View Full Version : Doomsday boat.


river runner
04-29-2012, 02:11 AM
There is a show on the discovery channel called (I believe) Doomsday Bunkers. It is about preppers preparing for a breakdown in society when it's every man (family) for himself. Maybe a better, or at leas alternative, solution to an underground bunker would be a boat. Something that would get you away from land where most of the chaos is taking place.
What form would this boat take? What would the parameters be?
It would probably need to fairly large because you might need to stay away from land for quite a while. Would it need to be fast, to escape pirates, or just heavily armed and armored? Sail or power? Etc.

Boston
04-29-2012, 02:34 AM
submarine, otherwise pirates would eventually just take it from you. Even at that you'd need an early warning system, proximity alarm, so you could dive away from trouble if you needed to. My thinking is that no amount of arms will help if your just a family on a boat. You gotta be able to get away somehow, like submerge. Preferably with some way to torpedo the bastads and then come back up at your leisure

Frosty
04-29-2012, 02:49 AM
Yeah a submarine would be good. you would be able to sail around new York Harbour without no one noticing you and the navy would not care about it,----much.

Mind you this would be only for a few minutes till they homed in on you then you would be blown up.

PAR
04-29-2012, 08:16 AM
There's really no such thing as a bunker or boat that could solve all the potential situations you'd find yourself in, given an end of society as we know it type of thing. Eventually, you'd run out of ammo, food, fuel, water, etc. and would have to expose yourself to the will of the fruit-loops that dream this sort of stuff up.

Squidly-Diddly
04-29-2012, 01:24 PM
using home made devices.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/crusing-sailboat-any-size-bug-out-option-zombie-apocalypse-42018.html

I've thought of submersible (tethered to surface float?) lifeboats for riding out sever storms.


As mentioned, the trick to "doomsday boat"(surface sailboat) would be sailing past the horizon/coastal region and into 'empty' water before Zombies swarm the harbor.

Lots of "empty water" off N CA coast where few dare to venture besides commercial fishermen.

Might be a lot harder to 'be lonely' off FL coast where there are lots of close by destinations and lots of low-lifes with speed boats.

Boston
04-29-2012, 02:33 PM
wave heights are increasing dramatically from N CA all the way up through the PNW, so probably not a great place to hang out for extended periods of time.

I'm thinking there's really no where to hide on the ocean and eventually once spotted, your done for. The way to survive is think community on solid ground, I'll watch your back if you watch mine, having found a defensible structure or area. Although the point is moot given the rapid advance of Climate Shift far beyond any of the IPCC predictions. these last few years.

upchurchmr
04-29-2012, 02:41 PM
Please shift this c*** to the Bilge, you fooled me again.

portacruise
04-29-2012, 03:46 PM
Bos:

Taken that the whole premise survival with anarchy is silly, this community approach is certainly the best approach! The ancient, nuclear bomb shelter approach by a small extended family unit stocked to the hilt with survival stuff/guns won't cut it. Disgusting to think, but organized crime units would be the most likely to survive in such a scenario!

Just getting to a prepared location/boat would be impossible from a big city- look what happened when they tried to evacuate Houston ahead of a recent hurricane- parking lot! Hiding on the ocean depends on stealth, so the only practical choices are semi- submersibles and hidden coves on the shoreline, if you can even get there... Should you happen to get there, then you have storms, winds, supplies, renewable power need, etc. to contend with, not even counting hostilities.

Porta


wave heights are increasing dramatically from N CA all the way up through the PNW, so probably not a great place to hang out for extended periods of time.

I'm thinking there's really no where to hide on the ocean and eventually once spotted, your done for. The way to survive is think community on solid ground, I'll watch your back if you watch mine, having found a defensible structure or area. Although the point is moot given the rapid advance of Climate Shift far beyond any of the IPCC predictions. these last few years.

WestVanHan
04-29-2012, 06:11 PM
As they say in real estate-location location location.

CatBuilder
04-29-2012, 06:58 PM
As they say in real estate-location location location.

+1

And... due to the lack of food at sea, land is the only place for survival.

When on a boat, few people realize it takes an enormous amount of resources and money to get everything you need:

1) Anchors and chain
2) Food
3) Water
4) Parts for the propulsion system, be it sail, diesel, outboard or steam
5) Navigation - no GPS in the zombie apocalypse


All cost money or require you to trade with people on land to get what you need to live.

Much better to hide away on land. At least a human can be self sufficient there.

WestVanHan
04-29-2012, 07:03 PM
+1

All cost money or require you to trade with people on land to get what you need to live.

Much better to hide away on land. At least a human can be self sufficient there.

You are 99.99 % correct,but there are places where unlimited food and water are free,and you benefit from both land and sea. :)

CatBuilder
04-29-2012, 07:30 PM
You are 99.99 % correct,but there are places where unlimited food and water are free,and you benefit from both land and sea. :)

Yes, I have a few of those in mind as well, since you know I live full time on boats. :)

Still, you are less visible way out in the middle of nowhere on land (I don't subscribe to a "community" ethic for survival). Also, if you have a boat, you will need those anchor chains, etc.... You aren't forging anchor chains and welding in the woods. You have to trade with possible threats for all of that unnecessary stuff in a survival situation.

A boat is a liability in a survival situation.

A true survival situation is just you - naked - and without food or shelter.

IMO, that's what you need to be ready for in these end of the world scenarios. Boats will just trip you up as you need to spend all your valuable calories acquiring food, drinking water and shelter, not maintaining a boat. Plus, in these zombie apocalypse scenarios, you are probably going to have to play some defense. You're a sitting duck on a boat anywhere near land. Everyone can see you for miles and miles and (kilometers) around.

Of course, that situation changes with a well found sailing boat (or extreme range power boat). If you are always, 100% of the time, well stocked and ready to cross an ocean, a boat becomes a good too to escape a local problem. :)

messabout
04-29-2012, 07:38 PM
Kevin Costner already did a movie about this scenario. Bad guys were everywhere and always trying to get best of him. He had a tri that went fast enough to elude the pirates most of the time. In the case of the movie, the earth was covered with water so that not much land was above water....Mountains like K12, and Everest were OK. The movie did not detail the source of potable water. If you have not seen the movie, don't bother, it was a turkey.

PAR
04-29-2012, 07:42 PM
. . . The movie did not detail the source of potable water . . .

Condensed pee . . .

and I liked the movie, except for the ridiculous rig on the tri.

portacruise
04-29-2012, 08:34 PM
As they say in real estate-location location location.

Yes, very short term, IF one can time it perfectly to be there already, before things were to fall apart.

Funny to see the bunker mentality on that TV show by people who appear on the verge of needing medical help, means kidnapping a physician should be first on their list :-)

Only hope would be quick stabilization, which would be most likely, IMHO.

Back to the 1600's we have:

"No man is an island"

No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.


John Donne

P.

Frosty
04-29-2012, 09:39 PM
Kevin Costner already did a movie about this scenario. Bad guys were everywhere and always trying to get best of him. He had a tri that went fast enough to elude the pirates most of the time. In the case of the movie, the earth was covered with water so that not much land was above water....Mountains like K12, and Everest were OK. The movie did not detail the source of potable water. If you have not seen the movie, don't bother, it was a turkey.


It was also a huge flop and very nearly bankrupted Costner, which was the best bit.

Boston
04-29-2012, 11:09 PM
yup, if I remember it went way over budget and then didn't do that well at the box office. So he rented himself out on the next few movies if I remember and ended up making a fortune with Dances With Wolves. I think, might have been some other movie like The Post Man or something. Don't really follow the Hollywood scene very closely

In any case the best Dooms Day boat so far I think is the well armed submarine protecting an inaccessible coast line with a small community stashed in the foothills.

WestVanHan
04-29-2012, 11:24 PM
A boat is a liability in a survival situation.

Boats will just trip you up as you need to spend all your valuable calories acquiring food, drinking water and shelter, not maintaining a boat.

You're a sitting duck on a boat anywhere near land. Everyone can see you for miles and miles and (kilometers) around.



Nope.

Nope and nope.

And Nope!


Yes, very short term,




There's a link in this thread to another thread,read my post-#9- in there.

BPL
04-29-2012, 11:28 PM
Charter sailboat in a remote port where there is also a need to get from Point A to Point B and back.

viking north
04-30-2012, 12:28 AM
A small dory, some fishing line, a wilderness cove located where some hunting and a little gardening can be done. Already have the tools-guns--ammo--rabbit snares sealed and hidden---and no don't want any male company, want to procreate to keep the species going---:D

Frosty
04-30-2012, 03:33 AM
Charter sailboat in a remote port where there is also a need to get from Point A to Point B and back.


Dont bother chartering , just steal it. Oh and pick the best of the fleet seeing as if your not going to pay for it.

Infact this stealing thing will probably become quite popular, might as well get used to it. Taking sweets of kids and robbing grannies will be daily routine.

If your going to do a bit of looting ,--could you get me a new colour telly flats screen, 44 would be ok.

whitepointer23
04-30-2012, 04:15 AM
i think the line between reality and fiction is a bit blurry here. i prefer to think about what is important now, not silly scenarios for something which won't happen anyway.

Enforcer
04-30-2012, 04:31 AM
If you had a big enough boat, you could survive for years without land.
You would need a lot of stores, desalination (several) units and enough fuel.
Find a deserted area, you have a limitless supply of water and you could grow vegies on the boat. With bulk stores and fishing, you could live for a long time.
If there was a major apocolypse, then a boat would be my first choice. I would just wander down tot he superyacht marina with my shotgun and pick the biggest and best superyacht and take it.

whitepointer23
04-30-2012, 04:34 AM
If you had a big enough boat, you could survive for years without land.
been done before, according to believers.

BPL
04-30-2012, 05:01 AM
I don't believe in stealing.
Any planning I did would be for hauling or trading transport in exchange for food and supplies I needed.

i prefer to think about what is important now, not silly scenarios for something which won't happen anyway.Agree

CatBuilder
04-30-2012, 05:22 AM
If you had a big enough boat, you could survive for years without land.
You would need a lot of stores, desalination (several) units and enough fuel.
Find a deserted area, you have a limitless supply of water and you could grow vegies on the boat. With bulk stores and fishing, you could live for a long time.
If there was a major apocolypse, then a boat would be my first choice. I would just wander down tot he superyacht marina with my shotgun and pick the biggest and best superyacht and take it.

Laughable. So where do you get your new pre filters, membranes and high pressure pump?

Guess you guys are just dreaming. I actually spent 2 years attempting to be self sufficient on a boat. It cannot be done without land support.

Fishing? Also laughable. Mercury pollution has ruined that food source as a sole protein of your diet.

Superyacht? Where are you buying diesel? Do you think superyachts are unarmed? Come steal my boat and you and your friends will all die - and its not even a superyacht.

Guess this is a bunch of office folk dreaming. Try actually doing this stuff and you will see how good these boat based survival theories hold up.

Enforcer
04-30-2012, 05:57 AM
Mate if you knockoff a big enough boat you could have 100's kg of meat, fruit and veg in cans, salted and frozen (kept cold with solar power). This would keep most people alive for years with supplemental food grown on board and caught....you could also eat birds.
It is a bit of a open ended question that we can throw ideas around.

river runner
04-30-2012, 09:10 AM
I am no prepper, but I can see some possible scenarios where society could break down for a period of time. Just look at New Orleans after Catrina or some of the riots in places like L.A. I'm a little worried about what is going to happen if Obama is re-elected. I'm on the email list of an ex submariner, extreme right winger and some of the stuff he forwards is pretty scary. I think most of you would be surprised at how many people think they would have a right to take over the governement if Obama get's elected. Another senario involves oil. We are going to run out. It's just a matter of when. An awful lot of people are in denial about it, so we aren't preparing for that day the way we should. The day will come when gas supplies are extremely short and the price of a gallon is something like $20. You don't think things will get ugly? Gangs will be roaming the streets. They might burn your house down just for kicks. Or kill you. Just picture the L.A. riots and picture that happening on your street.
The ocean is a very big place to hide and the population density is vastly less than on land with an endless supply of food in the form of fish and an endless supply of water, if you have a desalinator.

viking north
04-30-2012, 10:03 AM
I agree as a matter of fact I know a big boat is not the answer other than transport to a remote location and that is not anywhere where you presently have a large population within 500 miles. ( Pitcarin Island ring any bells). Another factor that would be in your favour with proper fore planning would be an area of distinct seasons. A bad winter would eliminate alot of competition. Also don't underestimate any quazi remote area that you might have grown up in. I.E. Sea people, mountain people, farming people, tend to band together and help each other which of course is not true of dog eat dog city folk. Gated communities folk are more messed up yet as I think they trust no one not even their own ability to get along with their fellow humans so these are your last choice.

BATAAN
04-30-2012, 12:15 PM
There's really no such thing as a bunker or boat that could solve all the potential situations you'd find yourself in, given an end of society as we know it type of thing. Eventually, you'd run out of ammo, food, fuel, water, etc. and would have to expose yourself to the will of the fruit-loops that dream this sort of stuff up.

I'd love a submarine for the job, preferably nuclear powered to delay re-supply problems....
A little closer to reality, a steel or heavy wooden sailing vessel with a crew of ten armed with AK-47s, some .50 cal Brownings in armored deck mounts and lots of RPGs would take care of most of the pirate problems.
Heck, with that set up you could go into business selling 'protection' against pirates, I mean, who's going to say no?
It's hard to feed, pay and entertain that crew of cut-throats you hired to protect yourself and others against pirates, so hard you might have to turn pirate yourselves, just as a matter of survival necessity of course, not for fun or profit.
-
Like the lone-wolf weapon hoarder who is ready for 'anything', excepting three determined and experienced soldiers trained in infantry tactics from whom he will soon learn how un-ready he is, those who expect to sail/drive/hike/run away from social chaos are fooling themselves, because it's very difficult to survive alone.
Just ask any infantryman cut off from his squad in combat.
That is why we invented society, and live in groups, even small ones, but always groups, usually based on family and neighbors.
As humans have learned over the last several million years, our power lies in our ability to communicate and act as one, not run off and hide alone.
That brings down mammoths with enough sharp sticks and feeds all, and it keeps a group of people strong, whereas individually we are very weak.
It's time to work together and avoid the situation that set this discussion off in the first place.
Against disease, war, global climate change, even asteroids, we have a chance of surviving and thriving if we would just work together instead of being at each others' throats over greed, religion, politics and race.
-
Eventually we will all run out of ammo and preserved food and Bic lighters if the supply chain stops so it's back to bark canoes for survival boats.
Come to think of it, they did pretty good.

BATAAN
04-30-2012, 12:30 PM
Personally, I went through this thought process in the 70s, and designed and built this boat as a result.
But I was young and naive then and really thought I could live off the sea and what I grew on the boat.
And I tried hard, raising three kids aboard.
30-some years later, I'm a bit wiser about the whole thing.
A boat needs a port, and that's where the problems start.
You can't just stay at sea indefinitely.
The watermaker stops working, you're low on fuel and bad weather is coming, or you broke an oil line and dumped the oil in the bilge and are out of spare, or a sail was neglected and flogged itself to ribbons, it's always something and then something else and then three more things at once that send you to port for repair and resupply.

CatBuilder
04-30-2012, 01:06 PM
Bataan obviously has experience. He has been there and done that. So have I.

You guys are just dreaming. While you are struggling to find diesel to power your watermakers, I'll make a toast to you with the big cup of water I have on land.

If you think it's possible to live off a boat in a survival sense, you have obviously never actually done it.

BATAAN
04-30-2012, 01:42 PM
My family and I sailed for a few weeks in the Marquesas with a family of four on a very simple 35' cat on their circumnavigation and we ate a lot of coconuts and fish, but still had to find rice and bananas somewhere too.
In the tropics, literally all our water for 7 people in 100 degree temperatures came from the clever 'rain tarp' possible on a catamaran without a pilot house.
There's some footage of this in the footage below.
-
If you're interested in survival/remote sailing experiences, check out these videos and see us eating land crabs, climbing for coconuts etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34w2pX8jDg8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlF1UG9VLiQ
-
And this one, which shows how the actual people who live off the land in these remote areas without Safeway or 7/11 do so....
It's called "Goat Hunt on Ua Po".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hln1qrXuItE
-
And here is Allen Farrell, who at age 86 was still prowling BC beaches in mid-winter barefoot collecting Fir bark (burns like coal) from the beaches for the wood stove on CHINA CLOUD, his engineless, junk-rigged, shallow draft floating home that sails like a witch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw6mdrcDL1o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFb3AfxxgO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBDOUSd-Ag
-
All this footage shows a little slice of the reality of small boat, big ocean, hungry crew etc.

Squidly-Diddly
04-30-2012, 02:20 PM
the total lack of anyone successfully 'holding out' against fairly weak and primitive Communist "community organizers".


I really don't think in SHTF you will have many, if any "bad guys" going after frumpy small cruising sailboats, as long as you don't have any hot babes topside, and that is even when in harbor and heading out under bridges, etc.

The "bad guys" will go for the Go Fast and pimp boats, which in THEORY could run you down, but in practice my guess it will turn into war between other Bad Guys wanting each other's boats.

With a little 'brass' and finesse, you could probably have them thinking they could use you as a source of intel as to boats of real value, and they would give you their radio frequency.


For "Doomsday Boat", I understand Bataan's point, so I'm thinking more "On The Beach"(post nuclear war escape to OZ) rather than "Waterworld" (terrible movie with Kevin Costner that lost 100million).

messabout
04-30-2012, 02:32 PM
A stimulating philosophic conversation going on here, gentlemen. It is stimulating to learn about some of your experiences and mindsets.

Having only limited experience with big boats I'd be drawn, necessarily, to small craft. Beach cruising then. Here in Florida I could manage unless the alligators or pythons ate me. I'd really miss pizza and beer however.

I expect that fellows like Viking North could survive for quite a while with the use of his 18 foot dory for shoreline foraging. He'd catch a few finfish, scoop up some shellfish, and gather some low water sea vegetation like dulce, alaria, and such. In the summer months near shore excursions could find some berries and other edible vegetation for sustenance. Many ot the rest of you could do that if forced to do so.

I kind of liked that other survival movie with Tom Hanks and his only companion, Wilson, who was, in fact, a volleyball.

DStaal
04-30-2012, 03:12 PM
A large sail boat, able to be sailed moderately shorthanded, and with large holds. A few small-arms and some ammo; enough to stand off a few rounds of small gas speedboats. Bows and arrows might work, for that matter.

Set out, and take one long sail; several months if you can manage it without hitting port. Let the gangs stabilize a bit and burn through their ammo/gas stores.

After that don't plan on living on your own resources: The plan is to find/create trade routes between other survivors. The weapons are for self-defense while exploring for safe harbors. Long term your safety is that it's worth more to be able to have someone bring in cotton/spices/silk/etc. regularly than it is to take one shipment. :cool:

WestVanHan
04-30-2012, 03:15 PM
Bataan obviously has experience. He has been there and done that. So have I.

You guys are just dreaming. While you are struggling to find diesel to power your watermakers, I'll make a toast to you with the big cup of water I have on land.

If you think it's possible to live off a boat in a survival sense, you have obviously never actually done it.

Creeks run into the oceans..



Guess you guys are just dreaming. I actually spent 2 years attempting to be self sufficient on a boat. It cannot be done without land support.

Fishing? Also laughable. Mercury pollution has ruined that food source as a sole protein of your diet.






Coastal areas with no roads and an over abundance of life,Viking lives close to such an area and so do I.

Just because you tried in the wrong locale doesn't mean the entire world is unsuitable and all the fish in the world are mercury polluted.

Yet again,location.

SheetWise
04-30-2012, 04:05 PM
I think Jack Bauer and Angus MacGyver would survive in a revolution -- even on a boat. They could pull it off.

My advice? Become more like Bauer and MacGyver. You will survive on your wits!

While I'm thinking about it .. the Road Runner would probably survive as well -- but Wile E. Coyote may be a better role model.

As you can tell, I'm deep in thought on this subject ...

erik818
04-30-2012, 04:57 PM
First of all, defend organized society so it doesn't fail. If society fails anyway for whatever reason, we have to start over and reorganize it from local communities that eventually grow into nations. I don't believe in sailing or running away from the problem and hope for someone else to stabilize and organize the society while I'm hiding out.

A boat is a good thing to have if you need to escape to a better place, but then there has to be a better place and they will have to let you in. Too many ifs.

Erik

pdwiley
04-30-2012, 06:37 PM
Bataan obviously has experience. He has been there and done that. So have I.

You guys are just dreaming. While you are struggling to find diesel to power your watermakers, I'll make a toast to you with the big cup of water I have on land.

If you think it's possible to live off a boat in a survival sense, you have obviously never actually done it.

Agree. I did the back to the land thing in the 80's. Hard work. Little reward.

Now I've got better land on the waterfront. I'd still have a big problem surviving long-term even *with* the collaboration of my neighbours. I know what'd happen though - I'd be the engineering works and build/maintain stuff for the farmer types. We'd be doing specialisation on a smaller scale as that's how human communities work.

On a small boat away from other people? Hah. What are you going to do when your expensive synthetic sails fall apart from UV degradation? Where are you going to get your antifouling paint from? Come to that, for most of the boats built these days, where are you going to haul out to apply that paint? At least my boat can sit on its own bottom & be careened.

Oh yeah, better hope you never get a bad tooth, either.

As for the optimists who think they can wander down and grab a boat at gunpoint, what makes you think we boat (and land) owners don't also have guns and, more likely, are far better at using them than you are? Not only that, I can *make* them if I have to, anything from a 22LR up to a 50mm or bigger breech-loader.

Come on. Get real.

BTW, I also live somewhere with rich food resources and a small population. I just have a better grasp of what it takes to keep a 21C society running.

PDW

CatBuilder
04-30-2012, 07:10 PM
Coastal areas with no roads and an over abundance of life,Viking lives close to such an area and so do I.

Just because you tried in the wrong locale doesn't mean the entire world is unsuitable and all the fish in the world are mercury polluted.

Yet again,location.

Many of Viking's fish are poisoned thanks to coal. If he expects to live, he can't eat:

*Any Fresh Water Fish
*Striped Bass
*Tuna
*Marlin
*Bluefish
*Swordfish
*Shark

Also, most of the fish he can eat are located offshore - well offshore. That takes fuel and sails which you will have to buy, thus, you are not surviving, you are just playing around.

If there is a toxic algae bloom and he doesn't know about it (because society isn't babying him with warnings anymore), he could possibly die from harvesting his local shellfish.

If you rely on others, you are not doing "survival" stuff. You are just half assing it.

I know Viking North's waters better than any other waters in the world. I have spent the majority of my time in them.

And actually... yes, most of the fish in the *entire world* are indeed ruined:

http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/mercury/guide.asp

Add ciguatera to that and fish start to become a very difficult prospect for long term survival.

You guys have no experience doing this. You're just imagining it from your comfy chair. I've done it. PDW has done it. Bataan has done it. We all say it's not possible. Try to live off the sea/land from a boat for a couple years and see if you can make it without buying anything.

Then, post your story here and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong. :D

Thing is, boats require maintenance and they are not made from materials readily available at sea or up a creek/river. You have to buy the materials.

Only alternative is to run a true wooden boat and keep on replanking from trees you fell. You would have been much better off just sitting on the shore because you are wasting energy on a boat when you don't have extra time/energy.

Again, just try it. You have to try it to see if it can be done. All of us that have tried it will tell you it can't be done.

BATAAN
04-30-2012, 08:00 PM
Not too long ago, before 1914, there was an existing system of interdependent small ports that shipped bulk coastal cargoes by sailing vessel, most of them wood, and the owners made money at it, and crews of coasters were much better fed and paid than deep water sailors.
Wood boats just need an axe, a saw, trees and a lot of energy and presto, you have a small sailing ship capable of carrying goods to any reasonable tidal beach.
Here are some survival boats....

viking north
04-30-2012, 09:34 PM
Catbuilder, fish poisioned by coal ??? Toxic algea blooms ??? Fish far off shore ??? Any fresh water fish ??? Ahhh you don't know my waters,(not Nova Scotia) you have not sailed far enough north otherwise these things you would not question. In addition to large stocks of fish there are large stocks of wild game of which snaring rabbits would require the least expended energy. That plus the highest energy meat in the world--seals of which on last count there were 12,000,000. They arrive along shore in large numbers on drifting pans of ice in early spring, perfect timing to suppliment the dwindling winter rations. I know we're just having fun here, but there was a time during the cold war many planned this survival game and in reality it's still not a bad idea. We keep a years supply of food on hand, have done so during and since the cold war days. Not so much in prep. for society breaking down on it's own accord and going to hell in a handcart but triggered by a natural disaster. One super volcano, a rock from space, or something as simple as a total corn crop failure could trigger some majour unrest and critical shortages of food.

Fish poisioned by coal ? I have to ask how and where did that come from-- Possibly you meant the coal burning industrial acid rain riding on the south easterly prevaling winds killing the fresh water rivers and lakes. Thats pretty well a dead issue now that most manufacturing has gone overseas-- even the salmon runs are returning to the rivers in Maine.

pdwiley
04-30-2012, 09:43 PM
Not too long ago, before 1914, there was an existing system of interdependent small ports that shipped bulk coastal cargoes by sailing vessel, most of them wood, and the owners made money at it, and crews of coasters were much better fed and paid than deep water sailors.
Wood boats just need an axe, a saw, trees and a lot of energy and presto, you have a small sailing ship capable of carrying goods to any reasonable tidal beach.


Sure.

However, the axe(s), saw(s), chisels, planes etc are or contain steel, which is made from iron ore, needs limestone and coal and a bunch of other things, which require mines which require lots of people and then blast furnaces which require yet more people and those people need to eat so agriculture has to be efficient enough so one farmer can support 5 to 10 non-farmers and so it goes.

I haven't even touched on the distribution system.

This is the same problem those Utopian Green types run into in their quest for a world where we all 'live at one with nature' but somehow have all the comforts of a 21C technology. Reality.

PDW

pdwiley
04-30-2012, 09:53 PM
Catbuilder, fish poisioned by coal ??? Toxic algea blooms ??? Fish far off shore ??? Any fresh water fish ??? Ahhh you don't know my waters,(not Nova Scotia) you have not sailed far enough north otherwise these things you would not question. In addition to large stocks of fish there are large stocks of wild game of which snaring rabbits would require the least expended energy. That plus the highest energy meat in the world--seals of which on last count there were 12,000,000. They arrive along shore in large numbers on drifting pans of ice in early spring, perfect timing to suppliment the dwindling winter rations. I know we're just having fun here, but there was a time during the cold war many planned this survival game and in reality it's still not a bad idea. We keep a years supply of food on hand, have done so during and since the cold war days. Not so much in prep. for society breaking down on it's own accord and going to hell in a handcart but triggered by a natural disaster. One super volcano, a rock from space, or something as simple as a total corn crop failure could trigger some majour unrest and critical shortages of food.

Look. The Inuit lived in that territory for a hell of a long time before Western Europeans arrived. Take a close look at their population density and their frequency of moves to follow the game and tell me you can maintain anything more complex than a skin kayak.

It can't be done. Do you think that you are better at surviving in that environment than they were?

As for rabbits, it is a well known fact that you will starve to death if all you have to eat is rabbit.

As for your game animals, if there is an asteroid impact or major volcanic eruption, you are assuming the game animals would still be available. That, to put it kindly, is a very optimistic assumption. In fact, if there is an asteroid impact in the ocean, assuming there is still a functioning port or harbour on a coastline is an optimistic assumption. Better hope the impact isn't in your ocean. Better still, keep a high technology (more like develop one) to prevent the impact in the first place.

Catbuilder is right WRT mercury. I was part of a team collecting fisheries data in the northern waters of Australia 30+ years ago. There was no industry there and never had been. The mercury content of sharks and other fish like northern bluefin tuna was sufficiently high that a steady diet of it would not be a good idea. Oceanic top predators accumulate heavy metals.

PDW

Frosty
04-30-2012, 10:13 PM
I kind of liked that other survival movie with Tom Hanks and his only companion, Wilson, who was, in fact, a volleyball.

A little more than a companion, the basics of religion.

This conversation can not stimulate me , it is nonsense.

You would need an island like Tom Hanks had, only in the movie no one wanted to find or share his Island where in real life you would be fighting -literally for your life every day. You would not survive

WestVanHan
04-30-2012, 11:44 PM
You guys have no experience doing this. You're just imagining it from your comfy chair. I've done it. PDW has done it. Bataan has done it. We all say it's not possible. Try to live off the sea/land from a boat for a couple years and see if you can make it without buying anything.

Then, post your story here and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong. :D

Thing is, boats require maintenance and they are not made from materials readily available at sea or up a creek/river. You have to buy the materials.


Again, just try it. You have to try it to see if it can be done. All of us that have tried it will tell you it can't be done.


Like I said before,

"There are places where unlimited food and water are free,and you benefit from both land and sea."

But you know that already,yet persist:


Try to live off the sea/land from a boat for a couple years and see if you can make it.




I really don't see how you get off thinking you know my waters,area,and food potentials better than I do-having spent months of almost every year of my whole life "up the coast".

Now it's changed to "without buying anything"? Where does it say one cannot be prepared beforehand...with spares and freeze dried essentials?

From my semi remote cabin,I can catch several species of salmon, herring, sardines,prawns,dungeness crabs,flounder,rockfish,halibut,etc. from within a short distance.

I could catch a ton of fish in a short period of time and fill up the smokehouse if I had to. Shoot a moose and there's 500 pounds.
I caught 140 pounds of halibut in 3 days recently-and could have caught multitudes that but for the 2 fish limit.And 8 dungeness crabs.
Catching chinook on a regular basis as well.

With my 53' boat,I can get to even more remote areas within a short time,where no one goes. Just throw in some of the freeze dried buckets of essentials,the tanks are full,take my gear and yes-I could live out longer than 2 years if I had to.
I've spent up to 3 months away..using little of my stores.

To paraphrase yourself-

You have no experience doing this on the BC coast. You're just imagining it from your comfy chair. I've done it. Others have done it. I say it's possible.

Jetboy
04-30-2012, 11:55 PM
I'm firmly in the camp of forming community to protect yourselves. I grew up in rural Montana. We would have no problems whatsoever living on our ranch. We could grow plenty of food and raise cattle, breed horses, and have fresh water. The problem is protecting it. During winter it would be easy. Without plowed roads, no one would come or go without our knowing. During the summer it would be more difficult. The keys would be assembling enough people to run a ranch and to protect it against raiders. Having enough weapons to do so - pretty well covered there - I mean it's Montana. Who doesn't have at least half a dozen guns? And I think animal stock would be critical. We only have 4 horses and don't use them much. Not sure if that's enough. I also think dogs would play a critical role in detection of intruders and protection of stock. We don't have unfixed dogs or enough or the right breeds like irish wolfhounds to protect from the wolves.

The only way I can see boat life being viable is in places with almost no human population like possibly remote raja ampat. The problems there are things like Malaria. Going north might work. There are a lot of resources along the West coast of north America and very few people. Especially up around Alaska. The problem is how to live through the winter. Anyway I think boat living would be very hard, unless your boat is an aircraft carrier. The further North you go, the better chances of survival you have IMO.

The 70-80% of the population who've never experienced living in a very rural area would have very high casualty rates. Everyone thinks they can just go out of the city and find some land to occupy - everyone else thinks that too. Just like boats. Every little island will have 1,000 boats trying to make it "home".

Boston
05-01-2012, 12:02 AM
Both Westy and Cat have good points in there own rights. Someone mentioned rabbit being good meet, no way, its so full of bugs most of the year you'd never want to touch it. The rest of the time its so lean you could starve eating nothing but rabbit.

My personal take is that the coming trials are not survivable no mater where you are. The atmospheric chemistry will change and there will be less oxygen, a lot less, The oceans will be uninhabitable because of noxious gas releases and toxic algae. Land near the water will be just as bad. The life band of the planet will reduce down to a fragment of what it is at present and the edge effect will kill off large portions of the fuana, flora will die off due to shrinking micro-climate and the alterations in the atmospheric chemistry. Land, water, mount Fuji, it won't make a bit of difference.

Yup there will be a few years of panic, but in the end, very little is likely to survive what we have done to the planet.

Jet
your accounting for the social upheaval, but not the cause of the social upheaval. Resource depletion and climate change both look like they will hit about the same time. There has been an exponential increase in climate shift. It took about 150 years to gain 0.75~1°C between 1800 and 1950 and only another 60 to gain another 0.75~1°C since then. Extrapolate that out and you end up with another degree by about 2030 sometime, and again by about 2037 and by 2040 we're likely going to be about 5°C above pre-industrial levels. Yet the oceans have typically gone aerobically stratified with temps changes of 4°C over 1 million year periods ( <--- High Permian extinction event ). So imagine just how severe the die off will be this time. as well as the resultant changes in atmospheric chemistry. Your ranch might survive the first stages, maybe a few years, ten, maybe fifteen at best. But in the High Permian extinction event, everything down to 2lb died. And we've accelerated the process by about 2000 times.

There is no escape but to immediately bend the industrial might of the world to combat the issue. Which isn't going to happen, so its eat drink and be merry time. Let some clown named Noah build his boat, its not going to make a sh!t bit of difference. The IPCC has predicted conservatively, but we're exceeding climate change predictions by leaps and bounds. The oceans can only hold up so long and after that, oxygen stops getting to the abyssal plains and then things die from the bottom up. Its a very well known scenario. All that blue and black shale, all that oil shale and tar sands, is the result of anaerobic stratification

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 01:05 AM
I'm with Boston on how bad it could get, and we're all screwed.
But in the case of say, if a very intense series of solar flares fries the control systems dependent on imbedded chips in our computers, phones, cars and warehouses and commerce and traffic grind to a halt, food stops arriving at groceries, water stops coming from many taps and people get hungry and have no information as to what is happening so rumor takes over.
Then the scared civilians of all social and income classes start looking to see who is going to starve and who isn't.
Then some decide they're not victims, but survivors, and somehow manage to do so, while others perish.
In this scenario, fleeing by boat to a place the unban hungry have trouble reaching seems sensible.
I know that BERTIE is always ready for sea, two weeks food aboard, fuel and water tanks full, just in case.
As far as surviving by boat, anyplace with a coastal kelp forest is a supermarket, which for me, is anywhere local.
The NW coast of north America is an easy place to live off the sea and land.
The natives said "When the tide is out, the table is set."
Their large canoes were ideal for the survival situation and they grew rich and fat, by banding together in tribes and supporting each other.
Also their traditions involved raiding for slaves and loot.
-
My late father, who survived the Bataan Death March and 3 1/2 years in various Japanese prison camps starting with Cabanatuan and O'Donnell (look them up), told me that the death rate was 38% established by research after the war.
To him, it meant 4 out of 10 men he was captured with, he had to bury.
-
The first to die were the religious ones, because they did nothing waiting to be saved by Sky Daddy but found that prayer won't cure being beaten to death by some bored Japanese Marine with a Bushido complex.
Then the know-it-alls who always had a smart answer found they didn't have an answer to Beri-Beri and Amoebic and Bacillary Dysentery all at the same time combined with a 500 calorie a day diet so they died next.
Then the lack of protein caused massive edema, all the body fluids drained from the damaged cells and went downhill and men's feet, legs and genitals grew to massive size and the weak ones grew apathetic and died, drowning in their own fluids because they wouldn't stay on their painful feet.
And on down the line they died and died and died.
Of all the nationalities in the camps, British, Australian, Dutch mostly, the Americans were the most ruthless with their lack of cooperation and naked competition with each other, leading to the death of literally thousands.
The Brits shared food, Americans hoarded and sold it, even establishing a 'futures' market in the rice needed to survive day to day, where you could gamble away your future meals and literally starve to death among your 'friends'.
At one point my dad was weighed on the rice scales and he weighed 40 kilos, but he didn't die, because he was a tough son of a bitch and always figured out how to solve the actual problem in front of him, not what might happen tomorrow.
He traded a dead man's boots for a can of fish from a Filipino through the wire at night and got enough protein to cure the edema.
He ate carbon off the rice kettles and cured the dysentery.
He learned to speak Japanese and be a coal miner and blasted huge coal faces far underground for years.
At camp Fukuoka 17 he was in the coal mine under Nagasaki Bay when the A-Bomb went off.
He was a survivor and lived to 86.
I got a lot of my attitude from him and I don't apologize for it.
It ain't what you got, it's 'what you bring to the game'.
End rant.

viking north
05-01-2012, 01:36 AM
So be it, Old Viking the well experienced, fisherman/hunter/gardener/ with a years supply of food socked away ahead of time can't survived up there in his Newfoundland wilderness stomping grounds. A way of life and a place where his ancestors acomplished such for the past 400yrs. You guys keep that mindset and if this flight of fantasy ever occurs there'll be less coming for my food. :)
With that I'll sign off the thread, with the opinion that survival on a boat at sea would not work however a small boat from land would be an assett. Common sense dictates survival of course is based upon the level of experience, attitude and the challenge we have to face. I.E. force 10 in a 16ft canoe mid atlantic is just not reasonable but f--k ya gotta try.

viking north
05-01-2012, 01:44 AM
Well put Battan and my highest respects to your dad --and the other servicemen allied involved===

whitepointer23
05-01-2012, 04:09 AM
:I think Jack Bauer and Angus MacGyver would survive in a revolution -- even on a boat. They could pull it off.

My advice? Become more like Bauer and MacGyver. You will survive on your wits!

While I'm thinking about it .. the Road Runner would probably survive as well -- but Wile E. Coyote may be a better role model.

As you can tell, I'm deep in thought on this subject ...

now that makes sense. what sort of boat would coyote have for the end. i am thinking something very fast , possibly with acme rocket propulsion and a giant desk fan for the sails. also some sort of baking apparatus for when he does catch the roadrunner. :D:D

river runner
05-01-2012, 06:43 AM
I'm of the school of thought that this would probably be a fairly short term situation. Less than a year before some sort of order is restored. Maybe as short as a few weeks. I agree that forming a comunity would be a good way to handle the situation, but I'm not sure how this would work if one of these scenarios really happened. If you went to your neighbors to talk about it before things got bad, they might ask the FBI to have a talk with you. If you wait till things are already bad, it might be too late.
Most preppers spend a lot of time and money on lethal forms of defense. I'm not sure they are considering the consequences when order is restored. The relatives of the people you shoot are going to want justice. Maybe you felt like it was you or them, but you may end up having to convince a jury. Yes, you will want guns, but avoidance should be your first line of defense. There is safety in numbers, but I'm still not sure how well that would come together when the doo doo hits the fan.
Another thing to consider is this might be a localized event, and by localized I mean just this country or North America. Airports and train stations won't be running, traveling by car won't be an option. You might want to get to France (Ugg!). If you had enough forsight to get to your cruising sailboat, this might be all you need.

FAST FRED
05-01-2012, 08:28 AM
"But in the case of say, if a very intense series of solar flares fries the control systems dependent on imbedded chips in our computers, phones, cars and warehouses and commerce and traffic grind to a halt, food stops arriving at groceries, water stops coming from many taps and people get hungry and have no information as to what is happening so rumor takes over."

A more likely scenario is N Korea or Iran pop a nuke in orbit.

Poof 1850 again.

Have your sextant ,wind up chronometer and almanack and lead line aboard .

Or going somewhere will be a problem. Electric charts? Ho Ho Ho.

FF

DStaal
05-01-2012, 09:31 AM
I think it might be worth defining what type of disaster we are preparing for; different disasters would give different plans.

The current rage seems to be zombie/plague planning. I'd expect in that case mass deaths, but infrastructure/government would stay largely intact. There'd be shortages, rationing, and a reduction of choice, but GPS, radio, navigation aids, would all keep working, and you'd be able to buy most fuels. (If the mass deaths go over something around 60% of the population, this may be only short term however.) In this case, I'd want a modern boat, and I'd want to go just stay at sea for as long as possible: Eventually the situation on land would stabilize, as the plague ran it's course. My main concern is not getting infected; once the population stabilizes (and treatment/containment protocols have been developed), I'm heading back in to help.

There's also the massive nuclear war scenario: Massive deaths, massive damage to infrastructure/government, but not likely to be total in either case. Expect GPS and radio to still work; though you may not be able to get supplies or parts. I'd want a older-style sailing ship, and I'd head south; Antarctica for preference. (Though there are several choices to countries that are not likely to be involved in the war.) Let the circumpolar currents keep the fallout away from you. When winter comes, head back north a bit, and start trading, and finding where civilization still exists.

Then there's the EMP/solar flare scenario: No direct deaths, but infrastructure is gone. The government/military will still be in place though, and will probably act fairly quickly. (If somewhat disconnected.) The only working electronics will be stuff that's either extremely simple, or stuff that's been hardened. (Mostly military.) Expect famine, starvation, and disease to follow. I'd want a classic sailing ship, and don't rely on electric anything. Probably the best choice then is to head to the main shipping lanes, and see if you can stumble across any major cargo ships. Offer to get the crew to land, for as much of the cargo as you can carry. (Note: They may actually still have engine power, although they wouldn't have navigation or steering...) Mark the ship's location, and repeat process; basically take over the 'job' of shipping, which will be desperately needed. Your actual main concern is avoiding being commandeered by a government someplace.

portacruise
05-01-2012, 09:39 AM
Where is your location as regards the Exxon spill, and also more recently, the Japanese debris washing up on shore? Saw a Harley motorcycle washed up on shore somewhere on Canadian coast, could come in handy for parts that haven't corroded. Might not be too good for the food supply though, have to head for fresh water out lets or land for sustinance...

P.

Like I said before,

"There are places where unlimited food and water are free,and you benefit from both land and sea."

But you know that already,yet persist:



I really don't see how you get off thinking you know my waters,area,and food potentials better than I do-having spent months of almost every year of my whole life "up the coast".

Now it's changed to "without buying anything"? Where does it say one cannot be prepared beforehand...with spares and freeze dried essentials?

From my semi remote cabin,I can catch several species of salmon, herring, sardines,prawns,dungeness crabs,flounder,rockfish,halibut,etc. from within a short distance.

I could catch a ton of fish in a short period of time and fill up the smokehouse if I had to. Shoot a moose and there's 500 pounds.
I caught 140 pounds of halibut in 3 days recently-and could have caught multitudes that but for the 2 fish limit.And 8 dungeness crabs.
Catching chinook on a regular basis as well.

With my 53' boat,I can get to even more remote areas within a short time,where no one goes. Just throw in some of the freeze dried buckets of essentials,the tanks are full,take my gear and yes-I could live out longer than 2 years if I had to.
I've spent up to 3 months away..using little of my stores.

To paraphrase yourself-

You have no experience doing this on the BC coast. You're just imagining it from your comfy chair. I've done it. Others have done it. I say it's possible.

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 10:07 AM
"But in the case of say, if a very intense series of solar flares fries the control systems dependent on imbedded chips in our computers, phones, cars and warehouses and commerce and traffic grind to a halt, food stops arriving at groceries, water stops coming from many taps and people get hungry and have no information as to what is happening so rumor takes over."

A more likely scenario is N Korea or Iran pop a nuke in orbit.

Poof 1850 again.

Have your sextant ,wind up chronometer and almanack and lead line aboard .

Or going somewhere will be a problem. Electric charts? Ho Ho Ho.

FF

The Israelis now say the Iranians are too sensible to be stupid with nuclear weapons.
The NK seem to not be able to build a working large missile and their last Nuke test was a 'fizzle', where it didn't work completely.
So those scenarios, while within reason, are not likely any time soon.
The Iranians are not dumb, just saddled with a religious leadership that tends to see everything as black and white, and know quite well the capabilities of US and Israel to smack them.
The NKs are stuck with the Kim line at the moment, but their situation cannot go on forever. Someone will become sane there someday, surely, and bring it all down.
Sextant, H.O. 208 (no almanac needed) and log are aboard.
I could use new charts since some of mine are WW2 vintage so might be a bit out of date.

GTO
05-01-2012, 10:54 AM
I've given Bataan negative rep for insulting the service men who died in that horrific war.

I suggest others do too.

CatBuilder
05-01-2012, 11:07 AM
As usual when disagreement comes up (think reverse bows thread) we are talking about two different things. You are talking about living aboard for 2 years. Easily done. I go entire seasons like that, though you still have to buy things for a boat to keep it afloat.

Zinc anodes??

I'm talking survival, as in what a "survivalist" does. Start naked, with no food, no water, no clothing and no shelter. Survive indefinitely based on your survival skills alone. No outside help. That is survival.

Your scenario is more like going camping. I would agree that anyone can live on a boat a couple years if they prepare for it. What can't be done is long term, self sufficient survival. That can only be done on land. So, I agree. 2 years on a boat? No big deal.

Heck, you could even enjoy martinis each evening and watch some videos. Your food is already aboard. You can kick back and grill a fish you catch with the rod you bought before you left.

All completely possible and easy, I agree. This, however, is not survival.


Two completely different situations.


Like I said before,a

"There are places where unlimited food and water are free,and you benefit from both land and sea."

But you know that already,yet persist:



I really don't see how you get off thinking you know my waters,area,and food potentials better than I do-having spent months of almost every year of my whole life "up the coast".

Now it's changed to "without buying anything"? Where does it say one cannot be prepared beforehand...with spares and freeze dried essentials?

From my semi remote cabin,I can catch several species of salmon, herring, sardines,prawns,dungeness crabs,flounder,rockfish,halibut,etc. from within a short distance.

I could catch a ton of fish in a short period of time and fill up the smokehouse if I had to. Shoot a moose and there's 500 pounds.
I caught 140 pounds of halibut in 3 days recently-and could have caught multitudes that but for the 2 fish limit.And 8 dungeness crabs.
Catching chinook on a regular basis as well.

With my 53' boat,I can get to even more remote areas within a short time,where no one goes. Just throw in some of the freeze dried buckets of essentials,the tanks are full,take my gear and yes-I could live out longer than 2 years if I had to.
I've spent up to 3 months away..using little of my stores.

To paraphrase yourself-

You have no experience doing this on the BC coast. You're just imagining it from your comfy chair. I've done it. Others have done it. I say it's possible.

SheetWise
05-01-2012, 11:36 AM
I've given Bataan negative rep for insulting the service men who died in that horrific war.

I suggest others do too.

I've given Bataan positive rep for constructively adding to the content in this thread (and to offset).

What did he write that bothered you?

Milehog
05-01-2012, 11:58 AM
I've given Bataan negative rep for insulting the service men who died in that horrific war.

I suggest others do too.

For what? Speaking truthfully about human nature, cultural differences and behavior?

I'll take the truth over P C any day.

ImaginaryNumber
05-01-2012, 12:06 PM
I've given Bataan negative rep for insulting the service men who died in that horrific war.

I suggest others do too.

I agree. Bataan must be colossally greedy to have collected all those rep points. Furthermore, he has insulted other groups as well:

Native Americans, because "they grew rich and fat...raiding for slaves and loot"

The religious, "because they did nothing waiting to be saved by Sky Daddy"

The Japanese, because they have a "Bushido complex"

And finally the know-it-alls, because they "always had a smart answer"

Humm..., I wonder if my post qualifies as a "smart answer"? :rolleyes:

GTO
05-01-2012, 12:11 PM
-
The first to die were the religious ones, because they did nothing waiting to be saved by Sky Daddy but found that prayer won't cure being beaten to death by some bored Japanese Marine with a Bushido complex.
Then the know-it-alls who always had a smart answer found they didn't have an answer to Beri-Beri and Amoebic and Bacillary Dysentery all at the same time combined with a 500 calorie a day diet so they died next.



It's my opinion that this is equivalent to blaming a rape victim for not fighting enough, so the rape is their fault. People were thrown into a horrific situation for which nothing can prepare someone. Survival was as much a random occurance as anything. At any moment a guard could simply kill someone. To denigrate anyone that died in the apt named "death camps" is simply pathetic - in my opinion. Obviously, others seem to have a different perspective on such situations.

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 12:22 PM
I've given Bataan positive rep for constructively adding to the content in this thread (and to offset).

What did he write that bothered you?
I guess some people would rather stick with Errol Flynn movies and romantic fantasies of the past wars where we were all heroes and the Japa-Nazis were all evil.
I'm not sure what part of the truth bothers some people but I'm not making stuff up or disparaging American POWs.
After all, I spent a lot of my life with one and heard the stuff first hand.
You don't like the truth, bury your head in a compost pile and your ears won't hear it and your eyes will see nothing but fertilizer.
Just because they were American, doesn't make them all saints.
After, scum rises to the top in all human situations, right?
At F17, an American USN Lieutenant Little was canteen officer.
He was a petty tyrant who starved soldiers as punishment.
One of several who died from his attentions was so thin and tall they folded him in half to fit a Japanese coffin.
My dad hated this Lt. with a passion I cannot express, as he was a loving man but mention Lt. Little and he got murderous and a red rage came up from somewhere inside and his voice shook and he trembled as he spoke of the man.
After the war Little was court-martialed and went to prison.
On the other hand, the wife of a Japanese guard somehow found ORANGES in a devastated Japan and smuggled them in for allied prisoners once.
The protein situation among prisoners got so bad and so many were starving that the guards rounded up 200 stray dogs and drove them into camp.
By the next day the canines were history and 1500 guys felt a lot better with some meat in their bellies.
If you don't believe the 'rice trading' stories or American on American predation, check them out here:
http://mansell.com/pow_resources/camplists/fukuoka/Fuku_17/hewlett_report.html
http://home.comcast.net/~winjerd/POWCamp1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukuoka_17
http://www.lindavdahl.com/
http://mansell.com/pow_resources/camplists/fukuoka/Fuku_17/stecklein.htm
When it comes to the truth of survival, denying reality will make one a dead statistic quickly, and that's what this thread was about I thought.
I just relate this stuff to show that no matter how bad you think things are, be very glad, because they could be so very much worse.
That attitude kept my dad cheerful and employed the rest of his life, and seems to do the same for me.
I took the moniker BATAAN so I won't forget the lessons I learned through him from that intolerable situation he was in so long ago.

ImaginaryNumber
05-01-2012, 12:26 PM
For those interested you might read Langdon Gilkey's book Shantung Compound: The Story of Men and Women Under Pressure.

http://www.amazon.com/Shantung-Compound-Story-Women-Pressure/dp/0060631120

It is the story of how a group of Western expatriots survived in an internment camp in Japanese-controlled China during WWII. These were not death camps, but life was still difficult. The interesting part of the story is how different groups/genders/occupations reacted differently to their hardships. Men vs women; religious vs secular; who could be trusted in the kitchen, and who not, etc.

Boston
05-01-2012, 12:28 PM
I've given Bataan positive rep for constructively adding to the content in this thread (and to offset).

What did he write that bothered you?

yah I gave him some for having the guts to tell it like it is and for his courageous father who must have endured pure hell.

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 12:38 PM
It's my opinion that this is equivalent to blaming a rape victim for not fighting enough, so the rape is their fault. People were thrown into a horrific situation for which nothing can prepare someone. Survival was as much a random occurance as anything. At any moment a guard could simply kill someone. To denigrate anyone that died in the apt named "death camps" is simply pathetic - in my opinion. Obviously, others seem to have a different perspective on such situations.

You speak from ignorance.
Survivors will survive when there is no chance.
The apathetic die in midst of plenty.
After the Battle of Bataan and the Death March, most of the Japanese led atrocities were over.
The random beheadings and bayonettings stopped and the prisoners were put to work.
Japanese camps were not 'death camps', but POW camps, and the prisoners a source of free labor.
The high death rate occurred from malnutrition and disease, not a guard simply killing guys for nothing.
Guards beat people, usually with a heavy club, for breaking tools or causing accidents in the mine, but killing a prisoner would bring retribution on the guard because they were losing money for Mitsui Corporation which ran the coal mining camp for a profit.
-
There were professional POW 'leg breakers' who would break your leg for a fee, almost always your rice ration, so you could get out of work for 6 weeks or so.
This is the truth of the thing, to deny it is to deny reality in favor of fantasy, a too-common modern political and social practice when we just don't care for who and what we humans really are.
I denigrate no one, simply repeat what my father told me, intending I learn some difficult things he did the HARD way.
How many real survival lessons have you learned this way?
I put these experiences out so people can see what survival is, and it's mostly attitude and luck, but attitude helps make luck.
If you all ignore them, why should I care?

CatBuilder
05-01-2012, 12:46 PM
Great posts, Bataan. Very interesting first hand account of history. Thank you for passing the story to us.

The story reaffirms my personal survival strategy. Other people are the problem. I follow a personal survival philosophy for the exact reasons we see in your stories.

If not for other people (Japanese, etc), these men would have fared much better.

portacruise
05-01-2012, 02:08 PM
Great posts, Bataan. Very interesting first hand account of history. Thank you for passing the story to us.

The story reaffirms my personal survival strategy. Other people are the problem. I follow a personal survival philosophy for the exact reasons we see in your stories.

If not for other people (Japanese, etc), these men would have fared much better.

Yes, I also agree that self sufficiency is desirable as much as possible, so that I am not a burden on someone else or the resources. There are good people everywhere that are not a problem, some better and more deserving than moi, so I try to help. Even the Japanese which were of as identical a culture and values, were not a monolithic group as far as treatment of prisoners. Some were worse, some not, just as any group. What's interesting is the shift toward self importance and isolation in recent time, though some sacrifice still exists. Maybe its the internet? We have the heroic efforts on that flight during 911, but I wonder if "women and children" first would still be observed in a modern disaster....

P.

Submarine Tom
05-01-2012, 02:14 PM
Porta,

I'm just dropping in here, haven't read most of the thread.
An old friend of mine is a cop. I asked him one day if he gets discouraged that there isn't anything he can really do to change peoples behaviour. He said no, that it all comes down to ones morals and their judgement call in the moment. He believes the vast majority to be good people who make good choices most of the time.
I found that somewhat reasuring.
Cheers!

GTO
05-01-2012, 02:28 PM
You speak from ignorance.
Survivors will survive when there is no chance.
The apathetic die in midst of plenty.
After the Battle of Bataan and the Death March, most of the Japanese led atrocities were over.
The random beheadings and bayonettings stopped and the prisoners were put to work.
Japanese camps were not 'death camps', but POW camps, and the prisoners a source of free labor.
The high death rate occurred from malnutrition and disease, not a guard simply killing guys for nothing.
Guards beat people, usually with a heavy club, for breaking tools or causing accidents in the mine, but killing a prisoner would bring retribution on the guard because they were losing money for Mitsui Corporation which ran the coal mining camp for a profit.
-
There were professional POW 'leg breakers' who would break your leg for a fee, almost always your rice ration, so you could get out of work for 6 weeks or so.
This is the truth of the thing, to deny it is to deny reality in favor of fantasy, a too-common modern political and social practice when we just don't care for who and what we humans really are.
I denigrate no one, simply repeat what my father told me, intending I learn some difficult things he did the HARD way.
How many real survival lessons have you learned this way?
I put these experiences out so people can see what survival is, and it's mostly attitude and luck, but attitude helps make luck.
If you all ignore them, why should I care?

Your post above has NO relationship to what I posted. NONE!
My personal beliefs lead me to respect those that were tortured and killed, while acting on behalf of our country, by an enemy that was well documented to be completely willing to commit any atrocity that could be imagined. I have zero illusions that every man or woman that serves in the Armed forces are "perfect" people. That still does not diminish one bit what they suffered at the hands of the Japanese.

As far as you implying that religion is an anti-survivor attitude, I suggest you do a little reading up Senator John Mccain's time as a prisoner in Hanoi.

Anyway, seems I'm in the minority here. So I'll quit feeling that all those Indians that died on the reservations they were forced to live on were people to be pitied. That the millions that suffered in concentration camps, political prisons, or were brutalized and killed by occupying armies, none of that deserves the slightest respect or pity. They were just lame-ass weaklings that should have died, since they weren't "survivors".

Hmmm - nope, sorry, I can't be that type of person. Some things that happen in life to otherwise decent people just deserve a little respect.
That's how I feel. Neg rep me all you want. I'll not be changing my mind.

Jetboy
05-01-2012, 03:01 PM
You speak from ignorance.
Survivors will survive when there is no chance.
The apathetic die in midst of plenty.
After the Battle of Bataan and the Death March, most of the Japanese led atrocities were over.
The random beheadings and bayonettings stopped and the prisoners were put to work.
Japanese camps were not 'death camps', but POW camps, and the prisoners a source of free labor.
The high death rate occurred from malnutrition and disease, not a guard simply killing guys for nothing.
Guards beat people, usually with a heavy club, for breaking tools or causing accidents in the mine, but killing a prisoner would bring retribution on the guard because they were losing money for Mitsui Corporation which ran the coal mining camp for a profit.
-
There were professional POW 'leg breakers' who would break your leg for a fee, almost always your rice ration, so you could get out of work for 6 weeks or so.
This is the truth of the thing, to deny it is to deny reality in favor of fantasy, a too-common modern political and social practice when we just don't care for who and what we humans really are.
I denigrate no one, simply repeat what my father told me, intending I learn some difficult things he did the HARD way.
How many real survival lessons have you learned this way?
I put these experiences out so people can see what survival is, and it's mostly attitude and luck, but attitude helps make luck.
If you all ignore them, why should I care?


No I think he speaks exactly the truth. Survival was almost entirely random. From your fathers perspective he probably believes that his cunning and intelligence saved him. Reality is probably the exact opposite. He happened to be small of stature and able to survive on little and survived due to the chance of his genetics. Sure there is some difference in survivors and non-survivors mentality, but when people die of starvation and disease in a prison camp, it's almost purely a result of genetics and chance, not work ethic or intelligence. I'm sure you proud of your heritage. You should be. I think you make the common mistake of attributing effect to a cause that may not be linked.

SheetWise
05-01-2012, 04:02 PM
Survival was almost entirely random.

Certainly a combination of skill and fortune. What I hear from Battaan is that during periods of civil unrest, peoples will to survive will override their spontaneous adherence to social norms. I agree with both of you -- I don't think there is a real disagreement here.

I have no doubt that any crisis resulting in shortages and demanding sacrifice will bring out the worst and the best in people. In those times, I suspect a well supplied boat would provide some comfort.

I think you make the common mistake of attributing effect to a cause that may not be linked.

We all do.

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 04:31 PM
No I think he speaks exactly the truth. Survival was almost entirely random. Sure your father's ego means that his cunning and intelligence saved him. Reality is probably the exact opposite. He happened to be small of stature and able to survive on little and survived due to the chance of his genetics. Sure there is some difference in survivors and non-survivors mentality, but when people die of starvation and disease in a prison camp, it's almost purely a result of genetics and chance, not work ethic or intelligence. I'm sure you proud of your heritage. You should be. I think you make the common mistake of attributing effect to a cause that may not be linked.
I hold true scorn for those who turned the situation into an opportunity for personal profit over group survival, and they weren't all, but far too many.
Read the links and see who was who and what actually happened from the voices of those who were there.
In the last two years at Fukuoka some corrupt American traders got literally fat, as others withered and died.
They survived just fine, nothing random about it, just exploitation of the weak and business as usual.
This was viewed with disgust and horror by Aussies and Brits and Dutch alongside.
In 1944 for a few months Pop worked in an electric shop fixing magneto blasting detonators for the mines with a Dutch engineer at F17 and the guy said how they all thought half the Americans were ******* crazy because such a large number of them wouldn't share, but stole and schemed against each other constantly so much that many died unnecessarily.
Here's a simplified example of what they were discussing.
Omuta, Fukuoka 17, winter 1944-45, lots of snow on the ground and cold as hell.
You only got so much watery, stone-filled rice a day, maybe 1000 calories, that's it, no more and you worked ten hours a day in the coal mine for ten days straight, then got one day off.
Now "Fred" here, a genial guy from Wisconsin who works in the kitchen, controls the overall total rice ration given by Mitsui Corporation that owns the mine to feed the workers, so many pounds to so many guys every week, which has been carefully calculated by the Corporation (this is mid-20th century Japanese version of Fascism remember so Corporation and Government are wedded) to be just barely enough to keep the workers effective, usually at about 100 to 110 pounds body weight.
They need coal for the war effort and don't want guys dying because it cuts into the bottom line, so give just enough food to keep the POWs alive at their heavy work level.
Fred smiles so sweetly and says he knows you're really hungry today and he'll give you one and a half rations, but you don't get one tomorrow.
Fred gets a half ration as the price of the deal.
You're hungry, so you do it.
Fred eats his one and your half rations and does no real work other than deal making.
Next day, no rice for you so you lose body weight from the extreme labor while Fred gains a bit on his already fat gut.
So you trade four of your eight remaining cigarettes for someone else's ration that day.
That guy goes hungry instead but smokes two of the cigarettes and trades two for a half ration from someone else, so he gets much fewer calories but still has to work 10 hours in the mine or shops, and loses body mass as a result.
He can get half a dried rat leg for a cigarette, but decides to smoke it instead.
Meanwhile old benevolent Fred, Randian to the core, weighs 300 pounds and owns the camp, with his likewise very well-fed group of fellow morally-challenged companions known in the adjacent allied camps as the "American Mafia".
"Fred" bribes the guards to get the cigarettes, bits of meat and fish available, tofu, maybe some dog leg for a treat, and sits atop a business pyramid doing this deal with hundreds of guys, who trade the rice ration futures among themselves like currency on a stock market where the inevitable losers die, while others, "survivors", grow fatter and fatter.
-
Sounds like today's shining light on the hill economic system dream....
"If only the big guys were in charge, all our problems would magically go away because they would share with us, wouldn't they?"
The above examples are current world economics viewed small.
It's a tiny place and you can't leave (earth).
The fat greedy guys are in charge.
The rest are stealing what little is left from each other.
Now that's a movie that won't sell many tickets.
The bottom line is, when the sh*t goes down, some people stand up with their brothers and work together and some don't, only working for themselves.
Pop wasn't a rice trader, but stopped trying to be American and wound up being quite Japanese, just another naked coal miner trying not to get crushed in the dark and being respected and trusted by his Japanese and American mining brothers together down that deep dark hole, and that's what survival was for him.
He spoke Japanese pretty well, taught me chopsticks alongside the fork, had lots of Nisei friends who we were close to, and taught me never to hate unless someone really really deserves it, which is darn few.
Rice traders qualify I guess.
-
Back to some survival history.
In 1942 at Cabantuan, the rampant protein-deficiency edema was known to be curable by standing up on your swollen split feet and getting any protein at all, this included slugs, flies and maggots, which the survivors ate, and those who did not, often from disgust or cultural bias, died.
That's not random, it's willingness.
Nothing that could be eaten in that particular camp went to waste.
There was not a fly, ant, salamander or pill bug to be found anywhere as all had been eaten by the thousands of starving men.
A small rat fed literally 20 men, but some would not eat rat and died.
That one instance is not random, there are many others.
Want one? When he weighed 40 kilos he was in the Zero ward, a palm roof over cots on the ground, with all the other 100 guys who were dying that day, and he saw how weak the medics were and how hard it was for them to drag the emaciated bodies to the big hole where they threw them, so he dragged himself there all afternoon until the sun was going down so they wouldn't have to when he died.
And he looked in that hole and saw the maggots and dogs and said I ain't goin' in there, and he crawled back, and got better.
-
http://www.lindavdahl.com/Front%20Pages/O%27Donnell%20&%20Cabanatuan.htm
"Each day an attempt was made to clear each barracks of the dying. They were removed to “zero” ward, laid on the bare floor entirely naked. These patients usually were profoundly emaciated, in fact, little better than skeletons with a feeble spark of life. Heroic corpsmen and doctors did what they could to alleviate the indescribable conditions. They tied grass onto sticks and attempted to cleanse the floors. They used the same method of cleansing the body. Occasionally a big puddle of rainwater would provide enough water to wash the floor. At this time the use of the regular water supply system was strictly forbidden by the Japanese. The few laymen who saw these conditions were utterly horrified. Even the Japanese doctors would not enter these wards and the Japanese staff at Headquarters gave it a wide berth. ".
-
It's not ego, it's just not giving up on yourself.
Here's another quote from the history of Cabanatuan.
-
"The camp commandant was Lt. Col. Masao Mori, who operated a bicycle shop in Manila when the war began. He was nicknamed “Blood” and “Bamboo Mori” by the prisoners. Mori, who was in charge of both Camp No.1 and No. 3, chose to live at No. 3 until he moved to No. 1 in September 1942. He and another guard, Kasayama Yoshikichi, who the prisoners called “Slime,” were the terror of the camp. Blood and Slime were punished after the war as war criminals. Blood was hanged and Slime got a life sentence. In late October 1942 Mori was replaced (after Camp No. 3 was closed and all prisoners were transferred to No. 1) by Major Iwanaka. Iwanaka was quite old for a major and paid no attention to the goings-on in the camp. In June 1944 Iwanaka was relieved by Major Takasaki, who ruled the camp with an iron fist.

First Lieutenant Oiagi was the camp quartermaster. He was tall and had played on the Japanese Davis Cup team in America. Unlike most of the prison guards, Oiagi was relatively fair and pleasant to the POWs. The prisoners had many “affectionate” nicknames for their guards: Big Stoop, Little Speedo, Air Raid, Laughing Boy, Donald Duck, Many Many, Beetle Brain, Fish Eyes, Web Foot, Hammer Head, and Hog Jaw were just a few names known to most prisoners at Cabanatuan. Urban McVey, in Martin’s Brothers From Bataan, said “Two of the main guards were ‘Big Speedo’ and ‘Little Speedo.’ They were called that because if you were too slow in your work they would yell & holler "Speedo". ‘Big Speedo’ did not beat up the prisoners. ‘Little Speedo’ did, and he was much bossier and demanding than ‘Big Speedo.’”

The American prisoners had been severely warned upon entering any prison camp that an attempt to escape would result in death by firing squad. Despite the warnings, a handful of escape attempts from Cabanatuan occurred in the early days of incarceration. If the escapees were captured they were usually tortured and shot to death while other POWs were forced to look on. To prevent any more escape attempts, the Japanese captors initiated what were called “Shooting Squads” or “Blood Brothers.” Each POW was assigned to a group of ten. If anyone in that group escaped, the other nine would be shot. When it came to the deed, the Japanese often had mixed feelings about whether to actually shoot the helpless hostages or not. Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn’t, but one could never feel any confidence about the matter. In one account the author of As I Remember writes, “You can believe that each man knew where his blood brothers were most of the time and especially at night.” Because of the danger to those in the camp, the American leadership took extra precautions by imposing additional rules to prevent escape attempts and to prevent the perception (which had occurred more often than not) of a POW trying to escape. For instance, the Japanese rule was to stay within ten feet of the fence. The American leaders made it 30. In addition, a walking, unarmed patrol of POWs was formed to watch for anything suspicious. The patrol wore white armbands with MP printed on them.

During the first eight months of camp in Cabanatuan, deaths totaled approximately 2,400. Some 30 to 50 skeletons, covered by leathery skin, were buried in common graves each day. The Japanese issued documents certifying that each death was caused by malaria, beriberi, pellagra, diphtheria, in fact, anything but the real cause – starvation and malnutrition. Death hit the youngest men the hardest. Of the men who died during July 1942 at Camp No. 1, 85 percent were under 30. Ten percent of the enlisted men died, compared with only 4 percent of the officers. Due to conditions at Cabanatuan, most of the prisoners welcomed the transport to Japan, hoping for better conditions. Little could they imagine what lay ahead."
-
All the above is just to try to show that few of us, including me, understand "survival" and often the thoughts on the matter are based on conjecture and not experience.

Jetboy
05-01-2012, 04:58 PM
"When he weighed 40 kilos he was in the Zero ward, a palm roof over cots on the ground, with all the other 100 guys who were dying that day, and he saw how weak the medics were and how hard it was for them to drag the emaciated bodies to the big hole where they threw them, so he dragged himself there all afternoon until the sun was going down so they wouldn't have to when he died.
And he looked in that hole and saw the maggots and dogs and said I ain't goin' in there, and he crawled back, and got better.'

This is exactly the kind of story that makes me doubt the stories. It sounds unbelievable - I don't believe it. If you take a step back and look at it, it's clearly an embellishment at best. I know this is probably a touchy subject. I'm not looking for a e-tard fight. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

I'm glad you feel that you somehow understand "survival" better than everyone else. Hate to burst your bubble, but everyone else also thinks they understand it better than you. Its human nature.

CatBuilder
05-01-2012, 05:05 PM
E-tard! Ha ha ha! That is hilarious! :)

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 05:10 PM
On the VA form where they give you lots of room to write your experiences as a POW, he wrote one sentence, 'None that would be believed'.
It sounds unbelievable because you have nothing in your life experience that is comparable, therefore it 'did not happen' for you and you can call if fiction because it's so extreme as to be unbelievable.
Why would he lie?
Here's a photo of one of the grave pits at O'Donnell.
They were close to the huts and inside the wire.
His VA records say he was at O'Donnell, Cabanatuan and F17.
He was a very carefully truthful guy at all times as far as I could tell.
I don't 'understand' survival.
I've spent my life trying to, unsuccessfully so far, by seeing what others have experienced, starting with him from my earliest memories.

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 05:16 PM
"The Cabanatuan “hospital” was first opened in June 1942 under the command of Col. James Gillespie. At the hospital there were 30 wards (made to hold 40 soldiers each), often holding up to 100 patients. In each ward were upper and lower decks made of bamboo slats. Each patient was allotted a two-by–six-foot space. The seriously ill were kept on the lower deck. Fenced off from the hospital was a quarantined area containing about ten wards, called the dysentery section. Within the dysentery section was a building missed when the wards were numbered. Later, it was called the “zero” ward, due to the fact that a prisoner had “zero” chance of leaving it alive, serving as a place to put seriously ill or dying patients."
-History of O'Donnell and Cabanatuan

Jetboy
05-01-2012, 05:28 PM
To sum up, you genuinely believe that a person suffering from dysentery can simply decide that they don't want to die, and then get better?

Is that your plan for surviving if a social meltdown occurs?

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 05:40 PM
I don't know if you can or not and it's a wonderful question, he lived, with life long health problems that included a very damaged gut flora giving him a lingering prison camp smell that can't be described, but he lived.
And no, that is not my plan.
This is about survival boats and I apologize for diverting it onto the philosophy of survival itself.
In my area a major hazard is the Cascadia Subduction Zone, which causes large earthquakes in the Pacific NW every 300 years or so, and the last one was in 1700.
A big shake here would cause an impressive Tsunami, probably washing the entire marina where my lovely 23 ton survival boat is berthed several miles inland, so I'm counting on my tiny old 1887 house high on the bluff above the water, our large garden and the disaster supplies I have for, well, disasters.
If Fukushima #4's spent fuel pool collapses, as it seems about to, we're all screwed, so I'm not very optimistic.
The most successful 'survival' boat users will probably be guys in Kayaks with fish hooks and harpoons, working close in by the shore.

souljour2000
05-01-2012, 06:18 PM
submarine, otherwise pirates would eventually just take it from you. Even at that you'd need an early warning system, proximity alarm, so you could dive away from trouble if you needed to. My thinking is that no amount of arms will help if your just a family on a boat. You gotta be able to get away somehow, like submerge. Preferably with some way to torpedo the bastads and then come back up at your leisure

Did someone say submarine?...Dont wait...get YOURS ordered today!

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/2937996811.html

Submarine Tom
05-01-2012, 06:22 PM
Okay, this is not quite correct.

The Cascadia Subduction Zone is known to release, statistically, every 300 - 500 years, sometimes longer.

So, we have only just entered the probability envelope. It could happen in two seconds, two minutes, two hours, two days, two weeks, two months, two years, two decades, two centuries, or longer...

Secondly, the mechanism sends the tsunami west. Sure, there will be some effect east but the main thrust (literally) is away from us here on the west coast. It will depend almost entirely on tide state and atmopheric pressure when the fracture occurs. The odds are hugely in our favour.

But, if you can get in a boat and get to deep water within 20 minutes of the release, you'll be fine.

pdwiley
05-01-2012, 07:33 PM
To sum up, you genuinely believe that a person suffering from dysentery can simply decide that they don't want to die, and then get better?

That bit is entirely possible. Some people have immense inner reserves of will power & toughness, others don't. Call it a combination of genetics and personality. There are lots of documented cases of people with incurable cancers living far past their expected time. Not quite the same, but still.

As for the Japanese camps, I believe every word of it, both the good & the bad in human nature. There are a number of books in my library documenting the Japanese atrocities (and occasional kindnesses) in POW camps, those books written by the survivors to document who died and how.

Anyway, back to boats, once again I agree with Catbuilder. 1 - 2 years survival with a bit of preparation is dead easy on a boat. 5 years? Maybe. 10 years, I don't think so unless it's both big (therefore lots of room for spares) and simple like Bataan's. The rest of you aren't going to have functional engines or sails if they're UV sensitive.

I'd still take my 3 acres of waterfront with machine shop, fruit trees, garden and wildlife, thanks. A tsunami might be a problem but not much else. If I wasn't spending so much money on a hole in the water, I'd have 5kW of PV panels as well but as nearly all power is hydro-electric it'd take a major problem to knock out the entire system.

PDW

upchurchmr
05-01-2012, 08:15 PM
River Runner,

Do you still think this thread should be under BOAT DESIGN?

I just read the last two pages and didn't see anything about boat design.

Sorry you were offended in the PM - really.

But I was right. This belongs somewhere else.

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 08:19 PM
That bit is entirely possible. Some people have immense inner reserves of will power & toughness, others don't. Call it a combination of genetics and personality. There are lots of documented cases of people with incurable cancers living far past their expected time. Not quite the same, but still.

As for the Japanese camps, I believe every word of it, both the good & the bad in human nature. There are a number of books in my library documenting the Japanese atrocities (and occasional kindnesses) in POW camps, those books written by the survivors to document who died and how.

Anyway, back to boats, once again I agree with Catbuilder. 1 - 2 years survival with a bit of preparation is dead easy on a boat. 5 years? Maybe. 10 years, I don't think so unless it's both big (therefore lots of room for spares) and simple like Bataan's. The rest of you aren't going to have functional engines or sails if they're UV sensitive.

I'd still take my 3 acres of waterfront with machine shop, fruit trees, garden and wildlife, thanks. A tsunami might be a problem but not much else. If I wasn't spending so much money on a hole in the water, I'd have 5kW of PV panels as well but as nearly all power is hydro-electric it'd take a major problem to knock out the entire system.

PDW
I guess a lot of this comes down to is what situation are we all individually in BEFORE any major disruption to our established lives.
This, which of course includes where we are (Downtown LA, remote Montana?), seems to bear hardest on what is our ideal survival boat.
If I couldn't take BERTIE, it would be some alongshore thing, light and shallow draft, you could drag up and hide in the bushes.
Say a 22 foot narrow flat bottom, open or half decked boat that would row easily, paddle well, sail well with a very small rig, and carry enough food and water to live well for two weeks or survive for a month or so.
This could, with lowered mast, be paddled at the edge of the kelp forests, fishing on the seaward edge, where the big cod feed.
Or dried out on a clam flat, allowing you to dig as many as you could on a tide.
As said before, it's easy to hide from those whom would take what is not theirs.
Kind of like, or maybe just like, a Haida Gwaii canoe, evolved over a good long time for surviving in the Pacific NW.

BATAAN
05-01-2012, 08:28 PM
If the shore was possibly heavily contaminated with radio-active fallout, I'd want BERTIE with her 10 ton cargo capacity and huge hold, stuffed with drums of grain and MREs and water...
But still, you can't stay at sea forever. That's the problem.
I guess the poster above who said be prepared to stay at sea until things settle down does make a lot of sense.
At least 30 days I suppose.

SheetWise
05-02-2012, 09:48 AM
I guess the poster above who said be prepared to stay at sea until things settle down does make a lot of sense.
At least 30 days I suppose.

Depends on the scope of the unrest, but I would measure in months or years, not days. If Katrina taught us anything, it's that the government has no plan, is incompetent, and will take months (if not years) to respond in any meaningful way -- and that was a localized disaster surrounded by fully functioning cities to use as staging grounds. In a widespread disaster I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I depended on the government at all.

Submarine Tom
05-02-2012, 11:03 AM
You've got that right SheetWise, in fact, I don't like to be in ANY situation where I have to rely on the government.

You'd think if anyone was going to get it right it would have been Japan, especially when it comes to a nuclear reactor. And it was some pretty basic design flaws too, not some off the wall, unforeseeable anomoly.

"Hold onto your hats boys..."

DStaal
05-02-2012, 11:15 AM
Depends on the scope of the unrest, but I would measure in months or years, not days. If Katrina taught us anything, it's that the government has no plan, is incompetent, and will take months (if not years) to respond in any meaningful way -- and that was a localized disaster surrounded by fully functioning cities to use as staging grounds. In a widespread disaster I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I depended on the government at all.
There is a difference between 'the government has completed an organized response' and 'things have settled down': The latter can occur entirely independently of the former. Continuing to use Katrina as an example, it had largely settled down within a week, and I would probably say it had fully settled well within a month.

That's not to say that their had been adequate response, or that the situation was resolved, or even that a meaningful start on recovery had occurred, but in the type of worldwide disaster we are considering in this thread I very much doubt such would ever occur. But if you pulled up in your boat and asked who was in charge, you would be given a coherent answer, and you could deal with that person (or their deputies) in good faith and expect that faith to be returned. (And would be able to gauge whether that was likely to be a good idea based on dealing with those in charge.) That's enough to be able to set up a stable trading relationship.

Boston
05-02-2012, 12:47 PM
the one thing thats virtually guaranteed in any serious global catastrophe, or even just a national one, is a completely incompetent response on the part of the idiots that tend to get elected. There in it for the money, anything important happens and they scramble to point fingers, rather than actually provide meaningful relief.

There are no functional evacuation plans, yup we saw it in Katrina and we've seen it over and over again throughout hurricane season, there are no functional relief plans, the Haiti quake might be a good example of that one. In the end your on your own, with maybe a community to help or be helped.

Either way, it won't last much past 2050 or 60, by then climate change will likely have caused the aerobic stratification of the oceans that throughout history has resulted in massive extinction events where size is the determining factor if an organism can breath the atmosphere or not. And we've got events where everything down to a pound of two died off. One in which everything down to microbes died off, and numerous where everything down to ten or twelve pounds died off. You'd have to have preserved the technology to distill something breathable from a noxious atmosphere, (for however many millions of years it will take for the system to stabilize again) have the power to run it after years of turmoil, and then produce enough power and air to keep the community happy lest inner turmoil bring the enclave down.

If warming is real and the people who study it are nearly unanimous in there belief it is, then surviving the initial stage will be the easy part. Some guns and walls as well as the ability to grow your own food and produce enough ammo should do the trick, but things go south fast as the situation progresses and changing weather patterns change what crops can be grown where.

my take on doomsday is it won't be a short term event. Certainly not marked by a single day of turmoil and then stable if primitive world. I'm seeing a gradual decay to an uninhabitable planet, or at least uninhabitable by anything the size of a human.

portacruise
05-02-2012, 01:17 PM
Yes, I can see where you are coming from on this, but I don't think anyone with common sense plans to survive from disasterous unprecedented events because of government help or even self preparation! There's only hope, one won't know until/should it happen, though it seems something as far as preparation in better than nothing, even if it is the wrong preparation thing. Given past history like the September 1900 Galveston Hurricane, the government response to Karina was considerably better with a much larger population at stake, IMHO. Some lives were saved short term with rescue teams/helicopters/shelters/implied threat of martial law, etc.

Did any militia/preppers/survivalists/ on location in Katrina help, even themselves, or others, and how? How are these survivalists helping the Katrina recovery now?

P.


Depends on the scope of the unrest, but I would measure in months or years, not days. If Katrina taught us anything, it's that the government has no plan, is incompetent, and will take months (if not years) to respond in any meaningful way -- and that was a localized disaster surrounded by fully functioning cities to use as staging grounds. In a widespread disaster I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I depended on the government at all.

Submarine Tom
05-02-2012, 01:51 PM
Porta,

I agree with you, accept having a plan in place even if it's a bad plan is better than no plan.

This misdirects the public and risks putting them in a state of complacency.

We need our own plan or even a community plan where those members take responsibility and empower themselves.

We are way off topic.

DStaal
05-02-2012, 01:54 PM
DStaal,

I envy your state of ignorant bliss.

I thought you might think that. In retrospect, I should have made it clearer that I don't expect the government to have anything to do with it settling out. I'm just expecting a power structure and/or set of social norms that can be dealt with to form, with, without, or against the government's help.

Then you have to deal with whether you want to deal with that power structure, but that's a separate question. On a boat, you'd have choices: Investigate the situation, and if you don't like it, sail away.

There are arguments to be made either way on trying to deal with that power structure early on, or to wait to make sure it has fully settled in. Dealing with it earlier, you can help shape some of the basic choices, and gain gratitude and stature. Dealing with it later means you can be more sure how it operates, that it will continue to hold power, and that it has fuller control over the local area. Risk vs. reward. My choice would likely depend on the size/style of my boat, the type of the disaster, what supplies I had, and the size/trustworthiness of my crew.

I'm probably also a bit biased: I've dealt with situations in which social order was very loose (refuge camps, shanty towns, etc, though always as an outsider), and would be comfortable doing so again. I'm not expecting a working portside authority; just that I'll be able to tell before I bring in the dingy if I'll be robbed on the spot or not, and that there will be the start of some form of a local economy.

Save myself, reconnect with society, help the best rebuild, avoid the worst. Simplistic plan, lots of details in implementation, most of which are situational. :cool:

SheetWise
05-02-2012, 02:07 PM
... That's enough to be able to set up a stable trading relationship.

That is a very high bar to clear -- much higher than I think you're acknowledging.

Submarine Tom
05-02-2012, 02:12 PM
New thread started at ARE YOU PREPARED FOR A NATURAL DISASTER?

DStaal
05-02-2012, 02:14 PM
That is a very high bar to clear -- much higher than I think you're acknowledging.

Ok, maybe not 'stable'...

Submarine Tom
05-02-2012, 02:21 PM
DStaal,

Thanks for clarifying.

Now, where is East Cost?

DStaal
05-02-2012, 02:26 PM
Hmm. Apparently I can't spell, even with a spell check. ;)

East Coast USA; I'm here to learn - I'm in the mountains of West Virgina. (Though I work for the Coast Guard...)

Submarine Tom
05-02-2012, 02:30 PM
I'm sure your government sees it as the "cost" guard too!!

I used to work for the Canadian CG myself.

Welcome to the forum.

MoeJoe
05-02-2012, 04:01 PM
I'd go with what I know how to handle and repair with small funds and simple tools, what I can hide when needed, what looks insignificant for any attention, what can take supplies and gear for a few weeks. Something I can carry over land by myself. Which can reach waters regular boats can't reach and people can't reach from land. A "water-world doomsday" seems unrealistic. Even if all ice melts, there will still be land and remote islands to live on. A tiny boat which have crossed oceans and the wildest waters. I'd use a sea-kayak.

messabout
05-02-2012, 07:18 PM
I reassert my previous statements: This a stimulating thread that has serious philosophic overtones. Yes we have wandered off topic but the result has been to learn a little about the psyche of our members. Maybe that'll give us some insight into the reasons for sticking together if worst ever comes to worse. I believe that we will.

I was 15 years old at the end of WWII. I was not old enough to be a military person but I was old enough to do beach patrols (Florida) at night and civil air patrol (CAP) daytime observer in search of foreign aircraft silhouettes.

Many of you do not know know of the civilian wartime hardships such as gas rationng, heating oil, rubber goods..no way in hell to buy a new set of tires, meat rationng, even shoe rationing. We endured strict rationing of those ordinary things with resolve.

Lucky Strike cigarettes, one of the popular brands, had a green package. They changed to plain white paper packaging because green pigment was an essential commodity for the war effort. There was unity of nation and purpose beyond the wildest imagination of todays youth or corporate ambition.

So if I tend to line up on Baatans side, forgive me, I have a long memory.

viking north
05-02-2012, 08:46 PM
Speaking of Battan-- In defence of the crusty old codger re the story of his dad and comrads survival. -- Ref. material --"Singlehanded Sailing" (The experiences and techniques of the lone voyager) Author Richard Henderson. Chaper 2 (motives, personalities,and psychological aspects) Page 50-51. Studys, observations ,and conclusions made by Doctors Bombard, Lindemann and others--(Note -Info condensed from the actual) Stats show that 90% of shipwreck survivors die within THREE days yet it takes longer than that to die of hunger and thirst. Most of the time castcastaways who do not survive simply give up fighting for life. It`s not easy to fight fear(of death) but a majour weapon is self confidence. This is best assured by careful preporation and attention to ones health. While this is a very informative book on sailing and sailing history, this particular chapter has gone one step further including spiritual and is very applicable to any field where one is or about to be exposed to dangerious situations. Very applicable to any survival stratigy and certainly to Battans posts.

DStaal
05-02-2012, 09:20 PM
Not that I disagree that your mindset can have a significant affect on how well you recover from disease and injuries, but in reference to it taking longer than three days to die of thirst...

Sure, the human body, under ideal circumstances, can live for a week without water. But on the other hand you can fatally dehydrate yourself in a couple of hours on a sunny day if you make no more than a few mistakes. (Not to mention that many places in the world hypothermia would kill you quicker than that if you were in the water unprotected, or even exposed to constant spray without protection.) On it's own, I wouldn't count that as evidence that they just gave up trying to survive. A situation like that you need mental fortitude, knowledge, skill, and luck.

BATAAN
05-02-2012, 09:35 PM
Three rules of river rafters, which I realize apply to our survival scenario:
1. Don't be stupid.
2. S**t happens.
3. Bring beer.
Kind of covers it all.

Boston
05-02-2012, 10:00 PM
knife, rope, riffle

add it to list

viking north
05-02-2012, 10:02 PM
DStall, While I signed off the thread some posts back. I thought it very important to #1 counteract the un experienced comments against the "truth is stranger than fiction" posts of Battan and #2 pass on rare but very important psychological survival reference material that while directed toward sailers in general is applicable to all in survival mode. The intent was not to create debate but to encourage those interested to read this chapter in the book. Survival boats loaded with food and weapons are at a big disadvantage if mindset and understanding such under stressfull situations is not taken into account. In reality it is the deciding factor in many cases between life and death. --- Good info give it a read----Cheers Geo

Boston
05-02-2012, 10:12 PM
Personally I think any situation that ends up qualifying to be considered "doomsday" will be a fluid situation. Parameters of survival will be constantly changing and unless one is able to adapt then survival at best is short term. Me, I'm an arrogant bastard, the arrogant bastad gene seems to always survive. I'd eat worms if worms were all that I had, rinse em off and down the hatch, deal with it.

I'm thinking that the most realistic event coming our way is resource depletion, fuel isn't really all that hard to come buy. I could recycle plastics into diesel, tires, whatever I could get that had the right chemistry. Its things like food and fresh water that end up the big commodities, I'll have my fuel still up by end of summer, been driving the truck about some as well. testing all the new systems. Runs on any number of waste oils.

Food water shelter, transportation is a bit farther down my list, but its there. A boat is just transportation. first concern is shelter. OK boat provides that, but food and water, not so much. Going back a ways in our conversation I'm thinking some secluded cove somewhere would be best, one in which I could actually keep the boat out of site of passersby both on land on water, would be even better. I'd keep fire down to a minimum and lie low. Depends on how many people I had with me. Or if I knew anyone nearby I might join up with. I'd also be dragging a rather large pile of tools around with me if at all possible. New sh!ts going to be hard to come by, fixing sh!t it going to a real valuable skill, at least until the changing tide comes and sweeps us all away.

whitepointer23
05-03-2012, 03:31 AM
Personally I think any situation that ends up qualifying to be considered "doomsday" will be a fluid situation. Parameters of survival will be constantly changing and unless one is able to adapt then survival at best is short term. Me, I'm an arrogant bastard, the arrogant bastad gene seems to always survive. I'd eat worms if worms were all that I had, rinse em off and down the hatch, deal with it.



it will be easy for you because your a cyborg. i saw your photo in the hovercraft thread.:D

rwatson
05-03-2012, 06:52 PM
it will be easy for you because your a cyborg. i saw your photo in the hovercraft thread.:D

ummmm - sorry, please explain ????

BATAAN
05-03-2012, 07:25 PM
Survival boats, various.

BATAAN
05-04-2012, 03:15 PM
I've given Bataan negative rep for insulting the service men who died in that horrific war.

I suggest others do too.

With all due respect, putting 'image' over 'truth' is always a problem I have usually resolved, with my wise father's guidance, in my own heart, by choosing truth over image, fantasy, tradition, false memories, religion of any kind other than in my own heart, phony patriotism, shallow values, vague feelings of past glory or any other means of self-deception.
While not religious, my grandparents and parents taught me how to treat and respect others as I would expect myself to be treated, no matter how different and strange they may appear, and I've been told this is a christian value, and since I think JC was a fabulous guy with great ideas, I'll buy that, though I am not a christian or anything else you can put in a box and put a name to.
I respect the American flag and volunteered for 4 years of active duty during the VN war.
I love and respect the fighting men and women of our armed forces, knowing they have the hardest job in the world for the least reward.
I merely repeated what was told me by one who was there personally, getting bombed on Dec 8 at Clark Field, killing enemy soldiers for several months in hysterical Banzai charges, getting deserted by his government in the greatest defeat of American arms in history, sh**ting blood and near death for years at a time, so I don't see how what I've said 'insults' people who died in any war.
Your comments further disparage me for putting down Native Americans (I'm a good part Cherokee by the way) death camp victims etc.
Because of the civil nature of this forum, I will stop now, before I go further, and go have a beer.

GTO
05-04-2012, 04:50 PM
The first to die were the religious ones, because they did nothing waiting to be saved by Sky Daddy but found that prayer won't cure being beaten to death by some bored Japanese Marine with a Bushido complex.

Then the know-it-alls who always had a smart answer found they didn't have an answer to Beri-Beri and Amoebic and Bacillary Dysentery all at the same time combined with a 500 calorie a day diet so they died next.

You might not consider this mocking the dead, but I SURE as hell do.
I am quite willing to step away from this subject, even though I too have a lot more to say. I'm willing, for the sake of a civil and polite forum (which first brought me here) to just drop it.

But if you continue to misrepresent my position in further responses I'll be happy to jump in with both feet.

So I'll step away from this thread - with this post - and leave what follows up to you.

BATAAN
05-04-2012, 06:47 PM
Quoting my dad and I certainly won't retract it. He didn't mock them, it was their epitaph in the stumbling thirsty ranks at the time, since they had no marked graves alongside that terrible Luzon road but were left to rot in the ditches. War vets talk in a cruel way sometimes. My heart goes out to them in their despair, abandoned by the US to their cruel fate, as MacArthur escaped to be called a hero and get covered in glory and photo-ops while the Bataan Death March and the 76,000 captured American and Filipino troops were forgotten and remain so to this day. They were considered 'shamed' because they had finally surrendered to the huge and overwhelming fresh Japanese forces thrown against them, while they themselves were given no support, and were 'shunned' in the press after except for the when the occasional uplifting hero story was trotted out to sell war bonds. Other than that, Bataan was quickly forgotten.
When Germany fessed up and paid large sums to their WW2 slave laborers out of justice, Japan never did, never will, and Pop resented the fact that his country did not stand up for him in that matter till the day he died. He was just another old vet to forget about now the battle was over and was swept under the rug and forgotten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March
After capture they were marched for days with little food or water, beaten to death, run over by trucks and tanks, bayonetted, shot, beheaded, how can I have nothing but empathy and respect for their deaths and the sacrifice of terrific prolonged battle with little supplies these heroic soldiers put up on Bataan and the horrible aftermath?
But falling to your knees and calling on God for pity and help when you are exhausted will not stop the bayonet while staying on your feet will, as he observed at the time of the stroll in the sun from Mariveles north. There were military Chaplains along who stayed alive by doing the same, and gave ultimate comfort and care to those who needed them afterwards. They knew when to talk to their God on their knees and when to do so on their feet. With all due respect to former POW Senator McCain, whose own feelings of religion gave him the power to endure a long and brutal time, we all find our own inner strength where we find it. And the know it alls who were first in line at the bordello on pay day and the first to get in a bar fight and always were in trouble with the sergeant for their smart mouth because they were smarter than anyone else found the attitude did not work when your very survival, literally, depended on quickly figuring out the complex social psychology of the Japanese army and trying to figure out those foreign words they kept screaming at you just before they hit you with a big stick, not showing how tough you were. You don't stand up 'like a man' to a Japanese soldier captor and look him in the eye, you bow deeply in submission in the usual cultural Japanese way of social organization, and those who did not figure this out in seconds, could die as a result, or a least get beaten very badly with a club or gun butt, which doesn't do a lot to increase your survival strength.
The thread was about a survival boat and I sidetracked it into survival in general based on my dad's experiences and observations and I apologize if I have given offense by doing that, and by my words, but they stand for the reasons given, and I would like to continue with peoples' ideas for doomsday boats and the reasons and scenarios that seem to bring that boat forth as a good idea for what they foresee as a 'doomsday' scenario.
Personally, after reading others' feelings, it seems a bad large area contamination caused by a disease contagion or radiological release of some kind is a good chance of happening, caused by nature or man more likely, and would seriously disrupt the system of law enforcement and resource flow, people would get hungry and thirsty and afraid of each other, and it would be best to be somewhere rather less populated and be as independent as possible. The Spent Fuel Pool at Fukushima #4 seems a realistic immediate threat to the western US.
Staying at sea in a safe area for a long time with a large boat full of supplies and tools is one option, having a small resource harvesting boat for coastal, lake or river survival seems another, though eating fish, frogs and snakes full of Cesium and Plutonium isn't good for survival chances.
Maybe the realistic use of a survival boat is to run away and stay independent as long as possible, when most others are trapped on the land with clogged roads and no gas, so the ocean going sailboat seems one choice.

pdwiley
05-04-2012, 07:11 PM
Maybe the realistic use of a survival boat is to run away and stay independent as long as possible, when most others are trapped on the land with clogged roads and no gas, so the ocean going sailboat seems one choice.

Or just live on an island, off an island, off an island as people I know do. Water barriers are great for filtering the mass invasions down.

I have great fondness for boats but the only thing they're really good for in any sort of prolonged survival situation is to take you somewhere else where you can cast yourself on the kindness of those land based scum (*).

(From a quote - there are 2 kinds of people in this world. Sailors, and land based scum).

PDW

rwatson
05-04-2012, 07:28 PM
Or just live on an island, off an island, off an island as people I know do. Water barriers are great for filtering the mass invasions down.

I have great fondness for boats but the only thing they're really good for in any sort of prolonged survival situation is to take you somewhere else where you can cast yourself on the kindness of those land based scum (*).

(From a quote - there are 2 kinds of people in this world. Sailors, and land based scum).

PDW

That's a great summary of the situation. The only hole in the concept is not allowing for the existence of of "scurvy knaves" - (waterbased scum). There are plenty of them too.

pdwiley
05-04-2012, 07:40 PM
That's a great summary of the situation. The only hole in the concept is not allowing for the existence of of "scurvy knaves" - (waterbased scum). There are plenty of them too.

That's what guns were invented for. But let's not divert there, been done to death in other threads.

PDW

BATAAN
05-04-2012, 10:32 PM
Yeah, problem with scurvy knaves is they are usually armed and there are more of them than you, with better guns and a lot more ammo, so best to hide and not be found.
I agree islands can make an excellent place to retreat from the general population since access is difficult, so a boat is a good thing to get there with and take some supplies along.

Boston
05-05-2012, 01:42 AM
With all due respect, putting 'image' over 'truth' is always a problem I have usually resolved, with my wise father's guidance, in my own heart, by choosing truth over image, fantasy, tradition, false memories, religion of any kind other than in my own heart, phony patriotism, shallow values, vague feelings of past glory or any other means of self-deception.
While not religious, my grandparents and parents taught me how to treat and respect others as I would expect myself to be treated, no matter how different and strange they may appear, and I've been told this is a christian value, and since I think JC was a fabulous guy with great ideas, I'll buy that, though I am not a christian or anything else you can put in a box and put a name to.
I respect the American flag and volunteered for 4 years of active duty during the VN war.
I love and respect the fighting men and women of our armed forces, knowing they have the hardest job in the world for the least reward.
I merely repeated what was told me by one who was there personally, getting bombed on Dec 8 at Clark Field, killing enemy soldiers for several months in hysterical Banzai charges, getting deserted by his government in the greatest defeat of American arms in history, sh**ting blood and near death for years at a time, so I don't see how what I've said 'insults' people who died in any war.
Your comments further disparage me for putting down Native Americans (I'm a good part Cherokee by the way) death camp victims etc.
Because of the civil nature of this forum, I will stop now, before I go further, and go have a beer.

don't let him get to you Batty, I threw you some points for being a good egg and having the guts to tell it like it is regardless of who's noodle got baked in the process.

same thing happens when deniers disagree over on the climate thread. They descend into jibbering nonsense and think that somehow insults will prove there point.

Its just childish ranting, ignore it as best you can, and enjoy that beer, I just realized I'm out. ;-(

whitepointer23
05-05-2012, 05:06 AM
ummmm - sorry, please explain ????

look up post 23 in bostons thread. hey look hovercraft are boats to.

BATAAN
05-05-2012, 10:27 AM
don't let him get to you Batty, I threw you some points for being a good egg and having the guts to tell it like it is regardless of who's noodle got baked in the process.

same thing happens when deniers disagree over on the climate thread. They descend into jibbering nonsense and think that somehow insults will prove there point.

Its just childish ranting, ignore it as best you can, and enjoy that beer, I just realized I'm out. ;-(
Thanks Boston- Let's keep it real and promise to avoid insults and stay civil and respectful.

BATAAN
05-05-2012, 03:59 PM
Me and my ideal survival craft and my survival buddies are here in photo 1. Most pirates would think twice, that is until we ran out of fuel and ammo in a few hours of hard fighting, then we're toast and it's back to option in photo 2, 3 and 4, which is good for at least 180 days at sea without using fuel or touching land if you load the right 100 tons of stores, and has big blackpowder shotguns with a 6" bore loaded with broken glass and scrap iron. As for the rest of the pics, I have no idea where they came from (cough), but speaking of pirates.... The guy in the green shirt is a 2nd assistant director and all the extras and screen doubles are tired of his bossy lip, so don't give pirates a hard time.

rwatson
05-05-2012, 08:36 PM
look up post 23 in bostons thread. hey look hovercraft are boats to.

Are you on something hallucinigenic ?? That's Boston.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/hey-look-hovercrafts-boats-37155-2.html#post549041

whitepointer23
05-05-2012, 10:48 PM
Are you on something hallucinigenic ?? That's Boston.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/hey-look-hovercrafts-boats-37155-2.html#post549041

yes it is boston in a cyborg costume watson. its to hard , don't worry about it . bloody taswegians should spend more time reading the posts than daydreaming about their sisters . :D:D:D:D

WestVanHan
05-06-2012, 09:53 PM
As usual when disagreement comes up (think reverse bows thread) we are talking about two different things. You are talking about living aboard for 2 years. Easily done. I go entire seasons like that, though you still have to buy things for a boat to keep it afloat.

I'm talking survival, as in what a "survivalist" does. Start naked, with no food, no water, no clothing and no shelter. Survive indefinitely based on your survival skills alone. No outside help. That is survival.

Your scenario is more like going camping. I would agree that anyone can live on a boat a couple years if they prepare for it. What can't be done is long term, self sufficient survival. That can only be done on land. So, I agree. 2 years on a boat? No big deal.
Heck, you could even enjoy martinis each evening and watch some videos. Your food is already aboard. You can kick back and grill a fish you catch with the rod you bought before you left.
All completely possible and easy, I agree. This, however, is not survival.
Two completely different situations.

Actually it would work either way for me....so why change it to a situation which will not exist to make it easier for your point?
Almost a straw man.

What about the origin of the thread which is:


Maybe a better, or at leas alternative, solution to an underground bunker would be a boat. Something that would get you away from land where most of the chaos is taking place.
What form would this boat take? What would the parameters be?
It would probably need to fairly large because you might need to stay away from land for quite a while. Would it need to be fast, to escape pirates, or just heavily armed and armored? Sail or power? Etc.


But OK I'll do away with the large boat and start out with a small boat or double kayak,some basic essentials-which we all have-and I'll make it just fine.

Or..start out with clothes on my back and I'll scavenge fishing line somewhere,find a row boat,and dine off the 100 or so edible plants and sea weeds around while roasting salmon.

BTW the last few days: several hundred pounds of halibut,salmon,crabs,and prawns.

The Haida,Kwakiutl,Salish,Nootka et al did very well for a very long time and had the most advanced and prolific art.

Can anyone tell me why their art was so advanced?

Submarine Tom
05-07-2012, 02:23 AM
Good food!

Boston
05-07-2012, 03:15 AM
Actually it would work either way for me....so why change it to a situation which will not exist to make it easier for your point?
Almost a straw man.

What about the origin of the thread which is:





But OK I'll do away with the large boat and start out with a small boat or double kayak,some basic essentials-which we all have-and I'll make it just fine.

Or..start out with clothes on my back and I'll scavenge fishing line somewhere,find a row boat,and dine off the 100 or so edible plants and sea weeds around while roasting salmon.

BTW the last few days: several hundred pounds of halibut,salmon,crabs,and prawns.

The Haida,Kwakiutl,Salish,Nootka et al did very well for a very long time and had the most advanced and prolific art.

Can anyone tell me why their art was so advanced?

If I remember its related to the amount of free time they had, which was due to environmental factors. Obtaining food for instance generally took up a bunch of time in the more ancient cultures, but where food was easily obtained; like in a culture living in one of the richest fisheries in the world, protein was just a beach away. So they had lots of time on there hands and thus, lots of time for art, language, culture, music, philosophy, things considered a luxury in most ancient cultures.

WestVanHan
05-07-2012, 08:34 PM
Kinda correct Sub and absolutely correct Boston.

Hence the reason why I have stuck to my guns that in my area and with a boat you can survive forever,and it's ten times easier than being locked up in some cabin in an icy winter for 5 months a year.

There was a squatter who lived for decades in Barkley Sound...can't recall his name.
There are a few I know of living up remote inlets,go into town once a year for staples.

Knew of a guy who'd ocean kayak up the coast in May for 5 months,he'd take a bag of beans and rice and catch the rest.
I always figured he was growing pot,but he may have been communing with nature and writing poems....

CatBuilder
05-08-2012, 06:54 AM
Vancouver. In the winter. On a boat. That's better than a cabin on land? What kind of heater does your boat have? And where will you buy the fuel for it?

More importantly, without a job or access to banks, how will you buy fuel for it?

Have you ever lived aboard a boat?

Ever wintered over on one?

mydauphin
05-08-2012, 09:26 AM
Winter on a boat.... Electric blanket, or a friend, or a nice fire below deck. Or two out of three works. Done all of them, but better to head south.
Knew a guy that lived in a 9 foot dingy, he lived on little barrier island in Biscayne bay, kind of a maritime bum. He slept on island at night, moved to mainland during day, got food and drink. Dingy was important because he kept out of sight of police that way. I dont know what happened when the weather got to 40 degrees.

BATAAN
05-08-2012, 10:06 AM
Here's 86 year-old Allen Farrell, living aboard his series of self-designed and built boats in BC for 65+ years.
His last one was shallow draft, had no engine, woodstove that burned mostly beach-combed Fir bark, and he ate lots of clams and salmon.
Everything about his life was very low-tech and able to be repaired with simple tools and materials from the beach or forest.
For him, none of this was theory and I had the pleasure of a trip to BC to interview and see his lovely boat and life and get him on video.
Here he is in three 15-minute segments.
http://youtu.be/RFOQecx14NQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFb3AfxxgO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBDOUSd-Ag

CatBuilder
05-08-2012, 10:11 AM
Ha ha ha! That's funny Mydauphin. :)

Real winter on a boat (where west van is from or Maine) means heat is part of the survival game. No heat, no life.

The more I read, the more I think 9 out of 10 people will die in the first month. Par and I will be the neighbors, 100 miles apart, with a bunch of dead bodies between .

Has anyone here actually done this stuff, or are you all just daydreaming?

I've spent 2 winters aboard in Maine. Wood stove was the only heat and i didn't buy the wood. Dinghying enough firewood to last a week takes nearly half a week. Then you need to keep the boat up and find drinking water. There isn't enough time in the week to cut holes in the ice to fish or go to open water each day to fish. West van, if he goes through with the plan to survive on his big power boat, will die in less than a month. Kind of sucks because I like the guy. :)

CatBuilder
05-08-2012, 10:13 AM
Here's 86 year-old Allen Farrell, living aboard his series of self-designed and built boats in BC for 65+ years.
His last one was shallow draft, had no engine, woodstove that burned mostly beach-combed Fir bark, and he ate lots of clams and salmon.
Everything about his life was very low-tech and able to be repaired with simple tools and materials from the beach or forest.
For him, none of this was theory and I had the pleasure of a trip to BC to interview and see his lovely boat and life and get him on video.
Here he is in three 15-minute segments.
http://youtu.be/RFOQecx14NQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFb3AfxxgO0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBDOUSd-Ag

Yeah, anyone can live aboard. I did. We are talking about doomsday. No outside resources.

Hell, I might as well retire from these threads and let you all figure it out as you are dying on a boat.

mydauphin
05-08-2012, 10:25 AM
The stories I said are all true. Three winters ago, I was divorced, broke, unemployed, and never prepared my boat for 40 degree weather. My hatches didnt close good, had only a small electric heater. It raised temp about 5 degrees in cabin, but not enough. So I would boil water in kitchen, and started alcohol fire on cabin floor in a double pot system. This would raise temperature enough that i could cool lay under blanket. Did that for a could of nights, it was very hard. Solution electric blankets, work great, low power compsumption, like 20watts.

The point is, never underestimate cold weather on a boat, it is far worse than heat. Most boat not designed for cold. If there is a natural disaster doomsday there is at least a 50% chance of colder weather, so heaters are important, and good insulation.

Presently, i redesigned boat, and 40degrees not a problem, as a side effect heat doesnt get in either.

BATAAN
05-08-2012, 10:25 AM
Yeah, anyone can live aboard. I did. We are talking about doomsday. No outside resources.

Hell, I might as well retire from these threads and let you all figure it out as you are dying on a boat.
Allen came pretty close to living on his boat with no outside resources, and what to him was luxurious living, to others would be bare-bones survival.
He and Sharie in their 80s collected Fir Bark barefooted from the beaches in winter, but it's not Maine and the sea does not freeze in BC.
Fir bark by the way burns like coal even when wet, is a wonderful fuel and is easily found in the beach drift piles in the Pacific NW.
I lived aboard a very simple boat for nearly 30 years, but not at a survival level except in Mexico, where we ate fish a lot and spent weeks at a time in isolated anchorages.
A well-stocked simple boat that does not depend on liquid fuel for long term function seems like the best choice, coupled with a remote wilderness area with abundant food and fuel resources, like western BC.
If you can row and sail you can do it long after engines quit for lack of fuel, and if you are in an area that historically supported an aboriginal population well, your chances of not starving are better.

pdwiley
05-08-2012, 07:35 PM
Ha ha ha! That's funny Mydauphin. :)

Real winter on a boat (where west van is from or Maine) means heat is part of the survival game. No heat, no life.

The more I read, the more I think 9 out of 10 people will die in the first month. Par and I will be the neighbors, 100 miles apart, with a bunch of dead bodies between .

Has anyone here actually done this stuff, or are you all just daydreaming?

I've spent 2 winters aboard in Maine. Wood stove was the only heat and i didn't buy the wood. Dinghying enough firewood to last a week takes nearly half a week. Then you need to keep the boat up and find drinking water. There isn't enough time in the week to cut holes in the ice to fish or go to open water each day to fish. West van, if he goes through with the plan to survive on his big power boat, will die in less than a month. Kind of sucks because I like the guy. :)

Never been to BC so I can't comment except on what I've read, but...

From what I understand the climate is like here but not so nice :-) Cool maritime climate, winters close to or somewhat below 0C, not really cold. Sea never freezes over. A well insulated boat with small chip heater or similar should do just fine.

Nothing like so severe as Maine.

As for doing it, I built the house I'm living in. I did it by building a small hut on site, 2.7 x 4.8m, in a few days, and living in it until the house was finished. I spent 2 winters in that hut, about the same space or less than the cabin of the boat I'm building, and nowhere near as well insulated. I cooked using gas, had no running water or indoor toilet. I did have 240V power but a single 1200W heater. A small wood heater would have been a lot better but I couldn't find one at the right price, didn't have my shop set up to make one as all my heavy tools were in storage (and I didn't have the power to drive them).

I guarantee you that, short of some disease or accident that none of us can avoid (including you and PAR) come an economic collapse taking out infrastructure, power and comms, a month after it happens I'll be sitting here alive, well fed and happy, re-reading my library and somewhat bored due to being cut off from the net. I've got pretty much everything I need right here.

If my boat is finished, fine. It's set up to be simple and maintainable. I've got a Dickinson diesel heater for it and I could convert it to burning wood if I had to. I've also been collecting those Coleman and Tilley type kerosene pressure lamps for some years. Those babies give you both white light and a lot of heat, a good thing in the cold.

Might be time to top up my supplies of rice & pasta, though.

PDW

rwatson
05-08-2012, 08:01 PM
.... short of some disease or accident that none of us can avoid ...

That fascinating link in earlier posts, talking to the guy that survived the civil war in Croatia ( i think ) brought home the importance of medical supplies. He was a trained nurse, and had stocked up on Antibiotics and alcohol( for medicinal and other purposes.)

Made me realise the often forgotten risk of infection.

Boston
05-08-2012, 08:48 PM
well Cat I"ve spent months in the back country. Used to head out with minimal stuff regularly up in Vermont; I've spent weeks and weeks in the Rockies as well as several months in the Sonoran desert, which you can't do any more because of the illegals and the drug runners.

I've got wilderness survival down. A few things help, but I'd survive anyway, a gun, knife, tent is always nice, rope or wire and fire. Even without I've no doubt I can survive just about anywhere. A way to purify water is kinda a must, if you get Gardie your done. I wouldn't know jack about surviving on a boat, although I'd likely find a way to survive, but on land, no worries.

pdwiley
05-08-2012, 10:37 PM
That fascinating link in earlier posts, talking to the guy that survived the civil war in Croatia ( i think ) brought home the importance of medical supplies. He was a trained nurse, and had stocked up on Antibiotics and alcohol( for medicinal and other purposes.)

Made me realise the often forgotten risk of infection.

Yes. The 'survive in the woods' thing is all very well but all it takes is a single accident or infected splinter that you can't get over, and you're history. The entire mindset is predicated on the theory that shyt happens to other people and that they can come out of the woods to inherit the leavings of civilisation. This is a fantasy that has no historical support; generally the hunter-gatherer types get exterminated by the better organised farmer/village types over time.

I bought 5 litres of methylated spirits the other day for general cleanup use and paint thinner, perhaps I should lay in some more. Antibiotics are a bit more difficult without a friendly doctor and even then, lots require refrigeration to extend their expiry date.

Big divert from the topic anyway. I still think Bataan comes closest if we're talking about boats. Heavy displacement, timber, simple sail rig that's easily repaired with common materials, able to take the ground for repairs or antifouling etc. Around here one of the big Huon pine cray boat motorsailers would be the way to go for a liveaboard.

PDW

Frosty
05-08-2012, 10:52 PM
This is like a class of 4 year olds talking about going into space. I would do this and I would do that.

None of you know what hunger is or cold or desperation.

This all sounds like American high five crap to me.

Your going to buy this and stock up ---where there is no shops. You drop your knife, now what.

The first 6 month will be hell until most people die. Then you will be more alone.

Honesty and trust will have to return with the consequences being execution.

Colonies, (herd) is the only way.

mydauphin
05-09-2012, 08:28 AM
Well being prepared is still a good option, suicide another. I strive for a balance between the two. I have a simple method that I learned from the government. Why buy one when you can buy two or three. Yes, it makes things more expensive, but I save money over time and I have spares. When the **** happens - I even have spare bullets.

Squidly-Diddly
05-09-2012, 11:13 AM
more about wildness survival than all the Europeans put together.

It cracked me up when we get some European kid transferred in and they would think they were "hikers", then we'd take them to your typical American forest (20 minutes drive from downtown "Silicon Valley") and they would be overwhelmed. Apparently in Germany and elsewhere they actually 'tidy up' what they call 'forests'(tree farms) and don't have huge piles of fallen impassable wood and all the paths are more or less actual paths.

When I was 'up in the mtns of Colorado (under 9000') we had some kid from Russia, and while he was versed in plain old cold good enough, he was amazed 'normal' people would be living in craggy mountains, and in little houses out of view of the rest of the herd. He thought it was amazing 10-12 year old boys would be out hiking alone without anyone knowing where they might be.

And we actually practiced all that Tom Sawyer or Boy Scout Handbook stuff about building emergency shelters out of trees with just an axe, or just busting branches, etc.


Of course, then you got the more recently arrived "Homies" who will stay in the same inner-city 4 block slum from the time they are born to when they "turn out" and go to prison. Yeah, a actually knew a guy whose first trip past his gang's turf was to State Prison about 60 miles away.

CatBuilder
05-09-2012, 02:01 PM
Boston... I have no doubts about you making it. None.

I was speaking to the idea of surviving in BC Candada (heat?) on a large power boat. Or, any boat based survival, as compared to land based. There is no contest. Boats take a lot of work. Work you don't have time for if you are looking for water and food (plus heat up north).

Survival on a boat is a recipe for death. Not enough resources and too much work that has nothing to do with obtaining food and water.

Boston? He will be neighbors as well with PAR. :)

PDW: Where will you get cooking gas, electricity, diesel for the diesel heater, food, water, etc?

TeddyDiver
05-09-2012, 03:12 PM
Heating is not a necessity.. a good Arctic sleeping bag (-50C) is..
Been there done that ;)

CatBuilder
05-09-2012, 03:58 PM
Heating is not a necessity.. a good Arctic sleeping bag (-50C) is..
Been there done that ;)

How many years did you do that for? Was it camping, or survival?

What do you do with the huge block of ice you wanted to drink in the morning?

Wintering over in Maine both years, I also used an arctic bag because i did not want to tend the wood stove in the middle of the night. I was without heat only from about midnight to 6am. Otherwise, I had the wood stove running continuously. Still, it went well below 0c 32f by morning on most nights.

If not for the continuous use of the woodstove, i would not have been able to drink the water I had. It would be frozen. The 6 hrs without heat was enough to chill it almost to slush, but not freeze it.

So many assumptions...

TeddyDiver
05-09-2012, 04:04 PM
Two years.. (thou didn't use the bag summer times). Had huskies those days so mostly outdoors. Lot of fats in our diet some proteins hardly no carbs. Water from a hole in the ice. No 1 rule for arctic living: Don't sweat :D

mydauphin
05-09-2012, 07:00 PM
The tropics for me..

pdwiley
05-09-2012, 09:28 PM
PDW: Where will you get cooking gas, electricity, diesel for the diesel heater, food, water, etc?

Gas, diesel etc is a luxury not a necessity. I can and have cooked with wood. I have a lot of wood and the nice thing is, it keeps on growing. As it's a lot more work than gas & diesel, I don't use it now. But I could. I've done it before.

Anyway I know my LPG consumption for cooking in this house because I've been using it for the last 10 years and I've got 2 years in cylinders here already. That gives me those 2 years time to sort out something else.

Food & water, I've already got. In fact I have 50 tonnes of fresh water stored. I have a fenced garden, I have a lot of fruit trees. There is abundant (now) wildlife. Neighbours run stock, have different varieties of trees, one even has a small vineyard so we have the basics of an alcohol power economy as lots more land could be put to grapes, beet etc. I know how to build a still and have the tools to do so.

Power might be a medium to long term problem. As I have a generator and fuel it's not a short term one.

You seem to be missing the point I'm trying to make - short of a sea level rise, tsunami or similar that forces me off my property, I'm going nowhere. I think taking to a boat *or* running off into the woods is contra-survival for me. I already have what most of you want to be survivors want to have. Someone would have to take what I have off of me. Good luck with that, I have neighbours that I'm on good terms with and we all look out for each other. Not saying it can't be done but it's less likely IMO than dying in a forest somewhere after you broke your leg. There aren't ravening hordes of lawless and starving people armed to the teeth just up the road to descend on me.

The point I was trying to make was, if you have to take to a boat, one like Bataan's is a good choice because of its characteristics. One like you're building is, IMO, a poor one unless it's strictly to get to somewhere else faster than Bataan could do.

This is the doomsday *boat* thread, remember? It's a silly thread but it's moderately entertaining. Let's not take it all too seriously.

PDW

Boston
05-10-2012, 05:50 AM
Thing about surviving in North America if society breaks down is that we know how rough our cities can be even in good times. I can just picture "collection" parties heading out to the suburbs armed to the teeth. In which case a nice stationary 50k of clean fresh water, ( a commodity in the post water treatment plant era ) would be a nice find. Even if they did have to waste a few bullets and a day or two getting through the owner. No I'd aim for the remotest place I could and bring very little. In the end you need shelter 1st, water, then food. But avoiding exposure is key to survival. The luxury of petrol fuels will be short lived. Gas deteriorates over time as does diesel. So a year maybe two unless someone is able to hold a fossil fuels production facility against the mob. I guess my pyrolysis system would come in handy right about then but its big and a PITA to have to drag around with me, so I'd probably bury it for future leverage if I needed it.

Personally I'd prefer not to engage in any find and hold strategies. I'd stay low and out of site until, in my wanderings I found an enclave that could use my talents/tools. assuming I could cling to the truck that long. Tools are in the trailer. Thing is even thats a juicy target, might just be better off going light into the sunset untill things quiet down.

Unfortunately the more likely scenario is one in which the climate itself is the enemy. In which case no amount of wilderness survival skills are going to make much difference. I'd have to move gradually north but be particularly mindful of unusual weather events, adequate shelter would be a primary concern, guessing whether to stick or move would be like playing Russian roulette.

rwatson
05-10-2012, 06:10 AM
.....
Anyway I know my LPG consumption for cooking in this house because I've been using it for the last 10 years and I've got 2 years in cylinders here already. That gives me those 2 years time to sort out something else.

Food & water, I've already got. In fact I have 50 tonnes of fresh water stored. I have a fenced garden, I have a lot of fruit trees. There is abundant (now) wildlife. Neighbours run stock, have different varieties of trees, one even has a small vineyard so we have the basics of an alcohol power economy as lots more land could be put to grapes, beet etc. I know how to build a still and have the tools to do so.
.......
This is the doomsday *boat* thread, remember? It's a silly thread but it's moderately entertaining. Let's not take it all too seriously.

PDW



Whew - I was really worried about the end of the world, but now I know I am only 30 minutes away from 2 years worth of lpg :D





Hey, is this nav seat any use to you ?

(more pics at http://machinery4sale.weebly.com/captains-nav-chair.html )

mydauphin
05-10-2012, 08:57 AM
Hey, is this nav seat any use to you ?

(more pics at http://machinery4sale.weebly.com/captains-nav-chair.html )

I love the chairs, I would buy 5 or 6, but not from Australia, the shipping might be a little high.

FAST FRED
05-10-2012, 09:09 AM
"Unfortunately the more likely scenario is one in which the climate itself is the enemy. In which case no amount of wilderness survival skills are going to make much difference. I'd have to move gradually north ."

Probably that is the wrong direction.
We are in an "interglaciene age" , between glaciation periods.

Since GLACIERS are a known part of the Earths recent history ,
and the computer generated hoax of global warming is long past believing , going South might be more realistic than surviving in solid ice for the rest of your life.

Take a book on Tropical Medicine , there is lots of stuff in the south that sees us as food!

FF

Boston
05-10-2012, 07:37 PM
Oh please, can we at least pretend to deal with reality. An economic melt down is predicted by MIT researchers by about 2035 or so. Environmental collapse at somewhere between +4~6°C which is also likely to happen right around the same time. So social upheaval followed by environmental meltdown is our most likely scenario.

If anything the MIT study would be more in question than the facts of climate shift, which 98% of the people who study it agree is happening and is caused by man.

lets just forget our differences and stick to the subject. A Doomsday boat is unsurvivable in a climate shift event, or any other, at least according to those of us who've tried it, which leaves us either surviving in an enclave/target or finding the most far away corner possible to hang on as long as possible, on minimal supplies, hopefully with a few friends to help out along the way.

BATAAN
05-10-2012, 08:01 PM
It's easy to deny science, just plug up your ears and scream I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA.... Personally, I grew up around a lot of scientists and I learned that they are seldom bullshi**ers, value fact and reason above all else to the point of absurdity, and work doggedly to prove themselves wrong, not right, because that is what science is all about, finding out where your own biases have led you astray in your logic and experiment, and correcting it. The science of climate change has been examined over and over and the same answer keeps staring us in the face, add methane and CO2 to our closed atmosphere in large amounts and the temperature goes up, a lot.
I moved 1000 miles north from where I was born and raised, and in my new home many of the older residents marvel at how the seasons have radically changed, the birds come at different times, the insects are different, it doesn't snow nearly as much, everything changed, just in the last 50 years.
Personally, I believe the survival situation will come gradually as our supply systems decay and fail from a combination of climate change, social-political regression and just plain greed as the profit takers take everything that is left.
Millions and millions of the 'not rich' will be fighting for a smaller and smaller piece of the world pie and it will be ugly, so I plan on going to a small hidden cove in SE Alaska with a southerly exposure and an old Indian midden indicating it's a good place to stay. Out front at low tide are 'clam gardens' built long ago by the locals, still producing big crops of bivalves for hundreds of years. Around the point is a fish weir, just needing the stakes replaced but the stone walls still there. Maybe I'll have time for art and culture like the original inhabitants.

pdwiley
05-10-2012, 08:32 PM
Thing about surviving in North America if society breaks down is that we know how rough our cities can be even in good times. I can just picture "collection" parties heading out to the suburbs armed to the teeth. In which case a nice stationary 50k of clean fresh water, ( a commodity in the post water treatment plant era ) would be a nice find. Even if they did have to waste a few bullets and a day or two getting through the owner.

You (and Catbuilder and PAR) are missing the point.

I have ALREADY relocated to one of those nice places.

There *is* no 'rough' city on this island.

There *are* no ravening hordes of suburban scum armed to the teeth.

Rural property owners in this country are far, far, far more likely to be armed, and know how to use those arms, than 99% of the people living in the cities.

Finally, absent truly massive pollution of all global water supplies, having water storage like mine is pretty irrelevant where I live. The water for the city is gravity-fed off of the mountain behind the city. There is no shortage and there isn't likely to be. There are 3 reservoirs in much closer proximity than I am. I have that much water because I built my house on top of my water tank. Another one of those differences between the USA & Australia - typically we store rainwater in tanks, you guys suck up groundwater from wells. What I have isn't unusual. Most of my neighbours have similar amounts stored. We all have small dams as well, for low level irrigation of gardens etc.

Your apocalyptic mental picture of the suburban hordes descending might have some applicability to US cities but it doesn't apply here where I live. Bataan's vision of hunkering in a nice cove somewhere is fine. Guess what, I've already done it.

PDW

pdwiley
05-10-2012, 08:38 PM
Whew - I was really worried about the end of the world, but now I know I am only 30 minutes away from 2 years worth of lpg :D


Given that I use approx 9 kg a year and I know where you live, you're less than 2 km away from about 50 year's supply as long as you get in early. I don't think I'll lose too much sleep over people lusting after my 6 bottles...

You going to the Kettering junk sale AKA marine goods sale tomorrow? I'm going to drop by there in the morning to see what's on offer. If you're around, drop by here or give me a call - I think you've got my phone numbers.

PDW

SheetWise
05-10-2012, 10:42 PM
Oh please, can we at least pretend to deal with reality. An economic melt down is predicted by MIT researchers by about 2035 or so.

Did you check to see if they've ever been right in the past? For example, they certainly saw the current financial crisis coming in 2007, or early 2008 at the latest -- right?

I've got a lot of respect for MIT, but when it comes to the soft sciences they're just as fallible as everyone else. On top of which, predictions like that are only made by macro economists -- which arguably is not a science at all, it's a political tool.

Boston
05-10-2012, 10:59 PM
You got a point but there was a hitch, they used resource depletion as part of there measuring system to derive the most likely time frame. I'm sure there is a lot of guess work but its a study thats been going since the 70s and they've just updated there work, which is why it made the news again.

While I'm sure there is a lot of ifs and maybe's involved, these guys just "could" be onto something.

Oh and that last bust, was two major and very crooked things combined, that pretty much went down behind closed doors. A whole bunch of shady bank transactions designed to foist off bad mortgages onto competitor banks which triggered a change in the workforce, number of people working as well as the quality of what jobs were available. From which we have yet to really recover.

Since the shady transactions led to the die off in jobs it was likely pretty hard to predict unless there was some way to know that millions of slippery mortgages where being upgraded and sold off to the unsuspecting.

in either case your right tho
the economic collapse part of my last is the questionable part. The climate change part is about as certain as any theory has ever been. 98% is probably the largest consensus ever.

rwatson
05-11-2012, 06:11 AM
.... You going to the Kettering junk sale AKA marine goods sale tomorrow? I'm going to drop by there in the morning to see what's on offer. If you're around, drop by here or give me a call - I think you've got my phone numbers.

PDW

Thats a great idea. My son is visiting from Finland, so we could take a run down there as sightseeing as well as checking out the marine sale.

I found you phone no, so I will check on your movements when i know what we are doing tomorrow.

I was serious about that seat by the way - I bought it to chop up for steel, but it seems like a bit of a waste for that.

SheetWise
05-11-2012, 06:12 AM
Since the shady transactions led to the die off in jobs it was likely pretty hard to predict unless there was some way to know that millions of slippery mortgages where being upgraded and sold off to the unsuspecting.

Actually, many people saw it coming. Here's an interesting perspective (http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2012/02/william_black_o.html).

The climate change part is about as certain as any theory has ever been. 98% is probably the largest consensus ever.

I don't discuss religion when there's a believer in the room.

FAST FRED
05-11-2012, 06:45 AM
"The climate change part is about as certain as any theory has ever been. 98% is probably the largest consensus ever. "

Real science is not put to a vote, it needs "proof".

99% believed in the flat earth,

None of the computer climate models actually work, outside the cells where they were created , with Gov "research" funding.

####

AN economic collapse is currently under way , Greece? Spain? Portugal? Ireland?Italy?

Best "cure" for the Euro would seem to be for Germany to depart , then the Euro can depreciate to 4 to 10 to the dollar , and Euroland will be competative again ,,, for a while.

AS long as politicians can get into office with public candy handouts , the end will stay near!

FF

Boston
05-11-2012, 07:49 AM
Ahahhaahhaahahahahahhahahaha, "none of the computer models work", ah thats just to funny. :P:P:P:P. None eh, yikes, and where did you dream that up at ? :D

Climate models are working just fine

IPCC 2007 WGI, Chapter 8 report by Randall, et al. (2007):

There is considerable confidence that Atmosphere-Ocean General Circulation Models (AOGCMs) provide credible quantitative estimates of future climate change, particularly at continental and larger scales.

Models now being used in applications by major climate modeling groups better simulate seasonally varying patterns of precipitation, mean sea level pressure and surface air temperature than the models relied on by these same groups at the time of the IPCC Third Assessment Repport (TAR).

Model global temperature projections made over the last two decades have also been in overall agreement with subsequent observations over that period.

Some AOGCMs can now simulate important aspects of the El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO).

The ability of AOGCMs to simulate extreme events, especially hot and cold spells, has improved.

Atmosphere-Ocean General Circulation Models are able to simulate extreme warm temperatures, cold air outbreaks and frost days reasonably well.

Models also reproduce other observed changes, such as the faster increase in nighttime than in daytime temperatures and the larger degree of warming in the Arctic known as polar amplification.

Models account for a very large fraction of the global temperature pattern: the correlation coefficient between the simulated and observed spatial patterns of annual mean temperature is typically about 0.98 for individual models. This supports the view that major processes governing surface temperature climatology are represented with a reasonable degree of fidelity by the models.

The models, as a group, clearly capture the differences between marine and continental environments and the larger magnitude of the annual cycle found at higher latitudes, but there is a general tendency to underestimate the annual temperature range over eastern Siberia. In general, the largest fractional errors are found over the oceans (e.g., over much of tropical South America and off the east coasts of North America and Asia). These exceptions to the overall good agreement illustrate a general characteristic of current climate models: the largest-scale features of climate are simulated more accurately than regional- and smaller-scale features.

Models predict the small, short-term global cooling (and subsequent recovery) which has followed major volcanic eruptions, such as that of Mt. Pinatubo in 1991

Simulation of extratropical cyclones has improved. Some models used for projections of tropical cyclone changes can simulate successfully the observed frequency and distribution of tropical cyclones.

The models capture the dominant extratropical patterns of variability including the Northern and Southern Annular Modes, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, the Pacific-North American and Cold Ocean-Warm Land Patterns.
With a few exceptions, the models can simulate the observed zonal mean of the annual mean outgoing LW within 10 W/m2 (an error of around 5%) The models reproduce the relative minimum in this field near the equator where the relatively high humidity and extensive cloud cover in the tropics raises the effective height (and lowers the effective temperature) at which LW radiation emanates to space.

The seasonal cycle of the outgoing LW radiation pattern is also reasonably well simulated by models.

The models capture the large-scale zonal mean precipitation differences, suggesting that they can adequately represent these features of atmospheric circulation. Moreover, there is some evidence that models have improved over the last several years in simulating the annual cycle of the precipitation patterns.

Models also simulate some of the major regional characteristics of the precipitation field, including the major convergence zones and the maxima over tropical rain forests, although there is a tendency to underestimate rainfall over the Amazon.

Confidence has also increased in the ability of GCMs to represent upper-tropospheric humidity and its variations, both free and forced. Together, upper-tropospheric observational and modeling evidence provide strong support for a combined water vapor/lapse rate feedback of around the strength found in GCMs (approximately 1 W/m2 oC-1, corresponding to around a 50% amplification of global mean warming).

and its got nothing to do with religion, its just basic science. Thousands of researchers working tirelessly to "disprove" there various hypothesis and in the end discover the realities of our changing atmospheric chemistry. A very strong theory, Rapid Global Climate Shift is that stark reality that has emerged.

mydauphin
05-11-2012, 08:39 AM
"The climate change part is about as certain as any theory has ever been. 98% is probably the largest consensus ever. "

Real science is not put to a vote, it needs "proof".

99% believed in the flat earth,

None of the computer climate models actually work, outside the cells where they were created , with Gov "research" funding.

####

AN economic collapse is currently under way , Greece? Spain? Portugal? Ireland?Italy?

Best "cure" for the Euro would seem to be for Germany to depart , then the Euro can depreciate to 4 to 10 to the dollar , and Euroland will be competative again ,,, for a while.

AS long as politicians can get into office with public candy handouts , the end will stay near!

FF

Perfectly said.

A couple more points;

Since when is science a consensus and not about proof. When you believe by faith it is a religion. Belief without proof is a religion. You might as well believe that dancing causes rain.

Climate models for a couple days are fairly reliable, take them out a month and they fall through their face. Taking them them out 100 years or more is just silly. Start dancing again.

The earth is not a simple lab experiment, we simply don't know how it works yet. Other factors like the SUN, and even microbes have more to do with climate than we understand. The ocean is full of methane, and it bubbles up all the time, volcanoes, meteoroids, all have drastic effects.

Lets worry about the real problems.
Half the world wants to rob us, kill us or otherwise destroy us, so they can have our prosperity. And then there are the people that feel guilty and want to give it to them. Yet, people like in Greece or France want everything for free but don't want to do the hard work.

So stick your head in the sand and blame global warming when you drown in your own delusions and call it science.

She blinded me with science....

BATAAN
05-11-2012, 10:19 AM
Excuse me? "...people like in Greece or France want everything for free and don't want to do the hard work." Whatever you're smoking, I want some. The world's fifth largest economy, France, is not made by people who don't want to work. By making completely absurd, sound-bite, bumper sticker statements like this, anything else you might say with more worth is called into question.

TeddyDiver
05-11-2012, 10:57 AM
In a moment, or maybe it has happened, China is the ultimate economical power and the US is the looser and in depth up to ears. So are you the new Greece?
Another matter are the theories, climate, economics what ever, as the word says they are theories and cannot be proven without empirical proof. The point with them is the fact that when they are proved to be true or false it's too late to react other way except damage control. Becouse of this we should take care and think about the worst case scenarios, either way, better safe than sorry... anyways IMHO

SheetWise
05-11-2012, 11:04 AM
Climate models are working just fine

Models now being used in applications by major climate modeling groups better simulate seasonally varying patterns of precipitation, mean sea level pressure and surface air temperature than the models relied on by these same groups at the time of the IPCC Third Assessment Report (TAR).

Model global temperature projections made over the last two decades have also been in overall agreement with subsequent observations over that period.



You've have to carefully read your own propaganda. A quick search shows that the referrenced IPCC Third Assessment Report was in 2001. The report you're quoting was 2007 -- six years later. So ... six years after the 3rd report, they are claiming "two decades" of "overall agreement" using models that "better simulate" those relied on six years earlier.

Don't you understand what they're saying? They are fitting the model to observation. I can design a model that predicts roulette if I can keep refitting it.

I want to give this discussion up -- but you're way off base in your statement that "climate models are working just fine." Way off base. BTW -- Why are you quoting a 2007 paper? We know they were fudging the record during that period. Are they still making these absurd claims?

Here's a report on weather modeling from a couple of honest scientists;


Two hurricane forecasters admit that while their models fit beautifully in hindsight, they were incapable of predicting the future (http://cafehayek.com/2011/12/man-bites-dog.html):

Two top U.S. hurricane forecasters, revered like rock stars in Deep South hurricane country, are quitting the practice because it doesn’t work.

William Gray and Phil Klotzbach say a look back shows their past 20 years of forecasts had no value.

The two scientists from Colorado State University will still discuss different probabilities as hurricane seasons approach — a much more cautious approach. But the shift signals how far humans are, even with supercomputers, from truly knowing what our weather will do next.



I'm sure these two researchers aren't giving up their quest -- and they may find it some day. What they're admitting is that it's irresponsible at this time to share their results with the public, because there are no logical conclusions that can be drawn from the models ... yet.

Boston
05-11-2012, 12:11 PM
of course they calibrate the models using all the latest data.

Then they see if the models are capable of making predictions

which according to the report they have been doing accurately for about 20 years,

and of course that time frame will be dependent on when the report was written.

yes its a complex problem, and its taken a while for accurate models of "climate" to be produced but they have, and they are working "just fine"

Yur example of hurricane modeling is one of weather, not climate, weather is much harder to predict than climate as one is an average and the other is subject to edge effects. Deal is we're talking climate models not weather models.

Cheers
B

our most likely catastrophe will be climate related and as such those who prepare for it as best they can will be most likely to last the longest. Albeit in a radically changed/changing world.

SheetWise
05-11-2012, 01:03 PM
of course they calibrate the models using all the latest data.

Then they see if the models are capable of making predictions

which according to the report they have been doing accurately for about 20 years ...

They're making ex ante "predictions" by fitting the latest data. Sorry Boston, but the only thing you're going to learn by studying the proponents of these theories is the degree of dogma and hubris that motivates them. Bad science is not science.

mydauphin
05-11-2012, 06:02 PM
Excuse me? "...people like in Greece or France want everything for free and don't want to do the hard work." Whatever you're smoking, I want some. The world's fifth largest economy, France, is not made by people who don't want to work. By making completely absurd, sound-bite, bumper sticker statements like this, anything else you might say with more worth is called into question.

People all over the first world have gotten fat and lazy during the good times. USA included. There is a new world order here, and the rich countries are not going to be so rich. Everyone is going to be a little poorer, of course a few are going to be much richer. France may see their GDP go down http://www.economist.com/node/21551478 check this article. I am not quoting wikipedia here

Greece will probably go from bad to worse, they will likely have to leave the Euro and get back to exporting, and their people are going to enjoy French like 75% taxation.

It is not that people don't want to work, it is that they all want to be overpaid for it...

Boston
05-11-2012, 06:14 PM
oh, good use of term, I haven't heard of that one in about 30 years. Lets see if I can remember the proper usage.

well they're certainly not making ex post predictions, IE they don't wait till the prediction date then run the model a few times till it makes an prediction, and then alter the model to suggest it had predicted the actual data collected. If thats what your implying. They use a pre calibrated model to make a prediction a year or a few years in advance and then await the results to check the accuracy of the model. Its working according to the peeps who actually do climate change studies.

I've gotta go with the 98% on stuff like this cause I'm not any kinda expert on these models. But I think its fair to say that in the dog eat dog world of climate studies if someones not being honest they usually get outed pretty quick. Take most of the top tier of the denier scientists. Pretty much all of them ( all dozen or so ) have been found to be on the take from the oil and gas industry.

Another good example is Mann, look at all the grief he got for not providing the math in his original work on his CO2 graphs. Turns out his work was right on the money but he sure took a lot of flack over not presenting a complete methodology description.

In a nut shell I've got one camp telling me the models don't work, and the leaders of that camp are straight out of the oil and gas disinformation campaign. On the other hand I've got 98% of climate scientists telling me that these models are working fine as far back as, what was that date you mentioned 01, thats quite a while ago. So it might be reasonable to say that these models have been up and working properly for about 30 years now.

for me, this ones pretty easy, nope I'm not any kinda expert on these climate models. But its not hard to see who's got the credibility on there side when looking into who's saying what.

I just can't picture thousands of scientist the world over working under the guise or dogma or hubris. Its a very dedicated bunch who most assuredly believe in what the're doing.

Cheers
B

SheetWise
05-11-2012, 07:04 PM
Well they're certainly not making ex post predictions, IE they don't wait till the prediction date then run the model a few times till it makes an prediction, and then alter the model to suggest it had predicted the actual data collected.

Your IE is wrong. They wait until the prediction date, update the model with additional information gathered between the prediction and the prediction date, and then run the new and improved model for correlation. It's a common game, and if they weren't doing it they wouldn't describe (cloak) their methods the way they do.

Its a very dedicated bunch who most assuredly believe in what they're doing.

That's true. You've described the real problem.

Boston
05-11-2012, 07:36 PM
yes they calibrate the model with new information constantly,. but that doesn't mean there fudging past predictions, it just means its an ongoing work to improve the models.

They make a prediction, and see if it is accurate, if it is they know they got there model right, at least in that one area, if its not they recalibrate the model and try it again. You forget I know a bunch of these guys up in boulder and although the models themselves are Greek to me I know how many people are up there checking each others work. If someone was fudging model predictions there'd be a lynching

mydauphin
05-11-2012, 08:59 PM
Shouldn't this discussion be over here.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/all-things-boats-and-boating/global-warming-humans-blame-13720-229.html

SheetWise
05-11-2012, 09:03 PM
yes they calibrate the model with new information constantly, but that doesn't mean there fudging past predictions, it just means its an ongoing work to improve the models.

It's known as "fitting" ...

They make a prediction, and see if it is accurate, if it is they know they got their model right, at least in that one area ...

Absolutely false. There can be hundreds, if not thousands of incorrect assumptions at the margins which will produce a match -- or incorrect weighting factors and assumptions that will fail when a variable is unknown or unaccounted for. It's not that simple -- not even close.

Friedman discusses this today (http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2012/05/more-on-nordhaus-and-global-warming.html), and provides this link (http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2012/05/11/what-nordhaus-gets-wrong/).

You forget I know a bunch of these guys up in boulder and although the models themselves are Greek to me I know how many people are up there checking each others work.

I know. Problem is, they're all looking for the same thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).

If someone was fudging model predictions there'd be a lynching

Is that what happened to the last group found to be fudging the models? I don't remember it that way.

SheetWise
05-11-2012, 09:37 PM
Shouldn't this discussion be over here.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/all-things-boats-and-boating/global-warming-humans-blame-13720-229.html

Yes ... but I feel a lot safer here ;)

WestVanHan
05-14-2012, 01:09 AM
What kind of heater does your boat have? And where will you buy the fuel for it?

More importantly, without a job or access to banks, how will you buy fuel for it?

Have you ever lived aboard a boat?

Ever wintered over on one?

Do you know how many thousand litres I carry,or how much I use per day....or how easy it is to get wood to feed my wood heater?

Yes and yes....have you?


Has anyone here actually done this stuff, or are you all just daydreaming?

I've spent 2 winters aboard in Maine. Wood stove was the only heat and i didn't buy the wood. Dinghying enough firewood to last a week takes nearly half a week. Then you need to keep the boat up and find drinking water. There isn't enough time in the week to cut holes in the ice to fish or go to open water each day to fish. Kind of sucks because I like the guy.



Odd,I don't feel the same.

And it's telling how you ignore the posts about easy food and fuel....and cut the ice to fish???? LOLOLOLOL!

You think the ocean freezes nearby,even with 5 to 15 knot tides??


I was speaking to the idea of surviving in BC Candada (heat?) on a large power boat. Or, any boat based survival, as compared to land based. There is no contest. Boats take a lot of work. Work you don't have time for if you are looking for water and food (plus heat up north).

Survival on a boat is a recipe for death. Not enough resources and too much work that has nothing to do with obtaining food and water.


Now you proclaim to know what it takes to maintain my boat? I didn't realize it was a full time job for 2 people,7 days aweek..my I have been neglecting her.


West van, if he goes through with the plan to survive on his big power boat, will die in less than a month.


Frankly you are just trolling and are insulting....not a wise idea for what you are planning to do...

Boston
05-14-2012, 02:01 AM
you guys should take a step back, and reconsider. Cat is an experienced guy in his realm of sailing, ran a tour boat for years and is now building another. West I don't know so well but I do know has one mother of a speed demon tied up in the PNW somewhere. Deal is Cats experience in thee tropics is night and day from yours in the temperate zone.

No sense butting heads over dumb differences that have way more to do with location and style than brains.

I vote nip this one in the but before it gets out of hand.

FAST FRED
05-14-2012, 06:15 AM
"none of the computer models work", ah thats just to funny. . None eh, yikes, and where did you dream that up at ?


When NASA gave up on the hoax , after launching the A train and analyzing the data .

AS this planet is 4 billion years old looking at 100 or even 500 years of :data" is useless.

The southern Ice Cores , some 20,000 years old do not fit the hoax theory , so are not counted.

"OF course the earth is the center of the universe, we can see the sky spinning about our planet , 100% consensus."

FF

mydauphin
05-14-2012, 11:22 AM
Who is to say doomsday is going to be global warming.
It could be:
Global freezing caused by sun being blocked by giant spaceship
Or a large asteroid can hit earth, just enough to block sunlight.
Or there could be a middle eastern war and fuel suddenly reaches $10 a gallon and food prices go through roof.
Or perhaps terrorist detonates a nuclear device in major city , an world total chaos ensues.
Or perhaps somethings as simple as a runaway bird flu kills a few million people in a week.
Or the stocks and money markets collapse after Geraldo discovers there is absolutely no gold in Fort Knox

Point is, the last thing I worry about is Global Warning in 50 or 100 years .

BATAAN
05-14-2012, 01:51 PM
Yeah, I agree climate change is only one of many bad things that will inevitably alter our present comfortable state of survival (Safeway is well-stocked).
For me, a bad nuke spent fuel pool accident seems especially creepy, but whatever happens, individual resources and supplies eventually run out and humans have to band together to survive.
Always have, always will.
We're banding now on this forum, trying to help each other, right?

rwatson
05-14-2012, 08:54 PM
Yeah, I agree climate change is only one of many bad things that will inevitably alter our present comfortable state of survival (Safeway is well-stocked).

I was told once that supermarkets have about 2-3 days of supplies in them at most

Always have, always will.
We're banding now on this forum, trying to help each other, right?

That's right - without a doubt !

mydauphin
05-14-2012, 09:03 PM
Be careful first thing that happens when shtf people become savages. You will need bullets to keep the zombies away.

SheetWise
05-14-2012, 09:16 PM
Ironically, in a doomsday scenario it's the third-world "poor" who are most likely to survive. The wealth in the West comes from a highly specialized division of labor facilitated by low transaction costs. Only in the West can a person whose only skill is running a cash register make $15 an hour, while many third world farmers live on $15 a month. The big difference is that the third-world farmer also knows how to plant a crop, harvest it, raise livestock, butcher it, fix a generator, and thatch a roof. Highly specialized talents don't go very far when the sh!t hits the fan and transaction costs go up.

Most of the people on this forum seem to be exceptions -- as a group, most appear to have highly diversified skills and interests. Heaven help most of those in the service economy.

Frosty
05-14-2012, 09:21 PM
Be careful first thing that happens when shtf people become savages. You will need bullets to keep the zombies away.


Predictable reply from an American. I suppose trade , dialogue or negotiation is out of the question.

rwatson
05-14-2012, 09:58 PM
Predictable reply from an American. I suppose trade , dialogue or negotiation is out of the question.

Typical reply from an ex-american ?

You should have read the blog about the guy in Croatia - it happened over there, far far away from the US !

pdwiley
05-14-2012, 09:59 PM
Predictable reply from an American. I suppose trade , dialogue or negotiation is out of the question.

Works for me as long as the other guy doesn't have a gun, isn't significantly bigger/stronger, doesn't have any other weapons and......

is willing to negotiate, trade or discuss without resorting to violence.

Lots of luck with that if history is any guide.

PDW

Frosty
05-14-2012, 10:47 PM
The scenario of ALL running round shooting would definitely 100% be the end. Syria.

Anything to discourage that would be beneficial.

Trade or negotiation would be difficult with a nervous individual or colony and would therefore be avoided and consequently there own demise.

The strong hoarding food and killing for it at the cost of the weak is inevitable with this human mindset and is the way of the world today which is likely to be the reason for this situation of doom in the first place .

This would leave a strong well armed colony driven by greed and even profit regardless of others.

Remind you of any bank system anywhere?

BATAAN
05-15-2012, 12:07 AM
Ironically, in a doomsday scenario it's the third-world "poor" who are most likely to survive. The wealth in the West comes from a highly specialized division of labor facilitated by low transaction costs. Only in the West can a person whose only skill is running a cash register make $15 an hour, while many third world farmers live on $15 a month. The big difference is that the third-world farmer also knows how to plant a crop, harvest it, raise livestock, butcher it, fix a generator, and thatch a roof. Highly specialized talents don't go very far when the sh!t hits the fan and transaction costs go up.

Most of the people on this forum seem to be exceptions -- as a group, most appear to have highly diversified skills and interests. Heaven help most of those in the service economy.

Absolutely agree. My Kentucky farm girl Grandmother made sure I learned to cook on a wood stove, ride a horse, head-shoot a squirrel, tend an oil lamp, poop in an outhouse, darn my socks and generally take care of myself, because she said there would be sure to be another depression and I would have to. Maybe she was right.

Boston
05-15-2012, 12:26 AM
Scarey I know,
but I think we just agreed on something

Ironically, in a doomsday scenario it's the third-world "poor" who are most likely to survive. The wealth in the West comes from a highly specialized division of labor facilitated by low transaction costs. Only in the West can a person whose only skill is running a cash register make $15 an hour, while many third world farmers live on $15 a month. The big difference is that the third-world farmer also knows how to plant a crop, harvest it, raise livestock, butcher it, fix a generator, and thatch a roof. Highly specialized talents don't go very far when the sh!t hits the fan and transaction costs go up.

Most of the people on this forum seem to be exceptions -- as a group, most appear to have highly diversified skills and interests. Heaven help most of those in the service economy.

Frosty
05-15-2012, 12:30 AM
Absolutely agree. My Kentucky farm girl Grandmother made sure I learned to cook on a wood stove, ride a horse, head-shoot a squirrel, tend an oil lamp, poop in an outhouse, darn my socks and generally take care of myself, because she said there would be sure to be another depression and I would have to. Maybe she was right.


Thats nothing--I would be quite happy with a fig leaf, a blow pie to catch rats and cockroaches and drink from abandoned sewer pipes I can also make a nice meal from frozen grass and moor heather.

Cooking on a wood stove would be shear luxury.

Boston
05-15-2012, 12:41 AM
The scenario of ALL running round shooting would definitely 100% be the end. Syria.

Anything to discourage that would be beneficial.

Trade or negotiation would be difficult with a nervous individual or colony and would therefore be avoided and consequently there own demise.

The strong hoarding food and killing for it at the cost of the weak is inevitable with this human mindset and is the way of the world today which is likely to be the reason for this situation of doom in the first place .

This would leave a strong well armed colony driven by greed and even profit regardless of others.

Remind you of any bank system anywhere?

Actually there'd be little running among the prepared. Much of the time would be spent seeing rather than being seen. As long as I've got the drop on someone or group, I own them. I'm a really good shot. My take is to lay low and try to find an outfit that can serve as a base. Friends I can count on. I'm diversified but my three best skills will be making fuel, assuming they/I need fuel, fixing whatever, and bringing in game. That last means I'm outside the enclave, doing my best to remain unseen while at the same time seeing as much as possible.

The danger is anarchy, I'm tempted to believe that most, even those that think there self sufficient, will gravitate towards a group setting in which some form of rule of law exists.

My bet is the problem people would be obvious, overconfident, poor woodsmen, poor shots at longer ranges, I don't think they'd be a problem for long, particularly when the tactics are to stick and move, and to be moving away from home, rather than towards it. ;-) The problem element isn't at home in my element. I'd have the advantage. Its not about survival really, I'm sure I'd survive most big disasters, but rebuilding while defending, if you ask me. Something tells me in a former life I was a dog solder, either that or I'm just living in the wrong century.

Someone was right about it may not be climate change thats the issue, in which case, I'll walk slowly and carefully into the night, very well armed, night vision, passive infra red, and well rested, I'd go nocturnal if I found the right group to partner up with. The doomsday scenario needs a night shift.

Frosty
05-15-2012, 12:59 AM
Emphasis should be on trade and negotiation not self reliance --you need to sleep.

Make your fuel yes--trade it --you will be very popular and valuable.

With exceptionable knowledge you wont need a gun you will be protected and live like a king.

Some thought other than Rambo type existence needs to be put towards kick starting the human race. Avoiding violence is of Paramount importance or we shall go backwards and all die.

Boston
05-15-2012, 01:24 AM
Nah, the nutty professor type always ends up a slave to the tyrant. More skills that that are necessary to survive well in a post apocalyptic world. I don't want to be stuck in camp tending the laundry or the fire. I can teach a few of the others to make the fuel and then just trouble shoot from there.

Rambo, no, but I think I'd do well out on the edges of my chosen group, I prefer the night anyway, Let the younger guys stay home with there wives, I'd rather be out playing woodsman. For me survival in any type of doomsday scenario would kinda be a game, similar to camping but you don't have the option of packing up and going home.

cheers
B

Frosty
05-15-2012, 02:14 AM
Might be interesting and entertaining for a few months. Then thoughts of staying at the camp with the women folk and security and clear of mosqiitos and bears.

Boston
05-15-2012, 02:47 AM
no way, I'd spend three or four days out, then a day or two in camp. I'm sure my luck will hold steady then as it does now, if not better, with the "woman folk" as yo call em. You can call em whatever you like but I'll call em pit woofies in the apocalypse, and be looking forward to training them to sit up and stay when they're told :-) Something tells me some of us would shine in the aftermath and some of us would fade away into Gwods fantasy land. Ahahhahaahhaahhaaha

Frosty
05-15-2012, 04:01 AM
Mighty big words there Running cloud, you had better return with food as hungry mouths are not fed for free. Id start making that deisel and a stil too if I were you.

Something to light the lamps and a drink of alcohol will make a rich man. I will trade better than hunting. I will live many moons and have many children.

Better to be needed than be needy.

FAST FRED
05-15-2012, 07:47 AM
Savages are savages because like animals they have no concept of tomorrow..

Roaming mobs would soon be out of ammo, and after eating the weak , will soon be out of food.

A boat that has just 3 months endurance would be most likely to survive.

Esp as much of the third world would hardly notice , a simple agrarian life would hardly be changed.

No Benetaon T shirts to trade for , only re runs on TV, otherwise all the same.

And with "Globalbaloney Warming", whom will care if the water is 1/8 inch higher in FL in 200 years?

FF

mydauphin
05-15-2012, 11:38 AM
Sounds like Waterworld again, and we all thought it was a bad movie.

BATAAN
05-15-2012, 12:37 PM
Waterworld sucked because of female lead. Bad Guy was perfect, Kid was good, Costner was OK, girl was mis-cast. 3 secrets to directing a film, casting casting casting.
But the concept of floating communities, desperately trying to maintain a sustainable ecosystem, was quite interesting.
BERTIE is easily capable of carrying 90 days of food and water for 6 people with rationing, so I guess that's my 'social armageddon' hole card until things stabilize. But for a bad nuke contamination scenario, where do you go? Fallout maps would be nice, but if the nuke problem comes from weapons use and not another stupid reactor accident, the communications infrastructure might not be there to tell us the contaminated areas to avoid.
One thing I don't see mentioned here and that is respiratory protection. Chernobyl downwinders showed that just keeping the dust out of your lungs made a great difference in exposure and respirators and gas masks were quickly sold out and unobtainable. Same would seem to apply to bacterial weapon use, keep it out of your lungs.
So maybe one of the most important survival 'gadgets' on your boat is that old paint respirator.
Human survival needs in the order of priority; air to breathe, body heat (shelter, clothing), water, food. The last two have always been what we squabble over and seem to want to monopolize and hoard as a species, so that would not change if times were very difficult.

mydauphin
05-15-2012, 01:21 PM
Actually not that hard. Create a water scrubber in your dorado boxes. Use sea water to clean air coming into boat radioactive particles will flush down. But you have to stay inside because of radiation anyway until a couple rains flush the air. Shield cabin with metal lining to cut out alpha and beta particles. Keep doors and windows closed. Problem becomes radioactive food and water afterward. Wish I could get geiger counter that works at a good price.

BATAAN
05-15-2012, 02:34 PM
I don't have Dorade boxes because they are piss-poor at passing air, which is what a ventilator is all about, so have 6" cowls that can be closed or covered. But only in the world of a drawing board is a boat air tight and able to keep radioactive airborne particles out and would a water scrubber clean the air in a Dorade box. And a metal lining will help with weak radiation but it does not keep particles out. Just add a metal lining sounds so easy. Make a floating air tight shelter out of lead and we'll be fine. Radioactive contamination is a problem because you can't get away from it. Much is heavy particles which drop out of the air in a couple of weeks, but some is lighter and stays breathable for months. Humans are so incredibly arrogant and stupid to think we can economically make nuke plants actually work without thinking through long term problems, like spent fuel storage, or how to deal with another Fukushima or Chernobyl. And our A-weapons are coming back to bite our butts if any of our sworn stateless enemies get hold of one. Governments seem pretty good at keeping theirs from detonating so far, but with so many crazies drooling over the power of leveling an 'enemy' city, and so many weapons in other countries, it seems hard to avoid forever.

DStaal
05-15-2012, 03:31 PM
Which was why I recommended heading south in that case: The circumpolar currents (both air and water) would offer some protection once you got to the other side of them. Then you can wait a few months for most of the fallout to settle.

Of course, that means you have to find a way to survive in Antarctica for those few months, and even afterwards the contamination will have spread over a large area. Most of the food sources will probably be contaminated, and will in fact tend to concentrate it further. But there's no real way around that; a Geiger counter will help you pick less-contaminated food batches, and depending on what happened you may just be able to stay away from contaminated areas, but that's all relative, and dependent on exactly what happened.

mydauphin
05-15-2012, 09:12 PM
I don't have Dorade boxes because they are piss-poor at passing air, which is what a ventilator is all about, so have 6" cowls that can be closed or covered. But only in the world of a drawing board is a boat air tight and able to keep radioactive airborne particles out and would a water scrubber clean the air in a Dorade box. And a metal lining will help with weak radiation but it does not keep particles out. Just add a metal lining sounds so easy. Make a floating air tight shelter out of lead and we'll be fine. Radioactive contamination is a problem because you can't get away from it. Much is heavy particles which drop out of the air in a couple of weeks, but some is lighter and stays breathable for months. Humans are so incredibly arrogant and stupid to think we can economically make nuke plants actually work without thinking through long term problems, like spent fuel storage, or how to deal with another Fukushima or Chernobyl. And our A-weapons are coming back to bite our butts if any of our sworn stateless enemies get hold of one. Governments seem pretty good at keeping theirs from detonating so far, but with so many crazies drooling over the power of leveling an 'enemy' city, and so many weapons in other countries, it seems hard to avoid forever.

So what your going to do give up.

Frosty
05-15-2012, 09:34 PM
Water world was for kids or some one that had never seen a boat, I laughed till my head actually fell off completely when I saw a 250,000 ton tanker with big holes in the side about 2 feet off the water line to put oars through.

whitepointer23
05-15-2012, 10:47 PM
how did you put your head back on.

Frosty
05-16-2012, 12:12 AM
I didnt --you wont believe this but I grew another.

A Pakistani walks into the Doctors with a parrot on his head. The doctor looks at the parrot and says "how long have you had that?"

The Parrot said " well it started as a black head on my foot"

Boston
05-16-2012, 02:36 AM
Waterworld sucked because of female lead. Bad Guy was perfect, Kid was good, Costner was OK, girl was mis-cast. 3 secrets to directing a film, casting casting casting.
But the concept of floating communities, desperately trying to maintain a sustainable ecosystem, was quite interesting.
BERTIE is easily capable of carrying 90 days of food and water for 6 people with rationing, so I guess that's my 'social armageddon' hole card until things stabilize. But for a bad nuke contamination scenario, where do you go? Fallout maps would be nice, but if the nuke problem comes from weapons use and not another stupid reactor accident, the communications infrastructure might not be there to tell us the contaminated areas to avoid.
One thing I don't see mentioned here and that is respiratory protection. Chernobyl downwinders showed that just keeping the dust out of your lungs made a great difference in exposure and respirators and gas masks were quickly sold out and unobtainable. Same would seem to apply to bacterial weapon use, keep it out of your lungs.
So maybe one of the most important survival 'gadgets' on your boat is that old paint respirator.
Human survival needs in the order of priority; air to breathe, body heat (shelter, clothing), water, food. The last two have always been what we squabble over and seem to want to monopolize and hoard as a species, so that would not change if times were very difficult.

Costner was terrible in that movie. Not sue why some actors do so well in some situations and so poorly in others but damn, he sucked in that flick. Interesting you mention the leading lady. I completely agree she was miscast. Although my take on casting is hardly as experienced as your own. I'm just a viewer, never did have much to do with movies. Although I do know several film producers, we don't discuss work much.

I'd have thought someone would have a consultant team working on any movie throughout its production to help prevent multi million dollar flops like that was. Anyway good call on the casting.

FAST FRED
05-16-2012, 05:59 AM
"Governments seem pretty good at keeping theirs from detonating so far, but with so many crazies drooling over the power of leveling an 'enemy' city, and so many weapons in other countries, it seems hard to avoid forever".

Much more likely is N Korea or Iran popping a nuke 100-150 miles up.

Line of sight , would destroy all the electronics in view.

No comm , no electric think 1850 again , tho in 1850 it was the norm , not a surprise.

As sextant , calibrated time piece and set of tables might be nice on board.

FF

CatBuilder
05-16-2012, 06:07 AM
"Governments seem pretty good at keeping theirs from detonating so far, but with so many crazies drooling over the power of leveling an 'enemy' city, and so many weapons in other countries, it seems hard to avoid forever".

Much more likely is N Korea or Iran popping a nuke 100-150 miles up.

Line of sight , would destroy all the electronics in view.

No comm , no electric think 1850 again , tho in 1850 it was the norm , not a surprise.

As sextant , calibrated time piece and set of tables might be nice on board.

FF

Bummer about not being able to cook when the boat's propane solenoid fries, about not being able to motor when the control circuits fry and not having any more food when the refrigerator controls fry too.

You'd need a lot more than nav gear.

Floating coffin in that scenario.

Frosty
05-16-2012, 06:39 AM
Thats why you dont want common rail injection on a boat, Will engine manufacturers wise up and take note.

Ille over haul an olde one before I buy a computerized black box engine

pdwiley
05-16-2012, 07:41 AM
Bummer about not being able to cook when the boat's propane solenoid fries, about not being able to motor when the control circuits fry and not having any more food when the refrigerator controls fry too.

You'd need a lot more than nav gear.

Floating coffin in that scenario.

If I couldn't bypass a lousy solenoid I'd just jump over the side & drown myself, get it over with.

My engine is mechanical fuel injection and has hand start as well as electric, so problem 2 is a non-problem.

As I don't plan on having more refrigeration than needed to keep the daily beer ration cold (say a slab) I think I'll struggle by if it dies. Warm beer isn't the end of the world, close maybe but still better than no beer. I'd still have wine & rum.

I think a fancy charter boat like yours would be more vulnerable but that's always the downside of complex systems. Nice to have as long as they keep working.

Probably you'd have no water pressure either.

PDW

CatBuilder
05-16-2012, 07:56 AM
If I couldn't bypass a lousy solenoid I'd just jump over the side & drown myself, get it over with.

My engine is mechanical fuel injection and has hand start as well as electric, so problem 2 is a non-problem.

As I don't plan on having more refrigeration than needed to keep the daily beer ration cold (say a slab) I think I'll struggle by if it dies. Warm beer isn't the end of the world, close maybe but still better than no beer. I'd still have wine & rum.

I think a fancy charter boat like yours would be more vulnerable but that's always the downside of complex systems. Nice to have as long as they keep working.

Probably you'd have no water pressure either.

PDW

Not many boats are set up without electric systems. More power to you (pun not intended) if you will not use electricity or refrigeration. You are building a survival boat, which is very different from 99% of boats out there.

Great boat for nuclear scenarios. Not so great for long term actual survival.

What are you going to do when she rusts through? Or will you be going to the zombie chandlery that accepts seashell necklaces for currency to get special steel boat paint systems and all those expensive zincs?

I'm not picking on you... All boats are bad long term survival setups. They require constant maintenance. The sea eats all boats slowly. Eventually, you replace the whole boat. Big waste of precious food and water acquiring energy.

Frosty
05-16-2012, 09:07 AM
Hey what do you know,-- I agree with catbuilder.

BATAAN
05-16-2012, 09:36 AM
Fat old BERTIE's hand start SABB diesel will work without a battery, there is no solenoid on the propane but a ball valve instead, the sextant is stowed next to the mechanical distance log in a locker, there are kerosene backups for all lights and a big can of that fuel. The hull is a simple 19th century cargo boat built of wood. A tool chest on board holds things like a broad ax and adz, hand saws etc. Some of the ballast is spare spikes and bolts, caulking oakum and the like. I might starve or die of radiation poisoning, but the boat will be fine.
The scenario of Iran or NK detonating a nuke in orbit is unlikely. For an effective EMP weapon, the bomb must be specifically designed for such, necessitating much research including tests. Even the Israelis say the Iranians aren't actively developing a bomb at this time, though could if they wished to. NK is a truly crazy state, but their pattern is shake the neighbors, do some shelling or a torpedoing and kill a few South Koreans, then negotiate to get them to stop. They know quite well that using a nuke for this game would be game over for them, and are not suicidal, but dedicated to this course of action as they have shown for 60 years. Maybe the survival mode will creep up on us, everyone just getting by on less and less as food gets harder to produce and remaining fuel that is boiled out of oil shale become things that only the very rich people can afford to still get delivered to their gated towns. At the rate we are going, it won't be long.

pdwiley
05-16-2012, 07:04 PM
Not many boats are set up without electric systems. More power to you (pun not intended) if you will not use electricity or refrigeration. You are building a survival boat, which is very different from 99% of boats out there.

Great boat for nuclear scenarios. Not so great for long term actual survival.

What are you going to do when she rusts through? Or will you be going to the zombie chandlery that accepts seashell necklaces for currency to get special steel boat paint systems and all those expensive zincs?

I'm not picking on you... All boats are bad long term survival setups. They require constant maintenance. The sea eats all boats slowly. Eventually, you replace the whole boat. Big waste of precious food and water acquiring energy.

I'll have an electrical system. They're fine with EMP, it's electronics that aren't real good. Of course if the alternator gets fried, no electrics - maybe. I do have a couple of generators on the shelf, nowhere near as efficient as an alternator but not vulnerable either.

I'd better keep my kerosene lamps in good repair - time to order spares for the Coleman and Tilley pressure lamps. I suspect LED lighting wouldn't survive EMP either.

Incidentally I also have a couple of LPG refrigerators and at my other place in the country I have an old kerosene refrigerator. Neither have any electronics so in theory I could have some refrigeration long after the Danfoss type compressor ones had fried. I just think the absorbtion ones are too inefficient and too big a fire risk to fit to a boat.

This is what I plan to fit. It has enough space for my needs, nowhere near enough for a charter vessel. I'm trying to keep mine to the KISS philosophy.

http://www.waeco.com.au/products5.asp?id=165&subCatId2=72&subCatId=61&catId=57

Realistically, I'm not worried about EMP though. It drops off with distance. Who's going to bother popping a big nuke high in the Southern Hemisphere sky?

I agree with you that boats are not good survival devices and steel ones will be useless once the barrier paint wears away, no argument. That's why I said Bataan's type of boat would be better. Mine has its advantages as long as the technology exists to support it, his is capable of support/maintenance with 18C or 19C technology in his home waters. Take a timber boat into tropical waters and without a very good barrier coat or copper sheathing it's not going to last long either. If I had to seriously worry about mine I'd plan on hauling it out of the water when not in use rather than leaving it on a mooring (which assumes I wasn't venturing far from home base). With a 4' draft and a long shoal keel this is possible without major dramas.

I also agree that no boat is a good long term proposition compared to a land base. This is why I have a land base with orchard, garden, dams and workshop setup. My boat is a big toy, a luxury. I don't think a doomsday boat is more than a fantasy to idle away spare time frankly.

PDW

rwatson
05-16-2012, 07:21 PM
..... I don't think a doomsday boat is more than a fantasy to idle away spare time frankly.

PDW

Too true - its just a 'Captain Nemo' mind wank. We like to think we can win with a rifle and a bit of piano wire, or an exotic toy a la 'transformer'.

Hollywood has so much to answer for.

Milehog
05-17-2012, 02:04 AM
Too true - its just a 'Captain Nemo' mind wank. We like to think we can win with a rifle and a bit of piano wire, or an exotic toy a la 'transformer'.

Hollywood has so much to answer for.

Just one of the reasons I like foreign (non USA) films.

FAST FRED
05-17-2012, 06:57 AM
Just as there are propane fridges , there are also kerosene versions.

Like a Primus "kerosene" stove they will operate on diesel.

Mechanical driven "cold plate "would also work for storing fish and game.

A small Off Grid style freezer will operate from a couple of solar cells.

FF

BATAAN
05-17-2012, 03:26 PM
Too true - its just a 'Captain Nemo' mind wank. We like to think we can win with a rifle and a bit of piano wire, or an exotic toy a la 'transformer'.

Hollywood has so much to answer for.

So true. Producers know that people feel trapped by the problems of life, so, to exploit and profit from those widespread feelings of despair and lack of power, most Hollywood Formula(tm) movies show clever handsome/sexy people doing wildly improbable and blatantly impossible things without disturbing their makeup. The unofficial motto at the top SFX shop I worked in for a year and a half was 'we lie for a living', meaning we make the impossible possible and even normal with our flying saucers and exploding pirate ships that heroes always survive the blast wave resulting therefrom... without actually having their intestines extruded from their orifices, like real blast victims. But we do such a good job, people who have no real experience in what they see on screen, accept it as 'true' on a very deep emotional level that makes the movie work, but skews their reality a lot.
The problem, as has been pointed out above, is millions of weakly educated people with a vast lack of real skills that don't involve a keyboard or a fast food drive through, but plenty of fantasy ideas about the real world that have no bearing on reality, courtesy of the industry I am still part of. The last Indiana Jones movie was an example with him surviving a nuke blast by climbing in a refrigerator. I remember filming that shot as part of the model team on the scale 'suburban town' and the elaborate pyro, timed collapses, blast fans and other effects that had to be timed perfectly to give the illusion of a nuke blast on suburban streets and homes was very convincing on screen. But if you were actually there in the real world, you'd be extremely dead. Same for most other 'survival' stuff, all gizmos and mechanical solutions instead of attitude change, where a bark shelter you can keep above freezing is a palace, and a fresh squirrel you caught with fish hooks a meal for a king.
A common 20th century 'survival' tool observed by an archaeologist among shepherds in the Spanish mountains was a very fine net, with about a 2 1/2" or 3" mesh, and stretching maybe 2 feet by 8. This was hung loosely between low bushes early in the morning and ground foraging small birds were driven towards it. Their pattern of short flights close to the ground soon put half a dozen or so in the net, helpless. These were put, alive, in a pocket as the man herded sheep until noon, when their heads were pinched off, bodies flipped inside out to get the skin off, and entire bodies dropped in the soup on the campfire.
Interestingly, 5000 years ago, a guy in the mountains used the same thing.
http://www.iceman.it/en/node/284
Maybe some old herring gillnet is a good thing to have. Great trading stock for sure.
As others have pointed out here, the closer you live your usual life to a modest and close to nature level, the easier the transition to social collapse would be.
Hopefully not to this level.
http://www.iceman.it/en/oetzi-the-iceman
Personally, the more we educate those around us to what really counts on this survival boat we share called Earth, the less likely the various scenarios may become. We would hope.

rwatson
05-17-2012, 06:12 PM
So true. .....
Personally, the more we educate those around us to what really counts on this survival boat we share called Earth, the less likely the various scenarios may become. We would hope.

Great comments Mr B.

Sharing and co-operation is the key alright. The only glitch in the scheme is that those meadows and woods with the wildlife are now suburbs and roads - many of the 'easy natural living' areas are now 'developed'.

Even the simple folk along the coats of say Somalia, and the Pacific Islands cant get enough fish as the big trawlers come and take it all.

pdwiley
05-17-2012, 07:54 PM
Even the simple folk along the coats of say Somalia, and the Pacific Islands cant get enough fish as the big trawlers come and take it all.

OTOH you and I know where there's an awful lot of salmon....

I've been meaning to get a graball net. 5 years of working in fisheries research back in the early 80's permanently cured me of fishing with a line.

PDW

longcours62
05-18-2012, 08:53 AM
Laughable. So where do you get your new pre filters, membranes and high pressure pump?

Guess you guys are just dreaming. I actually spent 2 years attempting to be self sufficient on a boat. It cannot be done without land support.

Fishing? Also laughable. Mercury pollution has ruined that food source as a sole protein of your diet.

Superyacht? Where are you buying diesel? Do you think superyachts are unarmed? Come steal my boat and you and your friends will all die - and its not even a superyacht.

Guess this is a bunch of office folk dreaming. Try actually doing this stuff and you will see how good these boat based survival theories hold up.

already stay at sea for 1152 days (Reid Stowe) without all "laughable ' things you ask, and of course mercury in fish and we still eating it , tuna, and smaller.
For the watermaker , sometimes it rain and you could have a more simple process just for drink

longcours62
05-18-2012, 02:40 PM
Do you know how many thousand litres I carry,or how much I use per day....or how easy it is to get wood to feed my wood heater?

Yes and yes....have you?



Odd,I don't feel the same.

And it's telling how you ignore the posts about easy food and fuel....and cut the ice to fish???? LOLOLOLOL!

You think the ocean freezes nearby,even with 5 to 15 knot tides??



Now you proclaim to know what it takes to maintain my boat? I didn't realize it was a full time job for 2 people,7 days aweek..my I have been neglecting her.



Frankly you are just trolling and are insulting....not a wise idea for what you are planning to do...

we can answer 45 mn each day (depending if the saw is in good shape and if the wood have not too much humudity):(
We stay few weeks betwen - 15° and -20°.
From the deck it is quiet easy to broke the ice around the boat , not for don't get pressed but for the temperature off the alloy at waterline it is better when just in contact with water (aroud 0°) than when the contact is with 25 cm ice at -20°.(around the boat it means 11m2 and this surface X by the gap betwen water temp. and ice temp. it make a big difference inside)
With my poor english it is not very clear :confused:

BATAAN
05-18-2012, 03:51 PM
In Scandanavia, I believe the tradition with wooden vessels is to stuff birch branches all around the boat as the water freezes, cramming as much foliage as you can into the interface between the ice and the hull until all is frozen solid.
This greatly cushions the ice pressure, lessens any abrasion, and offers some insulation.

longcours62
05-19-2012, 07:23 AM
In Scandanavia, I believe the tradition with wooden vessels is to stuff birch branches all around the boat as the water freezes, cramming as much foliage as you can into the interface between the ice and the hull until all is frozen solid.
This greatly cushions the ice pressure, lessens any abrasion, and offers some insulation.

at this adress : www.haraldpaul.com

They pass one winter in Labrador

river runner
05-19-2012, 11:20 AM
This is the sort of thing that actually does have me a little worried. I'm not ready to recommend every one start building their doomsday boat, but I think discussing possible ways to protect yourself in not completely insane and a good mental exercise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/18/schaeffer-cox-alaska-militia-plot_n_1528539.html

Wavewacker
05-19-2012, 11:57 AM
This is the sort of thing that actually does have me a little worried. I'm not ready to recommend every one start building their doomsday boat, but I think discussing possible ways to protect yourself in not completely insane and a good mental exercise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/18/schaeffer-cox-alaska-militia-plot_n_1528539.html


Totally agree, it's the nuts out there, the home grown types that concern me as well. I'd say it could start with a spark and other groups could soon join in, thinking they can re-live some fictional movie about roving gangs.....like Waterworld.

I think there may be in some comfort on larger lakes and river systems, maybe the swamps were there would be fresh water, fish and game. I doubt most along the shores would be after you, don't know, but I'm not sitting out in the middle of the Atlantic either.

Missed you guys.....LOL :p

Boston
05-19-2012, 12:42 PM
gyroscopicly stabilized gun mount ?

FAST FRED
05-20-2012, 08:03 AM
gyroscopicly stabilized gun mount ?

Useless as most boats will fail with just a few hits.

And you have to expect the Gov or other Pirates to be well armed.

Better to not be found by the parasites , than fight them to the end.

FF

Boston
05-20-2012, 08:12 AM
best to plan for the worst and hope for the best.

a 50 quad on a gyroscopically stabilized firing platform might just come in handy ;-)

http://www.bnamodelworld.com/images/griffon/GRL35A091_1.jpg

BATAAN
05-20-2012, 10:23 AM
Though they do go through the ammo in a hurry.

Ilan Voyager
05-20-2012, 10:58 AM
An extremely funny thread...I laughed so much. In case of an apocalypse (a very Evangelical and American fear: Atheists, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims and others are not very concerned by the thing).
Very curious this fear of end of world and of the other perceived as menacing aliens, (like in the Cold War with the atomic bomb and the Martians) plus the absolute need to be armed like a Rambo.
That reminds the end of the Roman Empire with the apparition of end-of-the world religions.

Boston
05-20-2012, 12:14 PM
Nah, our house is already armed to the teeth, and Rambo didn't have a quad 50. Although I bet he would have love to.

I wonder if I could mount one of those on the roof without anyone noticing ;-)

Glad your enjoying it though.

BATAAN
05-20-2012, 12:54 PM
The Smokers in Waterworld had the quad .50 and look where it got them.

Boston
05-20-2012, 01:16 PM
cool. but maybe no one told them that smoking was bad for there health ;-)

Ilan Voyager
05-20-2012, 02:45 PM
Quote from mydauphin.

"Lets worry about the real problems.
Half the world wants to rob us, kill us or otherwise destroy us, so they can have our prosperity. And then there are the people that feel guilty and want to give it to them. Yet, people like in Greece or France want everything for free but don't want to do the hard work."

You must have a hard life with your aching stomach. Xenophobia is simply stupid (angelism is as stupid also).

I doubt that one half of the world want to have your prosperity, nor kill, nor rob you. They have other interest in life: do not imagine the others at your image and way of thinking. What a lot of people hate is to be (or feel to be) victim of imperialism actions (whatever the origin) and objectively USA behaves as the main imperialist power (there are others). That's the true problem; half ideological and half economical. For example Chinese do not want to destroy you as they want to get back their hard earned money that they have lent to you. (USA is living at credit, how long?) and keep a market for their exportations.

Mexican drug lords are firm believers of free market as any capitalist. They believe in God and donate to the Church. They love money as much as any red blood American. They like a ferocious DEA and strong anti-drug policy as that keep the drugs prices high. Their only fear is legalization of drugs as the market would fall down immediately. They want a prosperous USA as healthy market for the cocaine and synthetic drugs they import by tons so well. They are more American-like than a lot of Americans. They are the quintessence of wild capitalism; satisfying a demand by any mean without moral problem. Finally they are highly successful businessmen

I have lived (including in the States on 1976) and traveled in several places of the world and truly very few people wish an American way of life. A lot think that it's not sustainable and an immense waste of resources. Not everybody is a consumerist.

About Frenchies, they do work really whatever you think; productivity is very good: I do know as I had a small shipyard in France... there is excellent engineering, and very good products. All with a good social protection; it's a national consensus and a political will like in Denmark, Norway, and other countries. Nobody stays helpless, nobody will die like a dog without care; it's a way of thinking. Always complaining is a national characteristic of the Frenchies, ready to fight and go to strike if needed. But the French way of life has its charms. French enjoy more social life with its rituals like sharing a good meal than money. Money doesn't rule the life. That's part of French culture. Do not mistake France with Greece. France is not in danger of financial collapsing, and most of its debt is internal: I do mean it's money lent to the French State by French people. And France has a greater social unity than the States. Nobody, absolutely nobody has interest in a financially failed state in France and France has enough internal wealth. Unhappily Greece has fallen in the trap of the easy money like Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Iceland. States has fallen but by luck in it's own currency also. So the States can manipulate its money and so its debts libelled in dollars. Do you remember the yo-yo movements of the dollar during the Vietnam war? Paying the debts in monkey money like in 1972? The others couldn't manipulate their money, the debts are or were in dollars and euros.

Have you traveled in Cuba? Even the poor Cuba (I have no sympathy for the Cuban political system, but it made nice things in health and education) has a very good health system. Just the political will to do it. An American friend of mine tested it while he had a life threatening cardiac problem at La Havana, he got excellent care at no cost. Nobody asked him his credit card, nor insurance. I wonder if the enormous cost of the wars had been invested in the States, instead of spending it in the militaro-industrial complex, the USA wouldn't have had the best social protection program of the world. Political and social will and wish are lacking. Egotism? lack of empathy? The thing I see is that the States prefer to spend in wars than protecting directly all its citizens with no discrimination. The very failed rescue of New Orleans after the hurricane is a good example.

Last word and I stop predating this thread; you can be perfectly happy without being rich nor accumulating money or goods. Open your mind, look outside. Be reassured: the doom of the USA is not foreseen in a immediate future and it will be gradual. After serial financial crisis, the country will slip from first power to second rate country like Spain did in the XVIIIth century, loosing his empire. The American empire will fall from internal causes like all the empires. You'll have just to learn Mandarin and work for the Chinese to survive, no need to live in the woods.

No hordes of so called barbarian Muslims will invade the country; mainly they just want to be left alone and that you leave their countries. Nobody likes to be invaded, physically or culturally.

rwatson
05-20-2012, 07:01 PM
... you can be perfectly happy without being rich nor accumulating money or goods. Open your mind, look outside. .....

That is very true ..



No hordes of so called barbarian Muslims will invade the country; mainly they just want to be left alone and that you leave their countries. Nobody likes to be invaded, physically or culturally.

... but I am not convinced of that. The invasion has already started.

BPL
05-20-2012, 07:10 PM
Does Mexico have good quality health care too?
Lots of land and beautiful coastline. Hot, but tolerable climate. Dirt cheap prices last time I was there except in the resort towns for foreigners.

Boston
05-20-2012, 08:26 PM
Any group that imigrates in mass and refused to embrace the new culture, becomes an invading force. look up Yugoslavia and get back to us. The results of ethnically based invasions are almost always violent.

longcours62
05-21-2012, 02:39 AM
Any group that imigrates in mass and refused to embrace the new culture, becomes an invading force. look up Yugoslavia and get back to us. The results of ethnically based invasions are almost always violent.


You are asking of the Kosovo example, where 70 years ago the habitant was mainly (by far !) Serbian and where years after years became a minority pusched outside their country.
Sinc this days far more Serbians was killed in Kosovo than Palestinians ,but nobody said nothing concerning the Kosovo (at less here in France/Europe) .
Where is the next step ...France ? Actualy in France 93% of the Muslims vote for Socialist and few month before the Tunisians who are living in France vote at 70% for the islamists.
It could be interresting to take a time, and thinking the near future:confused:

FAST FRED
05-21-2012, 07:05 AM
"and Rambo didn't have a quad 50."

He couldn't pick it up with out a fork lift , and that is not as MACHO as hand held.

FF

longcours62
05-30-2012, 02:12 PM
May be a good 'base' for a conception of a "Doomsday Boat" :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/active/6043184/David-Scott-Cowper-swept-away-by-ocean-life.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polar_Bound.JPG
http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/cruising/over-russia-and-around-world

A boat far stronger than any boat of this size, amazing structure and plating thickness, selfrigthing, autonomy for year in diesel and food if some sail plan for help or "just in case' it could be the good base for "doomsday boat" , not ?
A boat like this could survive at some 'big troubles'....

SheetWise
05-30-2012, 04:35 PM
A boat like this could survive at some 'big troubles'....

It's a gorgeous boat, a template for my dream boat ...

View Full Version : Doomsday boat.