Yet another efficient powerboat that do NOT sell ...

[fcfc]

See (in french)
http://long-cours.62.over-blog.com/article-passagemaker-cherchez-l-erreur-77177400.html

6l/h (1.6 GPH) at 7.2 knots economical cruise on single engine.

Exerpt "Néanmoins, il apparait clairement que ce concept était une erreur commerciale car, même avec son prix très attractif (les petits frères auraient été construits à Haïphong), aucun intérêt n’a été suscité parmi les plaisanciers...

Conclusion : Echec total, surtout financier, et pourtant parmi les options envisagées pour créer un « pasagemaker » économique nous avions choisi la solution la plus sage."


My own translation :
"Netherless, it clearly appears that the concept was a commercial error because, even with its very attractive price (sister boats would be built at Haïphong), no interest was raised among boaters...

Conclusion: Total failure, overall financial, albeit among available options for creating an economical passagemaker, we chose the wisest."

[daiquiri]

The design of that boat is absolutly obsolete. Don't know what group of buyers was their target, but (around) 8 kts cruise and 12 kts max speed is a speed range which falls in the middle of a market void - in a sense that not many persons want a boat like that. Add to this the fact that many potential buyers are frightened by stories about corrosion of aluminum vessels, and the market shrinks even more. It looks to me that they have started a project without a market research and without a well-defined target, in which case it was a loser enterprise right from the beginning.
Cheers!

[fcfc]

Project was started in the mid 90. Customer target was the intermediate between later Dashew FPB 83 on the luxury side, and Buelher Idlewild on the cheap side.

All 3 do not sell well, at least.

[Tad]

To be "sucessful" a product needs much more than just being designed and built. Price is currently a big issue, and advertizing presence is another huge issue. Anything advertized as a passagemaker is competing with Dashew and Nordhavn......can you guess what Nordhavn's yearly advertizing budget is.....it's a significant percentage of every boat sold, that's required to sell the next boat and develop the next model. It is almost impossible (unless massively financed) to compete with a heavily entrenched entity....How many startup car companies last?

While I like very much the design and aim of this boat, with no advertizing that I've seen and no english website, I'm not even sure what it's called, how big it is, what the price is, etc.....

The Greenline is a slow (7-15 knot in stock form) economical cruiser (very price sensitive) that has been tremendously successful......they have used the green hook to gain huge PR and sales.....

Aluminum is very well accepted in some parts of the world. Here in the PNW and France are just two of them. Currently in BC fiberglass production has disappeared while small welded aluminum boat production has grown massively.

[daiquiri]

Currently in BC fiberglass production has disappeared while small welded aluminum boat production has grown massively.
That is a very interesting info, Tad. Is it based on number-based facts or is it an opinion based on your experience with local boatyards? And what is the reason for this trend, in your opinion? In Italy the aluminum boats are still struggling to be more widely accepted. Having talked with some people in the metal constructions business, it appears that they are having a hard time in finding aluminum welders of quality required by boatbuilding works. That could be one of several reasons, I guess...

[Landlubber]

Interesting observation Tad, I am in Brisbane, and find the same here too....all the jobs are for alloy welders.....

[Tad]

daiq.....

While I don't have any numbers easily linked to, the transition is a fact. Twenty years ago the boating industry in BC supported at least 20 relatively small (<100 units per year) production builders. I have issues of the local boating magazine with advertizing to support this. That market was taken over totally by Bayliner and SeaRay....imported low price boats.....

So local builders moved into a different niche....the higher priced and higher quality aluminum market. This requires different skills (one could argue higher skilled workers) and a slightly different mindset, aluminum allows easy customization to meet customer demand. Currently there are at least a dozen small semi-production aluminum builders in this province, and their demand for workers is such that a couple of post secondary schools offer vocational courses in aluminum boatbuilding.

http://eaglecraft.bc.ca/

http://lifetimer.bc.ca/

http://www.wolfboats.com/

http://www.silverstreakboats.com/

http://www.liquidmetalmarine.com/

http://www.coastalcraft.com/

[Richard Woods]

Currently I am on Saturna Island, only 30 miles from Tad

When I first came here for the summer 6 years ago I was surprised by the number of aluminium boats. Fishing boats that would be steel or wood in Europe are aluminium here. Also surprising to me was the number of large boats powered by outboard engines.

Fuel is of course still very cheap here - cheaper still in the US, so no one really cares about fuel consumption. Hence fast outboard powered fishing boats

I understand aluminium sheet is also cheap here (although I haven't personally bought any). Presumably because electricity is cheap (hydro power helps) which is a big cost in making aluminium.

And there are several major grp boatbuilders in Washington state, so Canadians can drive across the border and back with their new boat in a day. Again the exchange rate helps. The Canadian dollar is 60% stronger than 6 years ago. Hurting all exporters in Canada of course, not just boatbuilders.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[longcours62]

Just some precisions :
«*absolutely obsolete*» it is always the problem when you are not a designer ,you trust the designer and if he makes obsolete lines you are not able to see that . ..
Maybe the lines look obsoletes because the hull lines was done in 1993 by Joubert/Nivelt (and in 17 years they are some changes : look for example at the bulb of the Nordhaven 46’in 1993 and the news bulbs on the last SNSM or US coast guards boats).Or also maybe when your target is the low consumption you must come back to the «*origins*» when engines were not so powerful in the 1920/30 era .And the majority of the designer who try this way always design boats with : low profile, small draft, narrow and «*light*» (for the length) for example : Idelwiss of Buehler,Less 83 of Guy Saillard(not exactly light ), Wind Horse and FPB 64’ of Dashew, Range Boat(and his brothers) of Nigel Irens .
Of course for «*new*» concepts you can built a boat like Ilan Voyager, during a moment we were thinking built a ‘trimaran’ like Ilan Voyager with little more volume for one boat of 20 m you get the volume of a standard 10 m motor boat…but with 7m beam !
If the concept was obsolete in 1993 , 16 years later Dashew design the FPB 64’ and sold 7 boats (at 2,6 million $)in less than 3 years quite good for old concept.
When I see that I can’t think the problem was the concept. But for the market research and defined target : you are right as we wrote on «*passagemakers cherchez l’erreur(s)*» the (real)«*passagemakers*» are a very small part of the motor boat market and people who really use their passagemaker as an explorer boat are a very small part of them !!!! I don’t know if I am clear ,? But finally just few people are interested by this type of boat.
And our first idea was to built a safe, strong, basic (no luxurious, easy to built) boat able to cruise «*everywhere*», and not necessary to fulfill a holiday cruise .
For this use aluminium is quite good (we save 10,5 t compared with the same steel hull same strength) and if ‘off road*’ boats like : Idelwess(NW passage circumnavigation),Aurora Magnetica(Groenlant, wintering in north Canada), Polard bound(Norths passages and circumnavigation), Antartica (Artic,Antartic few timesnow Tara), Fleur Australe(nw passage) choose aluminium it is not the hazard .
Now even Italian shipyards (familiars with steel) choose aluminium : Perini Navi (new generation), and the last drawing of Phillipe Briand Vitruvius .
If ‘obsolete’ is for the roofs and wheelhouse, compare the wheelhouse of the Nordhaven 62’ (or another trawler yacht) and the wheelhouse of Northsea trawlers built 70 years ago … Or the design of Nordic Tugs,Florida Bay Coaster (?!), Don Mclntyre50’,American tugs or the (no)evolution’ between the American Marine 1965 and 1994 …
The same type of drawing was sold with success by Océa (Ably wheeler).
@ Tad : you are right we don’t make a good advertising ! But some builder make good advertising (in France) for example for «*Valparaiso*» or «*Less 83*» and do not sold one boat .
But we stop try to sold sister ships of longcours62 , 8 years ago !
The price was at this moment below 400.000 E, far (maybe to far) below the market .
And maybe it was our first mistake, because some people think : why so ‘cheap’ , were is the problem ? For exemple actualy we will be able to built a sister ship of ‘Longcours62’ for around 25% of the sale price of one FPB64(less equipped such Naïad,less luxurious ) if we make an advertising like that we are sure all peoples thinks / were is the problem ?.
I can confirm I am not a good ‘commercial’ (in reality I am not ’commercial’ at all I am a sailor!!).
If we win the next ‘euromillion’ I promise our boat will look less 1920 era but something like «*cable&wireless*».
But now, we are just living on board, traveling and trying to enjoy our ‘mistake’…for the rest of our life (we hope for a longer time possible !!!)
Sorry for my English but I try my best (for old French guy It’s my maximum!).

[Tad]

Longcourse......thank you and welcome, nice to see you here......

Perhaps Daiq can clarify what he meant by "absolutely obsolete", can't tell if he was commenting on styling, arrangement, or naval architecture. The form is one answer to getting some volume down deep in a simple (Developed sheet material) shape. I think the Longcourse arrangement is smart. You avoided the mistake I (and Valparaiso) made in putting the owner's double in the bow (I did in the PL 46 and 56). Even though the reality is that these boats are coastal cruisers with few (or none) overnight passages made, the passagemaker market says put the owner's cabin midships or aft.....though Dashew gets away with a forward location.

I think Dashew's marketing effort goes back to 2003-04 when he started publicizing the design/build of Windhorse. She cost millions, and that effort lead to the sales of further boats......but it was not an inexpensive marketing campaign. Also required in the marketing effort is schmoozing magazine editors, appearing at boat shows, and generally playing celebrity, something I fail at.

I suspect that like you I expect buyers to see and understand the obvious good sense a particular vessel makes. Unfortunately the majority of today's buyers are after other things......

[daiquiri]

Just some precisions:
«*absolutely obsolete*» it is always the problem when you are not a designer ,you trust the designer and if he makes obsolete lines you are not able to see that...
Perhaps Daiq can clarify what he meant by "absolutely obsolete", can't tell if he was commenting on styling, arrangement, or naval architecture.
...
I suspect that like you I expect buyers to see and understand the obvious good sense a particular vessel makes. Unfortunately the majority of today's buyers are after other things......
If we win the next ‘euromillion’ I promise our boat will look less 1920 era but something like «*cable&wireless*».

The above citations contain all the clarifications to my observation about "obsolete" design. Unfortunately, there's this international problem with the english term "design". I have intended it in a sense of "design=styling" (as it is used in Italy, for example), as opposed to "design=engineering", which comprises hydrodynamics, structure, powering and other "technical" aspects of the project.
So, my comment is to be interpreted as "the styling of that boat is absolutely obsolete". Longcours, please don't misunderstand me, I have no intention to dismiss your work on that boat. Every person who has a courage and determination to start a new boatbuilding business these days deserves a maximum support and admiration. There will surely be a group of people, in the bigger population of boaters, who will find the appeal in these retro lines:
http://a7.idata.over-blog.com/300x225/4/56/46/39/Passagemaker/sil.jpg http://a10.idata.over-blog.com/300x225/4/56/46/39/Passagemaker/profil.jpg
But my opinion is - it will be a very restricted group, and your commercial target will shrink even more by the fact that very few of these admirers will eventually buy a boat. However the product styling in both boating and automotive industry have moved on since 60's and 70's. You can't pretend that the time has stopped 40 yrs ago and, at the same time, expect to have a commercial success (by the way, how do you measure it?). I'm not talking about the technical aspects (hydro etc.), just styling - which is (obviously) the most visible characteristics in the eyes of a potential buyer.
However, your words are telling how fond you are of your boat, which is more than legitimate (who wouldn't be?) and I hope that you and personally are enjoying it. If you have made it to suit your personal taste, then it is not a mistake. There's simply a good probability that your taste doesn't coincide with the taste of todays' market.
Cheers!

[longcours62]

For the 'look' it could be worst !
For example racked windows in the front of wellhouse it is more 'logic' and usefull : no rain on it, less spray an at night absolutly no 'reflexion' of the panels control light (this morning I have more problems with my english !!)
But for 'design' on the majority of the power boat you get the exact contrary just for get the nicest lines ...and poor visibility.
When we contact Naîad on their answer the 'title' was : "for patrol boat" !!
:eek:
And for us it was not a bad thingh, but for the sale ...
It is always the problem when your first target is the seakeeping(safe,strong,usefull) and not the market.
We discuss with some captain of nice power boats,(in the range of 80') the captains (not the owner it is some time difficult to an owner who paid millions to say the problems of his boat )
And the problems was : visibility in wheelhouse, no watertight (windows doors and some time worst!),seakeeping (one of them in Med Captain on nice sleek 90' ,said " I never try a crossing biger than the half of my range, because if for the last 50nm the weather became bad I cant heading I must turn back" at this moment the nice design can't help.
We can said the best way it's make a good mix betwen design and seakeeping it could be the best way ,I don't know if Buehler,Seaton, Neville,Krogen,Tad, sold lot of design but the advantage(and the problem !?) with old fashioned boats they look always retro now and 40 years ago like ...Grand banks !
I don't ask for our boat because we know our mains mistakes like we wrotte on our blog , we trying to make the list of our mistakes.The first one is : not keept the 'normal' look for a 'trawler' like Alaskan or similarand our first design was more retro : wide body( like one old 21 m woden boat saw in England),front of whzzlhouse vertical like the big circular chimney paint in 'mustard color and black topped ...
We are not particulary proud of Long cours 62 because of our mistakes !
But for the main dimension this two photos will explain better than my poor english :
http://long-cours.62.over-blog.com/photo-1917001-26-07-2011-19-03-28_JPG.html
http://long-cours.62.over-blog.com/photo-1917001-26-07-2011-19-03-28_JPG.html
And also in the design (if you are not rich !) you must thinking : this curve will be costly in man/hour, witch 'compromis' I can find for get acceptable look (for us of course !) and cost for made it.
And finaly the look of Longcours is not perfect but the cost of the boat is 1/4 of boat in same material and same potential of cruise.
But as we wrotte before we stopt advertizing 8 years ago.
Just if we sold our actual boat we will going back to shipyards for the nexts one, if you have some news ideas they are wellcome

Jacqueline Yannick and the mascot Dryade
and again sorry for my english :D

[daiquiri]

I'll be very honest... I like the underwater part of your boat and wouldn't change it too much. But the top sides, the superstructure and the interior design appear very outdated and have to be addressed with much more care in your next boat, if your goal is to build and sell them to the public. Your Longcours indeed recalls the looks of some post-WWII patrol boats, which is definitely not a feature which sells outside of a very, very restricted group of nostalgic oldtimer-lovers.

I understand what you're saying about sea-worthiness and that is, of course, a must. But the very first impact a potential buyer has with a new boat is visual and tactile. I have experience with boatshows, have taken part of them as expositor, and I can assure that 90% of visitors' comments and questions are styling-related. They would walk around the boat, look at the construction details, materials used, level and quality of finishings, the feeling (mostly emotional) behind the helm. The technical issues were of secondary importance.

A non-professional (means: leisure-oriented) boat-owner wants to be identified with his boat, wants to proudly show it around and to be seen on board. Captains or skippers, unfortunately, seldom take part in the choice of the boat, as far as I could witness. So, while you have to take good advices from the captains in order to create a good practical and seaworthy boat, you also have to put a lots of work into exterior and interior styling in order to win the heart of the buyer.

This is the era of design (styling), people are nowadays used to see sexy-looking cars, buildings and appliances all around, so you can't dismiss anymore the visual aspect of the product design if you want to sell.

Cheers

[Tanton]

Ugly boat.

[longcours62]

Your answer is a typical French answer !
May be you can develope ?Personaly I don't find a big difference with your drawing. Exept our boat is lower,less angles on the roof and no flying bridge, and no paint.may be could you explain to a no/designer?
May be we will keept the name for the next one !?
http://www.westlawn.edu/news/PassageMakerCompetitionResults_files/image005.jpg

[Tanton]

Well. Something in common is the lack of commercial success. Despite the fact the 32 footer is an Award Winning Design.
Look, is in the beholder, but I think that J-V missed on that one, compared to some of their other designs.
I admire most the one built by Ocea.

[bernd1972]

Well, Longcours62, I believe the issue with your concept is that it really lacks some appealing styling. It´s certainly perfect for it´s purpose and there are very few powercruisers in that size range that are capable of doing the french canals. However, your design is very reasonable from the engineering point of view. But it strongly reminds me of a river police vessel from the 1950s, but without some nice curves to superstructures.
If you tend to go retro you should at least pronounce that retro-aspect consequently.

[bertho]

gents,
I think we all agree about the to much "pure"efficiency about this boat, but only regarding building cost and operation. but if you want to seduce any other than a " basic puriste" they are very rare.. a boat need have a little sexy or seducing look !, is not and engineering mistake, just a marketing problem, probably some more $$ on the topside design will change all .. so.. do a boat like this one for yourself, you will be happy and right, but don't expect to much doing any commercial business with... just my point of view.
it's probably and good and efficient hull shape
anyway, enjoy cruising ! you are somewhere right !
kenavo
bertho
i don't apologize anymore for my frenchglish.. :-) !

www.fusionschooner.blogspot.com

[longcours62]

Thanks for your answers and we are enjoying cruising with our 'mistic boat'( as they wroote in Norvegian newspaper!!)
It is good to know we are not 100% wrong !
But just some interogation because you said 'more curves' and better 'topside drawing' (you are true both !!) but take a look at the photos below : less curves ,no 'sexy design ' of the topsides and ... they find customers !!
We know the look is too near the 'merchand ships' look, our very first design was very near the 1920 era designs : double ender,big vertical funnel, vertical wheelhouse and wide boody (I copy a 70' wooden boat built in 1930) but my wife wanted more curves and she said : "you are too old for playing at Tintin or Cpt Hadhock ":phttp://i.pbase.com/g6/83/462483/2/84032730.Zb8SXnF4.jpg
http://dieselducks.com/44%20Duck%20new%20photos/Destiny%2C%20Jurgen%27s%20old%2044-1.jpg


And We still apolozige for our english !!:(

[bernd1972]

I believe to understand your boat´s concept quiter well. That´s what I built. And if you make it to the north of Germany you should contact me and come over for a few glasses of wine and some talk about boats. http://www.my-marlin.de

[cyclops2]

I took my wife to several 2002 boatshows. Told her pick anything you like that does not exceed 19' overall length.
She LOVES old woodies to ride in.

She fell in love with a Chaparral 186 SSI. It is 18 1/2' long X 8' wide.

Why did she pick it ???????????

It was only avaible in white with black trim....had fantasticly comfortable chairs with flip up bolsters.... the full width rear seat.....full width & depth of the stern, sun deck in white material... Most important ..Cut pile snap in & out carpet sections....


NO WAY would I have picked a boat based on her standards, for her.
She REALLY would have been suprised if I tried to suprise her.

To pick the features in a boat that a NON boating person wants............Is totally impossible for experienced boat companies.........You are too biased.

The NEW inexperienced buyers are all over the place in their standards.

Good luck.

This is a first hand observation of NON BOATING buyers.

[masalai]

longcours62
It all depends on your market research... Cyclops seems to have nailed it - as to whom you should market... Sell to the ladies and push that they should be more proactive in their needs and requirements... and a good builder will cater for that.........

Go for an international trip to regions where you feel there is potential sales... What do you see?

The small trailerable "tinnies", as we call 4m to 7m aluminium power boats, get used often and are to be found up rivers and creeks catching fish and crabs, with the occasional fair weather trip a bit offshore looking for the bigger fish

Most larger boats 8M and up may, "look-good", have a cruising range of 200 or so miles, guzzle fuel and are no good for long passages where marinas are not spaced every 50 to 100 miles... - - In Australia, these boats are to be found in marinas, absolutely FULL of "Show-pieces", - that would be used maybe for 2 weeks in a year and the owner full of regret, confusion and longing...

I like your style better - but I am not a buyer... I built my own... http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-building/my-little-piece-peace-25962.html and as I am feeling the limitations of my age, my sense of adventure is diminishing, am hamstrung by an ANTI-boat partner, - - - I am really confused and at a loss... as I like long distance travel / exploration and the live-aboard cruising lifestyle...

[cyclops2]

With todays Wall Street & National Banking crooks running the country into the ground.

There IS ONLY the super rich out there DEMANDING you build at a price that puts you out of bussiness.

I am 73. So I to have lost the uncontrollable urge to impress my self with a boat, Corvette, vacation house.

Not only is the poor & reduced middle class being robbed on all purchases. But the rich & very rich have been robbed by Wall Street also. When they lose their money, NO ONE takes them in sociallly.

If you can figure out what to build. Fantastic. I sure as Hell could not pick out a new design in a smaller company.

Custom DESIGNED to my specifications.... is all that would interest me with the current forcast for the next several years.

Washington extortionists are going to become more crooked as money becomes more scarce around the world. Political fund rasing is almost totally done on the Futures & Commodities ripoff market.
Deregulation really means, DECRIMINALIZING PRICE FIXING on a world wide level.

If employees tried to change wages like the USA congress allows Wall street to do, they would be arrested for trying to over throw the country.

How the Devil can anyone pick a design in that scenerio.

Good luck in a VERY tough time. My best to all in a VERY enjoyable bussiness over my lifetime.

Rich

[longcours62]

Thanks for your support ,but we already became more realistics : we stop trying to built sister ship AND we stop buying (French) shares ...We already lost on both !!!:mad:
But if you see somewhere our strange boat come on board we still have some French wine and Cognac on board :)

[bertho]

longcours,
how many miles did you log already with your boat ?
as per your experience now, I you have to "do it again " what will be the improvement you will suggest for a similar long range / economical motorboat (not talking about aesthetic of point view ) but size/speed/capacity/and so ..

witch part of the world are you now ? (just curious, not for the cognac !! :-) ! )
cheer's
bertho

[longcours62]

We had note a lot of improvements from the small details (remote control of engine 15 cm nearest the center line ) to 'big' change like engine room aft.
When we make the design of arrangement we are thinking friends or family will come on board and we want 2 forwards cabin and great 'deck salon'.
With the engine room aft we lost near 4 m of arrangements but keep the noise of propulsion train far aft and it is a real walk in engine room.!(but in another hand not too much aft for trying to keep propellers in the water in bad conditions.)
In this case the topsides will be shortened for just one wheelhouse with small 'salon'(in another hand the salon and kitchen have not external view and became smaller...always compromise; and the volume of topside decrease from 36m3 to 26 m3 in case of capsize it could be more difficult to recover the right position...).
In this new configuration you save weight on the roof and lowered all the weight of kitchen and salon you can save on the ballast to (for a 19,99 m oal we could stay at around 29 T).
We are thinking to have tunnels for propellers for keep the maximum draft egal at the hull draft in this case need two rudders (more exposed to hit wood,ice or wreck).
And maybe more beam at the transom (but maybe we will lost in efficiency ?)
I will try to scan the 'next project' (if we sold this one! )and joint .
The 'main' problem with our actual boat it is his 'too high' stability and the roll period : 2,6 sec (without mast sail and rigging)
but it is difficult to have a great stability curve and small stability .
Actually we are staying for one year in Germany for year ,normally next year we will heading north .
Or if we sold her go back to Vietnam for built the next one (France is definitely too expensive for us).

[longcours62]

http://idata.over-blog.com/4/56/46/39/structures-et-cotes/19-90x4-98x1.JPG (http://idata.over-blog.com/4/56/46/39/structures-et-cotes/19-90x4-98x1.JPG)
As you can see very similar design exept the beamier transom, the tunnels and 'redan'at the water line
19,902m loa,19,20 pp, beam 4,98 m, draft 1 m

[longcours62]

I will try to give a more complete answer to your question .

For work with the boat (charter) we already make a design at 20,80 exactly same (ugly!?) profile with 4 cabins an 2 toilettes forward .

But for personal use what we will change ?

In the hull drawing :
- boat loa lengthened to just under 20 m : 19,902 m
- longer waterline : 19,20 m
- tunnels for propellers
- may be 2 rudders (if we can’t keep one )
- ‘redan’ at the waterline in the hope to damp the roll quicker
- the transom little more beamy (if not too much bad effects on the wake)
- keep the maximum draft(propellers and ruder) at the hull draft around 1 meter

In the deck design :
- just a short roof of 4,85 m (actually 8,20 m )for wheelhouse/small deck saloon
the wheel became very near to the motion center and also the lateral center of windage (I am not sure it is the right terms!!?) become near the lateral center of the under water area.
- bigger aft windlass for aft anchor
- the first steep a the transom near the waterline
May be don’t keep the daggers boards (it will save 800kg) but more drift or more angle of the rudder when take the wind by side .

In engine room :
-smaller engines the same (Perkins 6 cylinders) but atmo 130 cv will be largely enough (and save $$).
- engine room aft, less noisy, real walk-in , ( engine room behind 3 bulkhead but lost 3m in arrangements’ )
- workshop between engine room and aft cabin toilets, can fit here equipments sensible to hot (water maker, batteries, inverter) and let in engine room just engines, water heater and heater(like Kabola)
- may be biggers days tanks around 2 x 250 lt
- engine with dry exhaust and cooling by ‘hull tanks’ ( no more trouble with plastic, ice, leaves …etc)
- in case of damage of the seal on sterntube (oil lubrificated) , one grease pump ready to use .
- diesel tanks of 7500 lt it’s too much for cross an ocean ,but it’s good for refueling at the best cost …

In the boat :
- double glazing everywhere
- ticker insulation (actually average 8 cm + ’multilayer !?) may be spray 12 cm of polyurethane foam on all the hull (may be in case off flooding the top of the wheelhouse could stay above the sea level …)
- spray paint with cork on all ‘visible alloy part like potholes ,hatches …
we could save :
- 850 kg in the arrangements
- 200 kg in the roof
- 1800 kg remove from the ballast (all the weight of the kitchen/deck saloon, floor, cupboard, etc lowered by 0,870 m ), ( diesels thanks all under water line)
- 630 kg less if no daggers boards with her ‘box’.
Finally we could have one boat fully loaded for around 29 T and a D/L of 114.
if not too much drag with propeller’s tunnels, beamier transom and the ’new’ chine near water line the boat could keep a good ‘fuel efficiency’.

May be (little) smaller and lighter boats like the nice Tad Robert 56 could make the same passages . But just the weight of our (strong) hull is 11600 kg and we don’t know built light, and just the weight of our (empty !?) bottles …

[bernd1972]

High initial stability is an issue typical for this type of boat, it´s strong and reliable as hell, but tends to roll "a little" in a beam sea. And with 20m x 3,9m, 1m draft and 18tons I know very well what you mean with that short rolling period. My boat does not care about waves of 1m (cuts through them like a bullet), but these tiny swells in port can become annoying from time to time...
And if you come to the baltic sea through the Kiel canal let me know. And plan a day in Laboe, at the east shore of the Kiel Fjord. ;-)

[sabahcat]

Or if we sold her go back to Vietnam for built the next one Where in Vietnam and what issues did you have moving the boat around in their waters?

[longcours62]

We lived 3 years (February 1991 to August 1993 ) in Haï Phong.
We built a motor sailor (Oaristys 18,20 loa 17,40 at deck, 5,20, draft 1,50/3,60m) in Song Cam shipyard.
And of course if we sold our actual boat we will going back to Haï Phong , not necessary in the same shipyard .
In 1993 we got permit for make charter in Ha Long bay with our motor sailor but my wife said : no more Vietnam (and I never know where is the problem : climate,rats,foods or ...Vietnamese womens !)

[FAST FRED]

The photo of the French boat running a very tight tunnel will easily explain much of the design.

The dockside bunch will much prefer a Bloat Boat , another 3 story Room-maran, but this boat seems useful for cruising Euro land .

Wonder if the scantlings would hold up offshore?

FF

[longcours62]

For scantlings I have fews translations (I don't know this worb)
but if it mean "echantillonage" we are just 280 % of the CE regulations for some and at less double (200%)of the CE regulations for another (thickness,stiffeness,'rigidity' ).Sure if we have just the CE we could save a lot of weight on the hull , actualy net weight of alloy in the hull 11.500 kg.
Sure it could be less !

[longcours62]

Under I give two sample of the ISO and the real thickness on board ,
not exactly 200% but not far , first thickness 12 mm from wl to the bottom and second thickness 16 mm the 'flat bottom'.

Epaisseur Epaisseur minimale
t tMIN
mm mm
5.769 4.589
Facteurs de comparaison (Valeurs reelles/Valeurs ISO)
Facteur d'Epaisseur
2.08
Conforme


Thickness calculated for ISO 5,769 mm (mini 4,589 mm )
Thickness of this panel 12 mm

Epaisseur requise par la norme
Epaisseur Epaisseur minimale
t tMIN
mm mm
8.608 4.768


Facteurs de comparaison (Valeurs reelles/Valeurs ISO)
Facteur d'epaisseur
1.858
Conforme


Thickness calculated for ISO 8,608 mm (mini 4,768 mm)
Thickness of this panel 16 mm

[FAST FRED]

"Washington extortionists are going to become more crooked as money becomes more scarce around the world."

They still have the Federal Reserve (private banksters) that simply write and clear their own checks creating bogus inflation money.

A boat that does not need a dock for months on end , with 3mpg would be reasonable.

Bladder tankage , so either fuel or water could be carried would give most versatility.

FF

[PRB]

longcours62, I like your boat, I'll be checking your blog… pity it is in french but I’ll do my best. I could be interested in a boat like that but I am still only beginning to understand boating.

[longcours62]

thanks for your remarks I fill less stupid and lonely (or solitary ? )sorry for my en English it is the main raison for let my blog just in French : we are not able to translate it in a correct English !!:mad:

[taniwha]

I believe to understand your boat´s concept quiter well. That´s what I built. And if you make it to the north of Germany you should contact me and come over for a few glasses of wine and some talk about boats. http://www.my-marlin.de

Maybe we should start our own forum
www.passagemaker.co.za

[taniwha]

longcours62 I refuse to believe there is no market for a boat like yours or mine. There is just no market for boats at all at this time. The concept of traveling long distance would be attractive for many people if they knew more about it. At this time they are just people like you and me, Dashew etc and as Tad said we do not have the proper PR machine and/or marketing plan. Maybe we should join force L'union fait la force! Just on our own we will not make it but if a few of us join together we might reach more public.

www.passagemaker.co.za
Tad Roberts 48

[michael pierzga]

Market forces .

In the Mediterranean dockage is expensive with ever more regulations. . Yachts have morphed into tall square boxs the size of a marina berth. A modern 24 meter will be 24meters long, 8 meters beam, slab sided and three decks tall.

The situation will even get worse. In Italy they now have a punitive tax based on LOA. The new generation will be less that 24 loa and very tall , like skyscrapers. I wouldn't be surprise to see 24m square bow craft.

[daiquiri]

The situation will even get worse. In Italy they now have a punitive tax based on LOA. The new generation will be less that 24 loa and very tall , like skyscrapers. I wouldn't be surprise to see 24m square bow craft.
Italy as a boating market is imho doomed to become nonexistent, and as such it will not have a sufficiently big economical lever to encourage builders to generate new ship forms. I don't think yachts will morph into skyscrapers, there will simply be no more yachts as we know them (separate day and night living spaces etc). There will be just boats for day-trips, preferably under 10 m LOA.

For those who don't know what me and Michael Pierzga are talking about, there is a new tax in Italy, applicable to every boat on Italian territory - be it in water or at the dry dock: http://www.romefile.com/information/italian-boat-tax.php

Furthermore, there is a massive anti-tax-evasion action being currently exercised by the Guardia di Finanza (Italian financial police - the equivalent of american IRS), and they are employing every mean available. For example, every day I see luxury cars and SUVs being pulled over by the police and documents checked and notified to the Guardia di Finanza. They then check every bit of the financial history of the car owner, in search of a possible tax evasion. They do it with cars, imagine what happens if one owns a boat...

While it is a perfectly legitimate action from the economical and moral point of view (there is a huge grey economy in Italy), it imho also creates a strong action against a boat ownership - de facto extinguishing the Italian boating industry. Time will tell how much was lost and how much gained by this action.

[Tad]

While there is no current market for existing boats or typical production boats which are identical to designs (fat and high) offered for the past 30 years.......There is a tiny market for new thinking, Greenline low-price light-displacement hulls, powercats, and I think Dashew is on hulls 6-7 of his 62' series. I've been talking with a builder in Dalian China who would like to build aluminum PL's to a budget.......another possibility but still requiring effort to develop a community of possible owner's......

[longcours62]

You are right ! More and more volume for the same loa .
But when we start the long-cours 62 project near 18 years ago ( my God!! we are old now!!!) the marinas problems was not the same and also we make this type of boat for people who don't want stay in marina.
It why we choose flat bottom, small draft and two strong protection for the propellers with that you can stay on some rivers, beach on some well protected areas .
If one day we built a second long-cours 62 we even try to minimize the draft of ruders and propeller at the same draft than the hull by using twin rudders and tunnels for propellers .In this case we need no more than 1,05 cm of fresh or salt water.
But you are right the taxes for exemple in Italy (but also in France for annual taxe) will more 'right' (sorry I don't find the good worb ) if they are based on the volume and not on the oal.

[michael pierzga]

Italy as a boating market is imho doomed to become nonexistent, and as such it will not have a sufficiently big economical lever to encourage builders to generate new ship forms. I don't think yachts will morph into skyscrapers, there will simply be no more yachts as we know them (separate day and night living spaces etc). There will be just boats for day-trips, preferably under 10 m LOA.

For those who don't know what me and Michael Pierzga are talking about, there is a new tax in Italy, applicable to every boat on Italian territory - be it in water or at the dry dock: http://www.romefile.com/information/italian-boat-tax.php

Furthermore, there is a massive anti-tax-evasion action being currently exercised by the Guardia di Finanza (Italian financial police - the equivalent of american IRS), and they are employing every mean available. For example, every day I see luxury cars and SUVs being pulled over by the police and documents checked and notified to the Guardia di Finanza. They then check every bit of the financial history of the car owner, in search of a possible tax evasion. They do it with cars, imagine what happens if one owns a boat...

While it is a perfectly legitimate action from the economical and moral point of view (there is a huge grey economy in Italy), it imho also creates a strong action against a boat ownership - de facto extinguishing the Italian boating industry. Time will tell how much was lost and how much gained by this action.

Yah...Ive been warned about moving non EU, customs bonded yachts thru Italy.

Italy obviously needs money but its a shame that the new tax is so dramatic..in your face. I would have prefered they taxed on a power to weight ratio, create a market for effecincy and give Italian shipyards a advantage with environmentaly friendly modern motor yachts.

[PRB]

Longcourse, fortunately I can read french sufficiently well so no problem. What I like about your boat is your no-nonsense attitude, but I too agree that style wise it might not be a head turner, but that is not what I am looking for. If you care, I am discussing my cheap dream boat on the "Displacement hull fishing boat?" thread. I would like to have your opinion.

[longcours62]

While there is no current market for existing boats or typical production boats which are identical to designs (fat and high) offered for the past 30 years.......There is a tiny market for new thinking, Greenline low-price light-displacement hulls, powercats, and I think Dashew is on hulls 6-7 of his 62' series. I've been talking with a builder in Dalian China who would like to build aluminum PL's to a budget.......another possibility but still requiring effort to develop a community of possible owner's......

We know a shipyard in Haï Phong who built alloy boats since 1997 from the small 9 m with 150 hp cummins (50 similar model) to the 34 m coast guard with twin big MTU .
I living near this shipyard during 3 year and we visit this yards few time since we left Vietnam . They do a good job, at reasonable price .
I got a quotation 15 months ago for a 20,80 m hard chine hull heavily built around 12 t off alloy .
You could contact me if you want more details