise. Most of the ones like Cape Dory, Nimble and others of the type, would be in deep trouble in even modest storm conditions mainly due to large expanses of glass with no window storm shields available. Also there are no bridge deck and if the cocpit flooded, the entire boat would flood. In order to be a good motorsailer with good storm surviavl design, there has to be a lot of passagemaker charteristics included such as high bridge deck and window storm panels.

[Ari]

http://www.kastenmarine.com/kapal_layar_mesin.htm

Have a looks at this link..nice motor sailor

[Guillermo]

Nice Phinisi, Ari. Those boats are probably the biggest wooden boats actively build in the world.

[Greenseas2]

You hit on an interesting subject by suggesting joy stick steering in motorsailers. I driven many commercial vesels iwth joy stick steering and it's great; however, if you lose hydraulics, you lose steering. It happened to me coming across the Gulf of Mexico with a tow boat 5 decks high. The solutioon was to make a Spanish windlass to straighten and hold the rudders while keeping coutrse by using the engines. It might cause some pucker factor in a single engine boat. On my S2, I have a paddle from a rowing shell tied to the mast in the even that I lose the rudder. It can be tied to the aft verticle rail support and used to steer enough to get you home. I still like the joy stick idea, it's better than a wheel on many counts.

[Vega]

The joystick is connected to a good autopilot. If the thing breaks, you just have to go outside and take the wheel. Besides, I prefer a mechanical steering system, another good reason not to have a second wheel inside, because that way the all system would have to be hydraulic.

[FAST FRED]

I prefer a mechanical steering system, another good reason not to have a second wheel inside, because that way the all system would have to be hydraulic.

Actually the old pull pull cables with chain around the wheel sproket can easily be set up for 2 steering stations , with an autopilot too.

The push pull cables are also avilable for 2 helm positions +AP but are more complex.

Hydraulic is cheap to install, plastic push on tubing a mfg delight , but not as reliable or as usefull as pull pull.

The really usefull part of cable steering is the wheel comes back to the SAME position every time the rudder is centered.

This allows dumb autopilots or mechanical self steering .
And "feel" for how hard the rudder is working , unavilable with all hyd systems.

FAST FRED

[Vega]

The push pull cables are also available for 2 helm positions +AP but are more complex.
Hydraulic is cheap to install, plastic push on tubing a mfg delight , but not as reliable or as usefull as pull pull.


FAST FRED

"Feeling" and pleasure at the wheel, (not to mention reliability) is the reason I prefer mechanical steering systems.

I have never tried (or have seen) a 2 helm positions with a mechanical steering system, but I guess that it will be less precise than a single wheel system.

I also don't know any production boat that has one installed. Can you give me an example of one? I would like to take a look at that system, and try it.

[Greenseas2]

On tugs we use muliple steering stations that have hydraulic steering systems and use Joy sticks. The nice part of the design is that you can parallel the stations. One position is used for normal navigation, another is stern facing to pull in the catenary and barge with the winch controls colocated at that station. The third is on the main deck forward. Combine this with two sets of flanking rudder controls, thruster controls and two sets of throttles and maneuvering can get intereting at times. Same on small passenger frieghters that we've run.

[SeaSpark]

The choice for a hydraulic system gives you flexibility on the position of steering systems. Reliable integration of an autopilot is easier with hydraulics.

I like the combination of a gimballed steering chair with joystick control on arm rest.

Since we are talking about a motor sailer here steering "feel" could be considered less important.

When things go wrong an emergency tiller could provide backup steering on a boat this size. You can also use the tiller when in a sporty mood and want some feel on the helm.

[Vega]

The choice for a hydraulic system gives you flexibility on the position of steering systems. Reliable integration of an autopilot is easier with hydraulics.

Since we are talking about a motor sailer here steering "feel" could be considered less important.
.

If you chose to have 2 wheels I agree about the integration (the joystick could be linked to the autopilot - Raymarine has a dedicated system). I agree also that the "feeling is not very important in an old style Motor-sailor (heavy ones with a limited sailing capacity). But, if we are talking about the new breed of motorsailors (see posts 82 and 83 of this thread), feeling is as important as in a traditional sailing boat. Some of those boats are very good sailing boats and capable of giving a lot of sailing pleasure (and also capable of motoring through a gale).

That’s the ones I am interested in. So, for me the steering feeling is a big part of the sailing pleasure (I have tried some sailing boats with hydraulic steering and I have hated the lack of "feeling") that’s why I prefer mechanical steering.

[SeaSpark]

Here a picture of my 50ft fast cruiser design.

A modern motor sailer?

It has a gimballed steering chair with joystick control on arm rest under the pilothouse.

It also features a permanent tiller in the cockpit. I want the rudder to be retractable and am thinking about making it rotatable (only a few degrees) in the vertical plane to adjust balance. This would enable me to "tune" the balance of the rudder for hand steering or autopilot/joystick steering. Know this sounds as a complex construction.... it is. That is why i have not made op my mind yet.

This design is still under development.

[Greenseas2]

How about a couple of horizontal trim tabs that can be hydraulically adjusted on the rudder for balance? That's one good looking motorsailer.

[SeaSpark]

I want to balance the rudder to adjust pressure on tiller/hydraulics.

[Vega]

I like the general idea.
I am developing a very similar kind of boat.
About the trim on the rudder, I know very little about the subject, but the trims I have seen are in the keel.

Take a look at the trim on this one:

[Guillermo]

...Actually the old pull pull cables with chain around the wheel sproket can easily be set up for 2 steering stations , with an autopilot too.... FAST FRED
Joining Vega, I would like to know more about this system. Any clue?

SeaSpark,
Could you post more info on your design?
To balance the rudder you may locate a balancing area forward of the rudder axis. That's simple and efficient.
The purpose of a flap added to the back edge of the rudder is to increase its lift, this making moments even bigger on the system.
Here you'l find an extreme example of a flapped and balanced rudder:
http://www.becker-marine-systems.com/03_products_content/03_products_pdf/becker_flap.pdf
Also interesting their Schilling rudder:
http://www.becker-marine-systems.com/index.html

[SeaSpark]

Vega, I am a big fan of the Dick Zaal design you are referring to.

The retractable rudder will have to be in a tube, or hung behind the transom.
The tube will have to be very large in diameter, big disadvantage. Transom hung rudders are vulnerable.

About the balancing, by moving or rotating the rudder fore and aft you increase and decrease the balancing area forward of the rudder axis. Since the rudder is retractable it would not be very had to accomodate for such a system. You only have to move the rudder a little to have a big effect on balance.

A free standing rotating wing mast is part of the design.

I will make a new thread in propulsion to explain what i have in mind for it.

(edit) The new thread in propulsion: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=84864#post84864

[FAST FRED]

The Edison catalog has all the parts to install the cable steering as required.

www.edsonmarine.com/ -

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

SeaSpark,
Take a look at James Wharram's sail design for his catamarans. The sail wraps around the mast providing almost perfect aerodynamic flow to the sails. It's an inexpensive method to go high tec with sails.

[Vega]

The Edison catalog has all the parts to install the cable steering as required.

www.edsonmarine.com/ -

FAST FRED

The dual systems that I find there are this:

That is not what we are talking about.

Can you point me in the right direction?

[SeaSpark]

From Greenseas2:


The sail wraps around the mast providing almost perfect aerodynamic flow to the sails. It's an inexpensive method to go high tec with sails.

This method has been used by other designers also and i agree completely.

If possible i would like to go a more high-tec way, the boatbuilding industry is not very innovative so i would like to see more non-standard solutions on the water. I like the v/d Stadt Swing Rig, http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/SwingRigInfo.html and http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6493&highlight=free+standing+mast.

There are more threads on free standing masts in this forum but not too many. Perhaps we should continue the discussion in one of the existing threads or start a new one.

[Greenseas2]

The next closest as far as sail efficiency goes is the sail in-mast furling systems. I believe that if we look at history as well as innovation, there isn't much that hasn't been tried. The newest thing that I've seen on the water was taken from surf board kite sailing (the Square ones). Recently there has been a few boats trying this out, but it's good for downwind only and there isn't much control for wind direction shifts. A good place to start an investigation would be with older sail lofts. They have probably seen a plethora of innovative sail designs. I don't know how much activity a new thread would get on sail design. There are some radical designs out there, but most are associated with sailing hydrafoils which are still a small segment relagated to R&D.

[SeaSpark]

In mast furling has the disadvantage of a high centre of gravity from the furling installation and the sail beeing fully up the mast when furled. When you are at the point of furling a sail you also want the COG to go down.

When something goes wrong the problem is going to be high up the mast , out of reach. Stress bending the mast is a likely course of the sail jamming at a moment conditions are rough.

[Wellydeckhand]

What About the Junk Rig...?

Kasten Marine Design, Inc.

Suitability to Motor Sailors: A motor sailor can make excellent use of the junk rig. A motor sailor can be 100% sailing vessel, as well as being 100% capable under power. There are many other approaches as well, such as that taken by the Gulliver 46, the Greatheart 48 and the Greatheart 60 designs. These types have an emphasis on sail that is more on the order of around 60% to 70%. In other words, the sails are provided primarily for the purpose of auxiliary propulsion, rather than primary propulsion. The sails serve the function of being the "get-home" motive power in the case of engine failure. In addition, the sails provide extra boost while motoring when the wind favors. As a bonus, the sails and rig provide excellent roll dampening. For this purpose, the junk rig is ideal.


I was wondering if in europe junk sail are used to incoperate into existing motorsailor design? What hull design would actually benefit from this sail rig?
:):):)

WDH

[FAST FRED]

The dual systems that I find there are this:

That is not what we are talking about.

Can you point me in the right direction?


Take a look at "bulkhead steering" You will find a shaft in which a wheel is mounted on one side and a sprocket to operate a bronze or SS chain on the other end.

These are used to operate cables arround properly sized sheves to a rudder quadrant.
2 quadrants can easily be on a single rudder shaft , alowing dual steering .
Both wheels will move together.

With generous sized lubricated sheves the steering losses due to friction or flexing the steering wires is quite low.

FAST FRED

[Guillermo]

Proposed formula to easily estimate HP (DIN) for monohull motorsailers when displacement is not accurately known:

General HP / Lwl formula for 20 < Lwl (feet) < 40 :

HP = K * Lwl * (Lwl - 10)

being K values:

Light motorsailers (D/Lwl ratio's 250 zone) K= 0.06
Medium (350 zone) K= 0.08
Heavy (450 zone) K= 0.1

As D is not known K is a guess, for sure, but we can have an intuitive idea about the motorsailer being light, medium or heavy.

I would appreciate very much your comments and critics.
Cheers.

[kjell]

To calculate the BHP for a Motor Sailer is easy. To know the weight of the boat is one of the most important parts of the calculation. By guessing, the result can bee very little accurate. In the most of modern marinas they have a Travel-lift with weight indicator.

[sharpii2]

Proposed formula to easily estimate HP (DIN) for monohull motorsailers when displacement is not accurately known:

General HP / Lwl formula for 20 < Lwl (feet) < 40 :

HP = K * Lwl * (Lwl - 10)

being K values:

Light motorsailers (D/Lwl ratio's 250 zone) K= 0.06
Medium (350 zone) K= 0.08
Heavy (450 zone) K= 0.1

As D is not known K is a guess, for sure, but we can have an intuitive idea about the motorsailer being light, medium or heavy.

I would appreciate very much your comments and critics.
Cheers.

What if I have a small motorsailer that has a WL of 10ft?

1.0*10*(10-10)=0

Under your proposed formula it would need zero HP.

Did you mean that the minimum WL be 20ft?

Don't think I'm making fun of you here. I have made many a spread sheet myself that had the same disasterous results:eek:

Wouldn't it be easier to have people guess the displacement of the boat. People who have been around boats long enough can be pretty good at that.
Other than that, they probably shouldn't be making those kind of calculations in the first place.

Perhaps a more intuitive way of judging a boat's heft is by looking at its cross section rather than its profile. For this, I invented the Heft Ratio.
Heft Ratios start at around 0.50 (for an 'Open 60' type) and go up to 3.0 and above (for a Victorian 'plank on edge' type). But, more typically, they hover around 0.75 to 2.0 for more typical boats. A harbor tug, for example, would be around 2.0.

The formula for the Heft Ratio is:

20 volumes (in cubic units)/ Length * (Beam^2)(in linear units)

I've had great fun on the water front using this formula. I once asked a commercial fisherman how many horsepower his boat had. After he told me, I told him how long and how wide it was. He was amazed at my accuracy. He invited me to go down to the docks and pick it out, since I already knew so much about it. I declined, knowing that all the others would have similer dimentions.

Maybe, in the 20 to 40ft WL range (if that's what you really meant), your formula would work quite well.
But, since I critisized it, I felt I ought to offer an alternative.

Bob

[kjell]

Hi Bob,
If you give me the LWL and the weight of the boat and tell me if you have a narrow or a wide stern I can easy calculate the BHP for you.

[Guillermo]

Kjell and Bob:
Thanks for your kind contributiions.
Yes, formula is supposed only to work (more or less) between 20 and 40 feet LWL.
It's not conceived for NA's, marine professionals or knowledgeable sailors, absolutely, but for the common aficionado looking for -or intested in- motorsailers. They usually do not know displacement for a particular boat, and I have had several enquiries asking me how they could estimate the power needed.
That's all.

[Gunnar S]

Any clue to where I can find info about his motorsailer designs in steel? The various links I´ve found on the internet have all been either 'dead' or with 'access forbidden'

[kjell]

This is my 40’ Motorsailer at cruising speed with 2 x 40 HP Lister engines.

[Vega]

This is my 40’ Motorsailer at cruising speed with 2 x 40 HP Lister engines.

Kjell, Your boat looks a lot bigger than 40ft.

[Guillermo]

Here Banjer 37 DUCK SOUP dressed for the beginning of 2006 season parade in Port Moresby, Papua, New Guinea. She won the prize to the best dressed boat.

[Stephen Ditmore]

Guillermo:

I think anyone with an appropriate sized motorsailor would be absolutely insane not to get an AutoProp. What other propeller continually optimizes itself when using engine and sails simultaneously? http://www.autoprop.com/

Do you agree?

Here's a book about owning a small motorsailor that some people might enjoy: http://armchairsailorseattle.stores.yahoo.net/sailinspoono.html

[Guillermo]

I agree about Autoprop being probably the wiser choosing for a motorsailer. About sane or insane, well..., I wouldn't be so....direct? :) (My own good old Marie doesn't mount one! :( )

Thanks for the link to the book. I'l post it at the Motorsailers & Motorsailings web pages.

[Ari]

I love to have one but my side of the data's is not enough..I just want to know an estimation how much will it cost me..

[FAST FRED]

"I think anyone with an appropriate sized motorsailor would be absolutely insane not to get an AutoProp. What other propeller continually optimizes itself when using engine and sails simultaneously? "

The question is what is optimum?

With an owner adjustable controllable pitch prop (Hunstad or equal) the vessel can be fine tuned to the current conditions .
A simple prop with just swiveling blades may do fine on an aux sail boat , but motorboats have different requirements.

EG at times motoring or motorsailing the load will be both propulsion and power generation.
With an EGT gage and CP prop the power used can be optomized for the changes in hotel load .

FAST FRED

[Vega]

"I think anyone with an appropriate sized motorsailor would be absolutely insane not to get an AutoProp. What other propeller continually optimizes itself when using engine and sails simultaneously? "

The question is what is optimum?

With an owner adjustable controllable pitch prop (Hunstad or equal) the vessel can be fine tuned to the current conditions .
FAST FRED

I don’t know the Hunstad propeller that you are talking about, but all the other controllable pitch prop that I know (for yachts) can only be tuned at the propeller and they don’t adapt automatically to any given circumstance as the Autoprop does.

Stephen, that is a relatively expensive propeller and to me it is as useful to a sailboat as to a motorsailor, providing you cruise a lot. Of course if you have a sailboat or a motorsailor and just do some hundred miles a year, it is not going to justify the price.

Fred, I have had one in my sailboat for three years now and I think that you would love it.

When motorsailing, instead of running the engine at 2000rpm or more, you only need 1000rpm, sometimes less. The only problem is that when the wind picks up and you don’t need that extra push to sail at more than 6K, sometimes you forget to turn the engine of, because you can not hear it.:cool:

To give you an idea of its efficiency when adapting to different conditions, let me tell you that the speed of my boat with the engine at the idle (ralenti) rpm is around 4k (in flat water and with a clean hull).

[jimisbell]

To all who have replied to my original inquiry, many thanks for your comments and advice. As a work in progress, at least at this discovery/research point, I have to admit to a bias to mono hulls rather than multi hulls. Further, we (my better half, actually) prefer an over-sized & fully windowed deckhouse, as most sailing hulls "are like living in a cave". Sorry about that! Sketches still pour off my writing desk as compromises arise...but that's what designing is all about. Thankfully, a couple of years remain before all the bits and pieces can be (hopefully) knitted together into something that resembles a "pretty" and accomodating vessel worthy of everyones effort. Thanks again, Cheers, Richard.

Because you are talking about designing a "New" boat I didnt respond, but your requirements seem to fit very closely to the boat I just bought and sailed from Tampa FL to Corpus Christi TX (35 days in the GIWW). You may want to consider remaking an older boat to your needs or at least looking at the design of an older boat to adapt what you could use. I will be 70 in September and my wife is 68. We are average in health...in fact I had just had a radical prostatectomy on Feb 13th and we started the trip on May 2nd of this year. The doctor would have been upset if he had known I was doing it. The trip was abouit 400 miles of open water and 1000 miles in protected waters. We wanted a boat suited to our ages but capable.

My wife wanted comfort and I wanted sail. But as you say most sailboats are like living in a cave. The big requirement for us was shallow draft as our slip is only 4 feet at low tide. We had been looking for a power boat without a sail because of the draft requirements.

BUT this boat was offered and it fit our needs. The boat originaly was a 1972 Gulfstar 36 with a center cockpit. The previopus owner took it down to the bare hull and started over. You wanted a pilothouse and ours does not have that, but with enclosing canvas and plastic windows we will have protection from the weather as long as it is not too severe. Since the Gulfstar 36 Trawler used the same hull, you could enclose the center cockpit. The interior has been fully replaced and redesigned from the hull up with a large V Berth forward Gally and large dining area in ONE room, not divided. The aft cabin is a lounge with built in TV entertainment center (my wifes requirement) and full head shower etc.. It too is open and airy. The interior is painted white and gold with very little teak. This contributes to the openness of the cabins. I would have liked more teak, but I must admit to the more roomy feeling of white and gold. We subscribe to the 6-4-2 rule, "6 for cocktails, 4 for dinner, and 2 for overnight." This boat would allow for a second couple in the aft cabin on the setees if need be, but I doubt the "need will be". The dining table will easily seat 4 with lots of room and the center cockpit will handle up to 8.

The hull of the GS 36 is not the pretiest lines you will ever see, but it is wide and roomy which at our age is what we wanted.....after all, I am inside the boat looking out, I dont have to look at its rather plain lines.

The sails are both roller furling as I was getting too old to handle the multiple sails of the Bruce Roberts 44 ketch that we sold when we moved to this boat and my wife DOES NOT DO DECKS, so it had to be a boat I could singlehand. The engine is a Perkins 4-108 4 cyl diesel that uses .671 GPH at cruise and runs the boat at 5.6 Knots at a reasonable RPM.

We just got home on the 6th of June after 35days aboard her and I can honestly say, I have never had a boat more suited to my needs than this boat and my wife agrees...AND we had NO dissagreements or even heated discussions during the entire 35 days. We were both happy and both enjoyed the trip.

[sharpii2]

Guillermo:

I think anyone with an appropriate sized motorsailor would be absolutely insane not to get an AutoProp. What other propeller continually optimizes itself when using engine and sails simultaneously? http://www.autoprop.com/

Do you agree?

Here's a book about owning a small motorsailor that some people might enjoy: http://armchairsailorseattle.stores.yahoo.net/sailinspoono.html

Nope. Not always

In my boat design class final project, my design had a similer one called a 'Max Prop'. The idea for my proposed motorsailer was to despense with light air sails. They take up more room than several dozen gallons of diesel. When there was sufficient wind, the boat was to go to straight sailboat and the huge prop was supposed to feather to almost no drag.

The diesel was to be very small and expected to drive the 27ft waterline boat at a mere 4kts during a dead calm. I had hoped to trade motoring speed for greater motoring range.

The boat was designed to be inexpensive as possible. The engine didn't even have a transmission. It had a direct belt drive instead. The expensive feathering prop was the only thing I was willing tp splurge on. And that was because it was supposed to pay for itself in saved fuel in a very short time.

Earlier in my studies, I came up with a different concept. This one was supposed to be able to reach hull speed under power but only have a range of a hundred miles or so under power. It was also designed to be simple, sea worthy, and relatively cheap. It had a much bigger engine and a much smaller prop. Efficiency was not to be her strong point. Getting from point A to B in a given time under all but the very worst conditions was.

There are all kinds of ways you can spend money on a boat. Unless you are super wealthy, you had better spend it on what best helps it do its intended purpose the most.

Bob

[brian eiland]

A very interesting new subject thread has recently been posted having to do with a monohull approach to long-range ocean cruising:

Displacement Glider, PowerKeel, etc (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=95771)

One aspect of it I find intriging is the idea of a marriage between the PowerKeel hull concept and Paine's Steadysailer design.

Some of you that have participated in the discussions on this thread might find it rather interesting

[Stephen Ditmore]

Now that I see myself quoted I agree with Guillermo that my wording may have been too strong. But I don't agree with Sharpii2 that the MaxProp and the AutoProp are equivalent. When under power and sail simultaneously, the AutoProp will re-pitch itself each time a change in wind speed, or anything else, effects the speed of the vessel. What it's designed to hold constant is the angle of incidence of each blade, at whatever speed the vessel is running, at whatever speed the prop is turning. While the MaxProp may have some nice features, I don't think its self-adjusting in a similar manner.

I think the Hundestat that Fast Fred refers to can be adjusted from inside the vessel. It may be available in larger sizes than the AutoProp... so for larger vessels it may be a good option. Too complex for a smaller yacht, though, it seems to me.

[brian eiland]

... While the MaxProp may have some nice features, I don't think its self-adjusting in a similar manner.

I think the Hunstad that Fast Fred refers to can be adjusted from inside the vessel. It may be available in larger sizes than the AutoProp... so for larger vessels it may be a good option. Too complex for a smaller yacht, though, it seems to me.
That's the way I remember it as well.

I've had two occassions for owners of vessels that tried out the AutoProps to tell me they were not happy with them. Both were on new constructed multihulls. Sorry I do not know the details of either case.

[Vega]

I've had two occassions for owners of vessels that tried out the AutoProps to tell me they were not happy with them. Both were on new constructed multihulls. Sorry I do not know the details of either case.

The Autoprop only adjusts between certain limits. They have different propellers for different boats, different engines, transmissions, etc (even if they all look the same). If the propeller is badly chosen, it will not work well. They have a lot of experience with the more common models, but adapting one to an unknown model may prove tricky....just guessing;)

[FAST FRED]

Hundestat is the proper spelling.

These controllable pitch props are I believe Danish Mfg.

The units I have sailed with were fully adjustable in pitch from Fwd to Reverse , by cranking a small wheel many turns.

Older boats had reduction gears but no clutches and the prop was merly run to zero pitch to stop.

Fun on starting up the next AM as many diesels will build RPM as they warm , requiring adjustment of either throttle or handwheel to stay in place.

Today most are used with std trannys , to ease docking.

An EGT gage is needed to get the best efficency from these rigs .

These props and their shafting get mounted to a thrust bearing on the hull. This makes vibration isolation and soundproofing of the engine much easier.

FAST FRED

[brian eiland]

....(big snippet from posting #125)....You may want to consider remaking an older boat to your needs or at least looking at the design of an older boat to adapt what you could use. I will be 70 in September and my wife is 68. We wanted a boat suited to our ages but capable.....My wife wanted comfort and I wanted sail.
We just got home on the 6th of June after 35days aboard her and I can honestly say, I have never had a boat more suited to my needs than this boat and my wife agrees...AND we had NO dissagreements or even heated discussions during the entire 35 days. We were both happy and both enjoyed the trip.
I just wanted to say "Thank You" for your input. It's great to hear from those people 'out there doing it', particularly at your age, and when they haven't converted over to singularly powerboating.

[Vega]

More than that. It makes us (me) dreaming.
I hope I can also do it at that age...and really, guys like you make my hopes and dreams bigger ...and that is great, because living is also dreaming.

Thank you, and best wishes for you and your wife

Sincerely,

Paulo

[Milan]

...I hope I can also do it at that age...

Inspiration to all of us, congratulations Jimisbell!

Mike Richey is another inspirational sailor, sailed solo across Atlantic at the age of 80.
http://www.jesterinfo.org/MikeRichey.html

Milan

[Milan]

...Hundestat....FAST FRED

Hundested used to build engines as well, now days, controllable pitch propeller systems are their core business, but, they are oriented to the bigger boats, their smallest propellers are for the engines of 150 HP.
http://www.hundestedpropeller.dk/?id=4183
Sabb builds CPP systems for smaller engines as well. Their beautiful old fashion 10 HP engine, (unfortunately not longer in production), was sold with a CPP as an standard option!
http://www.sabb.no/eng/homepg.aspx
http://home.no.net/sabb1/

Milan

[Lyle Creffield]

Hundestat is the proper spelling..

An EGT gage is needed to get the best efficency from these rigs .

FAST FRED

Hi F Fred
Pardon my ignorance what does EGT stand for?

lyle

[Redsky]

exhaust tempature guage espically on a turbodesil like many are now a days to high a exhaust temp causes the lubricant reaching the turbo to break down and then either the turbo freseses up or it spits the impeller , a normaly asperated desil can be overloaded that way too but it harder to do..depending on your rig.

[Lyle Creffield]

Thanks

Whats wrong on these marinised ind./automotive engines (as opposed to a marine diesel with individual cylinder ETG) which occupy most small boat engine rooms to set the RPM required and adjust prop pitch (increase) till black smoke is detected and then depitch the prop till the exhaust is clear that is on engines in good condition

lyle

[Redsky]

welll personally i think truck closed cooling system desils dont take well to freshwater cooling it screws up the tempature control /lots of them are computer controlled now/ so the way a truck desil is profiled prety mutch mandates a dry stack and fresh air inflow instead of freshwater.because that how it was designed...and gear ratios. look u can have a drag racer machien shop place shorten the axels down as mutch as possable on 2 matching truck diff's keeping the brakes and air cans ,and straight locked diff mount 1 so one axel end mates up the truck rig bolt pattern with a flex u joint to end of prop shaft mount the 2nd so one bolt pattern ring conncts to the pinion u joint of the 1 diff connect original drivshaft to trans agian and u have something all set up drivetrain wise depending on space u have avaliable...with 3 axels u can do 2 shafts 1 engine. and u end up with under way power take offs too

[Redsky]

so another question on say 40-60 m boats...1 big mast or 2 slightly smaller masts, in general?

[Vega]

On April 2005, Bluewater sailing magazine published a very good article about Motorsailers. They call it a "report" and it's a kind of well done summary on the subject.

Most of the things said there have been already said here, in this forum.

I have made a resumeé, but you can read the full article here:

http://www.bwsailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BWSC&Product_Code=0405


"The new generation of motorsailers might be the biggest design evolution since the Bermudan rig

Motorsailing is the dark secret of most cruisers; ask any cruiser how often they run the engine while sailing and the answer may surprise you, given that they are on a sailboat, designed to make way without the use of an engine. .....

The response from designers has been two-fold.

Engines

Today's boats commonly have much larger engines than those installed in previous years. Arthur Beiser, in his book The Proper Yacht, published in 1966, said that 1.5 horsepower per 1,000 pounds of displacement was "a good preliminary figure" and that two horsepower per 1,000 pounds was "about as much as a sailboat hull can ever make use of." Eric Hiscock in Cruising Under Sail (1950) was of the opinion that 1.5 horsepower per 1,000 pounds was enough to "drive the yacht against a strong wind and a steep sea," and that for "normal use as an auxiliary," one-half horsepower per 1,000 pounds "should be enough."
A look around at some of today's cruisers gives a wide range of horsepower to displacement ratios. The Hallberg-Rassy 46 has 2.69 horsepower per 1,000 pounds of displacement; Dudley Dix's Shearwater 45 is 1.81 per 1,000 pounds; the Oyster 45 is 2.2 per 1,000 pounds; the Catalina 470 is 2.89 per 1,000 pounds and Beneteau's Oceanis 461 is 3.73 per 1,000 pounds. It seems that two horsepower per 1,000 pounds of displacement is nearly the norm, with higher numbers seen more than lower ones: Engines are getting lighter and more powerful.

The change in hull shapes

The other trend is the change in hull shapes, from narrow, deep boats with similar wetted areas fore and aft of the keel to wider hulls with more moderate deadrise. The wetted area aft of the keel is broader and much flatter than in years past, while the bow has a more circular cross section. With the boats capable of more speed under power, more flotation must be designed into the stern to prevent it from squatting when at hull speed. ....

But even boats with hull shapes designed to optimize sailing (rather than motoring) have bigger motors than in the past, so how are we to define a motorsailer? ...

... We certainly need a better definition than engine size or sailing ability.
Bob Perry, a designer with a fair number of motorsailers to his credit, thinks this might be, if not the best, the easiest definition because "the other indicators are all over the map."
David Pedrick, whose latest motorsailer, MITseaAH, breaks some very new ground .. A motorsailer "might have three times the engine size of a sailing auxiliary with the same displacement," says Pedrick.
.....Another defining aspect is the sail area-to-displacement ratio (SA/D). Anything less than 13 certainly qualifies here, but designers are now drawing motorsailers with more sail area than ever before, so this, too, is not always accurate. Ted Hood's No Compromise 54 (reviewed in BWS February 2005) has an SA/D of 20.3, for example, with 7.4 horsepower per 1,000 pounds displacement.
....
The prismatic coefficient

Most sailboats have a PC of .50 to .55, perhaps .56. Powerboats, with a "fuller" aft and stern section, are typically .60, perhaps a little higher.
A fuller stern section counteracts the squatting stern by providing buoyancy aft, thus allowing the boat to go faster. If motorsailers are to excel in the powering mode, they will have a higher PC, and this is the case with some of the more successful recent designs.
..
The Bruckmann 50 displaces 45,000 pounds ready to sail and with its 140-horsepower Yanmar has 3.2 horsepower per 1,000 pounds and an SA/D of 14.35 with a displacement/length ratio (D/L) of 268 and a PC "closer to .60," says Ellis. ...

The Mandarin 52 is made in Zhuhai, China, by Seahorse Yachts to a Blaine Seeley design. ..The hull, ... is also used in their 52-foot trawler, and the Mandarin 52 is a boat the builder happily says will work best with liberal use of the engine. With a PC of .62, the 50,000-pound displacement sloop has a beam of 15 feet with a 46-foot waterline. With a 220-horsepower Cummins turbo diesel turning over at 1,660 rpm, its most efficient speed, the builder claims the boat will make 7.2 to 7.3 knots at 2.7 to 2.9 gallons per hour without use of the sails.

From Finland comes Nauticat, building a line of pilothouse yachts from 33 to 50 feet. Nauticat defines their range of boats as being either pilothouse sailing vessels or motorsailers, with the difference in part whether the boat is faster under power or sail.
....
Bob Perry has been designing motorsailers for some time, ... In 1995 he designed a 48-foot center-cockpit ketch with inside steering (in addition to a proper binnacle with a wheel in the cockpit) and a very respectable displacement/length ratio of 185. The SA/D of 14.28 is at the high end of what is usually thought of as motorsailer territory, and the hull shows more genes from sailboats than motorboats. The PC is .54 and the boat, only one of which was built, had a 140-horsepower Yanmar for 3.4 horsepower per 1,000 pounds. "It really sailed and motored well," says Perry. ...

Of more recent vintage is the Sawyer 45, a 45-foot, ..The inside steering station is located in the aft starboard corner of the raised saloon/pilothouse, and although it has a wheel, "the reality is that you don't need a wheel, only a joystick," says Perry, "but some people like the looks of a wheel." Ever the logical designer, he notes that most sailing is done with an autopilot and, at least on a motorsailer, there will be no shortage of electricity or even hydraulic power to operate an autopilot. The Sawyer 45 has a PC of .54.
....
Fisher Yachts drew design inspiration from the proven seaworthy lines of North Sea fishing trawlers to produce boats that are sturdy, seaworthy and dry, even if they are not the sort of boat that will produce the most exciting performance under sail. ...
....
The Puffin series from the Dutch yard of De Gier & Bezaan, drawn by Olivier F. van Meer Design, exemplifies the workboat aspect of some motorsailers. ... The Puffin 42 is a plumb-bowed pilothouse motor-sailer built of steel (or aluminum) with a cutter rig. The 42 displaces 43,000 pounds with a sail area of 1,120 square feet and an 83-horsepower Deutz diesel. The horsepower-to-displacement ratio is 1.93 per 1,000 pounds, the SA/D is 14.72. The hull, with a PC of .54, has full sections throughout, so that the boat can be left to dry on a tidal beach. The four-foot draft becomes eight feet with the 2,600-pound centerboard down.....

Other designers take a somewhat different tack for their motorsailers, taking their cues from motor vessels with subtle changes in hull shape, adding ballast and putting a sailing rig on it. While the gene pool of these vessels is closer to that of motoring than sailing, they are certainly more than a motorboat with a steadying sail.

Chuck Paine's Steadysailer takes design elements from workboats and sailing yachts to produce a boat that will proceed at nine knots under nearly any condition, with a range of 3,000 miles under power alone. ...."it really is a motorsailer," says Paine, "the engine will run all the time," with assistance from the sails...... ("it's kind of a big Lightning," says Ed Joy, lead designer on the Steadysailer project at Chuck Paine Yacht Design) is a large part of the design's success. Projected fuel burn rate is 3.25 gallons per hour at eight knots, assuming full tanks, fully stocked for cruising and "assuming seaway," says Joy.
The boat displaces 48,900pounds at full load, giving the boat 2.14 horsepower per 1,000 pounds displacement. This is rather low for a motorsailer, but the hull shape allows the use of a smaller engine with a resultant gain in fuel economy.
... An A-framed outrigger hangs out each side to rig the paravanes that will steady the boat on the downwind points of sail favored by cruisers. ...

BlueWater Sailing thoughts

When considering the purchase of a motorsailer, examine your personal sailing style to narrow your choices.

The shape of the hull will tell you much about how the designer intended the boat to be used.

If it has an immersed transom with flat-buttock sections, then it will be more comfortable with the engine running. While that doesn't mean it won't sail, it does mean that it will motor well, probably faster than it will go under sail alone.

The motorsailers of the past were sometimes referred to as "60 to 40" boats, meaning they were 60-percent motorboats. While today's boats perform better under power than their forebears, they are much closer to the goal of being a true 50 to 50 boat. A bit of observation, coupled with knowing what to look for, can tell you which parts of the boat have been designed for which role.

If you see a hull that looks more like a sailboat, then the boat's best speed will be limited to the 1.35 ratio, whether under sail or power. A big engine will only mean you will be able to maintain speed in adverse conditions: You won't go any faster...

The sail area-to-displacement ratio can be useful when examining a motorsailer as with any sailboat. Remember, though, that the higher the number the earlier you have to take in the first reef. Accept that the virtue of a motorsailer is that you can make higher average speeds, which is done by eliminating the slow speeds and continuing to make decent way even in the absence of wind. ...

Although few motorsailers have adjustable-pitch propellers, BWS thinks they could be a worthwhile option. Typically a motorsailer will be making some way with the sails and only needs, say, 40 horsepower of push to get the boat up to hull speed. With an adjustable prop simply dial up a high pitch and set the engine to run at its most economic speed. ....

The greater interior volume afforded by most motorsailers can be as much a deciding factor as the comfort and consistent speed. After the first cozy night tending to the inside steering station with cold rain and wind outside, many motorsailors need no more convincing that trading their faithful sailboat was the right idea.

Some sailors see trawlers as the solution, perhaps adding a steadying sail.
Consider that a trawler with engine problems is not much more than a hazard to navigation. ...

The motion of a trawler in a seaway is vastly different from that of any sailboat or motorsailer. Rolling is such a problem that controlling it is a regular topic of discussion at trawler websites and magazines.

And, there will never be enough wind, at any point of sail, for you to shut off a trawler engine. A good motorsailer can routinely make passages that, if done by a trawler, would be headline news.

We are not going to go out on any limbs and say which is the best motorsailer. Even more than with sailboats, the design dictates what the boat does best.

Sailboats only have to sail, but motorsailers have to perform well with two very different motive forces. When done right the solution results in a boat that is comfortable, relatively fast (or at least consistent) and has more room than a comparably sized sailboat.

There aren't any "pocket" motorsailers as the design requirements virtually assure the boat will be big enough to be comfortable in a seaway.

With a design that provides an easily driven hull and adequate sail area, the boat will derive maximum efficient speed from each. This will reduce fuel costs, and the smaller sail area will be easier to handle.

Today's motorsailers are evolving quickly, driven by more knowledgeable owners and designers who derive inspiration from the best boats of the past and improve them with modern design technology and a sure eye".

by Greg Jones on Bluewater sailing magazine, April 2005

[Redsky]

another thought....there any info on useing forward and aft props on a MS

[jimisbell]

"There aren't any "pocket" motorsailers as the design requirements virtually assure the boat will be big enough to be comfortable in a seaway. "

I think I would take issue with this statement....unless the referance is only to NEW boats. I think the Albin 25 and 27 aft cockpit motorsailers are definately "pocket" motorsailers and, at least my A25, is comfortable in a seaway..with a small steadying sail up.

[sharpii2]

Interesting article, Vega. Thank you.

Now for a few observations of my own:

1.) There may have been a breakdown in trade winds. This may be due to 'Global Warming'. As the Artic and Antartic get warmer, there can be less heat difference between them and the tropics. And that could rob you of reliable winds.

2.) Todays lighter hulls may need more horsepower per ton because they have less wave penitrating (and gust penitrating) momentum. Like throwing a beach ball up wind as opposed to a soccer ball.

3.) The more you use an engine, at least in long distance cruising, the smaller the engine should be. The engine's main job is dealing with calms and flukey, unreliable winds. It doesn't take a lot of power to do this. (To drive the boat at about the square root of its waterline in feet times knots). Even then, you are motorsailing.

If you want to go faster, the sailing rig becomes more and more secondary and smaller. It still does very useful work, even in light winds, and can greatly roll stabilise the boat. The boat will go faster (maybe as much as 50%), but it will need huge tanks. The speed at which it motors and the size of its tanks now become major design considerations. They now greatly effect the hull design itself. The boat looks more and more like a power boat and less and less like a sailboat. This kind of boat is probably the most useful for people who can afford a boat that size. People like that (who can afford the payments) usually have busy lives and must show up at x location at Y time. And that is simply not in a sailboat's DNA. The problem here is voyage time predictability. And unless you have an 'Open' whatever, which with its high peak speeds can raise its average speed, you are simply not going to have it. (maybe thats why most of the sailboats I see are used for around the cans racing.)

Unless, that is, you are willing to put up with a much lower average speed (an idea I am very interested in promoting). Then you simply have a sailboat with larger tanks. IMHO, a voyaging sail boat that carries enough fuel to motor, exclusively, at least half its designed range, is a motorsailer. Even if it looks like a pure sailboat. IMHO such a boat can be very economical to build (doesn't need a huge rig) easier to use, (the smaller sails are handier), and cheaper to maintain (can get by with a less efficient but sturdier longer, shallower keel and might need fewer mid season haul outs and shallower slips for that reason)

Bob

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

Most important is the fact that motor sailors are like bigger women - they may not be all that sexy in bright light - but they will keep you warm and get you where you need to go...:)

Also see http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/2005/cat/500/perpage/24/ppuser/3673 ...

YUP...

SH.

[brian eiland]

....big snippet.....On April 2005, Bluewater sailing magazine published a very good article about Motorsailers. They call it a "report" and it's a kind of well done summary on the subject.
I knew I remembered posting a reference to this good article before....just forgot where I put it:
(under "Monohull verses Multihull powersailers/motorsailers")
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=46397&postcount=79

[Vega]

I knew I remembered posting a reference to this good article before....just forgot where I put it:

Sorry no to have mentioned that, but I didn’t noticed. Perhaps because you have only quoted a little part of it and probably I didn’t check the link.

I come over this article while doing a search on the “Puffin 42”.

[brian eiland]

Sorry not to have mentioned that, but I didn’t noticed
No problem, you did a much better job of highlighting the article than I did. I just try to crosslink similar subject matter

[Guillermo]

A new PH motorsailer from a well reputed firm: The Island Packet SP Cruiser
http://www.ipy.com/Default.php?Page=SPCruiser&Language=English
(Not one of my favourites, though)

Some calculated data for her (guessing HD)

Beam/Length Ratio B/L = 2,97
Ballast/Disp Ratio W/Disp = 0,24
Displacement/Length Ratio D/L = 223,58
Sail Area/Disp. Ratio SA/D = 15
Power/ Disp. Ratio HP/D = 4,76 HP/ton
Hull speed HSPD = 7,9 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 8,21 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 1,04
Comfort Safety Factor CSF = 1,85
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 29,57
Screening Stability Value SSV = 103,67
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 114,27 º
Heft Ratio HF = 0,98
Roll Period T = 2,97 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,12 G's
Stability Index SI = 0,76
CE Stability Index STIX = 39 (This one provided at site)

[Guillermo]

And also from Nordhavn:
http://www.nordhavn.com/news/pressrelease/motorsailor.php4

[SAQuestor]

And also from Nordhavn:
http://www.nordhavn.com/news/pressrelease/motorsailor.php4

Ah yes. I'll think about buying a lotto ticket for tonight's drawing. Probably should wait to see if it's a winner before placing an order.:p

[Vega]

This one seems different. They call it “A fast Sailmotor”. While motoring they advertise a max speed of around 18k and an economical cruising speed between 12 and 15k with a 140hp engine.

What seems remarkable is that the boat seems also to be a good sailingboat. The hull seems to be very close to a sailing boat hull and with a LWL of 13,5m a Displacement of 11T, a sail area of 98 m2 and retractable fin keel with a bulb with a max draft of 2.9m, that boat is probably a fast sailing boat.

http://www.stefini.com/broc_tec.pdf

[yipster]

long time vega, nice looking boat allright, good claims also yet why havent i seen a motersailor or sailermoter looking like a better motorboat? why do with the stancions and wire, why motor with a big mast up, think it can be better and drew up my fantasy of a motorsailer, i have my doubts sleeping good in the fwd kingsize beds under the pilothouse (i like CG) yet you may like sleeping in it feeling the ride? http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/6446/limit/recent

[westlawn5554X]

I think that is a very interesting sleek boat. Wave piecing for better speed and large storage for toys with cosmetic can be use for weight lifting equipment... WALLY is watching and I bet it is different unquiely YIPSTER.:) Well done, but I didnt see the hull part, cat or tri? More cat it seem, the centre hull is not in the water?

[Ari]

Indonesian style motorsailor
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5202/cat/500/ppuser/12573
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5202/cat/500/ppuser/12573

[yipster]

http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/devcat/images/devcat1.jpg
http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/devcat/devcat3.html
WALLY is watching
really think so? e-mailed incat few weeks back bout hull ideas but seems their gone ofline? http://www.incat.com.au/
below a rough 150m2 sailplan with belowdeck furlers

[Vega]

Yipster, after looking to your motorsailor I have to say that after all the one that I posted is quite vulgar :D

Your boat is the one that "is" different.:)

[yipster]

meaning a compliment yes? car is wrong, not a wrong car but what was it again your driving, should match better :D

[Guillermo]

Some figures for the Stefini 13.50, as calculated using their site's data and my own interpretation for the not available:

Beam/Length Ratio, B/L = 2,74
Ballast/Disp Ratio, W/Disp = 0,19
Displacement/Length Ratio, D/L = 119,03
Sail Area/Disp. Ratio, SA/D = 20,77
Power/ Disp. Ratio, HP/D = 6,04 HP/ton
Hull speed, HSPD = 8,92 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed, PMS = 10,3 Kn
Velocity Ratio, VR = 1,15
Capsize Safety Factor, CSF = 2,28
Motion Comfort Ratio, MCR = 19,5
Heft Ratio, HF = 0,61
Angle of Vanishing Stability, AVS = 112 º
Roll Period, T = 2 Sec
Roll Acceleration, Acc = 0,35 G's
Stability Index, SI = 0,4

Nice to play around in summertime, Marina to Marina day sailings, sleeping ashore (slosh under the flat stern needed to speed up to 20 kn must be annoying).

Designer states: ....aiming to satisfy many "impacient sailors" switching to motor because lack of time...A whole lot of a philosophy...:(

[Vega]

meaning a compliment yes?
Yes:cool:

[Vega]

Some figures for the Stefini 13.50, as calculated using their site's data and my own interpretation for the not available:

Ballast/Disp Ratio, W/Disp = 0,19

Angle of Vanishing Stability, AVS = 112 º Real:

Nice to play around in summertime, Marina to Marina day sailings, sleeping ashore (slosh under the flat stern needed to speed up to 20 kn must be annoying).

Designer states: ....aiming to satisfy many "impacient sailors" switching to motor because lack of time...A whole lot of a philosophy...:(

Guillermo, if that AVS was real, I would agree with you, but I can not understand how you have estimate it, the same for the Ballast/Disp Ratio of 19%.

The boat has a light weight of 8.5T and a deep lead bulb (around 3m deep) that looks to weigh about 1.5 to 2T. You can add about 0.5T more for the rest of the keel, but you don't know the percentage of interior ballast. Furthermore, the designer says that the weight of the bulb will vary to compensate the differences in weight of the different motorizations. That boat can have engines between 120hp and 300Hp.

Giving the experience and seaworthiness of his previous oceangoing boats, I would very much doubt that the AVS of the boat is only 112º. Probably the AVS will follow what is normal in this type of hulls; I mean a value between 120º and 130º.

This boat, with tanks for 800L of fuel, 800L of water and provision for a watermaker and generator is clearly not designed to "play around in summertime, Marina to Marina day sailings, sleeping ashore ".

The 19k of speed is only possible with a very unreasonable (in my opinion) 300hp engine. If you have the standard 120hp engine you will only get 12k of speed, with a reasonable consumption, and that, without being anything out of this world, would be nice, depending on the consumption, of course.

But what is really nice (for me) on this motorsailor is that, like they advertise, it is more a sailmotor, meaning that it is first a good sailing boat and second, a boat that has a reasonable and economical performance as a motorboat.

[Guillermo]

Paulo,

Sorry for the "Real" word appearing after AVS. A transcription mistake, as I had used the spreadsheet for another boat for which I knew the real AVS and noted it down by the side of the estimated one. Copying and pasting afterwards brought that wrong post. I've already delete it. Sorry again.

AVS estimated by the usual formulas doesn't pretend to be the real thing as it doesn't take into account reserves of buoyancy due to superstructures, etc., but only give a clue to compare boats.

As an example, Eric Sponberg's Globetrotter 45 has an estimated (by this method) AVS of 117º, but a more precise (also estimated, but developing the GZ curve) AVS of 137º because of its big volumes over deck.

Estimated Ratios are that: Figures of merit to compare boats, not the real thing.

But not knowing the real thing, thanks to the estimated numbers we may compare Eric's boat or any boat with any other boat, and get a picture of the comparative expectable performance of both boats. That's the only pretention, which is no little.

About the Stefini, I worked with available numbers at the site. Ballast/displacement ratio is a guess, taking into account similar boats with deep bulbed keels.

I do not like that concept of boat, but I do not pretend others following my wake. It's only that I don't like it and, as so, I say it.;)

(Well: To be more precise, I don't like it as an all around motorsailer. But I can admit it may be fun for precisely the use I intended to exemplify with the "play around...etc phrase")

[Guillermo]

A very nice one from Dick Koopman, Aerorigged.
http://www.dickkoopmans.nl/uk/index.htm Go to "New Proyects"

Here some numbers for her:
Beam/Length Ratio B/L = 2,93
Ballast/Disp Ratio W/Disp = 0,39
Displacement/Length Ratio D/L = 398,75
Sail Area/Disp. Ratio SA/D = 11,44
Power/ Disp. Ratio HP/D = 2,33 HP/ton (guessed)
Hull speed HSPD = 8,33 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 7,71 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 0,93
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 1,55
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 55,27
Heft Ratio HF = 1,68
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 120 º
Roll Period T = 5,13 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,05 G's
Stability Index SI = 1,17

This one seems like being very comfortable at sea and well mannered. S/D ratio seems low, to my taste, but maybe these ratios do not work well with Aerorigs....:?:

[Vega]

I like this one, the Fairwind 46. A steel hull boat (radius chine) that looks traditional and modern at the same time.

It is a John Butler & Associates design.

http://www.fairwindyachts.com/

[VASCONY]

I'm familiar with the majority of conventional motor sailers, mostly the European models (Fisher, Nauticat, etc.) but feel there is still room for improvement. In the world of aging sailors, the comfort of an enclosed pilothouse and inside stearing is more than appealing to this group. My ideal vessel would reduce the compromises of good sailing and good motoring characteristics. Further, in the 38' - 45' range, a couple should be able to comfortably operate and live aboard for extended periods with the conveniences of most shore-side systems. Only occassional, short-term guests would be on board so separate cabins and heads would be eliminated, in favour of one large master stateroom and head/shower/bath. A couple of sea berths would be sufficient. The pilot house would have comfortable seating and a dining area with ports/windows to enjoy the view. Despite these windows - storm covers - the vessel should be capable of ocean passages. In addition to good sailing, an engine should be powerful enough to give a good turn of speed in an engine room that provides ease of maintenance...with room for a generator, water maker, furnace/hot water heater and bank or batteries.
Question...are there any new designs and builders devoted to motor sailing vessels as described?
Cheers, Richard.

Hi Viceroy, I'm sharing the same concept. Why don't you check Cabo Rico 38' and Northeast 400 at
www.caborico.com
Cheers

[jimisbell]

My Bruce Roberts 44M had all those features with the exception that the pilothouse did not extend all the way to the back of the cockpit, but it could have been made to do so. The engine was a 100 HP Perkins diesel ( hull speed at 1350 RPM) in an engine room with full standing headroom for a 6 footer. The aft cabin was a Queen sized bed and there were two single berths on either side in the bow. All the features you desire were in that boat and it can be made in either GRP or Steel. Mine was steel.

[Vega]

Hi Viceroy, I'm sharing the same concept. Why don't you check Cabo Rico 38' and Northeast 400 at
www.caborico.com
Cheers

And the new Cabo Rico 42 pilot-house.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1570989/0

You can find other good modern motorsailors on these links:

http://www.c-yacht.com/yacht/hiswa/mast/ce%20classifying/yacht%20factory-plant/overzicht/6412/9435/Foto27s.html

http://www.degeroyachts.fi/

http://www.nordship.dk/

http://www.fantasi-yachts.se/boats/index.php?page=2_0

http://www.northshore.co.uk/index.php?p=yachts/vancouvr/van38p

http://www.wauquiez.com/ps41_uk.php

http://discoveryyachts.net/discovery/discovery_14.html

Regards

[Lyle Creffield]

Hi

One more for the list

http://www.radford-yacht.com/

I like the R14

Cheers

lyle

[VASCONY]

Sometimes...;)
Thanks for the link to the Holterman 46 page. I knew this boat but I thought it was a Fisher 46 with another name. Aren't they almost exactly the same....?

Guilermo, I think, the Seaton's designed Cheoy Lee 53'; 63' and 78' also deserve to be in your list.

[VASCONY]

And the new Cabo Rico 42 pilot-house.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1570989/0

You can find other good modern motorsailors on these links:

http://www.c-yacht.com/yacht/hiswa/mast/ce%20classifying/yacht%20factory-plant/overzicht/6412/9435/Foto27s.html

http://www.degeroyachts.fi/

http://www.nordship.dk/

http://www.fantasi-yachts.se/boats/index.php?page=2_0

http://www.northshore.co.uk/index.php?p=yachts/vancouvr/van38p

http://www.wauquiez.com/ps41_uk.php

http://discoveryyachts.net/discovery/discovery_14.html

Regards

Thanks for that! I even have visited the Fantasi yard-a lot to say.
What's your opinion of the new Island Packed SP Cruiser:?:
Regards

[Vega]

What's your opinion of the new Island Packed SP Cruiser:?:
Regards

I am sure that it is a fine boat and that it will perform as Bob Johnson had intended:

http://www.ipy.com/PDFFiles/SPCruiserDesignerComments.PDF
http://www.ipy.com/Default.php?Page=SPCruiser
http://www.hellieryachts.com/articles/spcruiser.phtml

But boats come in all styles and shapes, and this kind of boat is just not my cup of tea. I can not say that I find it beautiful, and I find the interior... kind of caravan, house like thing. Of course, it has a good quality and functional interior and this is a personal opinion that has to do with personal aesthetical preferences.

If I would choose a heavy motorsailor with trawler like capacity, I would choose a classical design, and a boat with an interior that looked like a boat interior, but again, this has to do strictly with personal taste.

My favorite heavy one is the Noordkaper 43:

http://www.noordkaper.com/Engels/index.htm

Regards

[Guillermo]

Guilermo, I think, the Seaton's designed Cheoy Lee 53'; 63' and 78' also deserve to be in your list.
Thanks Vascony. I'll review them.
Cheers.

[VASCONY]

Thanks Vascony. I'll review them.
Cheers.

Guillermo, here are some pictures for a.m. motorsailors and also Cheoy Lee 52'
and Frances 34"
10707

10708

10709

10710
Regards,
Vascony

[Guillermo]

Thanks Vascony. Out of town for several days, I'll work on those when back.
Cheers.

[Gary Walth]

This is my first big project. A BR44 Mauritus built and extended by a kind old soul. He sailed it for 15 years as a liveaboard with his wife and then let it float unattended for another 12. I am putting a pilothouse on with bow thruster; my engine is a 50 hp perkins and I think with the new bulwarks and doghouse I'll need it. I designed it with a 3D CAD package that is intended for architecture but was able to force it into curvatures. Any comments experts.

[jimisbell]

My BR M44 used the 100hp (6-354) and that was suffient to keep it going at hull speed and burned little fuel. BUT...my GS 36 uses a 50HP Perkins (4-108) and that is barely suffient to keep it at hull speed and using almost as much fuel as the 6-354 did and the difference in weight is significant. The GS 36 weighs only 18,000 lbs and the BR M44 weighes in at 29,000 lbs. I think the 50 HP Perkins is too small for your boat. At least for good longivity. The 4-108 will run at 2800 RPM while the 6-354 will run under 1400 RPM. Half the wear.

[FAST FRED]

"The GS 36 weighs only 18,000 lbs and the BR M44 weighes in at 29,000 lbs."

With 3 hp per ton most hulls work fine at cruise speed.
30,000 lbs is 15 tons so would need about 45 cont hp , a 60 hp engine should do.

Unfortunatly the 4-107 is about 25hp in cruise if any longevity is desired .That 50 hp is an add mans dream.

Perhaps a different choice is in order.

At 25 hp the boat should be propped to cruise at .8 X Sq Rt LWL.

FF

[jimisbell]

I think 20,000 lbs is only 10 tons

[Stephen Ditmore]

Naval Architecture uses long tons. 1 long ton = 2240 pounds. You'll also come across metric tonnes. 1 metric tonne = 1000 kg = 2204.5 pounds.

[yipster]

good putting that straight but to most metric souls like forexample in supermarkets a pound is half a kilo

[Gary Walth]

Thanks guys, I haven't had the boat on the water save 20 minutes at which time the overflow hose burst of old age and my twin 5 y.o. daughters took the helm "aim for that red bouy, daddy's going below for a minute". The engine was in about 18" of water and rising. Took a little longer than anticipated to get the 12 year abandoned bilge pump to kick. Just as I got a new bilge pump going we went aground 3ft off the red bouy. Girls had fun and I learned not to believe the "she's ready to go" saleman. ;)

Long story longer. Sounds like if I'm looking to hit hull speed, it might be under sail. I really didn't intend to be doing a ton (or tonne) of motoring for motorings sake. The design notes said "aux. power" and I guess that's what I'll have to live with for the time being. Truth be told, we intend to use it as a floating condo on the beach that we can gunkhole around and do short trips.

[Lyle Creffield]

I agree with yipster metric is the go

grew up with both in Aus
rebuilds i do in the system of measurement that is in place

new builds are in metric

this raises an important issue when discussing vessels - long or short ton/nes
should be identified for all to understand

[tpayne]

Found this while perusing Chuck Paines Website

http://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/RYDER52.pdf

52 ft, 21 tons displacement, 180 hp single screw.

Looks like 9 HP per ton which is plenty of power. Cruising at 8-9 knots.

I would quickly calculate a fuel consumption of approx 1.5 l/nm at cruising speed.

Very nice

[Guillermo]

Nice concept. Thanks for the info.

[brian eiland]

Guillermo, here are some pictures for a.m. motorsailors and also Cheoy Lee 52'......
For those interested in Cheoy Lee motorsailers you might have a peak at this subject thread that attracted quiet a number of postings on those vessels
Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden (http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/6710-motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden.html)
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/6710-motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden.html

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Brian. I'll use that info for my web pages.
Cheers.

[Guillermo]

Pierre Houin brought my attention tho this very nice motorsailor:
http://www.atoa64.com/index.php?menuid=1
You'll find some preliminary estimated numbers for her at the STIX (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=139790&postcount=221) thread.

Cheers

[SeaSpark]

Beautiful, can remember Heyman from winning the Yachting World design contest with his 44' deck saloon which had a bit cluttered deck layout.

The mast have plenty of rake aft, doubt the efficiency of this. A little more roach (not so much as it influences their ability to come down) in the fully battened sails could improve the looks even more.

[MikeJohns]

Hi Jeroen, Guillermo.
I suspect the rake is to try and shift the sail area aft since the CLR looks a bit far aft. It is a shame because a keel like that is a great boon to boat rigidity and moved fwd a bit would be better structurally placed along with a more desirable CLR while still keeping an open forefoot. Still everything is a compromise in small boat design.

Those big aft platforms are a worry on smaller vessels. On a double ender they are less than desirable. I have seen them destroyed by heavy weather on 60 foot wide transomed boats, and the double ender lacks a large aft reserve bouyancy which makes her more prone to pooping. Big platforms really need to be able to be folded away. They are also tend to be more prone to damage coming alongside another vessel or the dockside than a bowsprit (Consider springing off a leeward dock).

Then there is the danger of the operator being swiped off it by the mizzen boom. Probably better to cant out the aft railing and go for a higher aspect ratio mizzen to get the clew accessible and as you say more roach. That would also allow a bigger mizzen staysail.

Have any of them been built yet? the sail balance may be way off in practice.

If the coachtop was slightly higher he could move the hull ports off the topsides and into the coachtop sides (another item prone to damage particulalry alongside).

Beautiful renderings, good stability curve and I agree with his philosophy.

[yipster]

http://www.dutchyachtbuilders.nl/contentimage/upload/38.jpg
over a year back i saw her at DYB (http://www.dutchyachtbuilders.nl/index.php?lang=en)
she must be near completion now

[Guillermo]

Mike,
I agree with you on the platform dislike.
At their web pages there are images from a unit under construction (http://www.atoa64.com/index.php?menuid=8)
Probably the one Yipster saw.
Cheers.

[Lancerbye]

Here are some pictures of a Lancer 44 a Great boat. Too bad they are no longer being made. This one is loaded with creature comforts for the lazy sailor.13756

13757

[lazeyjack]

i have not really looked here:) this the first ever M, Sailer I built in 88, alloy fractional rig, in boom furling, 80hp 3.9 Cummins, Twin disc in 16 years done 350 engine hours!! for sail I think in NZ. 40 feet, and quite heavily ballested
maybe Vega you can buy her:))

[Vega]

i have not really looked here:) this the first ever M, Sailer I built in 88, alloy fractional rig, in boom furling, 80hp 3.9 Cummins, Twin disc in 16 years done 350 engine hours!! for sail I think in NZ. 40 feet, and quite heavily ballested
maybe Vega you can buy her:))

350 Hours in 16 years, my God! That says a lot about people and boats. Why should a guy order a boat like that, for doing 350 hours in 16 years:rolleyes: ?

My 4-year-old boat has 900 engine hours and it is a sailboat that needs very little wind to sail. That one is a Motorsailor and it looks that it will need to motor a lot. That will bring us to that old discussion about seaworthiness, bluewater boats and sailors.

It seems to me that there are a lot of guys obsessed with seaworthiness who want ultra seaworthy boats, and then practically don't sail. There are also a lot of guys that sail boats that those kind of guys consider dangerous and not seaworthy, that have circumnavigated with light modern boats without any kind of problem:D .

This is one of them, Mr. Alain Maignan, the new French hero. He has sailed from La Trinité (France) on 7/09/2006 and has returned on the 11/04/2007. He has sailed non stop 26 100 miles, circumnavigated, and all that with a 20 year old big production plastic boat, a small 34ft Jeanneau (4.7 T).

Mr Maignan is not a professional sailor (just an ordinary sailor with a dream) and he is over 50 years old. His boat didn’t carry a windvane and he has not experienced any major problem except a problem with the autopilot that he was able to fix.

http://alainmaignan.sportblog.fr/

http://www.jeanneau.com/2007/index.cfm?r=../news&p=index&fuseaction=Article&NumActualite=440&NumLangue=2&NumRubrik=10

(Lazey, it seems a seaworthy motorsailor, but that is not my kind of boat. I prefer light and fast.;) )

Talking about motorsailors, if someone is interested in a new Bavaria Vision 50ft with 20% discount (deliver in September), I know of one. If it were a 40ft I would buy it myself.

[lazeyjack]

http://www.dutchyachtbuilders.nl/contentimage/upload/38.jpg
over a year back i saw her at DYB (http://www.dutchyachtbuilders.nl/index.php?lang=en)
she must be near completion now
why are they building upside down< thought only amateurs did this?, nothing to gain, and all to lose, limited men can get on with other things, and then you have to roll the hull, still nice lines

[raw]

I guess that you could call this a motor sailer. Carried far too much fuel to be a yacht.......9000 Litres in fact for extended cruising. Schooner Rig.

It came off my drawing board a couple of years back and has since made a few trips up and down the east Australain Coast. Finish was some of the best I've seen, with everything that opens and shuts on board.

Length (hull) 25.6m (~84 ft)
Length OA ~ 92 ft with bowsprit
Beam 6.6m

[lazeyjack]

looks like Coomera?

[raw]

looks like Coomera?

Thats cause it is Coomera. Final fitout was done there.

[MikeJohns]

RAW


Interesting project but please tell us more. What is the hull layup?
Displacement lightship WSA and SA would be good to know .

What sort of shooner rig and how did you get on with the estimated and practical sail balance. ?

cheers

[raw]

Mike,

I'm not going to give a detailed answer for you here, but can tell you that the hull is timber planked with epoxy skins. Deck and superstructure is balsa sandwich. Again epoxy.

Displacements etc I'll keep to myself, but can tell you she isn't a lightweight, due to the amount of luxury fitted. You can't have aircon/tv/quality furniture/refrigeration/etc etc etc without adding weight. Luxury is carried right throughout the boat. She carries an absolute truckload of fuel for long trips away. The engine space has full standing headroom believe it or not.

Rig has two furling headsails on the main mast, on the mizzen we have the standard boom, with a genoa between. A topsail is flown above this on occaision.

As far a balance, that was a tricky one, as it doesn't fit neatly into any established criteria that I know of, since the rig is uncommon. That said, having a shoal draft keel gives a good window to get it right as does the sailplan for different conditions. I also had the balance checked by another very experienced designer to back me up on it. Seems to work now anyway.

raw

[Guillermo]

Interesting boat, Raw.
Some more pictures or drawings?
Cheers.

[brian eiland]

....Rig has two furling headsails on the main mast, on the mizzen we have the standard boom, with a genoa between. A topsail is flown above this on occaision.

As far a balance, that was a tricky one, as it doesn't fit neatly into any established criteria that I know of, since the rig is uncommon. That said, having a shoal draft keel gives a good window to get it right as does the sailplan for different conditions. I also had the balance checked by another very experienced designer to back me up on it. Seems to work now anyway.

raw
Reminds me of a conversion of a ketch rig I posted on my website discussion of a mast aft rig (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/);
"d) Conventional booms excessively flatten the foot of the mainsail, and are often oversheeted, contributing significantly to the leeway forces. I once had a copy of a test on a Morgan 41' Out Island ketch , where upon removing the mainsail, the boat lost only 1/2 knot of speed, but cut its leeway in half (from 11 to 6 degrees). A staysail was then rigged between the masts in place of the mainsail, and the boat regained 1 knot of speed while retaining its decreased leeway"

The middle sail in my Morgan discussion is called a staysail, while you refer to it as a 'genoa'. I refer to my middle sail of the mast-aft configuration as a "mainstaysail".

[raw]

Brian, you are right, I normally call that a stay sail, must've been a little tired when I wrote that.

Guillermo, of course I've got plenty of drawings and pictures. The drawing package for that boat consisted of around 70 drawings, so you get an idea of how complicated it is. I've just got to be carefull i don't give too much away. but ask away anyways, I'll do my best.

here's a profile rendering....

[MikeJohns]

Brian
I think the mizzen staysail is the best argument for a ketch and is a good reason to make the mizzen mast taller until eventually you have an equal masted ketch then if you shift to a staysail and topsail/fisherman you get to fill all the areas. A friend flies a Mule on a big heavy ketch and swears by it but it is an unkown sail to most sailmakers.

Another interesting format is that of the wishbone ketch as Robinson used in Svaap but I have not sailed one nor can I find much info on them. On really large boats the equal masted ketch/schooner is a good rig similar to Raws profile above, It is a good practical rig.


RAW I'd guess around 3000 Sq ft of sail area and 45 tons. Nice project, definately a small ship. Pity you cant talk details.

[Guillermo]

Thanks, raw. Nice looking boat.
I do not pretend you to reveal your design's secrecies, just whatever you feeel you can post to show us the general idea of the boat.
Cheers.

[raw]

Mike, You are light on both accounts though the sail area is a pretty good guess, the displacement is a little off.

[Pericles]

Marigraph posted details of a 300' schooner design called Glamare 300 on his site in 2003 with a wonderful rig. http://www.marigraph.com/projects.php?lng=en

Brian's staysail between mizzen and mainmast is an arrangement that I have suggested for a friend's Nauticat 33. With an equally tall mizzen and main mast, wouldn't a ketch become a schooner? No matter, there would be a wonderful opportunity for flying a mizzen topgallant staysail as well. :D :D
http://www.jst.org.uk/pdf/categories/tenacious/pdf/TNS%20Sail%20&%20Deck%20Plan.pdf

Elsewhere, a Topgallant is the third sail above the deck, but not on "Tenacious", it would appear.

MikeJohns, you mentioned a topsail/fisherman sail to fill the area above the mizzen staysail. Is that the 4 sided red sail shown on Spike Africa? http://www.lanceandlyndia.com/Boats_for_sale/Spike_africa/spike_africa.htm

The mule you also mentioned, I tracked down to here. http://www.webmoxie.com/seawind/mule/mule.htm

I am still not sure what to call the very large triangular sails set above the staysails on Glamare 300, nor can I discover how they are sheeted. I would be grateful for advice.

Thanks,

Pericles

[brian eiland]

I never was convinced that adding the 'mule' sail to this mainsail-less arrangement was that effective.

Have a look at the 'sailing' photo of this mainsail-less Tayana 55 I just posted here, and tell me another sail in this slot is going to be that productive for all of the headache and associated rigging, particularly if the mizzen were hoisted ??:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=151969&postcount=45

[MikeJohns]

Pericles
Yes that's a fisherman. Rigged as follows; the mainmast carries the peak halyard, the throat halyard goes to the foremast, a down-haul is required on the tack, the sheet goes to the end of the boom. They can vary in length and you will often see them 3/4 of the way to deck level as a very effective light air sail.

The other sail is usually configured as a Wishbone main, in this case if you called it a wishbone main without the wishbone a sail-maker would know what you were on about. Sheeting is simply halyard tack and a sheet to the aft-mast level with the clew and the luff is attached as any mainsail, furler or luff wire or slide or parrels or whatever.

Brian
On an under rigged ketch the mule is a very easy sail to add, sheeted in hard it reduces roll significantly. I have a German friend who sails a heavy Dutch ketch here who swears by the Mule and flew it for much of his trip from SanFran to Hobart recently, he says on most points of sail it added a whole knot. It was this information that has made me re-consider this sail. (This is on a heavy displacement full keel vessel).

cheers

[Guillermo]

On an under rigged ketch the mule is a very easy sail to add, sheeted in hard it reduces roll significantly.
I agree. I use an inverted Yankee as a mule on my good old, heavy and undercanvased Marie, with nice results, both in rock dampening and pushing in light winds.
Cheers.

[brian eiland]

I can see where it would aid in damping roll, but not that much in extra driving power

[Guillermo]

Yeap. Not that much, but pretty good for my really undercanvassed boat.

[MikeJohns]

Guillermo, Brian

Here's a picture of the vessel romping along in the trades, I can see the extra knot here. The topsails an old gaffer flies are not so dissimilar , just getting as much up as possible in good clean air.

This mule is a bit bigger in proportion to Marie's and cut for the job :)

[Pericles]

Ok,

Thank you all very much for the informative replies. However, I am still mystified as to the name for the triangular sails on Glamare 300 set above the jib shaped staysails. Or are they also called mules? Whatever they are, I like them.

http://www.marigraph.com/gallery.php?prj=glamare300&cat=exteriors&num=01&lng=en

Regards,

Pericles

[brian eiland]

Dear Pericles,
Is that a computer rendering, or an actual photo? The sails just look too perfectly set?

[Pericles]

Brian,

The vessel exists only on a hard drive, but, what a vessel!

BTW, what's the name for the triangular sails set above the staysails?

Regards,

Pericles

[Guillermo]

BTW, what's the name for the triangular sails set above the staysails?
Perry,
I think those are called 'trysails' in english (not storm trysails, but mast trysails), but I'm not sure.
Were quite common in schooners and even in steamers.
Cheers.

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

Trysails! Of course! I think I may have known that, but the old brain box is sometimes faulty on recall. I was going to call them "Leg of Mutton" sails, because of their shape.

Thanks for that.

Pericles

[RHP]

A trysail was certainly the storm'sl abaft the mast working in combination with the storms'l on the forestay on a sloop, I cant say whether the same name applied to the full size working sail pictured. Really she's a wishbone schooner without the wishbone by the look of it thanks to modern materials and technology.

[brian eiland]

MacLear & Harris designed a boomless cutter build by Palmer Johnson I believe. It was a vessel in the range of 80-90 feet

Does anyone have, or know where I might find a photo or two of her??

Frank Maclear was a big fan, and a pioneer of boomless sailing rigs

[MikeJohns]

Brian

She was called Falcon II.

LOA 62' LWL 50' 5" Beam 16' 3" Draft 8' Displ 92,000 lb SA 1823 sq ft Built in Aluminium by Palmer Johnson for B Heineman of Chicago.

All sails are roller furling, the Canadian designer Simpson had a similar design both seem to have performed very well .

Cheers

[brian eiland]

Thanks Mike, I wasn't aware of that one.

I remember a big strong looking cutter called "Angantyr" that was built for a gentlman here on the Chesapeake Bay. But it had a boom. It also had twin tandem centerboards.

I believe there was a larger version of this design built as a boomless vessel, wherein the mainsail was sheeted to the three backstays??

[MikeJohns]

I know Angantyr very well and viewed her recently with a view to purchase, she was on the hard in an industrial area in Houston and she'd been half gutted, the rudder had been extended most horribly and the teak decks had been glassed over.

The nav station was perched in an annex half way up the companionway and she was a bit dark down below, so I wisely but reluctantly passed her by.

I'm aware of a smaller version but not a larger one.

[brian eiland]

I posted these MacLear designs today


http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=160631&postcount=64

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=160633&postcount=65

[RHP]

What a beautiful yacht, thanks for posting. I have previously tried to find a website dedicated to MacLear and Harris but couldnt find anything. Is there a site i've missed or a book of designs at all?

Mike, where did you find Angantyr, any web reference?

Cheers
Richard

[brian eiland]

I’ve always had great respect for this gentleman Ted Hood, so it was with great interest that I read of his latest project, the Expedition 55, in the Oct issue of Cruising World magazine.

What is most interesting is the apparent reluctance to use the term ‘motorsailer’. Instead the popular notion tends to be to call them expedition yachts….long range yachts “as capable under power as under sail”. I too could be accused of often using this ‘expedition’ term, but I’m still not afraid of the very descriptive word motorsailer. At any rate it is a pleasure to see these ocean capable cruising style vessels coming back to the forefront of sailing yacht design, in lieu of the ‘racer/cruisers.

I won’t get into all of the details of the article in Cruising World mag, but I will hi-lite a couple of the more interesting aspects. To facilitate a shallower draft he makes use of an older design know as the Scheel keel. And to better its windward performance he adds a centerboard to that keel. It will work great, but I wouldn’t want to maintain it. Imagine the stuff that will find its way into this slot at the bottom of the keel, and then how high you might have to raise the boat to get at the exposed board. I think I would opt for just the plain Scheel keel.

From a man who made his name in ‘sails’ (Hood Sailmakers was once the biggest loft in the world), it was pleasure to here him quoted, “he’s always felt that wide beam and large genoas were both good for performance and readily adaptable to cruising boats. At older ages we need power assist for these sails, so he added power furling to all of the sails including the mainsail. Vertical battens facilitate an in-mast furling system rather than a boom furling one.

He appreciates a nice size genoa sail for its power, as I have expounded for a number of years in my discussions of the slot effect and with my mast-aft design. His inner forestaysail is also tacked well aft of the headstay to add versatility to the sail plan.

A neat bit of seafaring subtlety lies behind the design of the inside steering station. The enclosure provides superlative shelter, but isn’t part of the interior volume of the vessel.

There is one other problem I find. When the young ‘marketing guys’ get there hands into it, there always seems to be a bit of a nudge to the upper end performance specs in order to compete with the multihull capabilities…sometimes to the point of exceeding displacement hull speeds

http://www.portsmouthmarine.com/Expedition55.htm

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1416555/0

Ted Hood, Designer & Builder
http://www.yachtworld.com/portsmouthmarine/portsmouthmarine_4.html (http://www.yachtworld.com/portsmouthmarine/portsmouthmarine_4.html)

[MikeJohns]

.................
Mike, where did you find Angantyr, any web reference?


She is now sold, was in Houston when I looked at her.

[MikeJohns]

.....................To facilitate a shallower draft he makes use of an older design know as the Scheel keel..............


Brian
You can do better than the Scheel.

The scheel was supposed to do two things, get the ballast COG lower and provide an end plate, it does neither very well, I thought that detailed tank testing has killed off most interest in this keel and that increased resistance exceeds any net benefit?

I think it was Ted Brewer who initially found that a simple wide keel or a tapering keel ( wider at the bottom) both outperformed the scheel in all aspects, you may want to contact him.
A modest simple bulb even of square section is preferable these days if you really need a thinner root but my money would be on a wider conventional keel since you can get the engine and tanks down a lot lower in a shallow draft vessel. Centre boards can be light weight too and easily removable through a bolting case top. or big racing boat style dagger boards up through the deck.

[Guillermo]

From Portsmouthmarine pages:

".....Now it's time to head home, and you're faced with a 50-mile passage into a head wind, rain, and big seas.
No problem. Your new sailing yacht can power at 11 knots even in rough weather. It has a special hull shape that is fast under power and a 300-HP auxiliary that will bash through almost anything."

I find this totally misleading (mmmm....may I say it's bullshit?) :(

[brian eiland]

...I find this totally misleading (mmmm....may I say it's bullshit?)
Thats what I was saying about when the young 'marketing guys' get their hands on it

[brian eiland]

Brian
You can do better than the Scheel.
Thanks Mike, I've not studied it that deeply.

BTW, did you get that private email I sent you inreference to an Australian gentleman who wanted to contact you in reference to Angantyr ??

[Guillermo]

Brian,
not only the young marketing guys are to blame.
I do not like the concept itself.
To pretend an absurd amount of engine power (5.63 HP/tonne!) is somewhat the motorsailers' paradigma, is just not right to me.

Down here some numbers for her:

Data:
Lh = 16,71 m
Lwl = 15,07 m
Bmax = 5,47 m
Bwl = 4,41 m
Draught T = 1,94 m
Body draught Tc = 0,78 m (measured on plans)
Disp = 24187 kg (full load)
Ballast = 8172 kg
Sail area = 138,42 m2 (I,J,P,E based)
Power = 221 KW
Heeling Arm = 10,65 m

Estimated:
Wetted Surface = 62,23 m2
Length/Beam Ratio L/B = 2,84
Lwl/Bwl Ratio Lwl/Bwl = 3,42
Ballast/Disp Ratio W/Disp = 0,34
Displacement/Length Ratio D/L = 197,12
Sail Area/Disp. Ratio SA/D = 16,82
Sail Area/Wetted surface SA/WS = 2,22
SA (metric)/ Power (Imp.) SA/HP = 0,46
Power/ Disp. Ratio HP/D = 5,63 HP/ton
Hull speed HSPD = 9,42 Kn
Potential Maximum Speed PMS = 9,91 Kn
Velocity Ratio VR = 1,05
Best motoring speed (1.1) CSPD = 7,73 Kn
Capsize Safety Factor CSF = 1,91
Motion Comfort Ratio MCR = 34,22
Heft Ratio HF = 0,94
Righting Moment/Beam RMB = 1,08
Roll Period T = 3,87 Sec
Roll Acceleration Acc = 0,11 G's
Stability Index SI = 0,71
Angle of Vanishing Stability AVS = 115 º (A pity the real thing is not informed)

I have found no STIX information, not a GZ curve at the web pages.

Cheers.

[brian eiland]

This was another rather long subject thread dealing with this same subject matter:

Monohull verses Multihull Powersailers/Motorsailers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4499

"I've wanted to bring up a subject that seems to be a trend amoung monohull folks lately. I can only think it has to do with the competition they are feeling from the multihull market. I continue to see these inflated claims as to their particular design's performance capabilities, particularly under sail....."

[CaptScot]

A Trawler Motorsailer or (Troller Yacht), Diesel Duck 38 - are very economical to run and sail with many used for bluewater cruising world wide. All are amature built and the least costliest way to get out there for the average guy.

A complete set of professional plans 17 sheets (24" x 36") for a low maintenance fiberglass/wood/epoxy Diesel duck 38 by reknown yacht designer George Buehler. Included on rolls are lofted to full-size most hull station molds.

As much as I planned and looked forward to beginning this interesting, fun as easily do-able project for a long time, at present building a Diesel Duck of my own is not in the cards. Therefore, I am offering for sale for some lucky person these plans for a bargin price and fraction of the original price of $500, plus postage or make offer. The DD38 plans originally sell for $2,295, see links to Buehler website below.

Also included are two books: Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilder, Boatbuilding by Chapelle. The Diesel Duck is George Buehler's most popular design with dozens of these sturdy homebuilt ocean going boats sailing the world; see links. Buehler's practical design permits an amateur to build a sturdy boat from scratch with ordinary materials, ordinary tools, custom built to your needs and taste, all for a fraction of the price of a new boat. They are also economical to run.

There is a member group of several Diesel Duck homebuilders sharing info and photos at Yahoogroup's BackyardBoatbuilders2". Buehler's book "The Troller Yacht" would also be a good book to have for building this boat which describes these type of trawler yachts.

Easy to build, lots of room for liveaboard cruising, and furnished to what ever your imagination can dream up. The oceans of the world will be your oyster, not just reserved for the mega-buck yachts. My email scottcatherine@yahoo.com

http://dieselducks.com/Jerrys%2038Duck-2.html

http://dieselducks.com/Duck38study.html

http://dieselducks.com/stock%20plans.html

[VASCONY]

A Trawler Motorsailer or (Troller Yacht), Diesel Duck 38 - are very economical to run and sail with many used for bluewater cruising world wide. All are amature built and the least costliest way to get out there for the average guy.

A complete set of professional plans 17 sheets (24" x 36") for a low maintenance fiberglass/wood/epoxy Diesel duck 38 by reknown yacht designer George Buehler. Included on rolls are lofted to full-size most hull station molds.

As much as I planned and looked forward to beginning this interesting, fun as easily do-able project for a long time, at present building a Diesel Duck of my own is not in the cards. Therefore, I am offering for sale for some lucky person these plans for a bargin price and fraction of the original price of $500, plus postage or make offer. The DD38 plans originally sell for $2,295, see links to Buehler website below.

Also included are two books: Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilder, Boatbuilding by Chapelle. The Diesel Duck is George Buehler's most popular design with dozens of these sturdy homebuilt ocean going boats sailing the world; see links. Buehler's practical design permits an amateur to build a sturdy boat from scratch with ordinary materials, ordinary tools, custom built to your needs and taste, all for a fraction of the price of a new boat. They are also economical to run.

There is a member group of several Diesel Duck homebuilders sharing info and photos at Yahoogroup's BackyardBoatbuilders2". Buehler's book "The Troller Yacht" would also be a good book to have for building this boat which describes these type of trawler yachts.

Easy to build, lots of room for liveaboard cruising, and furnished to what ever your imagination can dream up. The oceans of the world will be your oyster, not just reserved for the mega-buck yachts. My email scottcatherine@yahoo.com

http://dieselducks.com/Jerrys%2038Duck-2.html

http://dieselducks.com/Duck38study.html

http://dieselducks.com/stock%20plans.html

I’ve always had great respect for this gentleman Ted Hood, so it was with great interest that I read of his latest project, the Expedition 55, in the Oct issue of Cruising World magazine.

What is most interesting is the apparent reluctance to use the term ‘motorsailer’. Instead the popular notion tends to be to call them expedition yachts….long range yachts “as capable under power as under sail”. I too could be accused of often using this ‘expedition’ term, but I’m still not afraid of the very descriptive word motorsailer. At any rate it is a pleasure to see these ocean capable cruising style vessels coming back to the forefront of sailing yacht design, in lieu of the ‘racer/cruisers.

I won’t get into all of the details of the article in Cruising World mag, but I will hi-lite a couple of the more interesting aspects. To facilitate a shallower draft he makes use of an older design know as the Scheel keel. And to better its windward performance he adds a centerboard to that keel. It will work great, but I wouldn’t want to maintain it. Imagine the stuff that will find its way into this slot at the bottom of the keel, and then how high you might have to raise the boat to get at the exposed board. I think I would opt for just the plain Scheel keel.

From a man who made his name in ‘sails’ (Hood Sailmakers was once the biggest loft in the world), it was pleasure to here him quoted, “he’s always felt that wide beam and large genoas were both good for performance and readily adaptable to cruising boats. At older ages we need power assist for these sails, so he added power furling to all of the sails including the mainsail. Vertical battens facilitate an in-mast furling system rather than a boom furling one.

He appreciates a nice size genoa sail for its power, as I have expounded for a number of years in my discussions of the slot effect and with my mast-aft design. His inner forestaysail is also tacked well aft of the headstay to add versatility to the sail plan.

A neat bit of seafaring subtlety lies behind the design of the inside steering station. The enclosure provides superlative shelter, but isn’t part of the interior volume of the vessel.

There is one other problem I find. When the young ‘marketing guys’ get there hands into it, there always seems to be a bit of a nudge to the upper end performance specs in order to compete with the multihull capabilities…sometimes to the point of exceeding displacement hull speeds

http://www.portsmouthmarine.com/Expedition55.htm

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1416555/0

Ted Hood, Designer & Builder
http://www.yachtworld.com/portsmouthmarine/portsmouthmarine_4.html (http://www.yachtworld.com/portsmouthmarine/portsmouthmarine_4.html)


What will be your oppinion about ATOA and Nordhavn's MS 56'
www.atoa64.com
www.nordhavn.com

[brian eiland]

What will be your oppinion about ATOA and Nordhavn's MS 56'
www.atoa64.com
www.nordhavn.com
Very briefly, I feel the ATOA vessel is very much more a well thought out motorsailer than the Nordhavn vessel. I consider the Nordhavn vessel an attempt to 'cash in' on the motorsailer concept in a time of rising fuel cost....not much of a sailer, nor true ocean crossing machine in big seas.

[Guillermo]

VASCONY,
here you have some numbers for ATOA: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=139790&postcount=221

I agree with Brian: I also prefer ATOA over Nordhavn 56.

Cheers.

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

Belatedly, I have read both the sites you link to at the bottom of your posts. Mea culpa! I should have gone there months ago.

Now, if anyone said to me today "Which motor sailer do you want?" I would have to reply "Gunboat 66". "Anathema", do I hear you reply? :) :) My rationale is that both under sail and power, it delivers performance and comfort almost to perfection. I greatly admire its reserved interior style. I posted the following elsewhere and, so far, no objections have been posted.

"Anyone interested in the Jacques Vabre 2007 Race Official website where ORMA 60 trimarans are beating the IMOCA 60 monohulls and yet the ORMAs (and the Class 50 trimarans) set off 24 hours after the IMOCAs. Scroll down the righthand side of the opening page and click on Charts. There are Class 40 monohulls and, as mentioned, Class 50 trimarans also racing and Crepes Whaou, the leading Class 50 is speeding at 18.8 knots past Safran, the leading IMOCA 60 that is currently at 14.1 knots. All the Class 40s are miles behind

I would love to have a Gunboat 66, when and if the next Jacques Varbre takes place and shadow the leading ORMA, probably Groupama 2, all the way to Bahia, Brazil and about a few miles from the finishing line, let the Gunboat have its head and surge past the trimaran, to take line honours, whilst having a good meal at the table and glugging the Bolly.

It's an eleven day passage, hardly time to get used to being at sea and the vessel would be on autopilot for 90% of the voyage. The helm is a joystick.

Some may argue that the Gunboat 66 will not have the speed, but a heavier Gunboat 62 has exceeded 36 knots. I'd be delighted to give it a go.

Pericles"

Am I dreaming? Absolutely! However, the dream does point out the essential difference between Catamarans and Trimarans, that there is much more available space in a Catamaran and far less spray. :p

Brian Eiland has been promoting Catamarans as passagemakers more than most and he has to be congratulated for his perseverance. It all helps to convince boat owners that if they wish to continue with pleasure boating, they will have to face reality on fuel prices and start hauling on the canvas.

Motorsailers that are 70% sail and 30% power will become the norm and modern Catamarans are already showing the way.

Pericles

[Guillermo]

Yes, Perry, modern cats have been proving to be a very nice option for all around cruisers. They have some drawbacks as are the higher initial cost, high berthing price at marinas and generally speaking higher maintenance costs. And, for all around cruisers, the lack of self-righting ability is also a minus in spite of all the enthousiastic positive arguing from the concept lovers.

After analyzing many of the present crusising cats, I come to the conclusion the great majority of them can be categorized as proper motorsailers from the propulsion point of view, so probably it's unnecessary to do so. In my opinion, I'd rather keep the term 'motorsailer' reserved as a category for monohulled boats, with a distinct emphasis for the pilothoused ones.

Cheers.

[marshmat]

I have read reports from many cat owners claiming the high berthing cost at marinas is not as big an issue as it is made out to be. Cat owners often seem to prefer to lie at anchor or on a mooring, far cheaper than a slip for such a boat, and the cat can often carry a better tender than a similar-sized monohull does.

I agree with Guillermo that the majority of sailing cats appear to perform well enough under engine that virtually all can be used as motorsailers, so there's not much point in using the term there. I, too, think of a motorsailer as being a monohull sailboat, often with somewhat higher superstructure and ideally a pilothouse, and with enough engine to achieve a decent cruise speed in mediocre weathere.

[Pericles]

Fair enough, let's keep the term Motorsailers for monohulls with pilothouses. Mooring and going ashore in a good sized tender is what I would have in mind, because the clamour from other vessels is minimized as well as saving money at the slip. As far as self righting is concerned, while monohulls often roll back upright in a knockdown, that 10K keel will sink the boat like a stone if it fills with water.:eek: :eek: :eek:

Cruising catamarans have a nearly flawless safety record. A well built, well designed boat is safer than its monohull cousins because of width, stability, and righting moment. Most cruising catamarans are unsinkable, and the foam core boats generally have enough flotation in the foam alone to keep the boat afloat many times over. Having enough speed in many cases to stay ahead of weather is another great safety bonus.

Racing catamarans and trimarans take calculated risks to push speeds to unbelievable levels. While these boats do end up upside down from time to time, rarely is anyone hurt.

Speeding downwind, even with bare poles, in a catamaran can be unsafe, so streaming a drogue aft should improve matters. Heaving to with head to wind with a sea anchor and with dagger boards raised, will allow the twin hulls to slide over and lift with each wave passing underneath as there are no keels to cause the vessel to trip. I suspect a modern catamaran will survive far worse weather than the crew can.;) ;)

I guess we can leave Brian Eiland to have both the first and last words in the matter of Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers. http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4499&page=11

Regards,

Perry

[brian eiland]

...I would love to have a Gunboat 66, when and if the next Jacques Varbre takes place and shadow the leading ORMA, probably Groupama 2, all the way to Bahia, Brazil and about a few miles from the finishing line, let the Gunboat have its head and surge past the trimaran, to take line honours, whilst having a good meal at the table and glugging the Bolly.

It's an eleven day passage, hardly time to get used to being at sea and the vessel would be on autopilot for 90% of the voyage. The helm is a joystick.

Some may argue that the Gunboat 66 will not have the speed, but a heavier Gunboat 62 has exceeded 36 knots. I'd be delighted to give it a go.
In a single-handed situation, I do find the trimaran configuration much more preferable for racing across the ocean. It is just more 'predictable' in heavy or gusty conditions.


Am I dreaming? Absolutely! However, the dream does point out the essential difference between Catamarans and Trimarans, that there is much more available space in a Catamaran and far less spray. :p
No question the catamaran form at larger sizes is more cruising friendly.

[Pericles]

Brian,

In my dream I'd have a full complement of 5 personnel plus me on board the Gunboat 66. :p :p :p :p We wouldn't be racing Groupama 2, only shadowing. Single handed and racing, I think I would still prefer a Catamaran, because for boats of equal length, I think (could be wrong here) the Catamaran is slightly quicker for reasons of less drag. I've seen videos of Trimarans flying on one sponson in calm waters and it was awe inspiring, but to finish first, first, you have to finish and such grandstanding in the cold South Atlantic? Brrrrr. :D

Best regards,

Pericles

[Guillermo]

Three 'Royal Kings' just 'caught together' at the Frisian islands (Skylge), by friend Hans S.

Fisher (43?), Banjer 37 and Dartsailer 38 (Hans') in a row.
Aren't they beautiful? :)

Cheers.

[charmc]

Beautiful and comfortable.

[OldYachtie]

"the foam core boats generally have enough flotation in the foam alone to keep the boat afloat many times over" - :o Actually, this is not true. Did you ever do the calcs for an actual catamaran and check this out? I have, and it wasn't true. A 65' boat with 5000 square feet of 1" thick core = 416 cubic feet = 26,666 pounds of displacement. On a cat there are lots of places to put some 2# polyurethane floatation foam, so you can give one positive floatation, but I wouldn't count on the structural core to provide it all without doing the math.

[Ronald]

The Noordkaper is an nice yacht with classic lines
She is ocean going, has a safe deckhouse and deck layout.
The Noordkaper is easy to handle an there is a range from 40 till 60 feet.

A hydraulic Centre board keel for a shallow draft and good sailing performance.
A engine room with place for a generator hydraulics and al you want.
Big tank capacity (in a 40 feet 900 litre diesel).
The boats are custom build you can have a interior who is fit to your personal wishes.
A perfect boat fore long cruising
See also on www.noordkaper.com

[brian eiland]

The Noordkaper is an nice yacht with classic lines
She is ocean going, has a safe deckhouse and deck layout.
www.noordkaper.com
You are right Ronald. She has sweet lines, particularly the 55 shown under classics heading.

[Ronald]

The 55 feet is a Noorderclassic indeed a nice design as well.
The Noorderclassic is not a motorsailor but the deckhouse is useful as well.

[RHP]

The Noordkaper is an nice yacht with classic lines
She is ocean going, has a safe deckhouse and deck layout.
The Noordkaper is easy to handle an there is a range from 40 till 60 feet.

A hydraulic Centre board keel for a shallow draft and good sailing performance.
A engine room with place for a generator hydraulics and al you want.
Big tank capacity (in a 40 feet 900 litre diesel).
The boats are custom build you can have a interior who is fit to your personal wishes.
A perfect boat fore long cruising
See also on www.noordkaper.com

I hope they provide storm boards for the wheelhouse windows.
There's so much glass there you could grow tomatos on the chart table.