crowther 10 hull refit: how much ?

[guzzis3]

Hi all,

There is a bare crowther 10 hull on yachthub.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-10/103316

I'm thinking of going to have a look, although I must be out of my mind...there are so many cheap boats about right now along the east coast of aus....

I have a hypothetical question for the learned amongst you. If I bought that, stuck it in a boatyard, bought second hand whenever I could and paid the people at the yard to do the work how much do you suppose it'd cost to drop back in the water with a basic cruising fitout ? Assuming the owner is telling the truth and it's structurally sound ?

Suitable second hand rigs come up fairly regularly. It'd need LOTS of toher things though, from ground tackle to hatches replacedor repaired, electrics, a yam 9.9 of course....possibly rudders and dagger boards.

I've been running numbersd in my head but to be honest I don't know what a lot of stuff costs nowdays...

Anyway, any thoughts (apart from don't do it, I already know that)...:)

[redreuben]

Double the first figure you come up with !

[Corley]

If I was getting someone else to fix it I would not touch it unless the repairer was willing to go onsite and check the boat with you and give you an accurate quote that they were willing to put in writing. Keep in mind that the value in a boat isn't really the shell but the fitout, parts, engines, rigging etc. To me the price looks like more than the boat is worth should be more like $5000.00. Looks like a hole into which you can tip truckloads of money and/or years of your life.

For what it's worth I'd have a chat to Stallion Marine and see what price they could do a Simpson Formula one catamaran for its a bit smaller 28ft and no bridgedeck but they may do a new one out of the molds they have bought to lockup for less than you think.

[guzzis3]

Thank you for the reply.

There is a F1 in airlie at the moment,

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/simpson-formula-1/96215

$43 asking

and a c10 opendeck in cairns.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-10-sports-cruiser/64570

asking $70.

My main concern about the F1 is the size of the berths. The boss has a chronic illness and spends a lot of time sleeping. The berth needs to be comfortable. Otherwise something like that would be nice. I don't suppose anyone knows how big the berths are in an F1 ? It'd only be me or the two of us sailing coastal...

There is also a gypsy for $29 here in brisbane

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=11465921

which looks like remarkable value, except I'm over plywood.

The thing is if I were to build a 30' cat it'd be pretty much that hull. Aft generous doubles, solid glass to waterline and foam above. And of course the boss would be happy which is all important :)

But as you say it's a money pit. You gotta wonder why someone would strip and boat and throw away or sell all the ancillaries....even if they are shagged they serve as patterns.

And just for fun there is this:

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Catalac-9-2431468/United-Kingdom

Sheesh, you never see prices like that in aus :) I know it's a catalac and it's old (not as old as me) but hey it's comfy! I don't think I've ever seen a separate shower room in a cat that size... :)

[sabahcat]

And just for fun there is this:

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Catalac-9-2431468/United-Kingdom



AARRGHH MY EYES, my eyes

[Milehog]

You gotta wonder why someone would strip and boat and throw away or sell all the ancillaries....even if they are shagged they serve as patterns.


Prolly 'cause the ancillaries were the only thing of value.
If they can't sell the hull I wonder what they would have to pay for disposal.

[Corley]

The C10 you listed in your last post looks like much better value I'd take a sailable boat on the water any day over the boat on the hard with everything missing with a hullshell in "good condition".

If you deduct 15k from the 70k asking price on the boat thats in sailable condition your left with 55k difference. I don't think that you could fit out the boat shell and put a new rig, engines, sails, fittings, electronics onto the shell boat to the same standard for anywhere near that even if you bought secondhand.

If you were a boatbuilder by trade and were running a yard with lots of bits lying around that would suit the boat I could see the shell making sense but for the man in the street cant see the logic in buying a shell (an old one at that).

[rberrey]

I hope you're wrong Corley, I plan on fitting out a 31' build on a lot less than 55k. My math comes out to around 30k + or -,inboard engine, portlights, mast ,sails , stove, ect. But I cant see more than 20K in new material for new hulls, no way I,d spend 15k on hulls that old , more less spend money on a total refit. Rick

[sabahcat]

but for the man in the street cant see the logic in buying a shell (an old one at that).
Having built something of similar size in the past I was looking at it thinking it was sound under all the crud it was a good head start and I would have jumped at it if it was available back in the day.

How much time and $$, inc. site rental, would it cost to get to that stage if building from scratch?

[rberrey]

My site rental will be $100.00 a mo. , there is an opened barn and I bought a 20'x48' tent $1100. Material for 31' , 5200 disp tri: foam , glass, epoxy,+ 15% extra material, tools,ect. to complete the hull shell 17k + or -. I have collected all material for the hull so I can complete the hull and have it in the water within the year. So in my case say 2.5k site and building, total of 19.5k with out the paint , another 5k paint and miss. rick.

[Corley]

It depends how much Guzzi wants to do himself but the original post was coming at it from the perspective of having the repairs completed by a proffesional. If paying for labour is part of the equation I dont think 55k will go too far. I guess it depends how desperate boat repairers are for work just now. The boats an empty shell there are quite a few man hours in fitting it out. It looks like the bare shell needs everything if Guzzi was content with only partially fitting out the boat then I think he would reduce his costs. You can spend a lot or a little depending on what level of finish your after or willing to accept.

I've been doing the numbers myself lately for my build. What I think blows the budget is mast, rigging and sails if your willing to buy a mast section and fit it out yourself and buy basic sails it makes it more affordable. David Lambourne has a good reputation for providing a basic section with parts to complete could be an option for keeping the price down.

btw when I went on a formula one I thought the berths were decently sized it felt quite roomy for a 28' boat the poptops on the hulls really enhance the feeling of space. So many things are personal on that front what I consider cosy my wife thinks is claustrophobic.

[sabahcat]

So in my case say 2.5k site and building, total of 19.5k with out the paint , another 5k paint and miss. rick.

Plus your labour
If you were working and getting paid how much extra would that be worth?

[rberrey]

I did,nt catch the part of paying someone else , 55k might be lite in that case. Your right about mast , sails, rigging, my mast est was $6500 two years ago. I,m buying items from ebay and craigslist and saveing 50% or better on new items.I,m going to try to come in around 15k to 17k on those items. I will have some extra ( new but old) Andersen # 10 standard winches and handles from a craigslist buy. Lets say labour at $18 hr, 600 man hrs.to that point $10,800 , depending if you figuar in a mod rate a lot more. But my kin folks work for free , or cheep beer, so maybe 40 cases . Rick

[sabahcat]

Lets say labour at $18 hr, 600 man hrs.to that point $10,800
$18 an hour want a job?
Flat out getting anyone here worthwhile for double that

[guzzis3]

Hi again,

Nice to see so many useful replies.

I had thought something along the lines of $30k to aquire and step a second hand mast, jib, main and the associated rigging, plus a VERY basic fitout inside, hull repairs and a motor.

Be aware some of you appear to not be in Australia and our labour charges are rather different to say the US for example.

I did warn you it was an old catalac :D

The boss is keen on flying, not really interested in sailing, and as I say long term sick. Like many women she prefers me in the same bed, and herself spends 16 plus hours a day in there, so comfy singles aren't going to cut it.

Camping afloat she will put up with but she needs somewhere comfy to sleep, and I want a head and some sort of shower. I'm really not interested in "super yachts" and fancy finishes.

Also I'd be doing it to to last a few years then refit properly. I wouldn't cut on safety but luxury and finish wouldn't matter.

A couple more of interest:

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-eureka/85273

I don't know what's involved in bringing it into Australia but of course a much nicer boat than the catalac :)

And of course there are always the optimists:

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=7313477

This "broker" can't even list the boat in the right section.

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=11860041

Maybe there is a reason it's $120 but I can't see it.

There was a 30' super beach cat at the gold coast about 6 months back, glass, similar to a GBE but bigger and flush bows as I recall, maybe even had the trailer. It went for $20k. I didn't look because the hulls are necessarily 4' maximum beam so I'd have had to build a pod. I imagine the F1 hulls are only 4' or thereabouts...


If you compare the hull to a scratch build it probably makes sense, transport notwithstanding, but I don't have the time to do a scratch build.

Again thank you for the thoughts.

[sabahcat]

I'd look at this before the x10 personally

http://yachthub.com/ad_img/3/0/1/2/5/7_2.jpg
http://www.multihulls.net.au/index.php?page=ed&de=30125

Unfortunate reality in Oz is you need to stump up double that to get a foot in the door for a reasonable cruising cat, like this one

http://yachthub.com/ad_img/1/0/2/7/7/4/1_2.jpg

http://www.multihulls.net.au/index.php?page=ed&de=102774

[cavalier mk2]

I think you should go for the catalac or something like it. It has what you want, the patient would love the bed, they have a good reputation and its affordable. It might be fun to see what shipping to Oz would run and they are narrow enough for those Euro canal tours.

[sabahcat]

It might be fun to see what shipping to Oz would run and they are narrow enough for those Euro canal tours.
You do realize euro canals and oz are at opposite ends of the world :p

[cavalier mk2]

Yes but the boat is in Britain. Might be fun to cruise those waters then ship it home. When you get a boat for less than 15,000A instead of 50-70,000 it opens up some cruising options.;)

[Silver Raven]

Hi all,

There is a bare crowther 10 hull on yachthub.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-10/103316

I'm thinking of going to have a look, although I must be out of my mind...there are so many cheap boats about right now along the east coast of aus....

I have a hypothetical question for the learned amongst you. If I bought that, stuck it in a boatyard, bought second hand whenever I could and paid the people at the yard to do the work how much do you suppose it'd cost to drop back in the water with a basic cruising fitout ? Assuming the owner is telling the truth and it's structurally sound ?

Suitable second hand rigs come up fairly regularly. It'd need LOTS of toher things though, from ground tackle to hatches replacedor repaired, electrics, a yam 9.9 of course....possibly rudders and dagger boards.

I've been running numbersd in my head but to be honest I don't know what a lot of stuff costs nowdays...

Anyway, any thoughts (apart from don't do it, I already know that)...:)


G'day bloke. 4 ?'s Do you want to go sailing? 1/ or build boats?, 2/ how quickly?, 3/ with how many 'creature comforts?, 4/ State of the art -sailing gear & sails? - - just to mention a few.


Suggest you phone or go to a 1/ sailmaker, 2/ yacht mast & rigging factory. There you will find the start of what it will cost you to go sailing - in the real oceans. Suspect the answers will range from 1/ sailmaker - $40k to $240K & then 2/ the rigger - $30K to $130K - all AUD. I'm a semi-retired yacht builder/repairer/cruiser/racer for over 40 years & you couldn't talk me into a project like that - if you paid all the bills. I personally - want to go sailing & spend time on the water NOT in a shed workin-me-ass-off for the next 3 to 5 years. I personally wish to sail a cat or tri that is a tad quick & obeys the KISS rules of sailing. I'm on 07 40 93 9900 - give me a quick call & I'll phone you back (sure hope your mobile is a Telstra one - then it's free for me to phone you back & we'll talk). Take much care - once you've committed to it - it's impossible to get out with your skin. Ciao, james

[sabahcat]

I'm on 07 40 93 9900

Wow, you must like getting spam and sales calls eh?
you should be careful what you put out there, all sorts of nutters around

Nice cockatoo by the way ;)

[guzzis3]

Seeing the asking prices at multihull yacht sales just makes that gypsy look irresistible. I mean for goodness sake you could buy 4 and sail them into the ground for the price of that pod cat.

Silver Raven:

Do you want to go sailing? Yes
or build boats? No time
how quickly? No rush
with how many 'creature comforts? not many
State of the art -sailing gear & sails? No absolutely not.

I am not sure what you mean by the real oceans. Moreton Bay is as scary as any water I've ever seen when it's tempers up.

I learned to sail on keel boats and was "turned" to cats not because of speed but because they make headway so EASILY, I just love that you can chuck up any old rag and get 6 knots. I am not a tremendous fan of electronics. I do have a lowrance ifinder go which is a wonderful little device. I acknowledge that compass sextant and paper charts are far from foolproof (and I'm the fool to prove it) and the whiz bang stuff is getting cheaper by the year.

I also mostly sail close to shore so landmark bearings are usually available. Queensland has a lot of thin water and I've never been fond of daggerboards for that reason.

Oh well, perhaps the "perfect" boat will appear. Certainly the market is much more reasonable lately.

[Silver Raven]

Wow, you must like getting spam and sales calls eh?
you should be careful what you put out there, all sorts of nutters around

Nice cockatoo by the way ;)

G'day 'saba' - Somehow I don't get many (not 4 a month) spam & sales calls Geeeze - shouldn't have said that either. Oooops, bugger!!!

At my 'very young age' ha ha - I can handle all the 'nutters' I've come across, at least so far. Have a line to the national controller of 'nutters' but thanks again for the reminder.

"Picky' by name, 40 years young (they live to 100 yrs), 2nd largest Northern Sulphur on record. Other than 'my green-eyed Lady' she's my best mate. 1.5 mtr long wing-span, stands almost 400mm - when eating my dinner & weighs 1.38 kgs - a big Northern usually weighs about 850 grams.

She can take care of herself as well & has several hundred acres to fly around. Makes a great 'guard-dog' as well. Ciao, james

Thanks again for the caution. jj

[waikikin]

Thank you for the reply.

There is a F1 in airlie at the moment,

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/simpson-formula-1/96215

$43 asking

and a c10 opendeck in cairns.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-10-sports-cruiser/64570

asking $70.

My main concern about the F1 is the size of the berths. The boss has a chronic illness and spends a lot of time sleeping. The berth needs to be comfortable. Otherwise something like that would be nice. I don't suppose anyone knows how big the berths are in an F1 ? It'd only be me or the two of us sailing coastal...

There is also a gypsy for $29 here in brisbane

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=11465921

which looks like remarkable value, except I'm over plywood.

The thing is if I were to build a 30' cat it'd be pretty much that hull. Aft generous doubles, solid glass to waterline and foam above. And of course the boss would be happy which is all important :)

But as you say it's a money pit. You gotta wonder why someone would strip and boat and throw away or sell all the ancillaries....even if they are shagged they serve as patterns.

And just for fun there is this:

http://au.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Catalac-9-2431468/United-Kingdom

Sheesh, you never see prices like that in aus :) I know it's a catalac and it's old (not as old as me) but hey it's comfy! I don't think I've ever seen a separate shower room in a cat that size... :)

Guzzi, this is a much better proposition that you've posted http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/crowther-10-sports-cruiser/64570 this model is wider in the hulls & a much better load carrying vessel, a sister ship to this was fitted with bridge deck cabin & some nice step extensions & came out a nice comfy boat

[waikikin]

The C10 you listed in your last post looks like much better value I'd take a sailable boat on the water any day over the boat on the hard with everything missing with a hullshell in "good condition".

If you deduct 15k from the 70k asking price on the boat thats in sailable condition your left with 55k difference. I don't think that you could fit out the boat shell and put a new rig, engines, sails, fittings, electronics onto the shell boat to the same standard for anywhere near that even if you bought secondhand.

If you were a boatbuilder by trade and were running a yard with lots of bits lying around that would suit the boat I could see the shell making sense but for the man in the street cant see the logic in buying a shell (an old one at that).

I've got all that but wouldn't buy it for that, I might like to sit it in the yard & charge rent for a few years to help pay my mortgage though;)

[Corley]

Your right, of course. I think this boat (hull shell) will be bought by some dreamer and sit around in a boatyard for a few years till they run out of money or enthusiasm.

[jamez]

Hi Guzzi, long time no see. Working on the assumption that the smallest boat you can get away with is usually the most economical long term proposition.... The F1 is nice but the easy access double in the Gypsy pod might suit your partner better? If that Gypsy is sound, for 29K its gotta be a deal. I'd buy it and go sailing rather than spending money and above all time refitting some old hulk. No point in building unless you get a buzz out of it.

[rberrey]

Sabahcat, I hate to say it but $18 is a bit high in our area right now. We,ve been paying our labour a lot less than that . You might need to import some workers, lots of good men needing jobs here. Rick

[guzzis3]

jamez,

how is the yellow boat coming along ? I'm afraid last year was one thing after another so lacked time for boating pursuits. I haven't even been sailing in a year, probably forgotten how. :)

I'm not keen on ply right now, not for a boat that sits out on a mooring getting rained on and our terrible sun. Otherwise as you say the gypsy would be irresistible.

waikikin:

The opendeck 10 is probably a nice thing, but the eureka has a good name aswell.

I don't think the catalacs were ever well thought of as a sailing boat ? anyone ?

There was a prout 31 in aus recently, they were trying for 90, needed work. They aren't a bad thing for type but that money....too much..

Anyway thank you all for your comments.

[cavalier mk2]

The Catalacs are more of a motor sailor to windward but decent offwind and well regarded for cruising. Chuck Kanter on a scale of 1-5 gave them as follows- motoring 4, docking 4, backing 4, sailing 2, windward 2, ease of tacking 2, tracking 3, visibility from helm 4, seakindly ride 3, convenient deck layout 4, interior layout 5, adequate storage 4. Not great sailing reviews but for those inclined to motor, a well thought out boat with a roomy layout.

[sabahcat]

but the eureka has a good name aswell.
Old boat old design and had issues, hence the extension done.

I don't think the catalacs were ever well thought of as a sailing boat ? anyone ?
Not compared to the alternatives, in Aust. NZ at least.

In countries where they had pretty poor choices they may have stacked up well------------ 40 years ago.

[guzzis3]

Old boat old design and had issues, hence the extension done.



Really ? ! I'd heard nothing but good things about the eureka.

I was just reading the pbo review of the catalac 9m. They seemed to think it went well to windward. You'd never think so looking at it...

Anyway....

Again thanks for the comments.

[sabahcat]

Really ? ! I'd heard nothing but good things about the eureka.
When were they written? (old comment, review)
By who? (Brokers, vested interests)
Compared to what? (cats are a lot better now than 20 years ago, what was considered good then is possibly not now)

I was just reading the pbo review of the catalac 9m. They seemed to think it went well to windward.
Apparently not what Chuck Kanter says
http://www.catamaransite.com/catalac_8m.html

The Catalacs are more of a motor sailor to windward but decent offwind and well regarded for cruising. Chuck Kanter on a scale of 1-5 gave them as follows- motoring 4, docking 4, backing 4, sailing 2, windward 2, ease of tacking 2, tracking 3, visibility from helm 4, seakindly ride 3, convenient deck layout 4, interior layout 5, adequate storage 4. Not great sailing reviews but for those inclined to motor, a well thought out boat with a roomy layout.

You'd never think so looking at it...
I would think your observations would be correct
Looks like a besser block...........

[cavalier mk2]

Most of the time when we are cruising we'll see other sailboats powering everywhere so they can get "there" on time. For them a boat that powers well first makes a lot of sense, plus it can sail if it needs to which the power cats aren't set up for. The uglies you'd have to learn to live with but it should be easy to find in the anchorage or at the dock.

[guzzis3]

re eureka: here for a start

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/crowther-eureka-info-needed-25332.html

you never really know who's posting but it's probably as good a source as any.

[Typhoon]

There is nothing at all wrong with a Eureka 32. I have spent a good bit of time on one, and that boat had also been through much severe weather.
I wonder if Sabahcat has actually ever set foot on one?

[waikikin]

re eureka: here for a start

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/crowther-eureka-info-needed-25332.html

you never really know who's posting but it's probably as good a source as any.

I haven't sailed on a Eureka but have had 2 sails on an Osprey (Same boat) once(during hull survey & performance analysis) inshore on Pittwater & another time from Port Hacking to Pittwater- seem to remember we made pretty good time in a strong South Easter but also note the owners next vessel was at the opposite end of the performance envelope. A nicely laid out vessel for a family. Also an Osprey or Eureka was featured in part of Alby Mangels "World Safari" Movie.

[sabahcat]

There is nothing at all wrong with a Eureka 32. I have spent a good bit of time on one, and that boat had also been through much severe weather.
I wonder if Sabahcat has actually ever set foot on one?
Sure have, looked to buy one myself at one stage
To slow , to narrow and to much boat on to little hull for my liking.

I daresay a good boat in their day, but the simple fact that they went the way of the dodo indicates that they were lacking.
If, they were so good, we'd all be on a list to get one.

[Rickm505]

Apparently not what Chuck Kanter says
http://www.catamaransite.com/catalac_8m.html

I would think your observations would be correct
Looks like a besser block...........

Now, I'm confused. I went to this page you referenced. Incredible website by the way .... a good find.

Catalac 8M information (http://www.catamaransite.com/catalac_8m.html)

And this is what the website said:

"Chuck Kanter calls them one of the catamaran brands that live on through the decades."

"...These boats will deliver 6 knots in 10-12 knots of wind, and maintain speed right up to 35 degrees apparent. Boats with outboard engines are slightly quicker than boats with twin diesel engines due to underwater drag of the diesel engine running gear. The boats also have high bridge deck clearance for their size. ...."

A 27' boat that sails to 35 deg apparent isn't bad at all (it's a function of apparent vs hull speed).

What exactly is out there that will better this boat, and sleep 5, and have twin diesels engines and will cross oceans, and costs less than $45K?

[cavalier mk2]

They are good boats, the review I posted was from Chuck Kanter's book "Cruising On More Than One Hull !" A great quick reference for many older multihulls. He actually rates the 8m better than the 9m on sailing qualities, sailing 3, windward ability 2, ease of tacking 4. He prefers the 9m layout. The Catalac website is great, apparently the skeg rudders helped plus not over sheeting. A daggerboard could be added without ruining the safety aspects of the hull design, Chuck mentioned putting the engine in gear at 1/4 throttle let it keep up with everyone to windward and he delivered one over 1000 miles. Horses for courses and all that.

[catsketcher]

I think that if you paid people to do the work on the C10 you would be looking at about $40 000 in labour. At least 1000 hours to get it anywhere near sailing and at $40 an hour the money will go.

The rig and deck gear of such a boat will be at least $40 000 with satefy gear too

cheers

Phil

[Corley]

It might be smaller than you were considering but I have a friend in the MYCV who is selling his Macro 25 catamaran it's a very well cared for boat and we have had it out in some pretty atrocious conditions and it has handled them well. The owner (Terry) is keen to sell as unfortunately his wife has terminal cancer and he has had to become a full time carer.

It is not full standing room in the bridgedeck but the settee converts into a very comfortable double bed and your wife would be able to see out the windows and converse with you easily. It also has a head in the starboard hull. A Macro 25 based in Hobart has cruised across Bass Strait and up the east coast to Queensland so they are a seaworthy little boat. It has a near new set of sails from Quantum. Some of the guys in the club who are retired have offered to deliver the boat up the coast if required.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/macro-25-performance-cruiser-catamaran/38251

[jamez]

jamez,

how is the yellow boat coming along ?

Just trying to remember where it was when you visited....main hull still upside down if I recall. Its (centre hull) 99% finished now, painted, antifouled and ready to screw stuff on too, sitting in the back yard. Floats are glassed just decks to finish. And I'll be starting the beams in a week or two. Then sort the rig out etc. Who knows maybe next Xmas??? :D



jamez,

I'm not keen on ply right now, not for a boat that sits out on a mooring getting rained on and our terrible sun.

I used to have doubts about ply, but the little Wharram cured me of that. Built of epoxy coated exterior grade ply 30+ years old and proved completely sound when I stripped all the paint off to glass the hulls. And it sat on a mooring for 5 years unused before I bought her. Properly built and epoxied from new is the secret. The Gypsy should be built that way and glassed on the outside as well...............

[guzzis3]

First sorry I haven't replied sooner. I've been sick this week.

I can relate to the gentleman's plight. I've been primary carer for the boss for 10 years now. Hopefully she isn't going to pass on anytime soon. I'll probably get into trouble mentioning this but the father in law was diagnosed with very advanced prostate cancer about 2002. They told him to sort out his estate because he'd be dead in a few months. He took apricot kernels and a special diet and is still running us ragged today. I'm not a believer in hippie medicine but his case speaks for itself.

Odd that the listing for the maco says boat name xanadu but the photo shows x rated painted down the flanks.

It's certainly a nice boat, but that gypsy is had to go past.

catsketcher: I think you about right on the labour, I think I could do a bit better on parts though, either way it's not practical.

sabahcat: I daresay a good boat in their day, but the simple fact that they went the way of the dodo indicates that they were lacking.
If, they were so good, we'd all be on a list to get one.

At the risk of starting a religious war, how then do you explain wharrams ?

Jamez: That's about right. I read you last email with great interest and was more than a little surprised when I saw the pics of the hull in yellow :) I've always been really keen on yellow boats, because anything that helps us be seem in amongst the tankers and container ships has to be good.

Back to convalescing..

[guzzis3]

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Prout-Quest-31-2319248/Netherlands-Antilles-%28NL%29

Unbelievable. That boat was listed a while back at about $27, now dropped to $20.

Much nicer thing than the catalac IMO. I would expect it to sail better, also really like the mast step at the rear of the cabin. The mast folds aswell which is nice.

You can tell I'm a cruiser can't you ? concerned about seperating the berths and the mast, walking at anchor...:)

Laminated sails just don't do it for me ...

[sabahcat]

sabahcat: I daresay a good boat in their day, but the simple fact that they went the way of the dodo indicates that they were lacking.
If, they were so good, we'd all be on a list to get one.

At the risk of starting a religious war, how then do you explain wharrams ?





Zealotry and Fanboyism

[guzzis3]

Zealotry and Fanboyism

:D

I don't mind wharrams, but I have a set of T30 plans and was quite taken aback when I got them how wasteful of time and materials it is. Compare the elegance of Woods or Crowther, quite different.

I also forgot to mention the other reason I'm off ply.

About 2 years back (goodness that long already) the boss and I had a holiday in New Zealand. Beautiful place, especially the malbrough sounds. Lovely people. Anyway much to our surprise she started getting sick at the accomodations. Not everywhere but most places. Chemicals.

Anyway, she has a similar problem with my Jarcat. Love the little boat, does what it does very well indeed, and I continue to be bewildered that subsequent mini bridgedeck designes have not incorporated Mr Turners innovations. Besides that, the thing is the boss can't sleep aboard because of the interior finish, or something.

I am prepared to believe I'm wrong, but my feeling is I can probably steam clean or sand glass back to a raw finish and use this special low toxic paint she found that does not make her sick, that assuming the interior of a glass boat makes her sick in the first place. I know polyester outgasses for many years, but she doesn't seem to routinely react around things made of glass, so I have hopes.

That's my story. Not much of a story but it's the only one I've got. :)

I hope none of you have caught this virus I've got. It's not very good.

[redreuben]

Guzzis3;

This may or may not be your salvation.

http://www.ecopoxysystems.com/index.html

[Rickm505]

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1978/Prout-Quest-31-2319248/Netherlands-Antilles-%28NL%29...
Much nicer thing than the catalac IMO. I would expect it to sail better, also really like the mast step at the rear of the cabin. The mast folds aswell which is nice.

Laminated sails just don't do it for me ...

I've sailed Prouts and do not care for the mast stepped on the rear bulkhead. It's not only the sail plan ( large genny and tiny mainsail). All sailing lines end up in a pile in the cockpit. One accidental gybe and having a foot caught in the jumble of ropes and over the side you go. It's happened on these boats. Soft decks can be an issue with them if they aren't maintained, and is probably why that Prout in the ad is dropping in price.

[Typhoon]

Amazing how much you know about a boat you've sailed what, once?
As I said, they're extremely well built and have a lot of interior room for a 32ft cat.
They have excellent sea manners and I've never heard of one having issues due to it being "too narrow".
As for speed, I can guarantee, if you load any equivalent sized cat to the same weight a Eureka can carry (which is considerable) you'd find similar speeds on offer. Cruising is all about carrying large amounts of stores and water, give me nice broad hulls for that.
They probably went the way of the dodo due to poor marketing and the fact the company manufacturing them was selling bare hull/deck moulds, saturating the dreamer market, combined with the fact that in the 70's, multihulls were still viewed as the redheaded stepchild of the cruising world.
Much could also be said of the many various iterations of the Crowther 10.

[waikikin]

Amazing how much you know about a boat you've sailed what, once?
As I said, they're extremely well built and have a lot of interior room for a 32ft cat.
They have excellent sea manners and I've never heard of one having issues due to it being "too narrow".
As for speed, I can guarantee, if you load any equivalent sized cat to the same weight a Eureka can carry (which is considerable) you'd find similar speeds on offer. Cruising is all about carrying large amounts of stores and water, give me nice broad hulls for that.
They probably went the way of the dodo due to poor marketing and the fact the company manufacturing them was selling bare hull/deck moulds, saturating the dreamer market, combined with the fact that in the 70's, multihulls were still viewed as the redheaded stepchild of the cruising world.
Much could also be said of the many various iterations of the Crowther 10.


Like 35 different "models" from Beach Marine...........here's one of them http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/beach-marine-pc9-sailing-catamaran-9mtx5-4mtx-06m-solar-powered-great-boat-/290663676949?pt=AU_Boats&hash=item43ace7bc15 for sale now, although similar a different hull to the C10, once available at 9M, 10M/32' & with or with out bridgedeck cabin, with headroom, bimini/targa & access options.

[sabahcat]

Amazing how much you know about a boat you've sailed what, once?


I had a seawind 24 of my own at that stage which I had cruised somewhat and wanted something larger.
I had also sailed on many fast cats owned by others.
And then I sailed on a eureka.

I knew that I did not want a slow boat.
What more did I need to know?

[guzzis3]

[/COLOR]
Like 35 different "models" from Beach Marine...........here's one of them http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/beach-marine-pc9-sailing-catamaran-9mtx5-4mtx-06m-solar-powered-great-boat-/290663676949?pt=AU_Boats&hash=item43ace7bc15 for sale now, although similar a different hull to the C10, once available at 9M, 10M/32' & with or with out bridgedeck cabin, with headroom, bimini/targa & access options.

Again thank you all for the responses and apologies for the sporadic followups. Still sick so away from computers for days at a time. Perhaps a good thing. :)

Another optimist. I actually thought that might be a 25' looking at the pics. Has a tiny cockpit and bridgedeck for a 9 meter boat. I suppose they have some justification for asking $135k but I can't see it. There are just much nicer looking boats for much less money right now.

Lots of those beach marine 80's cats for sale at the moment. Odd how things come in waves. As you say a multitude of variations. Pity there isn't a guide somewhere to explain the differences.

[sabahcat]

As I said, they're extremely well built
compared to what?
and by well built do you mean heavy?
have a lot of interior room for a 32ft cat.
Some would say to much ;)
I've never heard of one having issues due to it being "too narrow".
A narrow boat carries less sail.
Sail is HP
Less hp is less speed

and being narrower beam, they obviously have less space than others in their size with wider beam
As for speed, I can guarantee, if you load any equivalent sized cat to the same weight a Eureka can carry (which is considerable) you'd find similar speeds on offer.

As for speed I can guarantee you you that if you overload any boat it'll sail like a dog.
Better to have the same gear on longer hulls or come to the reality that a 32 fter does not a 40 fter make and cut back the crap accordingly.
Point being, don't overload

[guzzis3]

http://crowthercatamranforsale.synthasite.com/

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=2083984&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=36024&url=

Remarkable difference. Chewbacca is in panama and I'm not at all fussed on the spade rudders and what appears to be tiller steering, but $65k and looks close to immaculate, compared to the boat in mackay for $110k and rather "scruffy".

As I say I'm sure there is something I'm missing....:)

[Silver Raven]

http://crowthercatamranforsale.synthasite.com/

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=2083984&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=36024&url=

Remarkable difference. Chewbacca is in panama and I'm not at all fussed on the spade rudders and what appears to be tiller steering, but $65k and looks close to immaculate, compared to the boat in mackay for $110k and rather "scruffy".

As I say I'm sure there is something I'm missing....:)

G'day 'guzz' - must be an Ozie thing - then, hay - cause I'm missing it also. Sailed a few, knew Lockie & family - live just north of you - built yachts all my working life - I'm missing it also. Presentation wise - I'd be on a plain - over-there not heading down south. One is presented - extra well & the other is just a "scruffy" looking boat/presentation. There sure is a lot one could do with all the money difference - like cruise anywhere in the world including all the way back out here - if one wished to do that - & still have a tad left over - more than enough to cruise out of Darwin & do the 'Ambon' & SE Asia circuit. Get better soon & get sailing - cause that'll get you much better - much quicker. Ciao, & good luck, cobber & have a fab 2012. james, Cairns.

[guzzis3]

Thank you for your thoughts James.

Tell me, given your in cairns, are you familiar with the crowther 10 open deck that I mentioned previously ?

I think that boat asking $70k, the F1 in Airlie at $43 and the one in Bali asking $75 are probably worth a look. I'd consider the c10 in Mackay but it'd have to be about half what they are asking.

BTW I was born in Home Hill. I have quite a few family in Ayr :) FNQ was and is always much nicer than the south east.

[waikikin]

Again thank you all for the responses and apologies for the sporadic followups. Still sick so away from computers for days at a time. Perhaps a good thing. :)

Another optimist. I actually thought that might be a 25' looking at the pics. Has a tiny cockpit and bridgedeck for a 9 meter boat. I suppose they have some justification for asking $135k but I can't see it. There are just much nicer looking boats for much less money right now.

Lots of those beach marine 80's cats for sale at the moment. Odd how things come in waves. As you say a multitude of variations. Pity there isn't a guide somewhere to explain the differences.

I had a brochure somewhere for the range from about 90-92, I did some fit out work on some Beach Marine cats & owned one similar to the one for sale, actually a pretty roomy livable boat & spent a couple of years living aboard & some cruising, the one I had was the same moldings but with a stern extension taking it to 10m & minikeels, fitted some where in between a Seawind 850 & 10m but quicker. There was Macro 25s, Sonic 25, a Super Sonic, a 28 along the lines of the 25 but stretched, C10 & 11, PC 9m Targa 32/ PC 10, Sports Cruisers, Islander 35, Adventurer 40, Pacific Cruiser 44 & 47 & a few others with options as apparent on length, minikeel or dagger boards, center cockpit etc. I sold my cat for around 95K about 12 years ago.
The tooling was sold off & separated for some models quite a few years ago & some of the later molds lost to bush fire.

[sabahcat]

As I say I'm sure there is something I'm missing....:)
Australia is a ripoff?
Why do you think so many are buying boats OS?

[guzzis3]

sabahcat: I am comming to that conclusion. I don't know a lot about shipping/importing a boat, but if you take those C10 bridgedecks for example I wonder if it'd cost $35k to bring that one over from Panama...

It's painful to look at the overseas sites and see the prices.

waikikin: Thank you for that. Sounds like a complex lineup. Wish I could make head or tail of it. What for example is the difference between a macro 25 and a sonic 25 ? bridgedeck ?

The little 25 would be enough for me _IF_ it had a rational accomodation layout. What we really need is a proper double, a seperate heads preferably with shower, and a galley. There is fun to be had handling a smaller boat, I know they are bouncy, wet and perhaps most important of all limited in load carrying, but I quite like being a bit close to the action. I'm only up for coastal cruising not ocean crossing.

Anyway I'll just keep looking and see what comes up. I asked aout the F1 berths. They are 1 and 1.1 meters wide. Not enough for the two of us I'm afraid.

The C10 bare hull sold BTW. Be interesting to see how the new owner gets on.

[Silver Raven]

sabahcat: I am comming to that conclusion. I don't know a lot about shipping/importing a boat, but if you take those C10 bridgedecks for example I wonder if it'd cost $35k to bring that one over from Panama...

It's painful to look at the overseas sites and see the prices.

waikikin: Thank you for that. Sounds like a complex lineup. Wish I could make head or tail of it. What for example is the difference between a macro 25 and a sonic 25 ? bridgedeck ?

The little 25 would be enough for me _IF_ it had a rational accomodation layout. What we really need is a proper double, a seperate heads preferably with shower, and a galley. There is fun to be had handling a smaller boat, I know they are bouncy, wet and perhaps most important of all limited in load carrying, but I quite like being a bit close to the action. I'm only up for coastal cruising not ocean crossing.

Anyway I'll just keep looking and see what comes up. I asked aout the F1 berths. They are 1 and 1.1 meters wide. Not enough for the two of us I'm afraid.

The C10 bare hull sold BTW. Be interesting to see how the new owner gets on.

G'day 'Guzzi'. I didn't look at it when it was up here. Only get off the property when I think it's worth the effort. A cramped - no shade - no protection - not much room - exposed multi is NOT what I'm after.

"bring it over here from Panama" ?? Sail it or freight it?? You could sail it over here for far less than $35k & then go cruising for a year or 2 & still have money left over. IMHO

Maybe somewhat like you -? - I wish to do some limited cruising but wish to do it with enough room to be comfortable & I don't see an open-deck-ish type - non-load carrying - little protection multi as being of any long-term real value to the way I wish to cruise. Not what I'd spend my hard-earned money on as no real value to my wish to cruise north & do the Darwin to Ambon - cruise/race & then extended cruising up in SE Asia - which is about all I'd be able to afford.

I'm not ashamed to be in love with the tropics & warm weather & will continue to live & cruise in these fabulous areas - however I don't want to die of sun-stroke or cancer - any sooner than I need to - so know I need to stay 'some-what' out of the direct sun - as much as is possible. Therefore I know I need to choose the 'right' for me - multihull to do all that cruising life-style in & get maximum enjoyment out of every dollar spent.

What about "Wings" - bloody top boat - well priced (in spite of what the rest of the OZ market is doing) enough room to be comfortable & not die of sun-cancer, quick enough to get where you want to go - in time to enjoy being there, shallow enough draft to get up a few rivers & close enough to some lee-side beaches. About the right size to be sea-kindly, not to wet & have a good pair of long legs & do it in comfort & at ease. There's also a Crowhurst cat - up here for about the same money. If I could - get all my ducks-in-a-row I'd be making an offer on either or both, for sure. Ciao, james.

They are both good boats, well equiped, sail well & fairly priced regardless of others opinions - which as a semi-retired yacht builder/repairer I might not agree with. Ciao, james

[guzzis3]

I'm not familiar with those boats you mention. Are they advertised anywhere ?

If I were alone the criteria would be simpler, but the boss has about as much interest in sailing as I have in flying (her passion), so to get her aboard there has to be certain luxury.

My name is Damian by the way. I forget about these forum names sometimes.

I have no interest in SEA. East coast and maybe some day a circumnavigation of aus might be nice. North in winter and south in summer :)

Something like gypsy in glass would be ideal. By all accounts they sail well, I'm just not keen on ply anymore for reasons mentioned previously.

I wouldn't sail a boat home. Crossing oceans is too much for this little black duck. I know you can get a boat shipped, but there is customs duties and quarantine and such.

Mm. Anyway....

edit: what are these like ? seawind 31...

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/seawind-31-catamaran/86527

looks like it might have big berths...

[Silver Raven]

I'm not familiar with those boats you mention. Are they advertised anywhere ?

If I were alone the criteria would be simpler, but the boss has about as much interest in sailing as I have in flying (her passion), so to get her aboard there has to be certain luxury.

My name is Damian by the way. I forget about these forum names sometimes.

I have no interest in SEA. East coast and maybe some day a circumnavigation of aus might be nice. North in winter and south in summer :)

Something like gypsy in glass would be ideal. By all accounts they sail well, I'm just not keen on ply anymore for reasons mentioned previously.

I wouldn't sail a boat home. Crossing oceans is too much for this little black duck. I know you can get a boat shipped, but there is customs duties and quarantine and such.

Mm. Anyway....

edit: what are these like ? seawind 31...

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/seawind-31-catamaran/86527

looks like it might have big berths...

G'day Damian. Search engine - 40' Crowther Buccaneer tri for sale. "Wings" $98K AUD - was in Port Douglas (just 65 k north of Cairns) like I said - damn good boat. Lots going for it. Lots of sound cruising gear, etc etc. Proven cruising record.

Multihull Sales - also have 44'3" Broadhurst cat @ $99.9K AUD listed. I think it's still in Cairns (was 3 weeks ago)

Don't know your budget? - but you do say that some creature comforts are cardinal requirements for the 'cheese&kisses' so please explain what creature comforts of any type, shape, kind that you seem to think that a 'Seawind 31' has - cause I'll be buggered if I can think of any. About 10 questions there???

Sure it's cheap but maybe there's a good reason for that. Like - to short, no free-board, to wet, no room, not comfortable (cept if'n your size/height challenged), not any way to get out of - sun - rain - wind & you wouldn't take one around Australia if you were Loick Peyron or totally crazy. It's doable - 6,500 miles of 'formidable challenge - Bruce Arms just completed a circumnavigation of OZ however in a real proper catamaran & he's surely an excellent multihull sailor.

If your budget can't stretch to aprox $100K AUD - then just keep looking cause there's nothing much anywhere in the world for - - very much - - less that will get you comfortably & safely cruising that you would buy & sail - let alone around OZ - hey mate - it's a bloody big brick to sail around.

By the way Damian - that's not to say they're not out there - but they are extremely hard to find & you have to know exactly what your looking at & likely have the cash money in your pocket as well. Good hunting, Ciao, james

[guzzis3]

Thank you for the information on those boats.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sailing-trimaran/crowther-buccaneer-40-trimaran/23654

There is this aswell

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sailing-trimaran/horstman-tri-maran/106962

I like horstmans stuff but the mods to that boat are a bit unfortunate. They are normally either cold moulded or foam sandwich. You'd have to check how that one was built.

As I stated in a previous post I need one proper double berth a head and possibly a galley.

I'm 5'6" and the boss is a tad shorter. While I'm open to bigger boats I'd really prefer something a bit smaller. There are plenty of marinas on the east coast and as I said I'm no hero. If I were alone I could probably get by quite fine with an F24 or something.

I sailed across the northern end of Moreton bay many times on my caper cat. People have told me this was pretty adventurous but I picked my days and weather.

The sun can be dealth with with a good hat or a bimni. I learned to sail on keel boats but when I turned to cats the easy sailing has put me off ballasted yachts. Not that interested in speed.

The seawind is probabaly a bit dear at that price. No equipment, your buying basically a bare boat.

anyway...:)

[redreuben]

I'm quite taken with Horstmans, I find it really odd that he still has that market to himself it's a concept that could use a more modern update.
That one advertised is a bit tragic !
RR

[guzzis3]

Yeah I bought the study plans to the 25' swing wing years ago. He's an aircraft engineer I believe and he does some clever aerodynamics on his boats offering good headroom but limiting windage. The 27/9 is an absolute tardis.

I bet he'd cringe if he saw that one...still worse things have been done to pivers and wharrams...and...

I do prefer cats.

I appreciate the interest you've all shown in my search. Thank you all for your thoughts.

[guzzis3]

http://www.yachtandboat.com.au/classifieds/ad/13810/simpson-catamaran-cruising-yachts-tas

This is interesting. Part ply part strip. $35k yeah I know it's got a wharram rig, you can't have everything, where would you put it ? :)

[sabahcat]

Got a cheek calling it a simpson

[redreuben]

That "Simpson" looks like a very good buy, looks like the 9m Ground effect, has a very good reputation.
RR

[guzzis3]

Found another one

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-385578808.htm

if the link doesn't work go to trademe.co.nz and search on catamaran 36' $49k, remember those are nz$. Says it's glass. Bit of a battlecruiser...

There is also this:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-445712900.htm

again $50k NZ for a 23' pelin snowbird. Glass over ply I believe.

[neville2006]

Hi Damian, did you find yr perfect boat?
If you were interested in the Seawind 31 there's a better price now I see.
And if Silver Raven hasn't completely put you off you can contact me for a chat about the boat...it used to be mine.
Regards, Neville

[guzzis3]

Thank you for the reply. I was starting to think I was talking to myself :)

As far as I can see the seawind is still 49, and that's probably too much.

I am corresponding with the owners of the mitchell in NZ. As far as I can see from this great distance :D that boat just about ticks all my boxes, the issue is the cost of getting it over here. I have asked for shipping quotes, or it could be sailed with a signifigant refit.

36' is a lot bigger than I want and increases the cost and issues with berthing, but it does make for a more seaworthy boat, and piloting that thing I doubt anyone would feel detached from the action :)

Solid glass hulls, glass over ply pod, stainless beams, 50' mast, minimal fitout but has the basics of what I want. It was built off a 1/4 mold so fore and aft are symetrical as well and top and bottom, which is why it has the odd silouette. It is a contender for the strangest cat I've ever seen, but it should sail like a demon with 900 wide 11 meter hulls, says it draws 300. It'd probably even tack....

47500NZ is about 36k aus.

[neville2006]

I agree that boat does look interesting Damian...
but don't just dismiss the Seawind 31.
$49K is too expensive?!? Man, you can hardly buy a cruising 31' mono for that...and here you have 2 of them slung together!
Look, don't know what you actually know about them but they are a very safe, dry and relatively roomy boat!
There's massive flare in the hulls...about 2m wide at shoulder height and over 6' headroom. You have decent galley in one hull with a dinette seating 4-6 foward of that, then v-berth double up front.
In other hull you have huge nav area, enclosed head, another v-double.
Also great sea berths under each cockpit...about a king single size.
The cockpits are just like a mono...deep safe and dry. Sure if you are bashing into a short sea at over 8 knots you are gonna get some occasional spray across the downwind cockpit, but you simply take a few steps across the hard deck and you are in the upwind cockpit and dry with a great view! Some dodgers would solve that, and biminis for shade too.
Reefing, tacking, anchoring and mast work is easy with the flat hard decks.
Sure it would be great to have the hulls longer for their width, (esp since they were quite heavily built with solid glass below the waterline and balsa core above) so maybe not a speed demon. I saw 13kn occasionally...upwind and on a reach with main and No2 as there were no downwind or reaching spinnakers.
I only cruised in Bass Strait a few times, short handed or singlehanded and it had a very nice motion at sea. Don't worry about the seaworthiness...the first one they built sailed up the coast then across to NZ then up to Tahiti and back to Sydney thru the islands. Private Message me if you want a copy of some stories from Cruising Helmsman .
I would not be concerned about taking your family in one around Aus...
Wheyto Freedom could be a little bit of a project having been unused for a few years...priced accordingly..and open to offers I'm sure...nice fit-out below...my wife was happy! They were a hull-and-deck kit so all a bit different inside
There's a couple of others on Boatpoint at the moment...if any are near you go and have a look.
Regards, Neville

[guzzis3]

Thank you for the comments.

The issue from my perspective is this:

Regardless of the worth of a specific boat there are quite a few well priced and interesting boats available right now, so I'm looking at them from the perspective of how well they tick MY boxes and the value they represent in that context.

The primary considerations are: glass (strip would be ok), big proper double, head (not a porta potty - boss says so), galley, nice manners, in that order.

When I look at the seawind I see:

glass: tick
double: Probably ok but I bet they are not 4'6" X 6'
head: Looks like a PP in one of the pics
galley: tick
nice manners: Probably ok.

So now I look at the ad and it clearly indicates there is work to do. I don't know how much, might be shrouds, might be rip out half the hulls and rebuild because the balsa has rotted. And it's 2000 kms away, so can it be sailed home ?

Then I look at the mitchell, which is one of the weirdest cats I've ever seen. Asking $36kAU ($47NZ). Ok there are going to be signifigant expenses inspecting it and getting it home, but it ticks ALL my boxes and is ready to run. It is 11 meters which pushes up rego and berthing, but as far as I can tell it appears in good order. I've had several email exchanges with the owner and I'm getting some numbers together on bringing it across. If that looks promising I'm going over for a look.

Then there is the gypsy, which ticks most of my boxes, is local and in good order, and $29k. Yep it's 8 meters, and glass over ply, but they have a good reputation as a seaboat. Needs some fitout but it sails and is a few miles away.

Then there is the simpson f1 at airlie. 9 meters, glass, some fitout, some go fast bits, looks in very good order, asking $43. Big problem: 1.1 meter berths.

So while some of this looks good in isolation, in the market it really doesn't. It is an unfortunate fact of life that it's a buyers market right now (which is what's got me looking) and while each seller has a specific boat to move on as buyer I have my pick of them.

I'll be putting my jarcat on the market hopefully in the comming week. There is a J6 on yacht and boat for $25k. I guess you can ask anything you want for your boat but I wouldn't be holding my breath. I'll be happy if I can get $4500 for my little J5 (with fitted cockpit tent).

As the old cliche goes "it's worth what someone will pay". Lots of old ads on those sites.

[redreuben]

Re; the Mitchell, where is you're double birth ? The Saloon ? I'd have a long think about that if I were you !
People on board but someone wants to sleep ? Mmmmm.

[sabahcat]

So very easy to raise the boom a bit, pull a nice cabin across built from polycore or foam, get rid of the existing rudders and put a set of steps on with nice balanced spades getting it to look more like this
http://www.yachtandboat.com.au/classifieds/ad/13083/seawind-1000xl-play-on-cruising-yachts-nsw

Keep the weight out and she's a nice budget cruiser
It is a boat you could improve on for little cost when your ready for the next step up
This sort of mod has been done to numerous windspeeds over the years.

[guzzis3]

Sabahcat: Which boat are you referring to ?

You could certainly do that with the F1 but how much would building that bridgedeck cost ? The F1 starts $7k less than the seawind asking price and it looks in better order.

Redreuben: Yes the pod. There would only be the two of us onboard. The cockpit is only 4' long so a 4 seater. There are single setees in the hulls. Hulls are only 900 wide so not enough for facing seats. I know this is a potential problem, but you will see socialising and accomodating many people specifically missing from my list above. I view the mitchell as a sort of 8 - 9 meter boat with long hulls. Sounds odd but you get what I mean.

I am really specifically looking for a boat for 1 - 2 people for coastal cruising.

Anyway again thank you all for the thoughts. :D

[sabahcat]

Sabahcat: Which boat are you referring to ? Seawind 31

how much would building that bridgedeck cost ? a few grand if you can do the work yourself

[guzzis3]

I had another look at the simpson. I had asked previously if the length was correct and was assured it was, now it shows 8 meters/26'.

Apparently brokers charge 10%. Sigh.

[neville2006]

Sure Damian, I didn't mean to come across all defensive about the Seawind...I don't have any stake in it, or selling it...just a past owner who would like to see it get off the mooring and go to a good home.
Don't think there would be any structural issues, I only sold it about 4 1/2 yrs ago and, due to unfortunate set of medical and work issues the current owner has not used it since.
Probably would need new rigging, (3 shroud rotating rig)...some might not bother as it looked good when I had it, but I would feel more comfortable out there knowing the age of it... and motor service etc, new batts. Clean the bird do off and needs a good scrub underwater.
Has a proper marine head and shower (plumbed for hot water but no hot water system), the porta-potty is actually in the foward bedroom...which also could show that you could extend that berth easily...pressure water, newer anchor winch (remote) with big SARCA anchor,
Haven't been on board for about a year but it was dry inside then.
Yep if you wanted to extend the hulls down the track she would sail cleaner for sure...the last 2 built were extended...Shiralee had long extensions at construction and had 2 outboards...somewhere in Indonesia now I think.
Having said that, the existing transom swing rudder design is simple and balanced; they over-rotate foward to give foward balance to the rudders.

[guzzis3]

Please understand there was no hostility in my response. Unfortunately without the aid of body language and voice I have learned that I come across sometimes as abrupt in type. Rather I was attempting to clarify how I see the situation.

The boat would be nice, but I struggle to see value in the asking prices of a lot of this stuff. If you list off the 3 or 4 boats I see as representing good value right now boats like the seawind and that crowther open deck 10 look about double what I'd pay for them.

For example if you could have the woods gypsy for $25k or whatever he would take on his asking price, then I see the 31 as probably a $30k boat assuming there aren't too many bills. A re-rig, clean and tidy sounds simple if you say it fast but it can be thousands real quick. If that simpson in tassy could be had for $30, or closer to the 35 asking that's a lot of boat for that money. Ok there are issues, some are a problem some don't worry me (like the rig), but again I struggle to add 15-20k for foam, no pod or bridgedeck.

I have no doubt I'd be happy with the seawind and could make it work for me, but the $ aren't there right now. As long as that gypsy is sitting there unsold I am asking myself how much of a premium do I put on glass.

As I have said previously I thank you all for your comments and appreciate the input. It has been valuable for my contemplations. I won't get the perfect boat, and it helps considering what compromises I am really willing to make.

By the way is anyone else PO'd that if we register a boat nationally we still have to register it in your home state. No one else has to do that, trucks, aircraft....

[neville2006]

Yeah there seems to be a real hole in the market between an older second hand cat at $250k and the ones you are looking at. Why is nobody else looking at these boats? Why does everyone seem to think you need to spend big bucks to get a boat that will take a couple or small family coastal cruising?
The multihull fraternity seems to be getting browbeaten into believing we need big expensive full bridgedeck cats with big diesels, gen-sets, washing machines and airconditioning. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have one, but can't justify the spend.
What is it in particular about bridgedeck accom that is a must?
Sure, if you don't use that space it might not be the most efficient packaging but...am I wrong or are there still plenty of people out there cruising in MONOs?
Personally I liked the open bridgedeck with two cockpits, as long as you can get some shade...boom tent...biminis, whatever same as every other mono out there that didn't pay $250k
I'm probably the only one, but if someone was to start producing a longer version of the Seawind 31...say about 41-42' with the same other hull dimensions and composite beams I would be interested. There would be room for a head in each hull and bigger bunks and with the extra waterline she would fly. And one economic hull mould.
Nobody would build it because nobody wants one!

And I agree with you about the registration. In VIC boat reg is handled by VIC Roads and you can't transfer the boat registration to an interstate buyer unless they have a VIC (car) drivers licence. Also my NSW buyer had some issue because they had to SIGHT the boat in NSW to register it there, and needed a mooring to register it.

[guzzis3]

The two large hulls thing is something I have thought about. It is worth pointing to the comment on Richard Woods sight about thinking hard about a boat over 40':

The over 40ft range of designs comprise both open and bridge deck cabin boats. All these designs are more suited for offshore sailing. We do not recommend home builders to attempt a boat over 40 ft unless experienced and want a boat for charter or long term cruising. Most families will find that boats under 40 ft will comfortably meet their needs.

For coastal cruising, that is blue water but not self sufficient nor away from land for mare than a few days or a week, I have always thought 30' was perfectly adequate. Smallest boat that'll do it rather than the biggest you can afford and all that.

But the market is probably 4 kinds of buyers.

The executive market I imagine buy most of the big $ boats. These people are concerned with prestige at the marina not actually sailing.

The beginners, the sailing equivalent of the grey nomads, are easily lead by salespeople unfortunately and will get taken for all the money they can spend.

The third group are the partners, wives, girlfriends, who are not interested in sailing but participating for the sake of the spouse. They are all about the accommodations, that's where your bridgedeck market comes in. No exposure to salt or prying eyes crossing from one hull to the other, and look at that lovely dinette.

Finally there is me, and probably you. I have a partner, but she is quite reasonable, however I want her to be comfortable. You know when your knocked down with a really bad flu ? She's had that every day for 10 years. She doesn't complain much and she deserves a decent bed. Me ? All I care about is somewhere to sleep, a head of some sort and somewhere to fix some sort of meal. I don't mind getting wet and cold, bounced about, the trip time blowing out. All part of the fun. An F24 (for example) would do me fine although I do prefer cats..

The mitchell would do me perfectly but I think the money and aggravation of bringing it across is going to swamp me. I haven't run hard numbers yet but it's looking grim. Hopefully I'll get some numbers together this week. So far I know customs/quarantine will sting me $5kish. There is some fitout for an ocean crossing, and I have no idea how much it costs to get a professional inspection of a rig, most of the rest I can price. Australian rego is $1190 now. I assume the offer I make on it is less than he will want and that's fair enough.

In hindsight (wonderful thing that) I probably should have bought the racing cat that came up on the gold coast about 6 months ago. Sort of a grainger 305 style of thing (of foam 9m GBE if you like). Asking $20k and I think it even had a trailer. With a pod and a basic fitout it might have done me a treat. Suppose I'll never know.

I am surprised NSW had to see the boat and even more surprised they required a mooring. What if you've got a marina berth ? or store it on hardstand ? What about tinnies and trailer yachts ?

I am surprise no one has organised a petition to the state governments to fix this. One should not have to register the same vessel twice.

Anyway.

[guzzis3]

Couple more interesting things listed today:

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=12106950

a lot more boat than that crowther 10. I know it's shorter and narrower but full doubles, almost a bridgedeck. Looks a bit tidier too.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sailing-trimaran/grainger-mtb920/108579

Pity the pics aren't more informative, or a few notes to clue us up.

[redreuben]

That Parallax looks awfully good value !

[waikikin]

Have you had a good look over some of the vessels your posting, it would be good to get an impression on them. This would still be my pick of the bunch in regards to real space & potential http:// www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=12030310 . All the best from Jeff.

[guzzis3]

redreuben: That's what I thought, looks tidy too.

waikikin: I haven't had time. Spent 4 hours today listing stuff on ebay, including the J5 :)

Yeah that crowther is a nice boat, although a bit scruffy, my issue is the price. If you assume both sellers will drop the same amount then for $5k more you get IMO a much nicer boat (parrallax).

Also remember the mitchell, while a bit odd, could definitely be landed for less than $70k, a lot less. Might not be everyone's cup of tea but remember $47500NZ is about $36000AU. That's the ASKING price. Say it cost $20k to land that's $56k for a "small" 11 meter cat.

As I say the reason I'm looking NOW is there seem to be interesting and well priced boats coming on the market in numbers.

Thank you for the comments.

[redreuben]

Guzzis3,
Given your partners condition, the Mitchell is out of the question for mine.
Her bed/retreat on deck ? Nuh, ain't going to work mate ! Find a boat with berths in hulls, close to all the conveniences, like a warmer top, a drink, the head, another book etc. Otherwise it will be you going up, down, up, down etc !

[guzzis3]

I hear you, but she is pretty good. One of the reasons I've kept her is that while she exhibits female traits she is very much more reasonable than a lot of them. A good woman is a precious thing and a bad one, well your best off topping yourself.

It'd be nice to find something more convenient along the lines you suggest, but to get a big enough bed in a hull it's got to be a big hull (or have some side flare like the simpson and parallax), and as we discussed above when you add a bridgedeck you add a lot of $ expectation from the sellers. I've heard all the arguments about berths but I truly believe we need a 4'6" double minimum. We are not tall but I'm rather wide and apparently I do a good impression of a furnace when sleeping (and apparently a fog horn to boot). 3' "doubles" just aren't going to cut it.

The parallax is a really nice thing, might have to look into that, but meanwhile I want to sort out the mitchell. It's grown on me :)

[sabahcat]

I truly believe we need a 4'6" double minimum. We are not tall but I'm rather wide and apparently I do a good impression of a furnace when sleeping (and apparently a fog horn to boot). 3' "doubles" just aren't going to cut it.



Thats why I was thinking the seawind 31 and pulling a low bridgedeck cabin across.

I had a layout similar to a seawind 850 - Parallax 9 in the last boat.
I pulled a low cabin across and put a full queen sized bed on the bridgedeck panel
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/042_42.JPG
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/medium/041_41.JPG

[guzzis3]

How wide are the doubles in the seawind 31 ?

I don't NEED a bridgedeck, I was only looking at pods to get a big berth. If a good double and head are in one hull that would be fine. I can make the trips across to the galley and do the cooking :)

If the mitchell does not work out I'll take a look at the seawind, but it's still asking $50k and needing work, and 2500 kms away.

[sabahcat]

How wide are the doubles in the seawind 31 ?

No idea and the only reason I lean towards the seawind or http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=12030310 out of all you have shown is because the hulls "appear" fatter on the waterline and bigger in general.

This would probably allow for more scope with mod's further down the track as it could probably be pushed out to 33-35ft with low bridgedeck without much affect on sailing ability.

Bigger hulls should be able to carry a load better than skinny ones.

edit:
The mitchell (whatever that is) would fit that category as well

[guzzis3]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-385578808.htm

This is the mitchell. Sorry I'd taken to referring to it that way for convenience.

I had hoped neville2006 might know the width of the berths having owned the boat.

[sabahcat]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-385578808.htm

This is the mitchell. Sorry I'd taken to referring to it that way for convenience.

I had hoped neville2006 might know the width of the berths having owned the boat.

I know of the boat, but who or what is mitchell?

Its not a known name or design like a tenant, crowther, simpson, chamberlain etc or is it?

[guzzis3]

Obviously not as famous, at least not here. He is a boat designer in NZ. I believe he was in Auckland and now in the Northlands somewhere.

I guess it was just easier than "the 36' cat in NZ" or something. Mitchell is mentioned in the trademe listing.

[neville2006]

I had hoped neville2006 might know the width of the berths having owned the boat.

Sorry Damian, can't remember the width of those berths in the Seawind 31,they were cosy...but mostly because they were V-berths so tighter forward.
Possibly 4'6'' wide but more likely 4' . The stbd berth you wouldn't be able to extend as the bulkhead cut-outs encroach if you shuffle aft onto the dinette seat bases.
The port V-berth you could extend aft, as the bulkhead is further aft. You would lose the hanging locker in the bedroom though.
The berths under the cockpits are civilised as long as you are reasonably flexible as they are only about 1' above the cabin floor.They are huge singles, and very long as they extend aft to the transoms.
Personally I would be surprised if you weren't invited to sleep in the other hull completely if you are a loud snorer!
If you are...ahem...a little wider, you may find the galley a bit squeezy if you are passing thru whilst someone else is trying to cook!

[guzzis3]

Thank you for the reply.

Sorry Damian, can't remember the width of those berths in the Seawind 31,they were cosy...but mostly because they were V-berths so tighter forward.
Possibly 4'6'' wide but more likely 4' .

I'll ask the seller how wide they are.

The stbd berth you wouldn't be able to extend as the bulkhead cut-outs encroach if you shuffle aft onto the dinette seat bases.
The port V-berth you could extend aft, as the bulkhead is further aft. You would lose the hanging locker in the bedroom though.

We would want to sleep on the side with the head. The hanging locker is of no consequence. We could always lay coats and so forth on the other berth.

Personally I would be surprised if you weren't invited to sleep in the other hull completely if you are a loud snorer!

She wears "protection" :)

If you are...ahem...a little wider, you may find the galley a bit squeezy if you are passing thru whilst someone else is trying to cook!

I see that as an opportunity :)

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/peterson-40/90501

I know it's a lead mine but it puts things into perspective. That's a lot of boat for $40k.

Survived valentines day. Took the boss out for a 3 course meal which went really well. Happy all round. :) (no matter the $, I still have all my limbs...)

[guzzis3]

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=10702481

I normally automatically tune out GBE's but this one is probably worth a look.

[guzzis3]

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=11465921

The gypsy has dropped to $19500. Unbelievable. Practically giving it away...

[neville2006]

so you buyin it?

[guzzis3]

I am agonising about having a look. REALLY don't want a ply boat.

But if it's sound it makes everything else look REALLY expensive. I couldn't believe it didn't sell at $29k, it can't last at 19. Surely ?

The J5 hasn't sold at $4500. I have more buyers comming to have a look but no money yet.

It really is a buyers market. If a seller is serious the price has to be really low to meet the market.

I made an enquiry about the seawind 31. I'm not paying $50 though...

[nimblemotors]

...
I used to have doubts about ply, but the little Wharram cured me of that. Built of epoxy coated exterior grade ply 30+ years old and proved completely sound when I stripped all the paint off to glass the hulls. And it sat on a mooring for 5 years unused before I bought her. Properly built and epoxied from new is the secret. The Gypsy should be built that way and glassed on the outside as well...............

I must agree that the wharram-style cat I just purchased at 30 years old made with epoxy coated exterior ply appears to have "like new" hulls.
the weight of them isn't ideal vs foam, but if done right they last.

I've found in my searching that Florida has good deals on boats, and they have cats there,
here is todays find, Prout 31 at $35k <url>http://keys.craigslist.org/bod/2876339364.html</url>,
looks like a double bed is no problem in the bridgedeck. Someone will sail it to AU for you..

[Gary Baigent]

Obviously not as famous, at least not here. He is a boat designer in NZ. I believe he was in Auckland and now in the Northlands somewhere.

I guess it was just easier than "the 36' cat in NZ" or something. Mitchell is mentioned in the trademe listing.I knew John Mitchell; he was an AMSA stalwart and racer three decades ago, designed and built Isis 1 and 2, I believe I2 is a sistership to the Mitchell 36 here for sale. The same below/above deck hull shape was done first here by David Barker with his big Stratisphere, Sundreamer catamarans, using a quarter mould; also same bow and stern of course, and John Mitchell used the same process for his Isis designs.
He produced a quite extreme micro multihull design (seen here) for a show we put on at the Richmond Yacht club.

[waikikin]

I knew John Mitchell; he was an AMSA stalwart and racer three decades ago, designed and built Isis 1 and 2, I believe I2 is a sistership to the Mitchell 36 here for sale. The same below/above deck hull shape was done first here by David Barker with his big Stratisphere, Sundreamer catamarans, using a quarter mould; also same bow and stern of course, and John Mitchell used the same process for his Isis designs.
He produced a quite extreme micro multihull design (seen here) for a show we put on at the Richmond Yacht club.

Great styling!

[guzzis3]

When you say you knew him does that mean he is no longer with us ?

As for the prout they come up for that sort of money regularly. Unfortunately the costs of fitting out a cat for blue water and getting it through Australian customs and quarantine are not trivial.

If I could find a cheap way to get it here I'd have the mitchell. Shipping was $20k and sailing it over insurance was difficult and fitout etc was adding up.

It was just a blessed nuiscance. Really like the boat.

Life.

I've been wondering about this. It'd have to be double diagonal I'd say

http://boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=11657591

nicol tri for $25k.

and this popped up the other day :D

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sailing-trimaran/hartly-sparkle/110557

I know, it's a hartley sparkle, but it claims it's glass. I've always liked the design and have build plans for it. Apparently the aren't as slow as you'd imagine...

[Silver Raven]

When you say you knew him does that mean he is no longer with us ?

As for the prout they come up for that sort of money regularly. Unfortunately the costs of fitting out a cat for blue water and getting it through Australian customs and quarantine are not trivial.

If I could find a cheap way to get it here I'd have the mitchell. Shipping was $20k and sailing it over insurance was difficult and fitout etc was adding up.

It was just a blessed nuiscance. Really like the boat.

Life.

I've been wondering about this. It'd have to be double diagonal I'd say

http://boatpoint.com.au/boats-for-sale/boatdetails.aspx?R=11657591

nicol tri for $25k.

and this popped up the other day :D

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sailing-trimaran/hartly-sparkle/110557

I know, it's a hartley sparkle, but it claims it's glass. I've always liked the design and have build plans for it. Apparently the aren't as slow as you'd imagine...

Gooday 'Guzz' - U serious about the 36' in NZ? I personally don't want that particular cat but I have done a lot of homework into cats & tris over in NZ. Am sure Gary will fill in some of the spaces & if you are for real - I can help with some current info on getting boats from there to here. PM me if your serious about that particular boat as I've got a few chaps in NZ that might care to help you a tad. Ciao, james

[guzzis3]

James,

I'd love that boat but lets say I paid $40kNZ, which is about 31AU:

Customs hit me for 5% on the price plus 10% on everything including shipping.

The only shipping companies that bothered to give me a price wanted $20k ish.

So if it's sailed over it needs a blue water fitout, national rego ($1190 I believe) and probably at least 2 sods to sail it over. The current owner and I looked at this as he's open to that trip. Very decent bloke as far as I can tell.

Anyway as I ran the numbers it just got dearer and dearer. Customs will take at least $5k off me, and that's assuming quarantine don't find anything unhappy. Again the gentleman there seemed very good, I suspect he's a sailor himself.

I just couldn't get the numbers to work. Unless you have some magic method of getting it over here cheap, as in under $5k, or there is some loophole in import duty etc that I don't know about I'm afraid it's out.

The thing that scared me most was the potential for disaster. There were many opportunities for it all to escalate out of control money wise. Quarantine I mentioned, but insurance seemed pretty much impossible. There are of course the usual dangers of crossing an ocean. If it comes by ship there are the docks to deal with.

Love the cat, but as with everything else only at a price. I'm a worrier and apart from everything else I think the stress would take 10 years off my life :D

Thank you for your consideration.