If the members of this forum....

[Polarity]

OK here goes
My vote is for a racing sail boat - I'm a sailor and cruising boats tend not to be too radical. I also have some ideas for a specific race if we go this way!

[8knots]

My vote is for a power-cruser. I am biased of course. And the limited knowledge I have lies in that style. Unfortunatly I would not be able to participate or contribute much on a sailboat. Probably will not be much help anyway but i will try! I hope this gets a little more attention than the design competition Jeff is/was working on. I was dissapointed at the little interest shown to the prject. 8Kts

[Polarity]

In case the poll and the explanation get seperated - see this post (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439) - but please don't forget to vote!

Ta

[Stephen Ditmore]

I like the new Transpac 52 box rule. For an example go here:
http://www.andrewsyacht.com/deshome.htm
and click on the top link on the left.

I wonder if it's possible to design a boat that could sucessfully compete as both a Transpac 52 and an IMS 50
http://www.ims50.com/
http://www.ims50association.org/

Of course it might also be nice to design an unlimited trimaran, or even a proa!

Somehow in the powerboats I'm more into fast ferries than yachts right now, but I might get into the idea of a small commuter boat that could be used year 'round. In fact, perhaps that should be a theme - combining performance with comfortable year 'round use - a small boat for all conditions. It could be sail or power.

[duluthboats]

Interesting idea, but haven't you heard the one about to many cooks spoiling the stew. LOL!! Me, I voted power-cruser. But I'm into quiet, simple, and economical. I'm also an amature when it comes to design. Whatever you settle on you can bet I'll put my $.02 in. ;)
Gary

[Stephen Ditmore]

Actually, I'm getting into the idea of a power cruiser, too, after sleeping on it. Jimmy (James M., son of James S.) Krogen used to talk about designing a "trailerable trawler." I think the idea's interesting, and fits with my interest in year-round use. In fact, I'm tempted to put on the client hat right now and propose a boat to 8Knots, or anyone else.

The idea would be a displacement motor sailor about 26' x 8'-6" stabilized by water ballast that would be drained to lighten the boat for trailering. It need only sail downwind, when "I" feel like turning the engine off and quietly birdwatching. I'll motor to windward. The mast(s) should cantaliever like on Bolger's designs. She should be shoal draft enough for gunkholing but seaworthy enough for an outside passage. Primary use to be circumnavication of New York State by river, canal, Lake Ontario, St Lawrance Seaway, Lake Champlain, Lake George, and back down the Hudson in Autumn. Standing headroom in central pilot house. In the trunk cabin forward I want to wear a bo'sun's chair and suspend myself in a sitting position from a level track in the overhead while preparing meals. I think 4'-11" headroom would be right for this. I want to be able to erect a clear standing headroom enclosure aft when at anchor, but strike or close it when underway. I see no nead for a cockpit in the usual sense, but would like a flush aft deck (when enclosure is closed) with outside seating built into the railings. Comfortable double berth under the deck - cushions fold against sides and berth becomes cabin sole when deck is openned under enclosure. For inspiration I like the boats at
http://www.cmdboats.com/smlboat.htm
and
http://www.devlinboat.com/
I see it being powered by a Westerbeke diesel turning an AutoProp. I'd consider a "kitchen rudder"
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=418
but would also consider a 4 cycle gas or Yanmar diesel outboard. I invite discussion of construction method and all details. Want to take me up on the challenge?

[Stephen Ditmore]

These aren't exactly it, but they in the ballpark:
http://www.devlinboat.com/dckingfisher26.htm
http://www.devlinboat.com/dcsurfscoter25.htm
http://www.devlinboat.com/dcshearwater.htm
http://www.devlinboat.com/dccz30.htm

[duluthboats]

Well Stephen, you have my attention. Karl Strambaugh and Sam Devlin, are both high on my list of common sense designers. May I also suggest a look at William and John Aktkin's, Big Surprise. Or at least the Sea Bright hull form. A bo'sun's chair in the galley? :D I think sometimes it's hard not to laugh at a client. So do you have a material preference for the hull. Oh, just what is your budget sir? :)
Gary

[Stephen Ditmore]

I've said plenty, and am going to hold back a bit before offering my opinion on construction. After all, the idea is for it to be a group effort, not my assisted fantasy. What do you think we should build it out of? What's a reasonable cost target?

Concerning laughter, I find I laugh at the contortions people do when they have less than standing headroom. Why not move around in a sitting position suspended from a track on the ceiling?:p

[duluthboats]

Good point. OK, so if your going to trailer it, lets toss out plank on frame and traditional lapstrake. I think it would be a little large for glued lapstrake. So if the hull is to be wood then you have left, stitch and glue and cold molding. Both will give you a good hull with minimal tooling. Stitch and glue will limit the hull shape. Cold molding will add to the labor cost.
I’ll leave it to someone else to carry the water for FRP, or metal for a hull material. So what do the rest of you think?
Gary

[Polarity]

No one interested in a sail training vessel?, sail assisted Cargo ships (http://www.motorship.com/issues/news.asp?refno=910&publicationID=5) , sail assisted cruiseliners (Club Med (http://www.clubmedjobs.com/clubmedii.htm) One/Two - Eugh!), sail assisted submarines - well maybe not. Sail assisted tugs (http://www.schoonerman.com/rebel.htm) ...

Just thought I'd ask...

Paul

[duluthboats]

Come on Paul, the only reason cruising boats aren't radical is that nobody has asked for one. This baby going to have a bo'sun's chair in the galley. We sure could use your imput. When we get this one done we'll move on to the kevlar proa with the carbon fiber mast.

I see many have read this and a good handful have voted. We can use some help here. Don't worry, if we make a mistake we will hear from one of the NAs that visit here. Stephen has stated what he wants, what can we come up with.
Gary

[8knots]

OK.
I am all excited now!! Here is my list of novice questions. First I do not know much about ballast tanks, but what if the vessel in question was of a v-bottom design with a fair amount of dead rise say 20 deg to keep the cg low when tanks are full. Then if need be when time comes to head to port drain them off. To lighten her up a bit maybe enough to get her to semi-plane say 12-14 kts? Will this be a production design or a one-off built at Capt Willy’s Lil boat yard? I am thinking glass or aluminum at this point for weight reasons of course and maintenance. The little added speed at the sacrifice of a little sea keeping would be a good selling point to the type of customer who would want this kind of weekend cruiser. The 9-5 blue-collar type “ME” The v bottom would help in getting the craft on the trailer too! She will be of shoal draft as Stephan suggested, reinforcing the semi-displacement cause and to help with keeping her profile low when pulling behind a truck and at sea. What SAIL… bah, give me diesel or give me death! Just kidding guys, At this point I would have no idea how to devise a sail plan or calculate sail requirements. So I will leave that to the brains of the operation! Although I can envision a brown Old town canoe with a gaff rig and a blue tarp for a steering shelter. Do not forget the Sterno stove galley and the 5 gallon bucket :p Thanks Steve for the chance to join in!! 8Kts

[Gades]

I think that I know more about sailing boats than power boats. So it'd be easier for me to help in a sailing design.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind to learn more about power boats. I like the picnic boats a lot.

I don't know how much I could do, because I'm running late on my own project, though.

[Stephen Ditmore]

8Knots - I like your ideas, and I'd love to see a picture if you have the time. I'm not big on diesel vibration, though - I want the option of a sail when I want to move quietly and hear the birds sing & the water slosh around, at least for the next 10 years until fuel cells begin to be mass produced (Charles Allen, who was the senior draftsman at Krogen & Co. and last I heard was still working at Kadey-Krogen Yachts, couldn't get enough of diesels, so I'm well aware your kind exist!)

Polarity - as it happens I'm advising an effort to build a replica sailing vessel, though our idea is to seek full passenger certification, not sail training vessel status. I hope to have an initial design brief written in about a week, and we're looking for more people who want to get involved. The latest wrinkle is that Hubert Berti, associate of well known French sailing ship historian Jean Boudriot, is interested in getting involved, but doesn't speak English, so we're looking for someone to translate English-French. Would that be within your pervue?
See:
www.tallshipsacredromance.com
www.ancre.fr/index-e.htm
www.modelships.co.uk/Models/HMS_Surprise/

[Stephen Ditmore]

That last link should be:
http://www.modelships.co.uk/Models/HMS_Surprise/hms_surprise.html

[Stephen Ditmore]

Hey 8 (or anyone else). If you go to Tad's web site and click on "Sailboats" (assuming you can bring yourself), then click on "Sail 26" on the left you'll see a boat that I like a lot... but I'd see shortening the rig and making the masts fold, getting rid of the shrouds, getting rid of the fin keel, and making the pilothouse a little higher - making it a motorsailer with more emphasis on motor.

Any objection, Tad, to our being influenced by your work? Can we consider this your contribution?

[tom28571]

I got lost and did not look at any posts on the subject until now as I thought we were just deciding what to do as a result of the poll.

I like the idea of the cruising powerboat since that is what I have been interested in lately. My own boat is shown in the powerboat section under the Ultra lightweight powerboats thread. If we are talking about a displacement or semi-displacement boat, mine will not fit the bill although it is capable of cruising in the planing mode at any speed from about 9mph to 22mph. I did consider putting in some variable water ballast. That would allow a deeper V in the hull than the current 10 degrees of the aft monohedron section. One problem with this approach is that in order to have good (safe) running stability, the chines must remain well immersed or the thing will chine walk or some other bad thing.

What is gained is possible better heavy weather handling and comfort. The increased draft and lower performance requiring greater power seemed to be to big a price to pay.

One major consideration is the decision on maximum trailering weight if the boat is to be trailed. That will determine the limits on many aspect of the design.

Stephen, I like your ideas but I dislike motor sailors, especially ones with an emphasis on the motor. They seem to have the bad attributes of both without the good stuff.:)

[Stephen Ditmore]

O.K., I won't get too attached if someone wants to take this in a different direction. I like what I've seen of 8Knots' work, and Tad's, and your boat for that matter. I'd love to see something similar with an 8' to 8'-6" beam and a reasonable trailering weight that can be used year-round. Guess I'll just have to stick a mast on it myself.;)

-S

[Polarity]

....4 days to go with the voting...

--------

Re the trailerable sailing power boat I assume you have all seen the Mc Gregor 26 ? http://www.macgregor26.com/index.html

LENGTH: 25' 10"
24 MILES PER HOUR UNDER POWER
WEIGHT EMPTY: 2350 LBS
SLEEPS 6. ONE BERTH IS KING SIZE
WALK THROUGH TRANSOM
BUILT IN SAFETY FLOTATION
UNDER 8’ WIDE FOR LEGAL TRAILERING
TOW WITH STANDARD CARS
ALL FIBERGLASS CONSTRUCTION
FLOATS IN 9" OF WAER
LAUNCH AND RIG IN 10 MINUTES
WATER BALLAST SYSTEM: 1500 LBS
STORAGE FOR TWO 9 GALLON FUEL TANKS ..

----------

...this is going to be fun....

Paul

[Stephen Ditmore]

Si senor. A floating clorox bottle if ever there was one. Cockpit shallow & high, must be a little scary at full speed. I'd want more shelter in the winter, and in terms of styling I know we can do much, much better. The performance parameters and size are about right, though, as you point out.

[Polarity]

...Guys and girls.

Ahhhh yes I did not say it was pretty!

I love the description " a floating clorox bottle!" (that's bleach for those of you that don't speak American!) :)


Paul

HEY I just got promoted.. I feel old now.!

A floating clorox bottle if ever there was one
ROTFL :D

And this is a really great idea. I just wish I had time to get involved this month. What will be the final reslut? It will be interesting to watch this develop.

[tom28571]

Yes, there are a lot of those Mac 25's around. Someone must like them. No close friends of mine, I hope. Most that I have seen are powered with a 50hp outboard although I did see one with a big 70 stuck on the back end (they would not call it a transom). I doubt the 24mph claim though.

The moderator of the Trailer Sailor Forum had one for a while and wrote a review of it (it's still there I think). Not too flattering. He considered the construction as good as the looks. Dorox bottle! That's a good description and I don't even know what it is.:p

[Stephen Ditmore]

On subject of motorsailers, here's a famous one, Blue Leopard by Laurent Giles.
http://www.model-dockyard.com/deans/blue-leopard.htm
http://www.nyyc.org/AA_HTML_NEW/EntrantsTAC.html
http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/
That's what I'm thinking - a baby Blue Leopard - but a powerboat'd be O.K too as long as it has style. I still like Tad's 26' sailboat. Whatever it is, it should have that certain something.... should be able to wear a name like "Little Blue Leopard" proudly.

On another subject, I wonder if a boat like Blue Leopard could be built origami style? How 'bout an origami Bluenose Schooner, or an origami Etchells?

[Tad]

Lookout, Stephen is on a roll! :D


By all means use the 26' for a starting point. Every boat is based on some other boat. One of the reasons for the website is to illustrate that we can create boats of modern form, construction, and performance with a traditional feel. I can admire the performance of the MacGregor 26 but to me it is not a boat, it's a throwaway consumer product.

But Stephen; once you make your changes to the 26' (sensible as they are) you have something else, certainly not my boat. Will it still have that certain something? Perhaps, but it may resemble a collection of parts.

What makes Blue Leopard awesome is her proportions, those fantastic overhangs and the perfectly proportioned deckhouse. Also her clean simplicity, but I'm afraid a 26' Blue Leopard would be impractical, her waterline would be about 17.5'. Scaling big boats down is hard work!

On origami boat construction; yes, long skinny hulls would be ideal for the method. You would want to use aluminum for the light displacement hulls like Blue Leopard or the Etchells. The key is gradual increases in the girth measurements. But every steel origami hull I've seen had an ugly pucker where the pleat ended up forward. This is partly poor welding practice, but it would help if the beam was less and the hull finer lined.

All the best, Tad

[tom28571]

My thoughts are the same as yours Tad. Taking the Blue Leopard down to 26' would result in a cabin that you might be able to crawl through. Lots of compromises have to be made in order to make a boat do what we are talking about and still be pretty. It's hard and few have been able to pull it off.

At some point, we should stop looking at end product and think about the objectives that we want to satisfy with this boat. Being trained as an engineer, that is the way I like to approach a design. That is: how big, how much headroom and where: how heavy, what speed range, how much power, trailerable or not, economy of operation, operating area, cruising comfort provisions and other requirements that will show up.

For instance, I have no problem with 26' as a starting point, but can a good boat built to this size still be readily trailerable? Not merely moveable, but realistically trailerable over large distances by the average boatman with an average vehicle? If we assume that we have a pickup waiting in the driveway with a Cummins Diesel or magnum engine, no problem.

If we can decide on some of these parameters, it will keep us from introducing extraneous solutions that have no hope of meeting the fixed required parameters. As you know, even these have to be compromised sometimes since some of the original goals are likely to be incompatible with each other.

It's a lot easier and more satisfying to add a bit of size than to take some away. Sure has been for me in a different area.

Tom

[duluthboats]

Wow! this has been a surprise. I was almost certain that the stick and rag guys would run away with this poll. Over on WB forum I,m one of the few stinkpots.
Tom I agree if it is going to be trailerable, that will affect the design bigtime. That might have to be the subject of the next poll.
Gary

[Stephen Ditmore]

O.K., guys, now you're attributing things to me I never said. Never did I propose literally scaling down Blue Leopard, though on the subject of hard work I'm in the middle of working very hard to develop decent similitude equations at
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=327
and informed dialogue on that subject would be appreciated.
Also, please note that a design has been proposed at
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=456
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But Stephen; once you make your changes to the 26' (sensible as they are) you have something else, certainly not my boat. Will it still have that certain something? Perhaps, but it may resemble a collection of parts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, that's a danger, but so far at "the one hour sketch" thread I think we're off to a good start.

I hope you don't mind a little spirited debate. Cheers, all,
Stephen

[Tad]

It looks like the boat will be designed before the first results are in! Maybe the polls will have to be shortened.

See my comments in the one hour sketch thread.

All the best, Tad :)

[duluthboats]

Ok, this is somthing that I think might speed things up just a small amount. When we have a question that is to be decided by a poll, the question is posted, than we have two days of debate, than a one day poll. I'm already 50 years old and would like to work on more than one boat. ;) Some things could be agreed to by a simple yay or nay, in one day. I don't want to get to deep into rules and such, but this is a great collection of talent and I would like to see it grow.
I'm no artist, and a little slow on my CAD system but I'll keep up the best I can. You can count on me to state the facts as I see them. :D
Gary / AKA duluthboats

[Stephen Ditmore]

O.K., but let me add there's nothing to say the boat 8Knots started at my urging has to be "THE" boat. We can start another if the poll, or the debate, suggest another direction to explore.

[Polarity]

Tad and Duluth as they say in Spanish "tiene razon" - you're right.
When I posted the original format I thought about debate then poll or poll then debate - I did not expect it would generate such a interest in a short period of time !

I would suggest that we leave the polls open for a minimum of 2 days as not everyone gets to check in every day and there are not a few different time zones around here - we can roll that in with the debate time to keep things moving.

I can see that the designers are itching to start designing, but I would suggest that we keep with the polls as otherwise we will be tempted to head off down the path of the first question...:confused:

By having the exact direction be unpredictable (ie a poll of 300) I hope it will keep generating new ideas, questions and opportunities for input - and not a few upsets and surprises. :)
Meanwhile of course everything that gets generated along the way will no doubt continue with a life of its own - 8 has already started a living breathing project (and a great looking boat!) from just one poll.

...(Stephen posted whilst I was writing this!)...

If nobody objects I will post a new poll tomorow... - so a quick debate beforehand
- assuming that "cruising powerboat" wins..
what should the next question be (Tom already touched on one option)...Ideas please

[Gades]

Hi,
I'd like to contribute to the design as well. If you don't mind.

Stephen, could you please explain me a little bit how things would work out? I mean that I don't really know how to handle all this.

[Stephen Ditmore]

Hi, Fernando, welcome back!

I'll leave the process issues to Paul ("Polarity"), as I'm notoriously impatient with buracracy. I'm also notoriously literal, and deal better with questions if they're real specific. Have you seen
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=456
? What do you want to know from me? I guess if you want to contribute a variation on that boat I'd say do it at that thread. If you'd like to propose another design idea or talk about process...
Is this the right place to do that, Paul?

[Gades]

HI Stephen, thanks

the boat in that thread looks interesting to me. I haven't seen any one like it, though.
But I'd definetly like to try something new (I'm stuck with my project :( )

>>What do you want to know from me?

how a design process would work. When I've been at a design office, I've seen how they did a bit each one. But the were sitting like two meters one from each other. First someone did parametric study, then they did a bit the interior, and so on... (it depended on the type of boat how they'd follow their design process). I guess you know a lot more about all this. That's why I ask you.
Let's say we decide to work on that boat (the 8's one). How would we design the lines; let's say that you're good at that and then you try and we discuss about your results; and that I'm better at doing some modelling, so I'd try to do so following everyone's directions. Is this what we're talking about? How would you think it shold be?
Paul, shouls I live this post in here or somewhere else?

[Polarity]

Hi Fernando !

Hope your catching up with your project.

Re your question, my suggestions would be:

Questions and suggestions about the polling, designing process etc to the BD-1 Project Thread (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439)

Suggestions/discussion etc for the one hour sketch (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=456) to that post

Reasons for voting one way or another, suggestions for the next poll etc. to the poll concerned eg this one! (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=441)
(now I cant remember which thread Im posting in)

and as 8knts did, post up a new thread for a new design based on the results/discussion so far.

As for how this will all work and what we end up designing and who inputs and how ... Who knows??? - That's part of the fun - nobody is really in control!

Best


Paul

[8knots]

Fellow boat nuts,
First off I feel I have stirred up a little rats nest. For this I am sorry! I should have kept the pencil put away till the poll was over. This is the first and only forum I have posted to. I trust the opinions and experience of all of you here. My understanding of design has expanded 10 fold in the past few months since I have been a member of this group. For this I have nothing but gratitude! I have been scratching out boats by FEEL for years. Now thanks to all of you I am getting closer to understanding the math to my designs. I hope my posting the 1-hour will not give you all the impression that I am being presumptuous. I just got a little too excited! Any justified reason to draw a boat will get me going for hours. Reading and learning from the forum is the highlight of my day!
(8Kts) :rolleyes:
I intend to follow the lead of the project creator (PAUL) in order to keep things in line.

[Polarity]

I can only speak for me but this is great! The whole idea was to provide a little stimulation - design, learning and looking at new angles just for the fun of it!

I am sure that there will be a resounding echo to this but KEEP POSTING THE IDEAS AND SKETCHES!! :D
The polls will move on! Who knows what the final design criteria will be, but your "one hour" I am sure will continue - I am also sure it wont be the last sketch posted up for discussion.

I totally agree: Re
:--------------
My understanding of design has expanded 10 fold in the past few months since I have been a member of this group
---------------

For example I just posted up the interior layout I made in a solid/surface modeler (Rhino) - I would never have even thought of or attempted that without the groups encouragement!

Cheers.

Paul

[Barry]

How about a 30 -32 twin volvo diesel duo prop sportfisher style
A fuel burner no doubt but its is hard to find the time to go somewhere at 10 knots. 14-16 degree V, wide beam for lift and
efficiency, table seating with a view, 400 mile range and of course
built out of aluminum. The upper command bridge enclosed to keep the northern Canadian elements out.

[Jeff]

Some forum notes:

Tom Speer has proposed an interesting project, a proa design for handicapped sailors (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=472). Since this thread is fairly old now and the poll has closed heavily favoring a power design for cruising, and at Stephen's request, I've split the proa design proposal for mobility-challenged sailors into a new thread so it doesn't get lost:

See: http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=472

Paul has also now posted the second poll relating to the collaborative deisgn project – What will we use our power cruiser for? So far it looks like "Coastal hopping for a week" will win by a landslide, but if you haven't already voted, please head on over to that thread as well.

See: http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=464

Thanks to everyone who has participated so far. And don't hesitate to join in at any time if you're reading this. And thanks once again to Paul for getting this started.

It will be exciting to see how this project shapes up. It has already generated some neat design ideas (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=456) and I can't wait to see what happens from here.