How to make a name for yourself !

[Tim_Hastie]

Hello

I need some help. I have been working around boats for the past 15 years. I have been designing for around 6 years. I have drawn hundreds of boats and build many as well, some that get a great deal of press. But I have always worked under other people who do not give credit where credit is due. I am tired of making other people look good. My question to "you the people" is how do I make a name for myself ? I am sure there are many others like me that would like the advice as well.


Thanks for listening.

Tim Hastie

[Doug Lord]

Send some of your work to the design editors of the various magazines; include your work on this site if possible.
Find someone to build one of your boats and race it if it's a sailboat or take a long cruise in it if it's either power or sail.
Try to get your work talked about (reveiwed by magazine technical editors,ect).Publicize anything you may have patented.
Try to negotiate a contract that gives you fair credit for what you've done or will do.
Show your work PERSONALLY,if possible to famous sailors if its a sailboat or to famous powerboat people if not.
Good Luck! Hang in there!

[Tim_Hastie]

Thanks for the reply. Most of my work has been commercial up to about 6 months ago. I have done ribs, fireboat, high speed barges and gun boats etc. It has been an interesting change because now I am working on some trawlers for Keen Boats. Have you or anyone done commercial work as well as pleasure ? or is it uncommon to design in both areas ?

TIM

[Doug Lord]

None for me....Maybe you could submit articles to publications such as "Professional Mariner"....

[SeaDrive]

Three quarters of the designers whose names I know got into the public eye with a race winning boat. Many were aboard the boat when it won a race in spectacular fashion. (Think Olin Stephens & Dorade.) It's much harder to get a reputation as a cruising boat designer, a la William Crealock or Lyle Hess.

Some have taken the Leif Bailey approach and started their own boat-building company.

As as been suggested above, some have taken the Dave Gerr approach and written a lot. I agree that this may be your best strategy. Given the kind of boats you have worked on, you may be able to earn a name in the industry, but I think the public is unlikely to be interested. A web site can't hurt. Articles that debunk an accepted notion with fresh thinking are always popular.

I think that identification with a specialty would be a help. It's easier to imagine getting to be 'the best rib man" or "the best gulf shrimper man" than to establish an overall excellence.

[Tim_Hastie]

Thank you for the help. I do have another question for you guys. Where is the good money and potential in designing ? industrial...pleasure, raceing, metal, wood. I know it is a really open question but I have been working in a small town that has a very limited boat building base. One big company and a few small. Most of the small companies want a designer but can't afford one. And all the big ones have a good designer that has no hope of retiring any time soon. And not to many people want to talk money or numbers. Is there any area in your opion that would benifit from new and creative designs ?

[Doug Lord]

Thats what you want to do"break in"- wonder why it's called that? Probably because it is a real bitch to do: you not only have to be great at what you do and creative but you have to be relentless in promoting yourself. EVERY area of marine design can use fresh thinking! But you have got to devise a method of showing that you have what it takes. You might have to find a way to go it alone by taking one of your great ideas and selling it to some friends and maybe bankers and then building it yourself. Or publish your own book of great ideas done in a unique fashion.
Doing what you want to do will test you to your limits but could be very,very rewarding!

[Tim_Hastie]

Thats what you want to do"break in"- wonder why it's called that? Probably because it is a real bitch to do: you not only have to be great at what you do and creative but you have to be relentless in promoting yourself. EVERY area of marine design can use fresh thinking! But you have got to devise a method of showing that you have what it takes. You might have to find a way to go it alone by taking one of your great ideas and selling it to some friends and maybe bankers and then building it yourself. Or publish your own book of great ideas done in a unique fashion.
Doing what you want to do will test you to your limits but could be very,very rewarding!


Thanks for the reply. I will try to get some stuff that I am currently working in to a few mags. The good thing about where I work now is that I get to build what I draw. I will try to post some pics soon to get peoples opions.

[SailDesign]

"Breaking in" is a b!tch. Draw stuff you like, and then try it out on people you talk to. My first "solo" design was a 24'6" centreboard camper/sport boat. It started as a 21-foot open sport boat (Johnson 18-style), was sent to places like the Rockport ApprenticeShop (as it then was), who showed it some folks, and one came back and said "I like it, but can you do it with 3 extra feet and a cabin?" "Yup! Uh-HUH! Sure..." No problem - cut the fee to ensure the contract, design, get built (by the RAS, of course) and there's your first boat in the water. A happy owner, with friends, can be a powerful tool.
Alternatively, you could go to work for an established designer, then leave after a few years, with a good network of contacts and owners (no to mention experience!), and start chipping away. Poaching is generally frowned on, but sometimes the owner will ask for you specifically. Contacts are everything.

Steve

[Tim_Hastie]

Does any one know any good design firms that like to take on new help. How do most of you do business ? face to face....over internet...through the company you work for. Currently I work for a company and I try to use it to get most of my ideas across. But mainly they just pimp me out to make a fast buck. For example I was awarded a design contract to modify a costumers desgin (GA) and do a lines plan, structural section weight survey , hydrostaics and all that cool stuff. I have built a good relation ship with the fellow and he wants me to build the boat for him....but the company I work for is giving the job to someone else.....and taking a cut off the top. It frustrates me because someone else is going to change my work and put their name on it because they don't want me as the project manager.

[SailDesign]

But mainly they just pimp me out to make a fast buck.

Dude, that si why you work for them, not the other way around :)

For example I was awarded a design contract to modify a...

Correction - your company was awarded the contract, not you. You were hired to do what _they_ want. That's why they pay you.

It frustrates me because someone else is going to change my work and put their name on it...

Welcome to The Real World (tm). We all have stories of great designs that were "ruined" because "the boss" had other ideas. That's his privilege, he pays the freight. You wouldn't expect to walk into McDonald's for a burger and leave with something else because that's what they wanted to give you, would you? Well, of course not - you paid for it.
In just the same way, your boss is paying you to do what HE wants. Sometimes he'll let you do enough of your own thing that you can say "That was mine", and sometimes he'll even let you say so in public; but while he's paying, he calls the shots and is legally entitled to say it is his stuff, because he bought it.

Steve

[Willallison]

......but while he's paying, he calls the shots and is legally entitled to say it is his stuff, because he bought it.

Steve's right - And that's the way it should be too - for if you stuffed something up, it'll be his name, not yours that suffers. "The Boss" may accept the kudos, but it's also his name on the chopping block when things hit the fan.....

[Tim_Hastie]

Thanks for the info guys. I guess I shouldn't be that frustrated when you look at how many of my ideas have been built...even though someone elses name is on them. Atleast I can show people some of the projects I have designed under.

Thanks for the input

Tim

[SailDesign]

I guess I shouldn't be that frustrated when you look at how many of my ideas have been built...even though someone elses name is on them. Atleast I can show people some of the projects I have designed under.

That is the important thing. Get your work known, however it can, and build from there. :)

Let us know how things progress.

Steve

[SeaDrive]

I read a quote from Olin Stephens that he did very little drawing board work after the 1930's. Think of all the S&S designs attributed to him after that! The "drawing board work" was done by others (many of whom became well known in the industry) but surely the overall influence of Stephens was very strong. You need to be honest with yourself about how much "your" designs were influenced by others who made critical design decisions, specifying the design before it reached your desk.

Money is in selling a product, not a service. Especially not a service like boat design that catches many people's imaginations.

[Tim_Hastie]

Don't get me wrong I have a lot of pride in the stuff I have done and yes there has been many influnces in my career so far. I always say that its all about the cool factor. I have a cool job.....that I love to do.

which is more than a lot of people I know who can barely pay the bills at a job they hate.

If I start designing outside of my current work. What is a common price to sell a design for......I know the cost of doing the drawings but what is a common commision percent. or out right sale of a design? Keeping in mind that my first few will be really cheap.

Tim

[SailDesign]

The best guide is ther market. If you name a price and eyes roll, then lower it. My first design sold for $7,000, which was about half of what I thought it should be, but it was cash, and it was a built boat.
I have "sold" designs for 10 times that, but it was a complex design, on an hourly basis, with an owner I had known for years. As it was, it worked out at less than 10% of the building costs (a good guideline) so all were happy.
Some designers will charge by the drawing, some by the hour, and some (who have more work than thy need) can charge by the percentage of building costs if it is with a custom builder.
I usually work for 25-30 bucks per hour, but have been up as high as 50 for some jobs. I also spend a lot of time in the backyard with the dogs waiting for work :)

Steve

[CDBarry]

Actually the money is in expert witness work. Billing rates run between $120-$200 / hour.

[Tim_Hastie]

Expert witness ? what is that

[CDBarry]

Testifying in court regarding lawsuits about bad boats, accidents, shipyard contract disputes, etc.

[Tim_Hastie]

The best guide is ther market. If you name a price and eyes roll, then lower it. My first design sold for $7,000, which was about half of what I thought it should be, but it was cash, and it was a built boat.
I have "sold" designs for 10 times that, but it was a complex design, on an hourly basis, with an owner I had known for years. As it was, it worked out at less than 10% of the building costs (a good guideline) so all were happy.
Some designers will charge by the drawing, some by the hour, and some (who have more work than thy need) can charge by the percentage of building costs if it is with a custom builder.
I usually work for 25-30 bucks per hour, but have been up as high as 50 for some jobs. I also spend a lot of time in the backyard with the dogs waiting for work :)

Steve


Thanks for the info Steve. I would love to spend timne in the back yard but I don't have enough time. working to pay the bills designing, building and a million other projects. I am also trying to start a business of converting older blue prints into working CAD files that they can be more easily modified (lengthened ect. )or used to creat cnc files and such...do you think it has potential guys ?

[Tim_Hastie]

Testifying in court regarding lawsuits about bad boats, accidents, shipyard contract disputes, etc.


Do you need to have a p-eng for that...or just a good track record ? the money sounds good but how are the hours ? is somethiong like that good enough to be a primary source of income or just a means of financing the boat designs?

thanks for the input

TIM

[CDBarry]

Being a peng (uin) is nice but not required. It is at least a good supplement, and some guys do it full time, exclusively, since there are a lot more problem boats than you hear about.

[Tim_Hastie]

Sounds interesting. Sound s a lot like surveyor kind of work. Unfortunatley there is not a huge amount of boat yards around here. How would you find such a job?

[MarkC]

A court-certified boat engineer/inspector? - you might want to read Eric Sponberg's web site about his experiences with this work. As he says, this work is not for the faint-hearted!

Why dont you start your own business?

Choose one of your designs - get your business plan knocked up - speak to your accountant - go to the state and ask if there is any new business/young business funding help (like cheap loans, insurance, cash grants etc.) - build a shed big enough to build the design in - hire one or two people (welder etc) again, work-training schemes can offer cash for unemployed or apprentices - have a boat surveyor check on construction for half an hour twice a week - get your web site up - tow the boat to the boat shows on the weekends

You may even be able to keep your current design-job going if you sort it with your boss - if you choose a design that he/she is not interested in.

The hardest part will be choosing the design!

See - that easy! :) :rolleyes: :p ;)

[CDBarry]

Look on the web for "forensic engineering"

[Tim_Hastie]

Thanks for the info.

Tim

Do most of you work for yourself or do most of you design on the side as well as work for a boat builder ?

[SailDesign]

Do most of you work for yourself or do most of you design on the side as well as work for a boat builder ?

3 days/week for Tanton, 2-4 for me, when I have the work. Otherwise it's the "honey-do" list or scrounging for more work. Nothing is too small, nor should it be. Anything that pays is well received, even $10 per hour is to be preferred to nothing :)

Steve

[Sean Herron]

Hello,

May I just open by saying that I am pissed, and not pissed off, though I just did a 7 hour call out at the moment I was about to share soimething 'mutual' (is that PC enough) with my wife - OK - they own me - perhaps I can do something about that too - this leading to a personal response to your question...

Fact is 'kid' - and I think it has read prior to mine - THEY OWN YOU - they have bought you (but that should be encouragement towards your talent) - they have not pimped YOU - YOU have pimped yourself to them - and that is the way of things for any new kid on the block - VERY arrogant to think otherwise - you should be thanking these 'bastards' for giving you a chance to forward your work - YESSUMS - YES...

There is nothing illegal about you saying 'while working for such and such - or under the tutelage (sp) of such and such, I DID such and such' - give credit to both yourself and the office that GAVE and PAID you for a hand up - keep and document your original work - agree with your employer to allow it into your personal portfolio - if he/she says NO - tell 'em to piss off and slack their office any way possible - short of personal scandal - if they are not in the business to further it, well punt 'em...

But do NOT assume yourself better than someone or a group of same that has worked their balls to sweat to establish a name for themselves in a very old and very established business with very few credible newcomer marvels...

SH